New Jet Sharpener (aka Tormek)

[Steve Kohn]

I have recently become interested in woodturning. One thing I have already learned is that you need to keep your tools sharp. I have been looking at the Tormek (very expensive) and now the new Jet equivalent. Has anyone got an opinion on the new Jet sharpener on lathe tools?

[Jeff Farris]

The most important jig for most woodturners is the jig to do side grinds on bowl and spindle gouges. Since that TORMEK patent is still in effect, Jet could not copy it exactly as they did with the older jigs. The most important difference between the two jigs is that the TORMEK jig is one piece that is fixed firmly on the Universal Support. The Jet two piece design is rather difficult to use, as the pivot point is resting in a pocket and the rotation of the grindstone is trying to pull the jig out of the pocket constantly.

As I mentioned in another thread, the Jet will slow down considerably slower than the TORMEK under a normal working load, making shaping a gouge a time consuming job.

Jet has no jig to sharpen skews. The TORMEK System offers a jig that insures identical bevels on both sides of your skew, and it will grind either straight grinds or radius grinds.

[Corey Hallagan]

I use a Wolverine Jig and I like it fine, however I recently watch a Tormek demo and the Jet Demo on the woodworking channel at the recent IWF. I was very impressed with the Tormek demo. I just can't afford it or the Jet at this point. Maybe some day.

Corey

[Mike Wenzloff]

Then again, Jeff, the Tormek jigs will work on the Jet...correct? Aren't all the jigs pretty much interchangable?

While the Jet is dumping their product on the market--er, introductory pricing--its cost plus a few Tormek jigs is cost effective.

What is largely unknown is how long the Jet will last in a working environment. There have been days I have used my Tormek for 6-8 hours and then one of the boys has turned around and used it more. The Jet's universal motor is both a strength and potential weakness.

Take care, Mike
still a happy Tormek user...

[Chris Barton]

There have been a couple of lively debates over the past couple of months on this forum regarding the new jet vs Tormek. From what I have seen I think the Jet will be a good reliable machine and they have priced it to compete with the Tormek with some significant advantages. All that said, if you want to keep turning tools sharp what you would be most likely pleased with is a Wolverine Jig...

[Jeff Farris]

Then again, Jeff, the Tormek jigs will work on the Jet...correct? Aren't all the jigs pretty much interchangable?

While the Jet is dumping their product on the market--er, introductory pricing--its cost plus a few Tormek jigs is cost effective.

What is largely unknown is how long the Jet will last in a working environment. There have been days I have used my Tormek for 6-8 hours and then one of the boys has turned around and used it more. The Jet's universal motor is both a strength and potential weakness.

Take care, Mike
still a happy Tormek user...

Okay, let's examine that idea for a second. If you buy a Jet with their Woodturner's kit, then turn around and buy the TORMEK SVD-185 for gouges and the SVS-50 for skews, you have just paid for a jig you won't use (the Jet side grind jig). That's roughly 60 dollars of the 100 you saved by buying the Jet in the first place. TORMEK's package pricing discounts narrow the gap between the prices by a considerable amount. Make sure you compare apples to apples when you get ready to buy a complete system.

The longevity of the Jet is not completely unknown. TORMEK has an extensive testing laboratory and has done some very interesting side-by-side comparisons of the two machines. In one, with a 7.4 ft.lb. load applied to the grindstone, the Jet motor reached a surface temperature of 230 degrees after an hour -- nearly double the surface temperature of the TORMEK after the same amount of time (122). The windings just won't stand up to those temperatures for long.

In another test, the same load was applied to each machine and the life of the drive wheel was examined. The Jet drive wheel disintegrated after 3 hours. The TORMEK wheel lasted ten times longer.

One thing which hasn't been mentioned much anywhere is that the feet on the Jet are not properly placed. They're inside relative to the grind stone, meaning that when you apply pressure to the stone, you are levering the other side of the machine into the air. I think that may be one reason they're including the drawer base -- so the machine is less likely to tip. But, as the TORMEK users here will verify, you have to turn the machine around from time to time, depending on the type of tools you're sharpening. Why add extra weight to something you're going to have to pick up several times a day?

As I mentioned in the other thread, Jet's variable speed sounds good, but doesn't work. When load is applied, the DC motor slows down significantly more than TORMEK's AC motor. Working speed under identical loads is 37 RPM for the Jet compared to 58 RPM for the TORMEK.

Even at 100 dollars less, the Jet is no "bargain".

[Chris Barton]

Okay, let's examine that idea for a second. If you buy a Jet with their Woodturner's kit, then turn around and buy the TORMEK SVD-185 for gouges and the SVS-50 for skews, you have just paid for a jig you won't use (the Jet side grind jig). That's roughly 60 dollars of the 100 you saved by buying the Jet in the first place. TORMEK's package pricing discounts narrow the gap between the prices by a considerable amount. Make sure you compare apples to apples when you get ready to buy a complete system.

The longevity of the Jet is not completely unknown. TORMEK has an extensive testing laboratory and has done some very interesting side-by-side comparisons of the two machines. In one, with a 7.4 ft.lb. load applied to the grindstone, the Jet motor reached a surface temperature of 230 degrees after an hour -- nearly double the surface temperature of the TORMEK after the same amount of time (122). The windings just won't stand up to those temperatures for long.

In another test, the same load was applied to each machine and the life of the drive wheel was examined. The Jet drive wheel disintegrated after 3 hours. The TORMEK wheel lasted ten times longer.

One thing which hasn't been mentioned much anywhere is that the feet on the Jet are not properly placed. They're inside relative to the grind stone, meaning that when you apply pressure to the stone, you are levering the other side of the machine into the air. I think that may be one reason they're including the drawer base -- so the machine is less likely to tip. But, as the TORMEK users here will verify, you have to turn the machine around from time to time, depending on the type of tools you're sharpening. Why add extra weight to something you're going to have to pick up several times a day?

As I mentioned in the other thread, Jet's variable speed sounds good, but doesn't work. When load is applied, the DC motor slows down significantly more than TORMEK's AC motor. Working speed under identical loads is 37 RPM for the Jet compared to 58 RPM for the TORMEK.

Even at 100 dollars less, the Jet is no "bargain".

Jeff,

I think your input in this thread is very valuable but, perhaps you should "out" yourself before you say anything. You do have a vested interest in this topic and not everyone knows that...

[Eddie Darby]

I would wait, if at all possible, to see how well the Jet machine is recieved by consumers. Right now is too soon to tell, but you can be sure that you will have a better picture of the new Jet machine from people who have used it, under various operating conditions, in the near future. It may be that each will have it's own unique features that will serve one purpose better than the other. ie. perhaps continuous use vs. occasional use ...
With time I am sure you will have some posters here on this forum who will be able to better inform you on what are the pros and cons of each machine, and which of the interchangeable jigs is best to use. It may turn out that people will own jigs from both companies.
If you can't wait, then I would try to contact a Woodcraft store that sells both machines, and see if they will let them be test driven, so to speak. Barring that, then the Tormek, though more expensive, has been around for a while and is a known quantity.
I should disclose that I am a happy owner of 2 Tormeks, and that I am not involved in the selling of either machine.

