Mendacity Alert #1

[Dan Clark]

This is Mendacity Alert #1 - The first review exposing a blatently positive review of a very poor product.

If you are like me, you are frustrated with the lack of quality competitive information about tools. There are lots of sites around that review tools and essentially say, "the XYZ tool is the greatest thing since sliced bread!"

Frankly after a while it gets to be a bit much and you start realizing that you are reading company advertising that's just written by someone else - a review that is total MENDACITY!

This has been bothering me for a while, but it reached a peak today when I bought three Bosch RapidFeed spade bits based on a fairly well known website that reviews tools. (Google "Bosch+RapidFeed+Spade+Bits+review.") The review raved about how good they were and how well the serated "RapidFeed" bit pulled the bit through the wood!

Since I needed to replace my old bits, I was very interested to see how well they worked. So I did a quick comparison of the new 3/4" Bosch spade bit with my well used 3/4" Irwin "Speedbor" bit. I cut several hols in several types of wood including 2X first lumber and 3/4" plywood. The Bosch bit should have devastated the Irwin bit easily because the Irwin bit was not only well-used, the cutting tips were damaged from hitting nails!

The actual result - the Bosch spade bit took at least twice as much pressure and vibrated twice as much as my old Irwin bits. The Bosch was VERY slow cutting holes and cut quality was abysmal. My old, damaged, DULL Irwin bits were MUCH better than the Bosch bits!

When I looked closely at the Bosch bit I could see that it had poor castings and the only part that was shiny was where the edges had been ground. And the Bosch bit ground edges were rough and uneven.

Attached are two pictures. The first is a wider shot of both bits. It may be a little difficult to see, but the Irwin bit is relatively shiny and smooth, while the Bosch bit has rough crude castings. The Bosch bit looks like it was stamped out of sheet metal.

In the second closeup pic, you can see how damaged my Irwin bit is, while the Bosch bit is obviously brand new.

One word about my biases - I have had a high regard for Bosch equipment and a low regard for Irwin products. I have a Bosch 4410L miter saw and believe it's the best out there. On the other hand, I will take Jorgensen clamps any day over Irwin clamps. In other words, I'll buy Irwin only as a last resort. But...

My opinion of Bosch just took a nose dive (and my Irwin opinion has gone up a bit). These Bosch spade bits are horrible, IMO. Please consider carefully before buying them.

The Irwin bits have worked OK for me, but I'm pretty sure better bits exist. If you have any recommendations, please speak up.

And please be very careful when reading these "reviews". It's bad enough when reviews overemphasize a product's good points and gloss over a product's bad ones. But when they completely misrepresent a very poor product, that's stepping way over the line.

I hope others will post "Mendacity Alerts" too. Given the poor quality of reviews, we need to protect each other.

Regards,

Dan.

[Wes Bischel]

Dan,
I've used VA Woodeater bits for boring when I built my garage and during house remodeling. Easy to use, easy on the arm etc. Work like a charm.

http://www.vermontamerican.com/Products/productdetail.htm?G=191083&GRP=191083&I=71473

Thanks for the review.

Wes

[Mike Henderson]

I did a Google search as you suggested and Amazon came up high in the search results. I'm not sure if that's the place you went to for the reviews you mention. I checked Amazon and there were two reviews for the bits, both of them very positive.

I've noticed that many products on Amazon seem to have shill reviews as the first few reviews - especially books (maybe the author gets his/her friends to post reviews). For tools, I don't know if the company pays for the reviews or if it's just a case of the reviewers trying to get their review count up.

But other than those early reviews, I've found Amazon reviews to be a pretty good indication of the quality of a product. If there's twenty reviews and 80% say the product is great (or garbage) the product usually is.

If it was Amazon where you found those reviews, I don't see anything wrong with you stating that fact.

Mike

[Dan Clark]

Mike,

Amazon is known for shill reviews; but I wasn't referring to them.

