Fall is here. Time to think about how to heat the shop this winter

[Jeff Kerr]

Well I was hoping to put this off another year, but I just hate the thought of not using the shop in the winter months because of no heat in the shop.

So, I am looking for input on ways to do this.

Here is the setup:

24'x32' fully insulated detached pole barn. ~10' ceilings (6 inches in walls. 12 inches overhead.
2 car overhead door. Single man door.
Concregte slab floor.
Elec and LP for sources.
Hobby use. Really ony get to work on the weekends and a few nights. Won't be out there every day even if it is heated.At first I thought I would go with a LP forced air unit overhead. (Hot Dawg or the like.) Then I started reading more about the radient heat tubes and thought that would be the better way to go. What I liked about both of these was the fact that I could direct vent the combustion air from the outside.

I liked the radient because of the fact that it heated the objects and I wouldn't be moving air when I didn't need to. Maybe I read too many threads on this stuff over time, but I thought that forced air introduced humidity to the equation which introduced rust to the tools. I am not looking forward to having to topcoat all my wrenches etc. just to keep them from rusting.

Has anyone got a radient tube heater in a setup similar to this? If so, do you like it, would you do it again? Was it worth the cost?

To make matters even more difficult I have a family member in the HVAC business that said they can get me a used home forced air furnace for nothing when the replace one at a home. I may need to replace a few parts and it won't be new and won't be as efficient but it is free.

That has me wondering is a forced air unit really going to cause enough of an issue to cause rusting on the equipment? Another upside to this is that it can handle AC in the summer as well.


I figure if I go with the free forced air I won't run it until I plan on being in the shop. So far in the 3 years that I have had the shop it has never gotten below 38F without any heat source.

I figure I go out early and turn on the furnace, go back to the house for breakfast and it should be pretty warm in no time. However with the radient I figure I would leave the thermostat set for 50F when not in use and maybe turn it up the night before I want to work so that it has time to warm up.

Thoughts?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jeff..........The one concern you might run into with radiant tubes is the safe distance they can be from any flammable object. I considered those when I was designing my shop. My shop has 10' ceilings. I'm over 6' tall. I really didn't realize how thin my hair was getting on top until late one night at a hospital.....I went to the outside smoking area that was heated with radiant tubes. I soon noticed the hot spot on my head and looked a little closer in the mirror the next morning. Yup......the snow on the mountain top is getting a little thinner..........Must be caused by global warming...........or genetics.....:D

[Tom Hintz]

I am seriously looking at one of the split heat/AC heat pump deals for my shop. Having the compressor stuff outside and just the heat exchanger inside is very attractive. It's pricey (so far anyway) in the $3000 range but it would handle all of the heating/cooling problems without worry about transfering dust and fumes to the living part of the house. I also see there are some stand-alone heat/ac units and am looking at them somewhat. I need to make up my mind soon though.

[Ken Werner]

Jeff, my shop is consideraly smaller than yours [16 x 24] but I heat it with a wall mounted Empire furnace. This draws air in from outside, combusts and exhausts it all through the wall. No fan, the heat circulates passively. It runs on LP, and has no electric requirements. During the winter [cold here in central NY] I leave it set at about 50, and turn it up when working. I couldn't be happier with it. Heating costs about $100/mo during the really cold weather. I'm an amateur, not out there full time. I got my unit used. I'd suggest looking into a similar unit, if the BTUs are adequate for the space you have.
Ken

[lou sansone]

Jeff
my shop is somewhat larger than yours and located in NE CT. I use a Kerr forced hot air furnace and like it. If I had it to do over, I would consider radiant heat. I use about 500 gal per heating season and keep my shop warm all winter long ~ 68 to 70 degree F

Lou

[Kyle Kraft]

Jeff,

To combat rust, I recommend keeping the shop at around 55 degrees all winter long, and keeping the shop closed up as much as humanly possible. The danger is letting warm, moist air contact your cold machinery tables. The greater the delta T the worse the condensation.

[Matt Meiser]

Jeff, Your shop and climate are very similar to mine. I use the Hot Dawg style heater and am very happy with it. Mine is a 75K BTU model vented out the side wall. Last winter I kept the shop at 45 whenever I wasn't using it unless I had something being glued up or drying. When I was working I kept it about 62, except when using plastic resin glue or finishing with WB laquer, then I warmed it up to about 72. Keeping the shop at 45 allows it to heat up fast when you turn up the heat.

[Rennie Heuer]

I use the Hot Dawg style heater and am very happy with it. Mine is a 75K BTU model vented out the side wall. Last winter I kept the shop at 45 whenever I wasn't using it unless I had something being glued up or drying. When I was working I kept it about 62, except when using plastic resin glue or finishing with WB laquer, then I warmed it up to about 72. Keeping the shop at 45 allows it to heat up fast when you turn up the heat.

