HELP! HELP! Laser Tube Upgrade Advice Needed [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Frank Fusco

10-02-2006, 10:04 AM

I hate to be a critic.....well, no I don't. ;)
But it sure would help of folks would tell what they are talking about before saying something.
deos? synrad? explorer? (the Ford suv?) Coherent? rastering?
What are you talking about? :confused:
Not just this post, this is common, I have clicked out of several threads today simply because I have no idea of the subject. The subject was not stated or was stated in acronymns.

Matt Meiser

10-02-2006, 10:12 AM

Well, this post is in the laser engraver forum so I would assume they are talking about a laser upgrade. You can preview a post by hovering your mouse over the title. A box will pop up showing the first several lines of the post.

Rob Bosworth

10-02-2006, 11:31 AM

This thread is about some one having the opportunity to have the laser power changed by the manufacture.
Synrad Corp is a laser manufacture that was recently purchased by Coherent
Deos is a laser manufacture purchased in the last year by Coherent
Explorer is a model of laser engraving machine made by GCC
Rastering is A method of engraving that is made up of a series of back and forth passes: it works will well for large fill patterns.
Vectoring combinations of x, y lines used to make up images to be laser cut.

My question to the original poster is: why are they offering to change out the laser in your machine? Are you having a specific problems with the machine you own due to the Deos laser? If so, who says? Every laser, including lasers made by the same company with the same model name or numbers, has its own quirks. Are they offering to switch out lasers because they think you deserve a "better" deal? How long is the change out going to take?

James & Zelma Litzmann

10-02-2006, 12:12 PM

Because we have had more than our share of problems, we've had the machine 10 months and I guess the company does think we deserve a better deal. We got the machine in December 2005, in Feburary 2006 the tube went out the first time.

mike wallis

10-02-2006, 12:16 PM

I really hope that the Synrad tubes do not band as bad as Coherent tubes. My Mini tube has been plagued with with problems from the start. I went through about 4-5 tubes before I found one that was the lesser of the evils. I still have to do allot of work arounds to get a quality product.
I was really hoping that the Synrad tubes had less problems (Especially banding) and would eventually upgrade in the next few years. It's not looking good with the buyout, they will probably discontinue one of the lines over time.

Rodne Gold

10-02-2006, 5:35 PM

The Explorers have had very bad reliabilty with the deos tubes , not one 30w tube in our 3 explorers have lasted more then 6 months , according to GCC it was a QC problem with the tubes??
Evidently the problems have lessened recently? The latest batch of replacement tubes seem to be lasting , Our 3 spirits with Synrad tubes work fawlessly so far. I would imagine the reason for the "upgrade" is to lessen warrantee claims and downtime on the deos based system.

Personally , I would refuse to pay the price as its not your fault that the tubes went west , you are entitled to a product that works as advertised without having to spend extra

None of these tubes band , banding is not uiquely a tube problem , its a power supply , triggering, software and motion system problem.
I doubt any of the lines would be discontinued , the merger or buyout will probably strengthen both lines due to info and R&D crossovers. Kinda like Ford buying Aston Martin etc
I think that laser tubes are way overpriced and can forsee much cheaper and more potent systems coming to market soon.

Tom Buzz Bernard

10-02-2006, 5:51 PM

I personally would jump at this offer, if given the option. Not for the wattage, but to get rid of the constant deos tube issues. Would they do a 50 watt change for nothing?

Mike Mackenzie

10-02-2006, 6:12 PM

I would demand that they fix it or upgrade it for no cost. You bought the system from them and they are trying to charge you more to make it work correctly. Its there problem to correct it should not cost you anything!

mike wallis

10-02-2006, 6:27 PM

"None of these tubes band , banding is not uiquely a tube problem , its a power supply , triggering, software and motion system problem."

That contradicts everything Epilog and Universal has told me. I talked to the top person in Service from Epilog about 2 years ago when I was going through multiple issues and was told that all laser tubes "The main tube that is replaced" has power fluxuations within the tube. The tubes are suppose to be within a certain tolerance of fluxuation but they all fluxuate in power to some degree which results in banding if the tolerance is to far out. This proved to be true in my case, each tube fluxuated differently, some more, some less. I spent countless hours troubleshooting the source of the fluxuation and it was indeed the tube which Epilog confirmed. In the midst of trying to figure out why the machine fluxuated I called Universal to see if I were to buy a machine from them if I would run into power fluxuations/banding issues. The sales person at Universal confirmed that they all fluxuate including there's and to expect similar results with there product.

I don't think I've actually heard of anyone with a Synrad tube complain about banding and was leaning towards it on my next purchase. Anyone with a Synrad tube have banding issues especially with photographs?