I had hoped that "reputable" review sites would have a little more honesty and credibility. Apparantly it's not so. :(

I use the spade bits for utility drilling big holes. I may try the Lee Valley spade bits, although they look exactly like the Irwins. Any suggestions for good spade bits?

Regards,

Dan.

[Loren Hedahl]

After my dad died (he had been a tool maker and machinest) I ended up with his tool box. Interestingly most of his tools were what most would call junk quality and almost all were modified.

His spade bits were a motley bunch, some short, most having been rusty, some long, none new, several non-descript brands -- you get the picture. But every one of them, so far, cuts like a dream. So I would believe a few minutes with a file, getting the cuttings edge heights even and at the correct angle would be the best approach at this time.

However, I am also disappointed at having to 'remanufacture' so many things. After I replaced an old 12 inch Sears bandsaw with a new Delta 14, the Sears ended up relegated to cutting branches pruned from my fruit trees for firewood. I felt sorry for it one day and spent most of a day setting it up, filing the case where needed to get proper alignment of the guide bar, etc. Now it is a real smooth machine that I use more than the Delta.

One exception is the Festool equipment I have. It worked excellent out of the box. But I also had to pay a premium to get it.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

has just such a glorious review.

They have a pointed flute bosch up against the cheapest flat grind tang imaginable.

Honestly though, I'd not use flat spade bits for anything but carpentry - rough carpentry at that.
They always make a hash of things unless you are willing to clamp sacrificial wood on both sides.

[tod evans]

like cliff says spades are for rough work......i personally won`t buy spade bits with the little spurs on `em.....i want the plain ol` flat ground ones that i can touch up with a file after hitting a nail in the 2x4........remember these are not fine cutting tools:rolleyes: .....02 tod

[Mark Pruitt]

In the second closeup pic, you can see how damaged my Irwin bit is, while the Irwin bit is obviously brand new.

Dan, is this a typo? (I think you meant to say "the Bosch bit is obviously brand new.")

Thanks for the review. I have little use for spade bits and have usually found the Irwins to be acceptable. I did burn one up on some pressure treated 6x6's while drilling holes for rebar, but nothing about that surprised me. In fact, I had bought a spare bit, anticipating that that would happen.

Mark

[Frank Fusco]

Interesting review. I find it difficult to understand how a manufacturer could make a BAD spade bit. They are such a simple concept. I buy mine without regard to brand. Usually they come from a local store that sells very inexpensive pacific rim import tools. What is $5.98 at the borg is $1.19 at his store and I cannot detect a difference. I often touch up spade and brad point bits with a diamond hone. I do a lot of end grain drilling and boring in hard-hardwoods and have never felt my bit was failing me. That said, I do prefer brad points but will use whatever is on hand if I don't have the size needed at the moment.

[Gary Sostrin]

I have gone through many irwin and bosch bits while doing major contruction of my house over the past 9 years which ended last lear (luckily understanding wife). I used the bits for rewiring my house 1464 sqft to appr 2250 sqft). I found that the bosch bits subjectively in my opinion outperformed the irwin bits by a wide margin. Maybe the bits are different right now or went through a bad manufacturing process. The holes drilled much faster and stayed sharper longer. Also the bit seem to pull the drill along. My two cents and not scientific.

[Dan Clark]

I agree about spade bits and save my brad points and Forstner bits for better quality stuff.

I just want spade bits for rough carpentry like drilling holes through joists and studs. But, they need to be sharp. With spade bits I can drill larger holes through thick, tough wood with minimal effort.

Loren, I agree with you about Festools. (I assume you saw my signature.) They work very well out of the box.

There is a down side to Festools. After you start using them, your standards change. You start thinking of them as "normal" and other brands as "not normal". It's a very slippery slope! :D

Regards,

Dan.

[Steve Clardy]

Strange. Maybe you got some bad bosch bits.
I have both Irwin [a bunch of them] and two sets of Bosch.
I'd rather use the Bosch

[Dan Clark]

Bosch RapidFeed spade bits.

Steve are you referring to the Bosch RepidFeed spade bits or to other bits?