Hi Matt,

Ditto on the Hot Dawg - great little unit. I keep my shop about 50-55 all winter. Our winters are not terribly harsh and the shop is well insulated. 55 Might seem high, but the LOML really likes not having to put on a coat to do the laundry (which occupies one corner of the garage/shop). I can bring the shop up to 65 very quickly when needed. What's really nice is I can bring it up to 72 and hold it there for a few hours, then shut it down (no open flames) open a door and window, and spray finish. I wait for the air to clear completely, close everything up, and allow the heat to come back on as the temp drops below 55.

[Chris Barton]

Would a pellet stove be a possibility for you? They seem like a very viable solution for you kind of situation and are perfect for infrequent use.

[Bill Grumbine]

Jeff, I've been using a Reverberray radiant tube since the winter of 1999-2000 in my shop, which is just a little bit smaller than yours (20' x 30') and not very well insulated. I have 6" in the roof, which is peaked, and 3" in parts of the walls. I also have a half wall of concrete and three sets of double doors on one side, as it was a garage in its previous use.

I like the tube, and it has done very well. Ken makes a good point about minimum clearances needed for combustibles. The top of my head is just about two inches or so above the minumum height. Alas, there are no combustible materials left there, so I just get a warm spot. It does make for some crimping in where I can put things, but overall I have been happy with it.

I have plans to supplement it with radiant heat from our outdoor furnace, which we installed last year for our house, but I have yet to decide on what I am going to use for heat in the shop itself. I have the tubes installed underground to bring the hot water to the shop, but that is as far as I have gotten.

Good luck with it, and if you have more questions on Reverberray I will be glad to try and answer them for you.

Bill

[Mark Cothren]

Anybody use a wood-burning stove to heat their shop?

[Jon Shively]

Yep. (I sure do, had to enter more characters, wouldn't take just yep!)

[Al Willits]

Tried the wood stove years back, took to long to get the garage warm was my main problem, there's also the wood to get, cut, stack and then ash to get rid of.
I put a home furnace in, now have better heat distribution and filtered air.

I might see a small unit to burn scraps of wood in, wouldn't be as much heat but would be a way to get rid of scrap lumber.

Al

[Bill Grumbine]

Anybody use a wood-burning stove to heat their shop?

Hi Mark

I had a woodstove in my old shop, but it might not be the best example. The old shop was a rental building, concrete floors, walls, and roof, with no insulation at all. There was one door, a 9' garage door, and next to that a huge steel framed single pane window. The stove was an old one from the 1970s and while it looked pretty, it was as leaky and inefficient as could be.

The shop was roasting hot near the stove, and freezing by the time I got on the other side. I never had any problems with dust or finishes, but I did not do any spraying. The biggest drawback was getting the fire going and getting the place warm enough to work. By the time I got it warm, it was almost time to go home again. I suppose a better stove in a better insulated building would perform much more efficiently.

Bill

[Rennie Heuer]

I might see a small unit to burn scraps of wood in, wouldn't be as much heat but would be a way to get rid of scrap lumber.

Al

I have a much better use for the small scrap. I bought a small 'fire-pit', one of those metal, roll-a-round jobs you can get at the big box.

A crisp fall evening, laid back in an Adirondack chair with the LOML at my side, a glass of good wine in my hand, and a toasty warm fire at our feet.

[Greg Sznajdruk]

Mark:

What ever you decide to use run it by your Insurance Company first. All insurance companies are different but mine would not insure my shop with a radiant tube heater. I'm a restoration contractor we do work for insurance companies exclusively, so we always check with the carrier before expending funds.

Greg

[Al Willits]

"""""
A crisp fall evening, laid back in an Adirondack chair with the LOML at my side, a glass of good wine in my hand, and a toasty warm fire at our feet.
""""""""

We do smores and hot choclate here, got the Coleman portable pit for x-mas and your right, nice to just sit by a fire and relax...even with the wife...:D

Al

[Dan Oelke]

Second that on checking with Insurance company. If I remember correctly - a while back mine told me that *any* solid fuel was a no-no in a garage. Reason given was that garage was commonly used to store gas and the open flame and the fact that a solid fuel stove wouldn't go out quickly was a bad combination. A pellet or corn stove does go out within minutes of turning them off, but they had it all lumped together. I'm not sure that some other open-flame source wouldn't be just as bad, but I guess I don't make the rules and the rules don't have to make sense. :)

[Mark Cothren]

Thanks for the info... checking with insurance guy now... we burn wood in our fireplace thru the winter, and I have a lot of cutoffs from turning stock that would easily fuel a woodstove. So wood for burning isn't an issue at my house.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a few more questions... does the top of the pipe *have* to be so many feet above the highest roof peak? Or is that just a "best practice" so that you get plenty of air flow to it? If you know you can stop lower than the peak and still have plenty of air flow, are there other reasons to conform?