James & Zelma Litzmann

10-02-2006, 6:43 PM

Tom,

The upgrade is not just because of banding, there have been other issues.

J&Z

Mike Mackenzie

10-02-2006, 6:46 PM

Mike,

You are correct with that assumption however we have used synrad, coherent, and our laser tubes in systems. We have had banding problems with them all. We have done something to control this issue but due to the way the laser is created and how motion systems work you will see some banding with all tubes. Its funny because some tubes don't show up banding at all some right out of the box are terrible. We have seen this with tubes directly from synrad that we sent to them for repair and did not have a banding problem before we sent it to them. When we got them back and tested them they were banding. If you tune the power supplies and the motion systems, and also figure out the optimum power and speed settings for the materials you can mask the banding issue. Most people do not see this unless they are engraving out a large area or in photographs in particular materials.

Rodne Gold

10-02-2006, 7:04 PM

The only time we have ever experienced banding with both deos and synrad tubes (im talking like a total of around 24 tubes in all , 12 coherents and at least the same in synrads spread over about 6 or 7 yrs and 3 platforms) is when the power to the laser is not smoothed , IE wall outlet power isnt good.
Power stability of both lasers is in the + and - 5 % mark which is very good , so there should be no discernable difference in terms of fluctuations between the 2 brands.
The only tube based problem we have had is ghosting or shadowing due to to high a trickle voltage and fixing that has been easy.
I have had no banding problems at all since using clean regulated power lines to my lasers and in one case where that didnt help , we used a 2.5kv AC to DC to AC UPS and that solved it.

mike wallis

10-02-2006, 7:14 PM

Hi Mike thanks for the reply. It's a little discouraging knowing that even the Synrad's have this problem.

For my Mini it was never an issue with the motion system outside the tube, everything was well tuned (Alignment, optics, cleaning) and when I first encountered the problems with banding the machine was brand new. We even switched out the power supply to eliminate it as the source. Out of the 5 tubes that were switched out to minimize the banding there was a noticeable difference in banding between the each tube. This leads me to believe that the banding that I'm getting is not in the motion system outside the tube but within the tube itself. We finally got a tube that we could work with or mask the problem with banding. Unfortunately the work around cost time and money in graphic setup and engraving time.

Can you elaborate on tuning the power supply?

Thanks again, Mike

Dave Fifield

10-03-2006, 6:06 PM

Would someone be kind enough to explain what you mean by "laser banding"? I did a web search on this and found nothing that was relevant (except this thread on SMC!). Is this a colloquialism? If so, what is the scientific explaination of the "banding" problem?

Thanks,
:Dave F.

Bruce Volden

10-03-2006, 7:25 PM

Can you elaborate on tuning the power supply?

Thanks again, Mike[/QUOTE]

I have had to increase the DC voltage a couple of times. Wether it was just the natural attenuation / degradation of the DC power supply or what I don't know. I just clampped my VOM to the out put of the PS and turned the "pot" til I got a steady 30VDC~it actually made a difference!!

Also Rodne is dead on about having "good power". I have my machines plugged into filtered AC line regulators that I bought from APC years back.
Can't go wrong with "smooth" power!!! I caught the power problems with several hard drives failing on my PC's, so I also have some UPS's for smooth power and battery back-up.

Bruce

Mike Mackenzie

10-03-2006, 8:46 PM

To all;

Actually the tuning I was referring to is to the RF power supply inside the tube. These are not adjustable in the field or by UN-qualified people.
But it does make a difference in the mode of the laser which contributes to the banding issues.

There is a 48 volt supply in most systems that may or may not be needing adjustments as well. However this is not as critical. What we have found is belt tension has a lot to do with banding. Please do not go and start adjusting your belts. You should have a qualified tech dial in the tensions so you don't cause any damage to other parts.

Steve Spaulding

10-04-2006, 11:31 AM

Banding is inherent to tubes to one point or another, and indeed, becuse tubes are not equal in any sense at first manufacture they will vary.

Some tubes band, some don't and some might, someday.

Purchse 5, 30 watt tubes at any level and they will all vary slightly. (couple 36 watts, 1 at 38, etc)

Now place them in different environments, each with different electrical sources and expand the variables. 110 versus 220, large manufacturer on same power grid, with/without Line Conditioner, etc.

The 50 watt level tub from DEOS has been a issue, have some in my area doing great and have had a couple that have not done so well and GCC has stood by warranty commitments for all customers.

Yet, because the 50 watt quality is something GCC cannot control (as it is a Coherent product) GCC has deemed it appropriate to offer an upgrade to a better performing 60 watt for a very, very fair price, in addition to standing by the warranty and continuing to replace the 50 watt tube.

