Festool VS. EZ Smart [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Dan Clark

10-04-2006, 1:25 AM

I looked at another thread.

It seems fairly obvious to me - it depends on whether you already own a good set of tools that you like and want to keep. If you do, then EZ seems like a relatively low-cost way of leveraging your current tools. OTOH...

If you are dissatisfied with your tools or don't have them, and don't mind the initial investment, the Festool is a great solution. You can argue that the EZ guides are better than the Festool Guides, or vice versa. But the guide is not the issue, it's the tools that you use with the guide.

Festool makes great tools and they work VERY well together as a system. Other tools may be good quality, but they don't work togher as a system. Festool circular saws, jig saws, and routers are designed to work with Festool guides, and the tools are designed for the DC, and the guides work very well with the Festool MFT multi-function tables. It's a system that is pre-integrated.

With EZ products, you are integrating NON-system products to work together as a SYSTEM. Although EZ products are quite good, the overall system is dependent on 1) the quality of the tools PLUS the guides and 2) how well your tools + EZ guides work together as a system. Even if you have a great circular saw that is better than the Festool saw, and even if the EZ guide is better than the Festool guide, the combination of your tool + EZ guide may not work together well.

Bottom line... Do you really like your tools and don't mind integrating with EZ? Yes? Buy EZ. No? Buy Festool.

Regards,

Dan.

Mark Rios

10-04-2006, 2:18 AM

This is said with respect to all who have posted.

I find the fact that there is the review to read interesting and I will quite likely buy the mag and read it (I buy it once in a while at the BORG). After all that has been hashed over regarding these two products I can't think of anything that might be further discussed about it.

From all the (appropriate) raves about the Festool, even us non-green owners can tell that it is a top quality product, especially if we've had a chance to play with them and drool over them. :D Congrats to Festool for taking the top honors.

For some, Dino's products work very, very well and they satisfy their needs completely. Congrats to Dino for his placement and position in the review. Hopefully, this will increase his sales a whole bunch.

I'm not sure that any discussion would be helpful in any way. (And Dennis is watching very closely ;) )

Thanks for the heads up on the GRSS Gary. I'll enjoy reading the review.

Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan

10-04-2006, 2:28 AM

I looked at another thread.

It seems fairly obvious to me - it depends on whether you already own a good set of tools that you like and want to keep. If you do, then EZ seems like a relatively low-cost way of leveraging your current tools. OTOH...

If you are dissatisfied with your tools or don't have them, and don't mind the initial investment, the Festool is a great solution. You can argue that the EZ guides are better than the Festool Guides, or vice versa. But the guide is not the issue, it's the tools that you use with the guide.

Festool makes great tools and they work VERY well together as a system. Other tools may be good quality, but they don't work together as a system. Festool circular saws, jig saws, and routers are designed to work with Festool guides, and the tools are designed for the DC, and the guides work very well with the Festool MFT multi-function tables. It's a system that is pre-integrated.

With EZ products, you are integrating NON-system products to work together as a SYSTEM. Although EZ products are quite good, the overall system is dependent on 1) the quality of the tools PLUS the guides and 2) how well your tools + EZ guides work together as a system. Even if you have a great circular saw that is better than the Festool saw, and even if the EZ guide is better than the Festool guide, the combination of your tool + EZ guide may not work together well.

Bottom line... Do you really like your tools and don't mind integrating with EZ? Yes? Buy EZ. No? Buy Festool.

Regards,

Dan.

I think you have hit the nail right on the head Dan!

I'd like to congratulate Dino, I have the pleasure of knowing him through the WWW, I don't even know the name of the person/persons that own Festool ;)

Cheers!

Hoa Dinh

10-04-2006, 4:00 AM

I don't understand the purpose of this thread.

This issue has been beaten to death so many times. There is nothing new.

I can understand if a person asks the question of E vs F because (s)he doesn't know either one (or knows only one) and is trying to make a purchasing decision. Even then, I'm sure someone will say "do a search."

But this is apparently not the case.

We all know that a review in a magazine doesn't mean a whole lot to anyone in either camp and to anyone in no camp.

So, enlighten me please, what's the point?

Gary Keedwell

10-04-2006, 7:50 AM

Hao,

Just bringing it to everybody's attention that there is a review in a major publication, is all. There is still many, myself included, that are sitting on the fence. As a publication that specializes in house building, it is interesting to see their perspective. After all , reading this thread is an option ....you don't have to.

Gary K.

skip coyne

10-04-2006, 8:13 AM

nothing more than one mans opion

Im to cheap to buy so I sat in Borders books the other day and read it , along with the reveiw of EZ in woodsmith

its intersting that Hartville tools guide is well rated yet hartville is reported to have a good reveiw of the EZ in their latest catalog .

I put a lot more weight to what I read here and in other forums than I do to magazine reveiws

Burt Waddell

10-04-2006, 3:19 PM

Congratulations to Festool on being rated "best overall".

Who was rated as having "best anti chip protection" which translates to me to be best cut?

Another interesting point is this was a review covering only a limited set of features that all the guides in the test had. It ignored all the features that set the different guide rails apart.

Dan's Essay on the "System" really doesn't fit in the scope of the article.

Has Woodsmith done a review of Festool? Wonder what the results would be if they did.

Al Willits

10-04-2006, 4:29 PM

Hoa, a search doesn't always mean you'll get what your looking for.
I've gotten a lot of info from searching, and couldn't find other info I was looking for, maybe not "search" educated or? but either way, I enjoy seeing posts like this....