[Steve Rowe]

Jeff,

I think your input in this thread is very valuable but, perhaps you should "out" yourself before you say anything. You do have a vested interest in this topic and not everyone knows that...

I respectfully disagree with this. This forum has allowed the president of Grizzly, the EZ Smart system and probably several others to provide input on woodworking equipment comparisons and provide both sides of a story and I see no reason why Jeff should not be accorded the same courtesy. If someone has actual facts to compare, that is exactly the input that was requested by the thread originator. Jeffs posts provide factual comparison between the two machines.

I looked at the Jet at the IWF and quite frankly; wondered why a variable speed was even necessary on a slow speed grinder. It appears to add an additional reliability concern, i.e. - more stuff to break. Additionally, given the price difference between the two (even with the recent price drop on the Jet) I would opt for the machine with the proven track record versus the one with no track record. I would much rather spend my hard earned dollars and cry once rather than spend it twice and cry twice. I have learned this lesson on multiple occasions.

Steve

[Eddie Darby]

"Jeff,

I think your input in this thread is very valuable but, perhaps you should "out" yourself before you say anything. You do have a vested interest in this topic and not everyone knows that..."
===========================
Perhaps instead of the word "out" the words "point out"....
---------------------
Jeff,

I think your input in this thread is very valuable but, perhaps you should "point out" yourself before you say anything. You do have a vested interest in this topic and not everyone knows that...

[Chris Barton]

I respectfully disagree with this. This forum has allowed the president of Grizzly, the EZ Smart system and probably several others to provide input on woodworking equipment comparisons and provide both sides of a story and I see no reason why Jeff should not be accorded the same courtesy. If someone has actual facts to compare, that is exactly the input that was requested by the thread originator. Jeffs posts provide factual comparison between the two machines.

I looked at the Jet at the IWF and quite frankly; wondered why a variable speed was even necessary on a slow speed grinder. It appears to add an additional reliability concern, i.e. - more stuff to break. Additionally, given the price difference between the two (even with the recent price drop on the Jet) I would opt for the machine with the proven track record versus the one with no track record. I would much rather spend my hard earned dollars and cry once rather than spend it twice and cry twice. I have learned this lesson on multiple occasions.

Steve

By all means, I agree. I think Jeff's input on this topic is very valuable, just as I said in my post. But, it is also true that Jeff has a vested interest in this topic. The others you have mentioned are very open regarding their affiliations...

[Jake Helmboldt]

Steve I disagree. Shiraz makes it known he is part of Grizzly. I have no idea what Jeff's vested interests/affiliations are outside of the previous post bringing the issue up.

JH

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Steve I disagree. Shiraz makes it known he is part of Grizzly. I have no idea what Jeff's vested interests/affiliations are outside of the previous post bringing the issue up.

JH
The thing is, if you just started here, you wouldn't know who Shiraz is, either. I wholeheartedly agree that those with an affiliation should identify themselves on every post. It makes a big difference on how I read the post.

Jeff, it would be good if you were to identify yourself so the thread could get back on track.

[Tom Hintz]

I have been thrashing the new Jet Wet Sharpener for just a few days now but so far, have seen no problems with it. I really like the variable speed and have not noticed it slow down under any normal pressures. I have reshaped a few gouges a bit and that had no impact on the speed of the stone. I suppose if I really stood up on the wheel, I could slow it down if I wanted, of course I can slow down my Tormek as well.
Anyway, I am not through testing (playing hard as some call it) but so far, so (very) good for the Jet.

[Steve Rowe]

Steve I disagree. Shiraz makes it known he is part of Grizzly. I have no idea what Jeff's vested interests/affiliations are outside of the previous post bringing the issue up.

JH

In all fairness, Jeff has done this on multiple occasions in other Tormek related threads in SMC. He does not identify himself as the president of Sharptools USA in his posts everytime, nor does Shiraz identify himself as the president of Grizzly in his posts everytime. Perhaps the only difference is that Jeff is not as well known on this forum as Shiraz. Regardless, I believe the criticism is unwarranted (at least in this case).
Steve

[Jerry White]

Jeff,

I think your input in this thread is very valuable but, perhaps you should "out" yourself before you say anything. You do have a vested interest in this topic and not everyone knows that...

Chris, you bring up a good point on protocol. I'm sure Jeff simply forgot a lead-in statement, as he has been good in the past to include infromation about his affiliation with Tormek. However, the information is all prominent in Jeff's profile, for all to see, so there should be no confusion.

And Jeff, thank you for your contributions and observations...always welcome.

Jerry

[Mike Wenzloff]

Okay, let's examine that idea for a second. If you buy a Jet with their Woodturner's kit, then turn around and buy the TORMEK SVD-185 for gouges and the SVS-50 for skews, you have just paid for a jig you won't use (the Jet side grind jig). ...
Jeff, if we were comparing apples to apples as regards the cost efficiency, we would buy the base unit and individually purchase the jigs.

Because I know what would happen if we bought the Tormek and the woodturning kit and the Jet and its woodturning kit. Your $60/$40 example evaporates completely. It would make the comparison very lopsided in favor of the Jet, financially.

So what is the price of the Jet vs. Tormek...
Jet $299 [introductory price]
Tormek $409 [according to your web site]

Purchasing the Tormek Wood Turning Kit for either machine $240
$110 savings if the Tormek Wood Turning kit was bought bought for the Jet instead of buying theirs at all.

A $110 difference matters to some, not to others. I own a Tormek. And if I was buying a machine today? I would still buy the Tormek. And heck, I bought all the doodads I could use for the T-machine back when. It is a significant investment to make and using bad math even when "not much" is involved trivializes the choices people need to make.

I am a satisfied consumer. I do use the thing very hard. I do not have confidence in the Jet at this point.

Take care, Mike

[Bart Leetch]

"I use a Wolverine Jig and I like it fine" Corey said a mouthful with that statement & I agree with it. I have one on a 6" Ace 3450 RPM grinder with an 120 grit aluminum oxide wheel & a standard 80 grit wheel & with clean wheels & a light touch I am able to shape the tool on the left side 60 & fine tune it on the right side 120 grit aluminum oxide. The key here is to use a diamond tool & keep the wheel clean & unloaded. Loaded dirty wheels = heat the enemy of good sharpening. I know they say it doesn't hurt high speed tool but I don't like to see dark blue or purple tool edges.

With a Wolverine jig & a regular grinder with clean wheels you will be able to sharpen all your turning tools & the learning curve is short. It isn't a Tormek & you don't really need a Tormek to do this.

Money, money, money what is it with the thought that we need the biggest or the best or the most costly otherwise it might not work. A lot of what I see on most forums is like this & it seems most of it is for hobby use. My Dad was in the building, cabinet,electrician & plumbing business for 35 years without a lot of this stuff & made many thousands of $$$$$ & it wasn't a hobby.

Ya I would like a Tormek with all the trimmings. But for the every day sharpening of my turning tools would it do any more for me. NO!!!!!:) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D :eek: :

[Mike Wenzloff]

Geez, Bart. Take a pill. Or a deep breath or three.