Forums are open discussion, and certainly this one has always been objective and fair, most importantly Professional....so I make this point even though I feel it steps out of my defined role, and addresses a point made by someone who I respect for Professionalism.

It's a Big World out there folks and all any of us can do is try and manage it as best as we can.

Proposing that a demand is to be made to upgrade to a different product is a natural thought, everyone wants to be treated fairly.

Certainly understandable when an end user customer has this thought.

Yet, I can ilustrate a customer issue on a 6 year old machine, (competitor to GCC not manufactured in the Mountains) that has had 3 tube failures across 4 years, with the least expensive repair bill right about $2400.

Should the care for the customer (demand or not) also not warrant these tubes being replaced for free?

GCC is trying to offer solutions and trust me, even at the $2500, is losing money in doing so.

Appreciate the feedback and please forgive me for my over stepping my bounds as a supplier.

Respectfully to all.

Steve Spaulding
www.isssales.com (http://www.isssales.com)

Mike Null

10-04-2006, 1:42 PM

It is a of no concern whether GCC is making or losing money on this situation. What is important is whether they stand behind their product in light of the miserable performance it's produced so far.

GCC has produced an abundance of machines that perform as advertised so it is not an issue of consistent poor quality. It is an issue of whether they will come forward and do the right thing by this customer.

The other problems which have occurred and the reluctant service they've encountered are not representative of a company which claims to be a world leader in the industry.

I am among those who believe an new 60 watt machine with a new warranty is in order.

Steve Spaulding

10-04-2006, 2:08 PM

Appreciate the thought, and agreed profit has no place in service, commitment and responsibility are the key component.

My point was more in line with the warranty of the 50 watt tube is being applied, the 60 watt is simply a second option.

Again, we have 50 watts in the field doing just fine, so again environmental influences still need to be considered as if not, the cause to the problem just might only be masked, and not solved.

Do very much appreciate your response and view on the correct course of action in regards to the situation.

Feedback is important for growth.

Steve

Mike Mackenzie

10-04-2006, 2:13 PM

Yet, I can ilustrate a customer issue on a 6 year old machine, (competitor to GCC not manufactured in the Mountains) that has had 3 tube failures across 4 years, with the least expensive repair bill right about $2400.

Should the care for the customer (demand or not) also not warrant these tubes being replaced for free?

Steve,

The difference here is six months and six years!!

Steve Spaulding

10-04-2006, 4:10 PM

Mike,

Just to be clear.

Actually the machine is 6 years old as this year, the tube issues happened early on and continued consistently through year 4. Still underpowered at present day but functioning.

It is my understanding the dialog cotinues on the 2 solutions, which of course is a replacment tube that does not band at the 50 watt level and then the offer of the upgrade to the 60 which we find to be a solid tube.

Bottom line, I am confident that we both strive to reach agreeable solutions that assit the customer towards satisfation.

Respectfully,

Steve

Rodne Gold

10-04-2006, 4:18 PM

There is plainly an issue with Deos tubes in the Explorers , we have gone thru at least 10-12 of them in 2.5 yrs over 3 Explorers. I am in South Africa , so clearly its not an environemental issue as its happening on the other side of the world to the USA
Mostly GCC have come to the party , but not to the extent they should have , our last tube failed within 6 months of it being replaced and there was/is some issue about replacing it , cos the machine was nearing the end of its warrantee.
It is not my fault the tube went , and if there is an 18 month warrantee on a tube , it should extend to a replacement tube regardless

We run 3 Explorers and 3 spirits , we bought the spirits cos of the Explorers reliability issues as we do a huge amount of laser work and the downtime with tube issues was hurting us. We are also not convinced , as experience has shown us, that the swapped tubes will have any more reliability than the original ones The platform itself is superb , its let down by the tubes.
I do not believe these failures are a result of GCC's implemention of the Deos tube , they have tried everything on their side to fix it , replacing power supplies , using double power supplies, new motherboards , extra cooling fans etc etc.
Evidently this Deos problem is not just confined to Gcc as others here that use the same tube have also reported reliability issues although I cant swear blind to this.

However I think that asking the original poster to pay $2500 to fix something that is not their fault sucks and there is no ways that it can be justified. Gcc must make good and them or their local agents should not try to weasel out of this. Let them fight it out with coherent , isolate the customer from this. I do not believe that swapping the tubes (option 1) is going to fix the problem , IMHO it will just deleay the onset of another failure.
I would actually suggest replacing the Explorer with the synrad sourced Spirit equivalent.