I think its sometimes easy to forget, that every now and then some newbie like me comes along, and can't find all the info he needs.
I/we will enjoy them oft repeated posts, as we're seeing them for the first time, and thank the rest for just putting up with us newbies....:D

btw, I've talked to Dino also, and hopefully by Friday or next Monday I'll have the funds for a EZ smart system, was a pleasure to deal with him....even if he doesn't speak Scandihovien...:)

Al

Burt Waddell

10-04-2006, 4:42 PM

From Fine Home building:

Best anti-chip protection? EZ.

Full page ad? The best overall.

Summary From Woodsmith (No ads):
This innovative guide system turns your circular saw into a precision tool for cutting sheet stock.

...At first glance, the ez smart looks like a lot of other straightedge saw guides on the market. But there are some key differences in how the Ez Smart works.

...All this features are great,but what makes the EZ Smart really stand out are the accessories available for it.

...After taking a look at these, you quickly realise that this isn't just a saw guide---it's a precision cutting system for the circular saw.

...Repeaters-Square-SRK

...These accessories allow you to use it for cutting parts to length, squaring up panels, or routing joinery.

Bob Marino

10-04-2006, 5:14 PM

[quote=Burt Waddell]From Fine Home building:

Best anti-chip protection? EZ.

Full page ad? The best overall.

Burt,

I generally stay out of these Festool - EZ posts (as I think all people affiliated with these companies should, but that's me). And it takes much to get an editorial type response/comment from me. However, your implication that because Festool has a full page ad in FWW, they got top honors and Best Overall is highly insulting - and I'm afraid, speaks more of you than of either FWW or Festool.
Bob

Burt Waddell

10-04-2006, 5:55 PM

Bob,

I should have been more specific with that comment. The punctuation didn't work as intended. I always find it interesting when a tool rated as "Best, tops or whatever the best rating is" has a full page ad in the edition of the magazine with that rating. I was not trying to say that the rating was less than honest but it sure could make you wonder.

Burt

Gary Keedwell

10-04-2006, 5:55 PM

Burt,

I generally stay out of these Festool - EZ posts (as I think all people affiliated with these companies should, but that's me). And it takes much to get an editorial type response/comment from me. However, your implication that because Festool has a full page ad in FWW, they got top honors and Best Overall is highly insulting - and I'm afraid, speaks more of you than of either FWW or Festool.
Bob__________________
bob m
I had the same 1st response that Bob had but after thinking for awhile I remember the old saying: "Money talks...B.S. walks" I have to wonder if at their meetings, the Vice President in charge of advertising and Promotions doesn't flex his muscles a little and when the treasurer has his turn to talk at the same meeting, well..........You want to believe everything is on the up & up but there is always that nagging feeling about your paycheck bouncing...and paying the bills....and getting "laid-off"....and well, you know what I mean!!!

Gary K.

Bob Childress

10-04-2006, 6:09 PM

skip coyne

10-04-2006, 6:10 PM

Bob Marino

10-04-2006, 6:28 PM

[quote=BOB MARINO]
you are aware that in many "trade " magizines profiles and articles are all part of the advertising package.

Skip,

Yes, of course I am aware of that.

Bob

Bruce Benjamin

10-04-2006, 6:52 PM

I'm not trying to imply that the test was skewed to favor the Festool advertising dollar but I doubt that this was the first ad that Festool had ever had in that magazine. With any comparison test, it's not hard to imagine that a magazine might tend to be more kind to a company that already spends big advertising dollars with them if the results are close. Again, I'm not suggesting that this is what happened in the magazine test but anyone suggesting that this sort of thing doesn't go on once in a while sure does have a lot of faith in human honesty prevailing over the almighty dollar every time.

All of that being said, back when I was in the market for a guide system I looked closely at both the Festool and EZ systems. After reading numerous forum reviews, scouring both websites, and asking questions of both Festool and EZ Smart owners I easily made the decision to buy the EZ Smart. I've never quite understood why the phrase, "...designed to work together as a system" is the mantra repeated by many Festool owners. I looked at how both brands worked, what they included or had available, and what the capabilities of each were and decided that the EZ Smart with the Hilti 267 saw offered me more function, expandability, versatility, and therefore, more value than the Festool setup. The Festool system looks great. High quality and very functional. But to me the EZ offered all of that and more. I've been very happy with it but obviously there are plenty of Festool owners who are very happy with their purchase too. I don't doubt that if I had bought the Festool system I'd have been happy with it too. Interesting that there are Festool owners who have had Dino make EZ Smart components that adapt to their Festool guide rails instead of just sticking with all Festool though. Had I bought the Festool system I probably would've been one of those people giving Dino a call. I've never heard of any EZ Smart owners calling Festool to ask them to makes something to fit their EZ Smart system. Well, other than the people using their Festool saw on the EZ rails.

Bruce

skip coyne

10-04-2006, 6:54 PM

[quote=skip coyne]

Skip,

Yes, of course I am aware of that.

Bob

well it was a surprise to me I was in my 20's managing a branch manufactruing plant and I got a call from a trade magazine wanting to do a article about us .

I was real impressed untill I found out how much the article would cost and how many other ads we needed to buy :rolleyes:

John Seiffer

10-04-2006, 7:03 PM

Skip,
I see your point, but running a promotional article and doing a test are two different things.

Also a lot of it depends on the reputation of the magazine. If this is the one put out by Taunton Press then I don't think they'd sacrifice their reputation for a full page ad.