You ask "Money, money, money what is it with the thought that we need the biggest or the best or the most costly otherwise it might not work."

Mainly, it's other people's money so why get all worked up about it? If you decide it isn't for you. Great. If so, great.

And I think you rightly make the point: for many/most it is a hobby. It's investigation of methods and tools. Not much different than some other hobbies where large sums of money can be spent, the product abandoned and then move on to something else. But again, tis their own money.

We all need to find something which works for us, for what we need to do. I don't know what lathe you have. But I can imagine it cost a few dollars more than the one my grandfather used for a bazillion years. He had an idea that people didn't need more lathe and wasting money on such a tool was just that: a waste. And he turned beautiful work. I doubt his lathe new was more than $50.

Same might go for your tablesaw, if you have one. And a BS. And ...
We all make a decision where to draw the money line. But that's all it is.

Take care, Mike

[Eddie Darby]

"Has anyone got an opinion on the new Jet sharpener on lathe tools?"
============================

Reading Tom Hintz post lead me to ask who is he, which lead me to click on his name ,which took me to the following site:

http://www.newwoodworker.com/

So what does this have to do with the new Jet sharpener?
From this site:

"Coming Soon!
Jet's New Slow Speed Wet Sharpener Review"

I am sure that there will be many more to come!

[Tom Hintz]

Yes, I am going to review the Jet Sharpener, just as I did the Tormek a few years ago. I should also say that since getting the Tormek, I have been a staunch supporter of it. I am also open to new ideas and evolving technologies. I expect that with manufacturers constantly researching new products, there will indeed be many more to come.

[Bart Leetch]

"Geez, Bart. Take a pill. Or a deep breath or three." Ok Mike :D I went back & added some smiley & grinning faces.:D :D :D Just remember I'm not perfect.

[Michael Gibbons]

Tom, I don't believe that there are any tech advances in the Jet that Tormek hasn't already thought of. It's just a copy watered down by a big corporation greed. I can't afford to buy a Jet and compare, But Jeff Farris' livelihood depends on him being able to sell a higher quality machine by pointing out Jets similarites and shortfalls and I'm sure Jeff has put the Jet throught the ringer to find it's weaknesses. And he will be sure to point those out to people like me that have questions about both companies product.

[Jeff Farris]

...Because I know what would happen if we bought the Tormek and the woodturning kit and the Jet and its woodturning kit. Your $60/$40 example evaporates completely. It would make the comparison very lopsided in favor of the Jet, financially.

So what is the price of the Jet vs. Tormek...
Jet $299 [introductory price]
Tormek $409 [according to your web site]

Purchasing the Tormek Wood Turning Kit for either machine $240
$110 savings if the Tormek Wood Turning kit was bought bought for the Jet instead of buying theirs at all.

A $110 difference matters to some, not to others. I own a Tormek. And if I was buying a machine today? I would still buy the Tormek. And heck, I bought all the doodads I could use for the T-machine back when. It is a significant investment to make and using bad math even when "not much" is involved trivializes the choices people need to make.

I am a satisfied consumer. I do use the thing very hard. I do not have confidence in the Jet at this point.

Take care, Mike

First off, let me apologize for not beginning my first reply with my credentials. I assumed that most Creeker's interested in TORMEK would have read my bio enough times to be sick of it by now. This subject has come up before, and I assumed the ground was covered. Apparently not. I make my living by demonstrating and selling TORMEK at The Woodworking Shows and through our website. I most certainly do have a vested interest in making sure people choose TORMEK when they are choosing a water cooled sharpening system. That said, I am not a TORMEK employee. I am an independent retailer, who is free to choose any line on the market to sell. I am totally and completely committed to water cooled sharpening as the best answer for most hobbyist woodworkers (particularly turners). If a company brought out a system that out-classed the TORMEK, I would have to evaluate what to do with my business and my career, but that soul searching is not necessary with this product introduction. Jet simply missed the mark. They responding to a few of the commonly heard complaints about the TORMEK, but fell short on the fundamentals. The wider water tray and the "gutter" on top of the machine may direct water back into the tray, but the gutter traps a lot of crud and makes the top of the machine difficult to clean. The "ergonomic" handle has pockets cut in it that catch water and dross and are virtually impossible to clean out. The handle is so high that fully one inch of stone that would be usable on the TORMEK is unusable on the Jet. They used normal steel hardware instead of stainless (which TORMEK has used for the last 2-1/2 years). I could go on, but I won't right now.

I really didn't mean to go on that rant, but I have decided not to delete it now that it's written down.

Back to Mike's price comparison.

You're right on some points. I had not thought of just buying the Jet and then buying all TORMEK accessories. I was thinking more of buying all Jet except the ones they don't have. Your math misses one point that is a little fuzzy the way SharpToolsUSA pricing is done. If you buy the Starter Package for $409 and then buy the Woodturner's Accessory Kit for $240, you would end up with two stone graders. Also, our Accessory Kit includes the dust cover, but our Woodturners Package does not. Buying the Woodturners Package at $619 compared to buying a Jet and a TORMEK Woodturners Accessory Kit at $539 the difference would be $80, not $110. If you want the cover, then the difference is back to 98.95. A niggle, I know, but lets make sure all our apples are the same variety.

So, what do you get for your extra 80 to 100 dollars, if you go TORMEK?

First on my list is the TEFC continuous duty rated induction motor. It is a significantly better motor for the designed purpose.

I only had one day with the Jet in my shop before I shipped it to Sweden, but in a few hours of grinding, I was pretty convinced that the grindstone was not even close to the TORMEK in terms of longevity or cutting efficiency. My brief, non-scientific evaluation was supported by TORMEK's tests, where one Jet stone removed .45 grams of steel and another removed .89 grams of steel in four minutes, compared to the TORMEK rate of 1.1 grams per 4 minutes.

Their stone grader wears at a very surprising rate. The TORMEK stone grader lasts 20 times longer.

A more stable footing. The feet by the stone are outside the stone, not inside.

A thorough, detailed owner's handbook with hundreds of illustrations and photographs.

A cleaner, simpler design. The Jet's added complexity, with torque adjusters and speed adjusters and plastic side panels would make a simple service much more difficult than on a TORMEK.

The heart of the jig system is the Universal Support. Its relationship to the grindstone is vitally important to the accuracy of your sharpening. The "play" in the Universal Support on a TORMEK has a manufacturing tolerance of one tenth of a millimeter or .004". On two units measured, the Jet's copy of the Universal Support had play of 1.2 millimeters or .047".

Add all that up and it seems to me to be a pretty good buy for an extra Franklin. Mike, I did not mean to sound flip about someone else's hundred dollars. I still don't. I think if a buyer looks carefully and critically at both machines, the choice should be pretty easy.

[Tom Hintz]

Tom, I don't believe that there are any tech advances in the Jet that Tormek hasn't already thought of. It's just a copy watered down by a big corporation greed. I can't afford to buy a Jet and compare, But Jeff Farris' livelihood depends on him being able to sell a higher quality machine by pointing out Jets similarites and shortfalls and I'm sure Jeff has put the Jet throught the ringer to find it's weaknesses. And he will be sure to point those out to people like me that have questions about both companies product.