Jim A. Walters

10-05-2006, 8:04 AM

Dave look at the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=9415&highlight=banding

There is a pic of a black marble lasered photo that shows banding.

Jim

Frank Corker

10-05-2006, 8:07 PM

That picture is actually called a 'moire pattern'. Go here to read about it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern

There are some art packages that will assist you to remove them automatically.

Dave Fifield

10-09-2006, 2:23 PM

Thanks Jim/Frank! I understand now.... :)

:Dave F.

mike wallis

10-09-2006, 4:09 PM

Actually the 'moire pattern' that is shown in the photo is not a result of the editing of the photo but a result of using the "Clipart" selection in the dithering portion of the Epilog print driver. If I use the "Photograph" selection in the print driver the moire pattern goes away.

The pattern I was having issues with in the photo was vertical banding and was resolved with belt adjustment.

You are correct though moire patterns can show up especially on scanned newspapers and other production type printing.

Joe Pelonio

10-11-2006, 1:13 PM

Can you elaborate on tuning the power supply?

Thanks again, Mike

Also Rodne is dead on about having "good power". I have my machines plugged into filtered AC line regulators that I bought from APC years back.
Can't go wrong with "smooth" power!!! I caught the power problems with several hard drives failing on my PC's, so I also have some UPS's for smooth power and battery back-up.

Bruce[/quote]
Interesting thing,

I just installed a voltage regulator this morning, and since I've been running the whole time it has been indicating that it's decreasing the voltage because it's too high coming in from the outlet.

Bruce Volden

10-11-2006, 1:29 PM

Interesting thing,

I just installed a voltage regulator this morning, and since I've been running the whole time it has been indicating that it's decreasing the voltage because it's too high coming in from the outlet.[/QUOTE]

Joe,

I live in the country on the plains of South Dakota, out here most of us are on "rural electric" cooperatives. They always had a tendency to "sag" during times of need (AC season et al). Just thought I had better get something to filter, monitor, regulate, and adjust the voltage so I went with UPS's and regulators. Have not lost anything yet..knock, knock!!

Bruce

Joe Pelonio

10-11-2006, 2:35 PM

I just wonder what effect the higher power might have had, if any, on the laser before I added the regulator.

When we have a heat spell I was getting power failures of brief duration
nearly every afternoon. Just enough to stop my equipment and make the PC's reboot after the UPS saved the files. Here in Bellevue there's a huge commercial construction boom going on and I suspect that the power company has not upgraded to handle the load when everyone's using the A/C. Of course that doesn't happen that often here, normally a week or two at 85 is about it, this summer we went over 100 several times. When I move the shop to the house I'm going to look for a bigger UPS that will allow the laser to run up to 5 minutes, if there's such a thing.

Mitchell Andrus

10-11-2006, 3:24 PM

The UPS may give you enough time to have an automatic generator kick in, but run the laser for a few minutes.... wow, it'll take a whole lot of batteries out in the garage to do that.

Power failure - UPS kick in - Generator start and kick in - UPS disconnect.... Yikes!

Mitch

Joe Pelonio

10-11-2006, 3:48 PM

If that's the case I'll have to forget it, not that much room in the garage
since that's where my woodworking stuff will be.

I do have a generator (not automatic) and I figured 5 minutes would allow me to press stop when it was at a natural stopping place, turn it off, connect the generator and resend the job with the part already done deleted. The trouble is when you are engraving a full 12x18 and it stops in the middle then you restart it's hard to get it perfect and there could be overlay where it's deeper or bolder from two passes. Better to just waste the $10 piece of material than to invest thousands in backup.

Usually we only lose power at the house 2-3 times a year from windstorms, but we have so many big trees around that the power co. won't make repairs until the wind has stopped so it could be out many hours.

Dave Jones

10-11-2006, 5:57 PM

APC does make 20A and 30A UPS devices that sell for a bit over $1,000. But most UPS manufacturers don't like the UPSes to be used with inductive loads (such as devices with motors in them) because the surges that can happen when power is switched.

If you get serious about it you might call their applications engineers and see which models they suggest.

Bruce Volden

10-11-2006, 6:47 PM

In the past I have talked with the good folks @ APC. In short was told that they had nothing to offer to fit my needs. I'm thinking that with what I already have I should make do pretty well. I have spent around $500 maybe a little more~if nothing else I have peace of mind even if I have a job that dumps. I just say a short prayer when I'm doing some of these fancy grade premier shotgun stocks I seem do get before hunting season. If even one of the stocks gets ruined I'm sure I'm looking at $500~~~YIKES. Just finished up 17 stocks (Ruger Red Labels, Benellis, Beretta.....).

Bruce