You can generally tell by the tone of the articles. If they never mention any limitations or deficiencies in any products then they are more likely to be bought.

Cliff Rohrabacher

10-04-2006, 7:16 PM

FesterTool will kick EZs tail !!!

The Germans have some really good weapons they have a mobole howitzer that can shoot many shells at various trajectories so that they arrive at the same time.

EZ hasn't got any weapons technology.

Bob Marino

10-04-2006, 7:26 PM

[quote=Bruce Benjamin]I'm not trying to imply that the test was skewed to favor the Festool advertising dollar.

Bruce,

I think Burt was implying just that.

Bob

Ian Barley

10-04-2006, 8:40 PM

Burt and Gary,
I ran an ad agency for 13 years and here is most likely how it worked in this case:
FH rep talks to Festool: "We ran some tests and you guys came out first. Want an ad to take advantage of it?"
Festool: "Yep."
FH rep talks to Dino: "We ran some tests and you guys got best anti-chip protection. Want an ad to take advantage of it?"
Dino: ?? (Don't know if they had an ad or not. Probably should have.)
FH rep talks to next person: "We ran a test and you got so and so. Want an ad to take advantage of it?"
You get the idea.

I have had many trade pubs run case studies and so on for advertisers, but haven't seen too many that would fudge their tests for ad bucks. But they sure would call the win, place, and show and push for placements! ;)

I'm not saying some wouldn't fudge, but it's not common. Alienates too many readers if they are way off. (BTW, if B&D ever wins, THEN look at ad placement. :rolleyes: )
I completely concur with Bob. I have had product featured in magazines and been approached to run an ad in the same issue. The editorial about my product has been exactly the same whether I take the ad or not. Some of you guys need to work out some new conspiracy theories:) In my experience there is a world of difference between "consumer" magazines like FWW & FH and trade or industry publications. While I do not always agree with reviews in consumer mags I have never see one that was blatantly lifted from corporate propoganda. Much of the so called editorial in an average trade magazine is lifted directly from corporate PR releases. If Festool had a full page ad it was caused by the good review rather than the other way round.

Jim Becker

10-04-2006, 8:54 PM

OK...everyone. Play Nice. Please. Many of the products that a lot of us use scored very nicely. Enjoy the fact that you own them or want to own them. But PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE lay off the nasties, even subtle ones. They just plain are not necessary and I or Ken will delete them quite cheerfully.

Jim
SMC Moderator

Bruce Benjamin

10-04-2006, 9:02 PM

[quote=Bruce Benjamin]I'm not trying to imply that the test was skewed to favor the Festool advertising dollar.

Bruce,

I think Burt was implying just that.

Bob

Bob, my name is Bruce and I speak for myself. I don't speak for Burt or try to explain what he meant by any comments he has made. I was in no way trying to say that the article was in anyway biased. I was primarily responding to a post that implied that this sort of thing wasn't likely to happen. That's all. Relax, it's all good here.:)

Bruce

Dino Makropoulos

10-04-2006, 9:12 PM

[quote=Burt Waddell]From Fine Home building:

I generally stay out of these Festool - EZ posts (as I think all people affiliated with these companies should,
but that's me).

Bob.
Burt is not affiliated with Eurekazone.
He don't receive free tools or any other form of compensation for his support to the ez smart.

Accusing Burt of working for Eurekazone
(Of supporting whatever he likes) is what made Burt
a strong ez supporter.

Same with PaulB and few others.

Accusing Eurekazone of been affiliated to an ez supporter
is out of my mind.

This type of responses can only fuel the antagonism
that started from the F-Supporters and affiliates.

About the review.

It says a lot for FHB and other guides.
The EZ wasn't there.

Remember the title of the article.
Can the edge guides replace the tablesaw?

The answer?
The ez smart woodworking system is safer and better than a jobsite tablesaw.
Offers Repeatability and narrow stock clamping to the narrowest piece of wood.
By the way, this is first time inventions in woodworking history.

But ...we can't say that.
The tablesaws manufactures may get upset ....
Don may get upset...and many-many others.

The FHB review was out of focus and now this thread.

Q. Can the ez smart replace the tablesaw?
Q. Why even review other edge guides on this article when we all know that they can't?

I hope we don't start with Bruce now.:rolleyes:

Burt Waddell

10-04-2006, 9:18 PM

[quote=Bruce Benjamin]I'm not trying to imply that the test was skewed to favor the Festool advertising dollar.

Bruce,

I think Burt was implying just that.

Bob

Bob,

I specifically addressed this in post #15. Either accept the truth or believe what you wish. The choice is yours.

Burt

Steve Rowe

10-04-2006, 9:37 PM

Fine Homebuilding has a must read article on Circular-saw Edge Guides. Guess who received "BEST OVERALL." And who received "BEST VALUE"?

Stay tuned..........

Gary K.

PS. I'm going to read it tonite when I go to bed.
Fortunately, it doesn't matter to me since I place zero value on magazine reviews of tools. Hopefully, I am not the only woodworker who finds the silly labels of "editors choice", "best overall", "best value", etc., etc., etc. annoying and meaningless. They are soley the opinion of the evaluator based on the way they work and their preferences. Oh for the good old days when Sgt. Friday said; "Just the facts Ma'am, just the facts."