For what it's worth, it seems like there's been a general decline in tool quality as previously good-quality tool lines are offshored to countries that specialize in low cost. I.e., the companies are focusing on profit margin, not quality. :( :mad:

IMO, just because a Company has previously made a good quality product, does not mean that the new version of that product is the same quality. Better looking and more features? Yes. Better quality? Probably not.

Companies like Festool and Makita focus on quality. Many others don't. It's very sad.

Regards,

Dan.

[Steve Clardy]

I'm looking for the rapid speed on the pouch and bit.
All it says is Bosch.
6 bits in a very nice pouch. Pointed ends are threaded, self feeding.
I have two sets, one not used yet.
Purchased these about three years ago.

Same as yours?

[Dan Clark]

I'm looking for the rapid speed on the pouch and bit.
All it says is Bosch.
6 bits in a very nice pouch. Pointed ends are threaded, self feeding.
I have two sets, one not used yet.
Purchased these about three years ago.

Same as yours?

From the reviewer, I got the impression that they were pretty new. I'm going to guess that the ones I got were different.

One question... Do yours have a kind of pebbly appearance every where except where it is sharpened?

Regards,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

Mark,

Yes, that was a typo. Thanks for pointing it out. I fixed it.

Dan.

[Steve Clardy]

Pebbly. Hmmm.
Mine look like they have been glass beaded, then coated with a rust inhibitor. Dull looking gray.

[Dan Clark]

Steve,

Take a look at the first pic in my first post. Do they look like that (pebbly, but striations along the long axis)? I wonder if Bosch changed manufacturers?

FYI, I took all three (1/2, 3/4, and 1") back this morning. I'll probably get another Irwin or maybe order a set from Lee Valley.

Regards,

Dan.

[Steve Clardy]

Looked again and compared.

No. Mine are smooth. Not like your pic at all.

[Dan Clark]

Looked again and compared.

No. Mine are smooth. Not like your pic at all.

It's sad when "New and Improved" isn't! That's why the original title was "Mendacity Alert".

Dan.

[Steve Clardy]

Yes. I agree.
I think it was in the hand tool forum, someone posted a pic of a new nicholson file. Made in Mexico I think.
It looked pitiful.

Nicholson has been around since dirt was invented, and has been a good leader in that market.
But apparently they are going downhill.

[Bailey John]

http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/000346347630_4.jpgI can speak to this from recent experience: I was drilling new bench dog holes in my 2 1/4 maple wb. My old spades were worn and draining the batteries on my drills. I was fortunate to inherit large set of brad points from my dad. The 3/4"er dulled quickly. I competed about 4 of the 12 holes in 30 mins. So I went to local HD picked up the Bosch set and was done with the other 8 in less than 10 mins. The cut was so agressive with 18v Makita drill I had to be careful not to break my wrist. So in my experience, I am satisfied. Just mho.

[Dan Clark]

http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/000346347630_4.jpgI can speak to this from recent experience: I was drilling new bench dog holes in my 2 1/4 maple wb. My old spades were worn and draining the batteries on my drills. I was fortunate to inherit large set of brad points from my dad. The 3/4"er dulled quickly. I competed about 4 of the 12 holes in 30 mins. So I went to local HD picked up the Bosch set and was done with the other 8 in less than 10 mins. The cut was so agressive with 18v Makita drill I had to be careful not to break my wrist. So in my experience, I am satisfied. Just mho.

John,

Hmmm... Your bigs don't look like Bosch RapidFeed bits. Are you sure that they aren't Irwin? Or maybe another model of the Bosch bit?

Look at the center point of your drills carefully and then look at the point of my Irwin SpeedBors (pic in first post). They look exactly the same to me.

Your bits don't look the same as the Bosch RapidFeed bits.

Regards,

Dan.

[Bailey John]

Dan,I found that pic on the HD website and your right, I thought my had the same machining as your pic. The case is the same though.

I can take a pic at home tonight of the bit I used and the holes in the bench top. Nevertheless the whole set was $19.99 or someting like that and my forsteners and old bits weren't gonna get the job done.