Michael,
I'd like to have a nickle for every time someone has assured me taht the tormek represents no significant advance over a correctly used grinding wheel or oil stone. While I am certain no one machine is for everyone, I would rather spend some time in the shop with a new piece, using it in every day situations to see how it really shakes out.

[Ray Lancon]

Personally I dont care if Jeff owned Tormek.

If one product IS better than the other......I want to know.

To me, the Tormek is better. Period. No comparison. You can taut the financial virtues of the Jet all you want....All I want to know...is if the damn thing works well, and is it the best one out there.....

Different strokes for different folks. Thats why some folks buy all their wookworking tools at Harbour Frieght.......or some other lo buck discount place. ....The primary mofivation here....is money.

Me? I would rather spend a bit more and go for quality. It lasts longer and you will have a better product. I usually read reviews, speak to folks that have what I want.....and then procure it. And ........its something I have for many years...

And yeah.......I got a Tormek......with all the goodies......and yes it works damn good...

I have been looking into one of those diamond wheels for mine.....http://www.greenvillewoodworkers.com/images/MemberWorkshop/AubreyRogers/DSC02864.JPG

[Chris Barton]

I too own a Tormek and am interested in this thread for a variety of reasons. Foremost is the fact that competition in the market is good for consumers. I am all for a good comparison between the units and look forward to postings by folks that has experience with the new machine. However, I don't view this as just a price issue. I always find it interesting at how people justify the expense of their tools based upon qulaity and how often that justification seems to be very subjective. Somehow I have never seen cost as a quality issue.

[Eddie Darby]

Is it possible that we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here, and that other tool manufacturers such as say for instance Grizzly will be making their own new improved version of the Tormek and Jet?

I wonder when the turning gouge jig patent expires? Or for that matter when will Enie Conover's Camber plane blade jig patent expire? :confused: I am sure somebody knows.

"It's a dog eat dog world" -- Mad Dog Vachon
Good news is that I hear that dog tastes like chicken. :D burrrp!

[tod evans]

never used either but the tefc motor, stainless support rod and tighter tolerances of the tormek speak of quality. and yes i`m certain there will be other importers trying to grab a share of this market most on price alone. just as there are lotsa folks who shop on price alone. hopefully tormek will continue to up the quality and real life value so they`re still doing the job when the clones are starting to exibit problems. .02 tod

[Eddie Darby]

never used either but the tefc motor, stainless support rod and tighter tolerances of the tormek speak of quality. and yes i`m certain there will be other importers trying to grab a share of this market most on price alone. just as there are lotsa folks who shop on price alone. hopefully tormek will continue to up the quality and real life value so they`re still doing the job when the clones are starting to exibit problems. .02 tod

That begs the questions:
-What is the longest serving Tormek?
-How many sharpening stones has anyone gone through on a single Tormek machine?
-What year did Tormek start with it's sharpener?
-Can a machine be built that is better than a Tormek, and if so will there be enough demand in the market for it, or is this the top of the line?

[Gary Keedwell]

Eddie,

Those are very good questions. Maybe they have a Tormek fan club that has answers. I just watched the videos and seriously thinking of finally ditching all hand sharpening implements I have accumulated over the many years. ( actually I'll keep them around for back-up purposes...woodworkers throw nothing away lol )

Gary K.

[Bob Wingard]

If you buy the Starter Package for $409 and then buy the Woodturner's Accessory Kit for $240, you would end up with two stone graders. Also, our Accessory Kit includes the dust cover, but our Woodturners Package does not. Buying the Woodturners Package at $619 compared to buying a Jet and a TORMEK Woodturners Accessory Kit at $539 the difference would be $80, not $110. If you want the cover, then the difference is back to 98.95. A niggle, I know, but lets make sure all our apples are the same variety.

Jeff .. .. .. it's nice to see that you once again are boasting of including the dust cover .. .. .. are you actually providing one, or are you reniging at the last second as you did in my case.??

Yes, I'm the guy who bought one of your systems at the Nashville show (18 June 05) where you promised that all of your "packages included a FREE dust cover. I bought the "handyman" package and the planer/jointer jig for a total of $629. Upon opening the package, there was no dust cover. Since the Atlanta show was coming up, I waited and approached you at that time, inquiring about getting said dust cover. Your response was that you "couldn't remember" if you made such an offer at that time and that if I wanted to buy a dust cover, your wife had some for sale across the aisle for about $20. Let me ask you .. .. if you didn't offer one at the Nashville show, how would I have even been aware that the offer ever existed ?? You blew it, you lost a customer, and I'll never spend another penny with you or your company.

I told the above story to Geoffrey ( the REAL TORMEK factory rep.) at I.W.F. and he offered me a dust cover to make up for your shortcoming. He said it was a TORMEK problem to have an unsatisfied customer. I refused his generous offer and told him it was not a TORMEK problem, it was a Jeff Farris problem but I appreciated his consideration.

The impression I get is that moderate success has gone to your head and you now consider it OK to crap on a customer once you get his money.

Your response ?? ?? ??

[Tom Hintz]

Is it possible that we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here, and that other tool manufacturers such as say for instance Grizzly will be making their own new improved version of the Tormek and Jet?

I wonder when the turning gouge jig patent expires? Or for that matter when will Enie Conover's Camber plane blade jig patent expire? :confused: I am sure somebody knows.

"It's a dog eat dog world" -- Mad Dog Vachon
Good news is that I hear that dog tastes like chicken. :D burrrp!

Good points. At one time, somebody built their own version of the first lathe, first table saw, etc. somewhere along the line there was the first of just about everything around us and then came all the rest. All of those machines still use the same basic layout but all the companies making them develop their little ways of changing it. It is up to the end users to look at them and decide which one they like best.

[Bart Leetch]

Post 32 there is a proper time to private message a person & this was one of them.:eek: :)

[Gary Keedwell]

Are you talking to me? Am I # 32? Hope I didn't break a protocol.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Gary--if you look up to the right of each post by the http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/report.gif there is a post number for each thread. That said, yours was post #31 and the one right above mine which is post #35.

Take care, Mike

[Robert Mickley]

While the Tormeck is a wonderful machine, I'll never own one. I sat back and reeread what I had typed out. I decided it was just to much trouble. Lets just say they have some business practices I don't agree with and till those change Tormeck can go fly a kite

[Mike Wenzloff]

Robert,

Tormek has several distribution points, Amazon and Woodcraft being others. I think that if one has a problem with one of them, there are the other sources. If it is indeed a wonderful machine and you truly consider it so, seems the easiest solution would be to simply buy it from Woodcraft or Amazon.

Tormek's business practice as reported in this thread [the one post which mentions direct involvement] seems good. Perhaps confusing Tormek and a single point of purchase may not be fair to Tormek as a company itself.

Take care, Mike

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff .. .. .. it's nice to see that you once again are boasting of including the dust cover .. .. .. are you actually providing one, or are you reniging at the last second as you did in my case.??