Last year I didn't renew my subscription to WWJ and I had already decided to not renew my subscription to FWW (ending after 22 continuous years) due to articles like these. I suppose, at my age, I just don't like being told what I should (or shouldn't buy) by anyone, particularly when I don't ask.
Steve

Gary Keedwell

10-04-2006, 10:55 PM

Well,

I like reading them because I learn some of the things about the products so I can make an INFORMED decision on my own. The reviews are what they are...nothing more. Just another tool to help me decide what or if I want to buy. Sometimes I will read 4 or 5 reviews and listen to the forums and read the specs. and or the manual to assist in my decision making. I work hard for my money and I don't make very many consumer regrets. That being said....I go by the old saying...."Believe nothing you hear...and only half of what you see"

Gary K.

Don Baer

10-04-2006, 11:18 PM

Andy Hoyt

10-04-2006, 11:43 PM

I don't own anything F or E - and likely never will.

But I do use a guided system - it's my eyes, hands, and experience.

Price was right too - free from the OEM.

Cordless, too.

Dan Clark

10-05-2006, 12:11 AM

I have tried to stay away from posting on this thread but as it has grown into the typical F vs E arguement I feel I must contribute something. Woodworking is not an exact science. There are several way to tacke any problem weather it's cutting wood or joining. Books have been written on finishing, there is no right way or wrong way. It all has to do with how one works. I had the privilidge of spending a day with Sam Maloff and he doesn't use either the F or the E. I am sure they both have there merits and those who use these tools feel very passionatly about them. Please remember that there is no right solution, only the one that works for you and no amount of arguing is going to change someones minds when what they use works for them. I use the same set of rails that I bought 20+ years ago to break down sheet good. I paid less then $10 for them when I bought them. Today you can buy them at the borg for less them $17.00. Then I finish on my table saw. Does that make it the best system, well I'n my opinion it does but remember what my dad said about opinions, everybody has one. Now let us resume normal woodworking.

Now let us resume our normal woodworking..:D

Don,

I don't think that F or E is meant for the professional wood worker who has a very large woodshop and a large inventory of expensive, traditional wood working equipment. These folks have created and fine-tuned an environment and process that works for them.

However, many people (like me) don't have that luxury. Yes, "luxury"...

I have neither the space or inclination to purchase a large, high-quality table saw that will handle 4X8 sheets of plywood. I can't buy a 16" jointer and planer. I don't have no space for three or four 10' long work benches.

So what do I do? Like a lot of these folks who don't have the luxuries that you and others do, I work around them. Yes, I have the money to purchase decent tools. But I have nowhere to put them.

So, I buy Festool. I figure out ways to maximize the space and time that I have. I leverage what I can.

If I had a whole passle of portable tools I liked, I might buy EZ.

Frankly, although I don't like the aggressive and insulting tone of some of the EZ posts, I like even less posts that imply, "Let's go back to discussing 'needs of real men' - guys with planers, and jointers and table saws." Sorry, but that doesn't make it either.

Each of us is trying to find our own path. Please recognize that. Some paths are not the traditional, but they are valid.

Regards,

Dan.

Don Baer

10-05-2006, 12:40 AM

Dan,
I find nothing in your post that is contrary to what I have posted, i wonder why you nothered to respond?:confused:

Dan Clark

10-05-2006, 12:53 AM

Dan,
I find nothing in your post that is contrary to what I have posted, i wonder why you nothered to respond?:confused:

Don,

Perhaps your meant something other than what I read. Let's forget it.

Untimately, what is important is that each of us finds the tools that meet our needs. Some people (no, not you) seem to feel the need to insult others' choice of tools or company because it doesn't match their own.

It's the abuse that bothers me, not the tools or companies.

Regards,

Dan.

Ken Salisbury

10-05-2006, 1:02 AM

OK - here we go again ! ! !

We don't need the "nasties" as Jim B calls them. Either stay on the topic and refrain from the "you pick on me and then I pick on you" syndrome. Thread is on the verge of being closed.

"Your Friendly Moderator"

Frank Pellow

10-05-2006, 2:48 PM

I read the Fine Homebuilding article and, to me, it seems like a good and fair comparison of 6 guide rail systems, any one of which I am sure I would be happy to use.

As far as Festool and the EZ`system comparison, yes the writer picked Festool by a very narrow margin but, as he says, "Choosing between Festool and EZ`Smart is like choosing between Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid".

Gary Keedwell

10-05-2006, 3:33 PM

I read the Fine Woodworking article and, to me, it seems like a good and fair comparison of 6 guide rail systems, any one of which I am sure I would be happy to use.

As far as Festool and the EZ`system comparison, yes the writer picked Festool by a very narrow margin but, as he says, "Choosing between Festool and EZ`Smart is like choosing between Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid".
Frank...it was in Fine Homebuilding. Do you think that home building would have different criteria than woodworking? Just a thought,is all.

Gary K.

Dan Clark

10-05-2006, 3:53 PM

They would probably have picked the Festool guides by a higher margin because they are woodworkers.

The vast majority of Festool users are woodworkers, not builders. Many builders have a set of tools that they are happy with and would probably pick the EZ guides as the superior alternative.

Although the Festool guide is very good, I believe that most woodworkers are attracted to Festool TOOLS, not Festool guides. If you use Festool TOOLS, then you probably will choose Festool guides. I.e., the Festool guide would preferred because they are Festool tool users.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s., Yes some Festool users have EZ guides, but the VAST majority do not.

Frank Pellow

10-05-2006, 4:11 PM

Frank...it was in Fine Homebuilding. Do you think that home building would have different criteria than woodworking? Just a thought,is all.

Gary K.

Right you are Gary. :o I went back and edited my post to make the correction.

Gary Keedwell

10-05-2006, 4:21 PM

Dan, you are absolutely right. I have 3-4 carpenter friends that you described to the tee.