[Al Killian]

I have a different type of furnace. It is a Black Gold waste oils heater, the oil come from local farms and waste oil from resturaunts.It doesnt cost much for the electric to run it. The cost was about 3k installed with 40 foot of ducting. I keep my shop at 60 all winter long even if no one is in there.Just figured I add this as a different option.

[Rick Schubert]

I have a Hot Dawg heater and keep my shop around 45 degrees when not in use. Then when I want to work I fire up my wood stove an hour or two before I'm ready which brings the shop up into the 60's.

The coldest two months, Jan & Dec, I shut everything down and catch up on my woodworking magazines.

Rick

[Rich Stevens]

I posted this over at Woodnet a few weeks ago.

Here it is... hope it helps...

I faced EXACTLY every scenario you spelt out in your message. Only one difference - I live in Melbourne Australia. Our winters are cold here with heating mandatory if one wants to stay comfortable. I struggled with no heating in my shop for the best part of 5 years and I decided a few months ago that enough was enough and I was going to deal with it.

Over the years I considered many solutions. Propane Gas? (moisture and open flame - no way!), Natural Gas (involved a running a gas line from the house and professional installation - too much $$ and I'm still left with an open flame and moisture issues - no way!), kerosene portable heater (fumes and open flame - no way!). Sub Floor heating (not possible as I'm using my already built 2 car garage). Wood stove using timber offcuts (romantic but the heat isn't instant, messy and has open flame - besides my house insurer would love this - no way!)

I was left with only one other source which was electricity. I know electricity is expensive but my decision basically came down to a cost vs benefit decision. On the minus side was the ongoing running cost. On the plus side - no installation costs, clean, doesn't blow dust around, it has a thermostat and can be timed.

The solution was to use wall mounted radiant heaters that plug into standard 240V wall sockets. I went for the brand NOBO which comes from Norway.

Nobo Heaters (http://www.nobo.com.au/html/Shared/Content_Products_ESeries.htm)

Using their ready reckoner I worked out I needed two, 2KW wall heaters. Actually I needed 5kW which meant getting 2 1/2 large heaters, but chose to minimise my costs (for fear of over providing the solution).

I did a bit of shopping around but in the end opted to buy a couple of brand new, but supeceded models for about 30% less than current retail. I spent A$650 for both units (about US$480).

The other added advantage with this solution is I can unplug and unscrew both heaters and take them with me when we move house in a few years time. The only evidence of these heaters will be four small screw holes in the wall!

They're now installed and I have the cosiest workshop ever - the heat is dry and instantaneous. My shop heats up in less than 20 minutes with both units running simultaneously. I am conscious of 4kW of power being consumed by both units but I figure with careful usage I should be able to stay on top of my energy costs. I am yet to receive my first heating bill since these units were installed - I am not sure how much my electricity costs have gone up!

In the meantime I have been careful with how much heating energy I use. I also decided to have effective insulation insulation and I also routinely turn off the heaters about 30 minutes before I shut shop.

Both thermostats are set to 19 degrees celcius which is comfortable without getting too warm. I still use warm clothing to stay comfortable.

When looking at the heating (irrespective of what type of heater you choose) you must NOT overlook the importance of insulation and sealing of air gaps in your shop. I mentioned earlier that my current shop was my 2 car brick garage and it did not have any proper insulation or air tight doors. When I first installed my heaters I was rather taken aback by how long it took to heat up the shop even with both heaters running 100% of the time. In short, they were struggling to keep my shop warm. The problem was clearly the amount of heat loss I was experiencing due to inadequate insulation. This had to be fixed.

The problem of heat loss was compounded by a rather large window at the rear of the shop measuring 12' x 5' and not double glazed. Warm air would go cold the instant it touched the glass.

Solution - double glaze it. I did this with 5/32" thick float glass set into the window frame rebate. The gap between both panes is about 2 1/2". The glass itself cost me as much as one the price of one heater.

The next step was to insulate the garage roof space with glass fibre insulation. This solution alone made the BIGGEST difference to the thermal performance of the shop.

I also insulated the inside of my garage door with expanded polystyrene custom cut to my specifications. This also helped. It is amazing how thermally 'dead' or inert polystyrene is - it just doesn't hold any "cold" or "hot" in it. Hard to describe, but hopefully you understand.

I think my insulation program worked - I can now very comfortably rely on one heater for most of the time to keep my shop warm and dry. The "dry" aspect is a nice feeling given Melbourne winters are also wet.

I am attaching three images which show roughly what I did.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/ricgstevens/IMG_0722_H.jpg

Installing 2" thick polystyrene into the garage door pockets

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/ricgstevens/IMG_0617_H.jpg

Glimpses of both NOBO heaters - white panels mounted on the wall - one below the large window and the other one is next to my combination machine. Each panel is about 5' long. (sorry this was the only photo I had which had both heaters in frame)

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/ricgstevens/IMG_0647_H.jpg

And lastly, how I installed double glazing to my existing windows. This really is a crude form of double glazing but it does the job for me.

Hope this helps.

Rich