Yes, I'm the guy who bought one of your systems at the Nashville show (18 June 05) where you promised that all of your "packages included a FREE dust cover. I bought the "handyman" package and the planer/jointer jig for a total of $629. Upon opening the package, there was no dust cover. Since the Atlanta show was coming up, I waited and approached you at that time, inquiring about getting said dust cover. Your response was that you "couldn't remember" if you made such an offer at that time and that if I wanted to buy a dust cover, your wife had some for sale across the aisle for about $20. Let me ask you .. .. if you didn't offer one at the Nashville show, how would I have even been aware that the offer ever existed ?? You blew it, you lost a customer, and I'll never spend another penny with you or your company.

I told the above story to Geoffrey ( the REAL TORMEK factory rep.) at I.W.F. and he offered me a dust cover to make up for your shortcoming. He said it was a TORMEK problem to have an unsatisfied customer. I refused his generous offer and told him it was not a TORMEK problem, it was a Jeff Farris problem but I appreciated his consideration.

The impression I get is that moderate success has gone to your head and you now consider it OK to crap on a customer once you get his money.

Your response ?? ?? ??

Bob, I don't specifically remember our encounter. The Handyman Package has never included the dust cover. Some confusion arises over the cover because of a pricing decision I made last year. SharpToolsUSA does not buy TORMEK's pre-packaged Accessory Kits. We buy all the jigs individually and then bundle the jigs for each sale. That gives us some flexibility in customizing a package for a specific customer request. We also decided last year to make the dust cover optional for those packages where TORMEK includes it in the Accessory Kit -- namely, the Woodturner's, Woodcarver's, and Cabinetmaker's Packages. By doing that, we can offer the same functions to our customers for about $20 less than retailers who are locked into the boxed accessory kits. The fact that the dust cover is not included is stated in our catalog and on our web site several times, and the cover is offered for $18.95.

What is a little surprising about your issue is that the TORMEK boxed "Home Craftsman's Accessory Kit" and our "Handyman Package" have never included the dust cover. I don't know where the confusion got started, and I apologize for whatever I might have said that led to the misunderstanding. My wife and I take great pride in being fair with our customers. But, fair means fair. We offer a show special at the shows, but that special is the same for everyone and we don't play, "Let's Make A Deal". I am sorry we had a misunderstanding. If there is something we can do to make it right. we will certainly try.

[Sam Chambers]

Post 32 there is a proper time to private message a person & this was one of them.:eek: :)
Couldn't agree more, Bart. Personal disagreements like this should be addressed by private communication, like e-mail or PM.

[Jeff Farris]

I agree that this is off topic, and will do whatever the moderators want, but I would like to add one more item publicly just to make sure another misunderstanding doesn't come up with someone else.

Bob, please re-read the post of mine that you quoted.

The "Accessory Kits" do not include a machine. They are for customers who buy a basic machine from us (or anyone other TORMEK dealer) and later decide to add a bundle of accessories. Our offered accessory kits are identical to those offered by all TORMEK dealers as far as what is in them. The Woodturners, Woodcarvers, and Cabinetmakers Accessory Kits include the dust cover. The Home Craftsman (our Handyman) Accessory Kit does not.

Our "Packages" include a machine and a group of accessories. I decided last year to take the dust cover out of the packages where it was included by TORMEK and let the customers decide whether they need or want the dust cover.

I could avoid a lot of confusion by just falling in line with all the other dealers and bumping the price up $20 and putting the cover in.

[Terre Hooks]

Jeff,

I would suggest you steer away from the Jet Sharpener threads from now on, at least with the negative posts.

It isn't a matter of whether or not the Tormek is superior to the Jet or not, it's a matter of how you are related to the Tormek.

Everytime this topic comes up, on several woodworking forums, you are in the middle of it. You are doing yourself and the Tormek no favor. There is no one here from WMH Tool Group telling the whole World what their opinions are of the faults of the Tormek.

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff,

I would suggest you steer away from the Jet Sharpener threads from now on, at least with the negative posts.

It isn't a matter of whether or not the Tormek is superior to the Jet or not, it's a matter of how you are related to the Tormek.

Everytime this topic comes up, on several woodworking forums, you are in the middle of it. You are doing yourself and the Tormek no favor. There is no one here from WMH Tool Group telling the whole World what their opinions are of the faults of the Tormek.


I am sorry you feel that way, Terre. The original post asked for a comparison of the two machines. Nothing that I stated anywhere in this thread is opinion, it is fact. The machines have been tested side-by-side, and I think the results are relavent to the question that was asked.

[Bob Wingard]

Jeff .. .. .. spin it however you like, but, as I stated earlier .. .. .. how would I ever had been aware that you were offering the "FREE" cover if you had not mentioned it to me in Nashville at the time of purchase ?? ?? ?? I certainly wouldn't have just dreamed it up and then confronted you about it in Atlanta. When I approached you in Atlanta to clear it up, you stated that June of last year was "about the time you quit offering the cover deal". Now think about it one more time .. .. .. if you quit offering it prior to June '05, how would I possibly been aware that such an offer ever existed ?? ?? ??

[Erik Rudd]

I am sorry you feel that way, Terre. The original post asked for a comparison of the two machines. Nothing that I stated anywhere in this thread is opinion, it is fact. The machines have been tested side-by-side, and I think the results are relavent to the question that was asked.

There's testing and then there's testing... I prefer independent testing which your tests and tests you quote are not.

[tod evans]

Jeff,

I would suggest you steer away from the Jet Sharpener threads from now on, at least with the negative posts.

It isn't a matter of whether or not the Tormek is superior to the Jet or not, it's a matter of how you are related to the Tormek.

Everytime this topic comes up, on several woodworking forums, you are in the middle of it. You are doing yourself and the Tormek no favor. There is no one here from WMH Tool Group telling the whole World what their opinions are of the faults of the Tormek.

terre, the jet sharpener is only on the market in an attempt to undercut pricewise,the tormek. importers marketing obvious clones attempting to compete on price alone shouldn`t cry foul when spokesmen or customers of the cloned product point out some of the corners that where cut in order to arrive at a given price point.....now if wmh where to actually design a sharpening system of their own design that was in fact superior to the tormek offering even if it was made in tai/chi and jeff where to refute claims of superiority by stating opinion rather than fact then, and only then, would you be in the right asking him to refrain from comment.

obviously this is only my opinion but i honestly believe that jeff is standing up for a product he believes in, in fact he`s invested a considerable amount of time and money in order to market this product.
asking jeff to refrain from comment would be like asking shiraz to refrain from commenting on grizzly threads.
just my .02 tod

[Erik Rudd]

terre, the jet sharpener is only on the market in an attempt to undercut pricewise,the tormek. importers marketing obvious clones attempting to compete on price alone shouldn`t cry foul when spokesmen or customers of the cloned product point out some of the corners that where cut in order to arrive at a given price point.....

I think that part of Terre's point is that there is no one from WMH here at at all. And I've never seen Shiraz giving blow by blow test results of his products vs. anyone elses. Have you?