Gary K.

Jeff Fritzson

10-05-2006, 6:04 PM

Well I might as well add on to this as I have yet to post on one of these threads. I am both an EZ user and soon to be a festool user (sanders to start.) I use my EZ system with a Porter-Cable Mag 25. I get good results but mainly do not expect to have a finished cut using this set up. There are two primary reasons for this:

1. Operator error - regardless of which system (EZ or Festool) I still have to mark crosscuts on long boards with my eyes, pencil and then line up the guide. When I am doing multiple of these I automatically introduce errors. The particular cut I have is a 15 inch long crosscut on a piece of plywood 75" long. What I actually ended up doing is using my SCMS set up and flipping the board over. That gave me the best results.

2. My Mag 325 does not have a blade in it that gives me a great finishing cut. I could change the blade but for the most part, I break down to rough sizes and finish on my TS with a WWII blade.

Now number one above is going to exist regardless of whether I use EZ or Feestool. Number two above has an interesting twist but it is really comparing the Festool Circular saw to the PC Mag 325. I could not justify the price of the Festool Circular saw for what I do (not anyone else.) Is Festool's circular saw good? Absolutely. I have had my opportunity using it and it is a wonderful saw. If I had unlimited funds it would be in my arsenal.

However, for how I do woodworking (if you can call it that) I could not see that as my best bang for the buck. I would not use it enough (currently) to justify that expense. You might ask how do I justify the festool sander expense and I can say right off the bat that the dust collection is the primary reason (the mag 325 with a shop vac gives some decent DC.) Health issues and built-ins lend myself to justifying the sanders.

That is just from my perspective.

Regards,
Jeff

Dan Clark

10-05-2006, 6:44 PM

...soon to be a festool user (sanders to start.)

Jeff, what Festool sander are you looking at?

Operator error - regardless of which system (EZ or Festool) I still have to mark crosscuts on long boards with my eyes, pencil and then line up the guide. When I am doing multiple of these I automatically introduce errors.
...

Now number one above is going to exist regardless of whether I use EZ or Feestool.

Maybe. Maybe not. If you limit yourself to guides, then I'd probably agree with you. If you also use Festool circular saw + MFT1080 + guide, then I don't think that is necessarily true.

... how do I justify the festool sander expense and I can say right off the bat that the dust collection is the primary reason (the mag 325 with a shop vac gives some decent DC.) Health issues and built-ins lend myself to justifying the sanders.

The Festool sanders have great dust collection built in. And, with an adapter (check out a Fein adapter) you can hook it to your shop vac. However...

There are two issues here.

First, most shop vacs do not control dust very well. Festool and Fein (and maybe others) have great dust collection and very fine filters. Very, very little dust escapes them.

Second, an issue that many people report is that a better quality DC (like Fein and Festool) has some much suction that it overpowers the sander. Festool DC's have an advantage here because they have variable suction control.

You many want to consider looking at the DC issue first. Festools and Feins are excellent, IMO.

Obviously, you need to take what I write with grain of salt since I'm a Festool fan (see signature). :D

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. Be careful when buying your first Festool. It's a long slippery slope.

Gary Keedwell

10-05-2006, 6:44 PM

Dan, I agree with you and have some carpenter friends that will agree, also! lol

Gary K.

Lee DeRaud

10-05-2006, 6:52 PM

Glenn Clabo

10-05-2006, 7:08 PM

That's pretty good Dan...however it was a simple decision for me. I had the tools (CS) and needed to better manage my sheet goods. Festool tools are amazing...but the EZ system fits MY needs...and I simply don't need to spend the money. I have never had the pleasure of dealing with Bob...and I'm sure he is a great guy...but I have had the pleasure of dealing with Dino and he is amazing...but misunderstood. I wish people would STOP (!!!!) this them vs us...and get back to woodworking/building. It's not tools...it's the person who is using them.

Dan Clark

10-05-2006, 8:03 PM

...but the EZ system fits MY needs...

Glenn,

What else can be more important? I can't think of anything.

When I started buying Festool, I looked around. In fact, I looked at EZ first. When I added up all the factors - including what I needed to accomplish and my current rather poor set of tools - the Festool best fit MY needs!

Sounds like we both won! :)

Best regards,

Dan.

Dino Makropoulos

10-05-2006, 10:20 PM

Glenn,

What else can be more important? I can't think of anything.

Dan.

Safety and Versatility.

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/smart-clamping-tutorials?page=1

The fact that anyone now can make any cut safe with any tool is more important than Glenn's and Dan's tools.

Regards.

Bob Michaels

10-05-2006, 10:33 PM

Can it, Burt. I for one am tired of reading your BS.

Burt Waddell

10-05-2006, 10:43 PM

Can it, Burt. I for one am tired of reading your BS.

Bob,

This is my first post of the day? What are you talking about?

Burt

Edit add: I think I just figured out what you are talking about. You gave me credit for Dino's post and you think that making a safe cut is BS. To me, if there isn't safety, there is nothing.

Dan Clark

10-06-2006, 12:09 AM

Safety and Versatility.

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/smart-clamping-tutorials?page=1

The fact that anyone now can make any cut safe with any tool is more important than Glenn's and Dan's tools.

Regards.

Can it Dino! I'm tired of your constant hype!!!

I'm trying to recognize that each person's needs is important to them and that the best solution for each person is individual. HOW DARE YOU TELL ME WHAT IS IMPORTANT!!!! I AND I ALONE WILL DECIDE WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME.