[John Downey]

Hi Dan,

I bought a few of those last year, I agree that they seem to cut slower than my Irwins, but my real peeve is that the 1" drills a 1 1/16" hole. Yeah, yeah, I know, who expects precision from a spade bit. I use them for lock installation, and just hate seeing the edges of the hole peeking out from under the bolt plate. You wouldn't think you'd have to grind down a new tool just to make it the size it says on the packaging.

Anyway, I'll stick with the Irwins, or better yet some junk shop flatties.

John

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I have a Bosch Jig saw, and the bits I was buying for it, branded "Bosch" were very good, liked them a lot. Last time I went to Joyful Honda, they have a HUGE Bosch display area now (Bosch is one of the few non-Japanese tool makers to have had a presence in Japan for a long time) and they are really pushing Bosch. The cordless drill I bought a while back, was a Bosch 14.4v, it did not live up to the other Bosch tools I have. Anyway, the jigsaw bits I bought turned out to be crap, they did not cut well or straight, and they got dull really fast.

I noticed before that the old blades had like 6 languages on them, they were made in Germany. These new bits had English and Japanese, they are made in Malaysia.....

Next time I went back to Joyful, I searched through all of the blades they had, and I bought all the German made ones I could, cost me a few bucks, but I should not run out any time soon!

Too bad about the spade bits.

Cheers!

[Dan Clark]

I went into HD and Lowes yesterday. Those nice Irwins? They've been replaced by different drills with the same name and packaging. I didn't buy them, but they looked even cheaper! :eek:

Dan.

[Les Spencer]

Dan,

Take a look at these self feeding spade bits from Greenlee:

http://contractorschoiceinc.lohrehosting.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=219

You can click the link for a web page that gives you more info.

[glenn bradley]

Thanks Dan. This is a valuable and viable post. This isn't brand-bashing by any means. I'm sorry for your experience and a bit (no pun intended) surprised by the Bosch bits behaving badly but, thanks for sharing so the rest of us don't have to experience this for ourselve$.

I now tend to be wary of reviews unless posted by (as close as I can tell) folks that do not advertise (period) the product being reviewed or the competition. I especially am fortified if I comment on a reviewed product here and get the Creekers input. I'll take "real world" over "the lab" anytime. Often the folks who use these items like yourself will have a different view than the reviewer. Thanks!

[John Downey]

Hi Stu,

Just looked at the blades I bought last week. Both packages say made in Switzerland. A bit strange they're selling junk in your area. Some kinda tariff deal perhaps, sorry to hear it though. Seems like you ought to be able to find a quality asian equivalent.

John

[Dave Mapes]

Dan

IMO I have found most power tool makers bits and blades to be second rate and not worth the cost. I believe that is because they spend most of their money on tool development and the bits and blades for their tools are provided as a convenience. Unless the bit or blade is intended for use and discard purposes you are much better off to pay more and get good quailty products.

Because of this I would not judge the tool manufacture by the quality of their bits and blades.

Dave

[Dan Clark]

Hi. I just wanted to clarify a couple of points...

First, I'm not bothered by one instance of a poor product. I'm bothered by the trend - tool product quality is declining in general. There are few exceptions. Festool, Makita, and a few other brands have maintained or increased quality. But many brands are declining in quality - Dewalt, and Black and Decker come to mind. While not every tool or tool category that these companies make declining in quality, there's a general lowering of quality. This bothers me.

Second, I don't slam a tool company because they don't make quality bits. Many companies are outsourcing their bits. I have an older set of Makita bits that are pretty good. And my Festool bit (singular) seems pretty good. But I think I'd rather go with with some other company whose makes good quality bits.

I'm using Whiteside router bits and Freud Forstner bits. I've only just started using the Whiteside bits, but they seem very good. The Freud Forstner bits are excellent.

I guess I'm saying that we need to watch our buying habits carefully and not assume that the company that we once associated with quality is still producing quality products.

Regards,

Dan.