[tod evans]

erik, i agree on both issues, there is nobody here speaking for wmh, although i personally invited them a few months back in a thread about routerbits. and no i`ve not seen shiraz give a blow by blow account of how he believes grizzly products stand in comparison to others, but i do see him defending what he perceives as slights to grizzlys reputation and i see jeff as doing no different...02 tod

[Terre Hooks]

... The original post asked for a comparison of the two machines. Nothing that I stated anywhere in this thread is opinion, it is fact....



Even at 100 dollars less, the Jet is no "bargain".


What's that?


Bottom line is the Jet is probably aimed at the user who is not going to use it for 8 hours a day. And if you come up with someone that is sitting at the grinder for THREE SOLID HOURS, please provide photos of the tool(s) they are sharpening (I mean ruining), the comfy lounge chair their posterior is positioned in and the restroom and refreshment facilities they enjoy.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Frankly, I'd love to see both sides have it out in one of these threads. As long as both parties identify themselves and keep it civil, a lot of information could come out of that sort of debate.

Should we set up a cage match?? :D

[Erik Rudd]

I believe that Jeff is doing something different, something very different. He's providing observed behaviors that he and Tormek engineers have collected directly comparing the two products. I don't want to say that he's badmouthing the competition, that's too strong, but he is coloring the discussion. There was no slight, real or imagined, offered at the time Jeff jumped in with his comments.

I think it is poor taste for a manufacturer or manufacturers rep to, in essence, give a sales spiel when someone asks for an opinion on a product..theirs or anyone else's...the poster of such a question is looking for information that isn't biased by a financial interest.

With that being said, I think that Jeff should stay out of these type threads. In my view he does himself and Tormek a disservice everytime he denigrates another product or even another vendor of his product.

Now if reps from two different manufacturers get into a discussion on the relative merits of their products...well that's what we call good old fasioned entertainment, and I want the popcorn franchise...:D

[Jeff Farris]

What's that?


Bottom line is the Jet is probably aimed at the user who is not going to use it for 8 hours a day. And if you come up with someone that is sitting at the grinder for THREE SOLID HOURS, please provide photos of the tool(s) they are sharpening (I mean ruining), the comfy lounge chair their posterior is positioned in and the restroom and refreshment facilities they enjoy.


Pardon me. I should have said that all the comparative statements are fact not opinion.

[Alan Simpson]

Pardon me. I should have said that all the comparative statements are fact not opinion.

Actually, you should have said that all the comparative statements are fact based on tests performed by Tormek.

[Jeff Farris]

Actually, you should have said that all the comparative statements are fact based on tests performed by Tormek.


You are correct. The methodology for all the tests performed can be provided to anyone who has the necessary equipment and would care to repeat the tests to verify the results.

[Jeff Farris]

...There was no slight, real or imagined, offered at the time Jeff jumped in with his comments.


...While the Jet is dumping their product on the market--er, introductory pricing--its cost plus a few Tormek jigs is cost effective.

Erik, I was addressing Mike's comment about cost effectiveness. Cheaper doesn't always mean more cost effective.

[Erik Rudd]

Erik, I was addressing Mike's comment about cost effectiveness. Cheaper doesn't always mean more cost effective.

Jeff, you just don't seem to get the point.

If your product is truly so much better as to justify the pricing difference then you have nothing to fear from Jet and no need to talk negatively about their product. If the market doesn't see enough of a difference to justify the cost then you'll go out of business or adapt and all of your protestations of superiority will not help you survive, it'll just make you seem petty.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff, you just don't seem to get the point.

From my perspective you are one of the last people on the planet that should be commenting about the quality, cost, or availability of the Jet equipment. Your relationship with Tormek negatively colors anything you have to say on the topic. Good, bad or indifferent that's just the way it is.

If your product is truly so much better as to justify the pricing difference then you have nothing to fear from Jet and no need to talk negatively about their product. If the market doesn't see enough of a difference to justify the cost then you'll go out of business or adapt and all of your protestations of superiority will not help you survive, it'll just make you seem petty.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Your point of view is interesting, but I have a hard time agreeing. Do you think that I should just sit back and not say a word about the Jet? Who is supposed to answer Steve's question? Someone who bought a Jet because it was cheaper but has never worked on a TORMEK? Isn't that person's desire to validate his own decision just as suspect as my financial involvement? I am not replying to this thread out of "fear". As I said much earlier in this thread, if the Jet was a superior product -- or even an equal product at a better price -- I would be filling out a new dealer credit application with WMH instead of monitoring the internet buzz. I think that I am in a unique position to address the issue, since I have 14 years of experience with the TORMEK and have had a chance to run the Jet through its paces. TORMEK has shared its test data with me (and every other dealer in the United States) so that we have some way to address the inevitable questions of comparison that will come up. It really isn't as sinister or devious as you are trying to make it sound.

[Jim Hinze]

I find this thread amazing... it's actually more polarized than the Grizzly vs. Oneida DC threads...

Guys, Jet cloned the tormek, did a "fair" job IMHO. I agree with Terre, it was probably designed for the hobbiest who won't use it but a couple hours per week...

For the record, I'm a tormek user, am very happy and probably would stay with the unit if purchasing today... I like many others had no clue that Jeff had interest .. most of the vendors who participate on this forum make it very clear who they represent...... I have to say, it's Jeff's right to persue this thread in the manor he is, but I don't agree with it...

Sorry for the rambling, this is the most cohesive I could make my thoughts.

Note: This thread is not intended to inflame anyone .. anymore than they already are, just trying to give a spectators point of view.

[Jeff Farris]

... I like many others had no clue that Jeff had interest .. most of the vendors who participate on this forum make it very clear who they represent......

In the spirit of full disclosure at all times I have added a signature to my profile. It should appear with this post.

[Steve Rowe]

There's testing and then there's testing... I prefer independent testing which your tests and tests you quote are not.
Conceptually, I agree with this however, I have never seen a test of woodworking tools that wasn't biased in some way, shape, or form. This bias usually takes the form of the evaluators personal preferences and the way he/she works. This specifically includes all woodworking magazine reviews and their silly labels of editors choice, best buy, best value, etc. That however, is a topic for another thread.

With respect to the testing performed by Tormek, I expect bias but that doesn't mean the results provided are not factual or necessarily complete.

Bottom line is the Jet is probably aimed at the user who is not going to use it for 8 hours a day. And if you come up with someone that is sitting at the grinder for THREE SOLID HOURS, please provide photos of the tool(s) they are sharpening (I mean ruining), the comfy lounge chair their posterior is positioned in and the restroom and refreshment facilities they enjoy.
Conditions of testing seldom simulate real world conditions since they are nearly always much more severe. This is done so that the test conditions bound the real life conditions to ensure proper performance and reliability of the product. Another reason for extreme test conditions is to test the endurance limits of the product (i.e. - when can failure be expected?). The results of testing such as this, provides end users an indication of how much design margin is built into the product. This nearly always equates to how reliable the product would be in our applications since we should never come near the test limits. This margin also typically distinguishes between products that were designed for industrial type use versus the intermittent homeowner type use. I, for one, want to know this type of information so that I can make the best choice for my application.