You and Burt, on the other hand, use every stinking opportunity to stick your nose in and hype your products! You twist EVERY opportunity to your marketing advantage! I am completely sick of you!

MODERATOR PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

And I strongly urge you to ban these two hype mongers or at least limit them to their own forum.

Don Baer

10-06-2006, 12:11 AM

I think the Clearview... oh waite I got the wrong thread.

:D

Dan Clark

10-06-2006, 12:14 AM

Bob,

This is my first post of the day? What are you talking about?

Burt

Edit add: I think I just figured out what you are talking about. You gave me credit for Dino's post and you think that making a safe cut is BS. To me, if there isn't safety, there is nothing.

Burt, you have the single worst reputation of any individual on any forum that I have read. You are known far and wide as a marketer of EZ products and don't give one hoot in hell about anyone else's needs or wants.

Can it!

Jon Eckels

10-06-2006, 12:49 AM

I'll start out by saying I'm an EZ owner, and leave it at that. I'm relatively happy with the system, there are a few things about it that I find lacking, but any line of tools has it's high points and it's low points.

I paid about 500$ to integrate the EZ into my tool collection, and it's served me well.

Before I found the EZ, I looked at the festool guide systems and drooled over it for about a year. But I already had a saw. Already had a router. Good ones too, not tools I was unhappy with by any means. Not top of the line, but they got the job done.

To buy a comparable Festool collection to what I had with my current tools + the EZ Upgrade, would have cost me about 1200.00. Not to mention the prices of festool accessories. It's a pretty system, with many merits, that no reasonable person can deny. But for folks like me it's simply cost prohibitive. I don't do cabinet work. I build and install custom screen doors and window panels. I also don't do fine woodworking, though I've built several pretty pieces of furnature that i'm rather proud of.

I may one day, when my business has grown enough, spring for the TS55, as I really like the plunge-depth feature, and the dust collection on the router really makes me smile, but at this point it's not something in thre realm of possibility. I would likely continue to use the EZ system as well, because there are several things that the EZ is capable of that the festool system simply can't do, as there are things that the festool tools can do that that my regular tools cannot.

That being said, I'd like to make the following observation.

I'm not by any stretch of the definition, a tool snob. I used what tools work (and I can afford :) ) to get the job done.

One thing I've noticed though, is time after time I've seen Festool users bash the hell out of the EZ, and it frustrates the heck out of me. Frankly, I don't care what system you use, if you're happy with the Festool, good for you. But emotional outbursts like the one Dan has been kind enough to display for us, aren't all that uncommon when it comes to this "discussion".

Why is this necessary?

Why shouldn't both EZ users and Festool users be able to tout the merits of their system in a thread that's by it's very title is intended to be for? Seems they should be able to, no?

I'm put off by the tool snobbery of Festool Users in general. While I'll probably one day own some Festool power tools myself, I don't think I'll ever want to belong to the club. Maybe I can find a company that will ship Festools in a discreet brown box, so no one will have to know.

Can it Dino! I'm tired of your constant hype!!!

I'm trying to recognize that each person's needs is important to them and that the best solution for each person is individual. HOW DARE YOU TELL ME WHAT IS IMPORTANT!!!! I AND I ALONE WILL DECIDE WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME.

You and Burt, on the other hand, use every stinking opportunity to stick your nose in and hype your products! You twist EVERY opportunity to your marketing advantage! I am completely sick of you!

MODERATOR PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

And I strongly urge you to ban these two hype mongers or at least limit them to their own forum.

Vaughn McMillan

10-06-2006, 12:50 AM

I think the Clearview... oh waite I got the wrong thread.

:D
Mustard!

No, Mayo!

:p

Jon Eckels

10-06-2006, 12:51 AM

Oh yeah.... Ketchup. ;)

Hoa Dinh

10-06-2006, 1:04 AM

Dan Clark

10-06-2006, 1:06 AM

Jon,

I respect your choice. You and others must respect mine. As I've said multiple times in this thread alone, each of us chooses what meets their needs. Nothing else is important.

I cannot understand how you can say that ANY of my comments are snobbery. Yes, I like the Festools. Yes, they are very nice and high quality. But that's not why I bought them.

My primary reason for buying them was the same reason that you bought EZ - they met my needs better than any other product! Period.

My outburst was because Dino decided to jump in and define my needs. It does not and never has been about the product. It's about aggressive hype and massive disrespect. Dino seems to think that he can define what is important to me. NOBODY defines my needs but me!

Regards,

Dan.

I'll start out by saying I'm an EZ owner, and leave it at that. I'm relatively happy with the system, there are a few things about it that I find lacking, but any line of tools has it's high points and it's low points.

I paid about 500$ to integrate the EZ into my tool collection, and it's served me well.

Before I found the EZ, I looked at the festool guide systems and drooled over it for about a year. But I already had a saw. Already had a router. Good ones too, not tools I was unhappy with by any means. Not top of the line, but they got the job done.

To buy a comparable Festool collection to what I had with my current tools + the EZ Upgrade, would have cost me about 1200.00. Not to mention the prices of festool accessories. It's a pretty system, with many merits, that no reasonable person can deny. But for folks like me it's simply cost prohibitive. I don't do cabinet work. I build and install custom screen doors and window panels. I also don't do fine woodworking, though I've built several pretty pieces of furnature that i'm rather proud of.

I may one day, when my business has grown enough, spring for the TS55, as I really like the plunge-depth feature, and the dust collection on the router really makes me smile, but at this point it's not something in thre realm of possibility. I would likely continue to use the EZ system as well, because there are several things that the EZ is capable of that the festool system simply can't do, as there are things that the festool tools can do that that my regular tools cannot.

That being said, I'd like to make the following observation.

I'm not by any stretch of the definition, a tool snob. I used what tools work (and I can afford :) ) to get the job done.

One thing I've noticed though, is time after time I've seen Festool users bash the hell out of the EZ, and it frustrates the heck out of me. Frankly, I don't care what system you use, if you're happy with the Festool, good for you. But emotional outbursts like the one Dan has been kind enough to display for us, aren't all that uncommon when it comes to this "discussion".

Why is this necessary?

Why shouldn't both EZ users and Festool users be able to tout the merits of their system in a thread that's by it's very title is intended to be for? Seems they should be able to, no?

I'm put off by the tool snobbery of Festool Users in general. While I'll probably one day own some Festool power tools myself, I don't think I'll ever want to belong to the club. Maybe I can find a company that will ship Festools in a discreet brown box, so no one will have to know.

Ian Barley

10-06-2006, 5:12 AM

...One thing I've noticed though, is time after time I've seen Festool users bash the hell out of the EZ...

I have to say Jon that I never have seen anybody bash the EZ system. I have seen people contest the claims that are made for the use of that system and the other ways of working that it can replace. I have seen people react to, what appear to me, overt marketing of the EZ system which contravenes the TOS of this forum. But I do not recall ever having seen anybody say that the EZ system is technically or functionaly inferior to Festool or any other system. If I am wrong I would be delighted if you could point me towards contrary evidence.

I believe that each system fills a different market space. Bravo! Thats what an economy ought to be about. Different choices.

I do, from a technical language point of view have a problem with claims that anything is "safe". Probably the only "safe" thing ever made by man is a padded cell with an anti-ligature door handle. Everything else brings with it the ability do harm to a lesser or greater degree. Therefore claims can be made for "safer" and it is probably fair to say that any system based on a guided rail is safer than some of the alternative means of achieving the same task. Problem is that the text that I have highlighted in blue doesn't make great advertising copy.

Per Swenson

10-06-2006, 6:29 AM

I Probably the only "safe" thing ever made by man is a padded cell with an anti-ligature door handle. Everything else brings with it the ability do harm to a lesser or greater degree.

Ahh, Ian,

Sadly No, this practice is not safe at all and can cause great damage to that
Human organ the brain. Although just short of organ failure or death.
Kinda Like rereading this F/E nonsense once a month.

Per

russ bransford

10-06-2006, 7:56 AM

It's interesting that the FHB article really puts festool and eurekazone on the same team. Can we replace the TS on the jobsite? And for those with a hobby, can we live without the TS in the shop?

It feels like we're leading up to the big game and it's all talk for now, until the whistle blows.

How many have actually retired their TS? Why? space, difficult cuts, weight, etc.

Each time we go down this path, we run into too much testosterone and not enough sawdust. I can read what people are saying about their tools, but the whistle will blow sooner or later and somebody will have to make something other than a cutting remark.

Russ

Ken Salisbury

10-06-2006, 9:06 AM

Each time we go down this path, we run into too much testosterone and not enough sawdust. I can read what people are saying about their tools, but the whistle will blow sooner or later and somebody will have to make something other than a cutting remark.

Russ

- - - AMEN !! - - -

Mike Wenzloff

10-06-2006, 9:12 AM

Hi Russ,

How many have actually retired their TS? Why? space, difficult cuts, weight, etc.

I have a table saw in storage. If I needed to rip several hundred feet of long stock I would pull it out. For me it is the space it would take up in a shop which barely measures 11' 6" by the same.

So I use a BS as my main rip/resaw. Short pieces I do by hand. Small dimensioning of width I do by hand. Most all cross cuts are by hand. Some joinery is a combination of both BS and hand. Sometimes all on the BS, except fitting.

But I don't do sheet goods often. When I do it is 5x5 sheets of Baltic Birch. Those I typically breakdown using a handsaw, then trim to size on the BS. If I had a bunch to do infrequently, I would use one of my shop built guides and my circular saw [assuming I can find it].

If I had a lot to do now and again, I would consider something *like* the EZ/FT saw which could be easily set up and taken down. Same with site work.

If I had a lot to do consistently? My shop would be bigger and there would be some sort of TS in place.

Take care, Mike
who cannot believe he posted in a EZ/FT thread <g>...

tod evans

10-06-2006, 9:14 AM

Kinda Like rereading this F/E nonsense once a month.

Per

here! here!:D

Ian Barley

10-06-2006, 9:21 AM

Ahh, Ian,

Sadly No, this practice is not safe at all and can cause great damage to that
Human organ the brain. Although just short of organ failure or death.
Kinda Like rereading this F/E nonsense once a month.

Per
Per - You are indeed perfectly correct. Maybe I have been spending too much time in mine.:D

Al Willits

10-06-2006, 9:37 AM

One of the problems with being on a forum for any length of time is its gonna start getting repetitious, and then we have the "oh no, not this again" whenever someone posts something that's been around for awhile.

Always easy to say "do a search" not always easy to actually do that search, especially if you don't know the key word to use.
Some forums get so much info its hard to find it all.

Would be nice if people would either just ignore posts that they find boring, or comment on a post without the emotion coming into play.
It also would be nice if some of the long timers would understand that just because it doesn't fit what they want to talk about or think should be discussed, that others may enjoy a post.