There is no doubt that WMH tested the Tormek versus the Jet - afterall, they basically copied many of the Tormeks design features and jigs. If someone from WMH came on this forum and provided their test results, I am sure their input would be as welcome as Jeff's.

Steve

[David Jarrell]

TORMEK has shared its test data with me (and every other dealer in the United States) so that we have some way to address the inevitable questions of comparison that will come up.

Jeff, perhaps you could share the test data with the rest of us and let us draw our own conclusions regarding the comparisons?

Otherwise, this thread may not end well.

[Erik Rudd]

Jeff, perhaps you could share the test data with the rest of us and let us draw our own conclusions regarding the comparisons?


I predict that this won't happen. Please prove me a poor prognosticator.

[Jim A. Smith]

Sure lots of Hub Bub in here over tormek and jet.

Jeff. Your test results are all from Tormek?

Shouldn't there be an independent testing done on the tormek, and the jet?
Seems one sided to me. I own neither one.

[Don Baer]

OK I have been sitting on the sidelines for a while so I'll pipe in my input. It seems that an independent evaluation is called for. I volunteer my shop as a test bed for this test. I have neither system but if each manufacturers will send me a system I promise to do a fair and impartial evaluation. I will test the systems on my hand planes, chisels, turning tools and my planer. So now I am challenginging each manufacturer to put up or shut up....:D

[Hugh Jaskok]

What's the retail price of the JET version? I am looking for a sharpening system, but I already ruled out the Tormek because of the price.:(

[Jeff Farris]

I predict that this won't happen. Please prove me a poor prognosticator.

Proven.:)

TVI document (http://users.wildblue.net/jeffinsgf/tvi.pdf)

Notes:
You'll need Adobe Acrobat or another .pdf file reader.
The conversions from Newton/Meters to Foot/Pounds are off by one decimal point (move it right).

[Jeff Farris]

Sure lots of Hub Bub in here over tormek and jet.

Jeff. Your test results are all from Tormek?

Shouldn't there be an independent testing done on the tormek, and the jet?
Seems one sided to me. I own neither one.

Should there be (truly) independent testing? Sure. But somebody has to commission it. I wish all of you could meet Torgny Jansson, the owner of TORMEK. Ten minutes with him and all your cynical suspicions about the fairness of these tests would be laid to rest. He is one of the most honest and genuine people that I have ever met. The lab where the tests were done wasn't assembled for this test. He has been torture testing and improving the TORMEK for 27 years, without being spurred by competition.

[Erik Rudd]

Thank you for posting that info and proving me a poor prognosticator (my dad always said there was no future in it).

A couple of questions.

What's the recommended torque load for sharpening?
The Jet wheel wears 30 times faster and the fine side of the grading stone wears 20 times faster when used with the Jet wheel? Was the coarse side tested?
Were the rockwell numbers for the steel in the various test grinds measured for apples to apples comparison?
Was the same force applied to both machines for the steel removal test?
Stability of the machine...is this an issue under real world force application vs. the high pressure tests conducted?

[David Jarrell]

Proven.:)

TVI document (http://users.wildblue.net/jeffinsgf/tvi.pdf)

Notes:
You'll need Adobe Acrobat or another .pdf file reader.
The conversions from Newton/Meters to Foot/Pounds are off by one decimal point (move it right).

This thread delivers!

[Ian Barley]

Terre

FWIW I share some of your concerns but I think we need to evaluate Jeffs response constructively. He has information which is potentially valuable to people investigating certain products. He also has a commercial interest in the choice that people make in that product category. I think his posts in this thread have probably gone a bit too far as well. But he has a bit of a track record of trying to behave within the bounds that we have established for our little community so I will forgive him this mistake. The only other way that he could tell anybody reading his posts that he has the interest he has is by putting a line in each post that he makes which is not significantly different from adding it in his sig.

[Chris Barton]

This thread has done exactly what it was supposed to in many ways. Jeff's contributions to this topic have been very valuable and worthwhile. Everybody has to make a living and Jeff happens to have an avocation that is closely matched with the objectives of the forum. I have been amazed that this thread hasn't been pulled by the moderators because it seems everytime a truely spirited debate takes place (usually around saw stop or overseas inports) the posts goes up in smoke.

Now, can we get someone from Jet to give us their take on this discussion?

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I'm glad Jeff added the sig line so we know his motives. He's got valuable information to provide and to exclude him completely would be a shame. I think all vendors should be required to identify themselves in that fashion.

[David Jarrell]

Terre,
Disclosure of an organizational or corporate affiliation should not be chastised here; I'd love to know with whom I'm dealing. Please don't scare these good people away from doing this in the future.

Yours,
David

[Charles McKinley]

Terre,

We (the membes) run a nice polite self-moderated community.

Advertising is not permitted. No where did I see Jeff say TORMEK is the greatest buy from me me me !

We have invited manufactures to set up there own section of the forums to provide information.

Several of Dino's (EZ system) early post were very confornataional. He has grown into a great asset for the site.

Disclosure is good all the way around and information from the mfg or rep is welcome.

IMNSHO this thread is pages longer than it should be due to senseless bickering and I'm recommending it be locked.

[Steve Clardy]

Terre,

The sig line is the disclosure you asked for and complies with the terms of service. The links that you refer to do NOT comply with the terms of service.

We (the membes) run a nice polite self-moderated community.

Advertising is not permitted. No where did I see Jeff say TORMEK is the greatest buy from me me me !

We have invited manufactures to set up there own section of the forums to provide information.

Several of Dino's (EZ system) early post were very confornataional. He has grown into a great asset for the site.

Disclosure is good all the way around and information from the mfg or rep is welcome.

IMNSHO this thread is pages longer than it should be due to senseless bickering and I'm recommending it be locked.

If this gets locked, nothing with get hashed out.
I would like to see an independent review of both.
With the Jet being so new on the market, this has probably not been done yet.

[Lyle DeWalt]

If this gets locked, nothing with get hashed out.
I would like to see an independent review of both.
With the Jet being so new on the market, this has probably not been done yet.

I agree. I would really like to see this discussion continued.

[Dennis Peacock]

Hey.....

Is this topic about the new jet sharpener (aka Tormek) or is this about Jeff, who he is, Shiraz and all that and then blah-blah-blah.......

Keep it on topic or this thread will likely be removed. This is not a thread for personal nor corporate attacks. Let's move on with the discussion and stay on topic.

[CPeter James]

Thank you, Dennis.

CPeter

[Richard Niemiec]

As threads go, this one is a real roller coaster ride and quite entertaining. Quite to the contrary of locking the thread, it is the ebb and flow of the discussion which is most interesting, and in fact generated a link to Tormek's "fact" sheet of their comparison with the Jet. This is useful to those thinking of buying the machine, and also is clear as to who is grinding (pun not intended) who's axe.

Having said that, we all know why we love these sharpening gagets, as they provide the promise of sharpness of tools, which in turn provides the promise of craftsmanship - all for a price. And that's what makes America great, the ability to sell a promise, which may or may not be fulfilled, for whatever price the market will bear. This is not limited to sharpening systems by any means, but all sorts of jigs, tools, etc.