Personally I've learnt a lot from this forum, both with the search feature and asking though a post, I'd emagine I haven't asked anything that hasn't been talked about before, and if this is offesnsive to some, maybe this forum should be called "For master woodworkers only" but until that happens, I'll keep asking questions, and helping if I can.
For this I'm grateful.

Just a thought...

Al

Burt Waddell

10-06-2006, 10:04 AM

Having been in a number of EZ/Festool threads, I've noticed a predictable pattern develop.

At the start of the thread, there are a number of good exchanges about the tools (Just like a good discussion should be).

Next becomes upset and turns the topic to personalities. The reason given is they are tired of...... In other cases, they have simply been beaten on the merits of the tools and won't bow out gracefully. Rather than say "You're correct." They resort of personal attacks.

At this point, others just quit posting to the thread or the moderators shut it down.

Go back and look at a few threads, you'll see the pattern. The comments by Dan in this thread are pointing in that direction. Look at his response to Dino and myself. Nothing was said that merited his response.

To keep these threads civil, people must attack the message not the messanger.

Burt

Jim Dailey

10-06-2006, 10:16 AM

When I read the original post I started this thread with...

"Popcorn, a comfortable chair & cold beverages....." Because I knew where it would lead.....

Now.....

The popcorn has long gone stale like this posting....

The chair has gotten very uncomfortable many times....

The beverages are empty like much of the substance of this post....

LET'S PUT THIS POST TO BED!!! (sorry for shouting... but at least I did not shout in upper case bold black ink!!!)

jim

Ian Barley

10-06-2006, 10:21 AM

Burt

For my own analysis of these threads - they never go south until somebody makes a post which breachs the TOS. Usually the one to do with direct commercial affiliation. Then somebody(ies) else feels they have to respond (BTDT). Then there are rattles flying out of prams left, right and centre. If the TOS get stuck to I suspect that one day we might make it all the way through and get a sensible discussion.
Just to save anybody looking it up TOS section E -1 relevant passage is

Posts made by
Members with direct commercial affiliation, and with the apparent intent of using SawMill Creek for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service will be subject to removal. Members with direct commercial affiliation are defined to be those Members who stand to benefit financially from such a promotion.

Burt Waddell

10-06-2006, 10:38 AM

Ian,

In case you didn't read a recent post by Dino:

- I have no connection with EZ Smart. I have bought my EZ Smart equipment from 3 different sources. I did agree to offer a class at my shop but financial arrangements haven't been discussed.
- I have never met Dino

- I own both EZ and Festool Equipment.

- I support the EZ Equipment because I use it and believe in it.

Dan Clark

10-06-2006, 10:56 AM

Russ,

Well said!

It's interesting that the FHB article really puts festool and eurekazone on the same team. Can we replace the TS on the jobsite? And for those with a hobby, can we live without the TS in the shop?
Like you, I'm wrestling with these too. We need to talk about the big issues:

- Can you create a "portable" woodshop that can be taken to a work site or set up quickly in your garage that allows you to do finish carpentry or fine woodworking?

- Can large, heavy tools like the table saw, bandsaw, jointer, drill press, and workbench be replaced with lighter, portable tools and STILL get excellent results?

Workbench magazine did an article in 2005 called "Euroshop The small shop that works big". Here's a PDF of the article:
http://www.festool.com.au/images/Australia/NewProducts/Workbench2005.pdf

The first two pages are the most important and cover this concept. If you have good portable tools, disregard the last four pages which are focused Festool tools implementing the concept. In the pictures on the first two pages, it also shows a small Rikon planer/jointer, a space-saving triton wood-rack, a portable plywood cutting table, a portable DC, and a portable workbench, guide and router being used to route a board.

This particular article was the first time I'd seen the portability issue addressed. The article is how I became aware of Festools and how they were being positioned. Although I now like the Festools as products, it was the underlying concept of portability AND quality woodworking that attracted me because it met my needs.

Can you replace the Festools with another circular saw, EZ guides, a Fein DC, a Porter Cable router and another portable workbench? Absolutely! Whatever works best for you!

Is the Euro Shop concept viable? I think it is. But how do you implement it? It's not the tools, it's HOW you can use them. But the problem is...

If you look at the woodworking magazines, virtually ALL writers have 20-50 years experience with "big iron". E.g., "First ya take your board and slap it on the jointer. Then take it to your big ole 10" plainer. Then cut 'er down with your humongous table saw, cut notches wit' your 18" band saw, and drill them holes wit' your drill press." :eek: :eek: :eek: Like I have space for all that stuff!!!

I learned some techniques with my Festools, but that's maybe 1% of what I need to now. I'm looking for better solutions for jointing and planeing in a small space. A good, compact, movable router table for my Hitach router. How to cut quality holes without a drill press. There's lots more. I need better answers from other users.

And I'm NOT interested in marketing hype presented by someone trying to sell their products. I.e., "just buy my products and all your problems will go away!" NOT!

Each time we go down this path, we run into too much testosterone and not enough sawdust.
I'm not sure of your exact meaning, but it looks like you're referring to the old, "My table saw is bigger than your table saw!" I.e., real men have big tools! :D

It's great if you have enough space to bring in the big iron and if you can work in one place. That works for some people, but many of us don't have that luxury. My house is pretty good sized, but there's NO room to build a shop. Like Europeans and Asians, we Americans are living in smaller and smaller spaces.

Like you, I think we need to focus on the bigger issues rather than arguing about whether one tool is slightly better than another.

Regards,

Dan.