But please allow me to digress, as what I find most interesting is that for hundreds of years plenty of folks have kept tools sharp with all sorts of stones, learning the art of sharpening, and thereafter practicing their art on wood. We all get caught up in fancy this and fancy that, but with the exception of a used Makita planer and jointer power waterstone, which paid for itself in saved sharpening fees after three sharpenings, I like my Norton oilstones (not waterstones), scary sharp sandpaper, slipstones and buffing wheel with rouge, and get fine edges, at least fine enough for my wood butchering. But don't get me wrong, I am sure for professional shops a Tormek or Jet may make some sense where a lot of sharpening takes place, but my Nortons and a 1750 rpm grinder with aluminium oxide wheels has been very, very good to me.

So, Jeff, Robert, Bob and everyone else, please, please continue the discussion, as I am looking forward with much anticipation for the inevitable slicing, dicing and dissection of the Tormek "tool test" comparison sheet Jeff was so gracious to provide.

Rich

[Sparky Paessler]

I'm glad Jeff has posted his information here. I am looking at buying a Jet or Tormek machine in the near future and it gives me some things to think about. Since I wasn't familure with who he was I'm also glad that he listed his involvement with Tormek which allows us to weight his information properly. I am glad that manufacturing reps post on this forum and feel that they offer valuable information. I would have had a problem if Jeff had started this thread but he was responding to a member's valid question. They both look like nice machines but it is good to hear why Tormaek thinks that their's is worth $100 or so more. I now need to decide if those reasons are worth that to me.

Thanks Jeff

[Jeff Farris]

Thank you for posting that info and proving me a poor prognosticator (my dad always said there was no future in it).

A couple of questions.

What's the recommended torque load for sharpening?

TORMEK has stated that 7.4 foot pounds is "efficient" and that 5.2 foot pounds is half of the maximum load. I wish I knew how to convert that to a real world "How hard should I bear down?", which I get asked all the time.

I use pretty heavy pressure when I grind, but that is usually when I am doing a demonstration on a damaged tool. I cannot speak about the Jet, because I don't have enough experience with it, but on the TORMEK, if you have a damaged tool that needs quite a bit of steel removed, if the stone is clean and graded properly, you can get the job done quicker by applying more pressure. If the stone is dirty, standing on it won't do any good. You have to have the stone working before pressure is your ally.



The Jet wheel wears 30 times faster and the fine side of the grading stone wears 20 times faster when used with the Jet wheel? Was the coarse side tested?

No where in the document I linked does TORMEK say anything about the wear of the Jet grindstone. The only wheel life comparison was on the drive wheel, which was 30 hours compared to 3 hours -- ten times not 30 times. Neither system's grader's coarse side shows significant wear.



Were the rockwell numbers for the steel in the various test grinds measured for apples to apples comparison?
Was the same force applied to both machines for the steel removal test?

I believe that the same piece of steel was used for each test. If not, I am reasonably sure that they were as close to identical as possible. The load was very carefully applied by a mechanical arm that was precisely equal on both machines.



Stability of the machine...is this an issue under real world force application vs. the high pressure tests conducted?

That's a question that will require some more real world experience. I don't know yet.

[Erik Rudd]

No where in the document I linked does TORMEK say anything about the wear of the Jet grindstone. The only wheel life comparison was on the drive wheel, which was 30 hours compared to 3 hours -- ten times not 30 times. Neither system's grader's coarse side shows significant wear.




Correct. I mis-read that part.

[Brad Olson]

Note over on Woodnet a bunch of these machines are rolling into a few shops. Check out the handtool section to see reviews.

Generally the reviews are good. QC has a ways to go, but this kind of expected on a new machine and on a machine made overseas.

Jet must be confident in their machine because apparently there is a 5 year warranty listed on the box.

Overall, I'm glad to see the competition for tormek. I think they have had too comfortable of a niche for too long. I think it is even better that jigs are essentially interchangeable, so that maybe instead of the machine being so expensive, we will see a war of sharpening jigs instead.

[Ken Salisbury]

I have gone to the trouble of editing a few posts to remove off topic content and personal attacks.

To quote Dennis: Keep it on topic or this thread will likely be removed. This is not a thread for personal nor corporate attacks. Let's move on with the discussion and stay on topic.

KEEP IT ON TOPIC. ! !


"Your Friendly Moderator"

[Mike Wenzloff]

What's that?


Bottom line is the Jet is probably aimed at the user who is not going to use it for 8 hours a day. And if you come up with someone that is sitting at the grinder for THREE SOLID HOURS, please provide photos of the tool(s) they are sharpening (I mean ruining), the comfy lounge chair their posterior is positioned in and the restroom and refreshment facilities they enjoy.
Well, this thread has grown.

Terre,

We use it nearly every day, sometimes for only 30 minutes. But there are days when we run ours, one of the three of us will be at it for up to 5 or more hours. Longest was probably 7 hours of near continous work.

Take care, Mike

[Erik Rudd]

Jeff, Are you sure that the Jet has a universal motor instead of a DC motor similar to the variable speed mini lathe motor? Aren't DC motors designed to run at higher temps?

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff, Are you sure that the Jet has a universal motor instead of a DC motor similar to the variable speed mini lathe motor? Aren't DC motors designed to run at higher temps?


I don't believe I ever stated that the motor was universal. It is a DC motor, which I stated in my second post of the thread. As for a DC motor's ability to handle higher temps --- I don't know, but 230º F seems to me like it is going to be hard on anything.

[Erik Rudd]

I don't believe I ever stated that the motor was universal. It is a DC motor, which I stated in my second post of the thread.

You are correct. Mike Wenzloff was the man who said universal motor back on the first page and that stuck in my head as sounding not quite right. I did not mean to put words into your mouth.

[RichMagnone]

Jeff, will you be at the Chicago show? Can I bring by a tool for a demo?

[Jeff Farris]

I don't want to push any boundaries here, but yes, I will be at the Chicago Woodworking Show, and all of the shows produced by The Woodworking Shows. You (and everyone else) are welcome to bring by a tool for a demonstration.

[Mike Mortenson]

I can not believe the way you guys have acted on this post. I think any info that can be brought out is welcomed. I think Jeff made some good points and unless someone can prove different he shouldnt be slammed. I own neither of these products but if nothing else its good to hear all the goods and bads of each unit. I think its time to grow up guys.

[Mike Wenzloff]

You are correct. Mike Wenzloff was the man who said universal motor back on the first page and that stuck in my head as sounding not quite right. I did not mean to put words into your mouth.
Twas a mistake to be sure. I read a lot--too bad I cannot keep it all organized so it comes out right!

Take care, Mike

[Don Baer]

I happened to be close to a woodcraft store during lunch hour today and since I have asked them to get me a hollowing tool for my turning I decided to stop by and see if it was in yet. It wasn't but while in the store I struck up a conversation with the manager about the two system. They had the Jet and the Tormek on display within 10 ft of each other. He didn't realy offer an opinion on either one but he did volunteer that he had sold 6 of the jet system and that none have been returned. He further said that he has talked to 2 of the buyers who were very happy with there purchase.