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View Full Version : How does this stuff happen? Semi OT



Bill Grumbine
09-21-2006, 8:45 PM
I have been reading Popular Woodworking more and more over the past year, so much so that I broke my own rule and bought a subscription. As you read along, you may begin to understand why I have a rule against subscriptions. I decided to spring for a full two years, and wrote them a check for $39.92, which is what the instuctions said to do. I think I even checked a box to help the people who are there in the subscription dept.

My firt issue arrived the other day with a notice stating that they are very happy I subscribed, but that I still owe them money, and I need to cough it up as soon as possible. Puzzled, I called the subscription dept, only to discover that they had a record of my subscription being paid in full - for ONE YEAR. The very nice man on the other end of the line told me that I would need quite a bit of information to actually prove that I wrote a check for $39.92. So, I called my bank, and we went through the register together, since I could not find any evidence of my check being cashed. The lady at the bank finally found my check, and told me that it had been cashed for $19.97. Okay, I thought, I made a bonehead error, and wrote the check for one year but recorded it as two in the register. BUT THEN she went on to say that the writing on the check indicated that it was to be cashed for $39.92!!!

I called Popular Woodworking back, and explained everything that the lady at the bank had just explained to me. The very polite lady at PW asked me to hold while she investigated. After leaving me on hold for quite some time, she came back on the line to inform me that yes indeed, there had been a "bank error". By this point my blood pressure is going up and up, and I am wondering why I ever did this in the first place. I have just wasted another 10 minutes or so on the phone to get information that I ALREADY HAVE!!! She was unable to add to that information, or provide me with any sort of explanation other than "it was a bank error". Yes, the inhuman and impersonal bank cashed your check for the wrong amount, and it just happens to be the exact amount of a different subscription price.

Right.

Then she said, "We would be happy to extend your subscription another year sir". For a fleeting moment, I thought she was going to give me another year, but it was not to be. After a significant pause (perhaps she was looking for the script she reads from) she went on to say, "and we will mail you another invoice."

"What is the difference between sending me an invoice now and sending one in a year?", I asked.

"None at all", she replied.

"Then send it in a year."

We'll see if they can get that right, although I suspect now that I have my first issue in hand, I will start getting renewal notices any day now. By then I will probably be back to paying the newstand price so I don't have to deal with morons and heartburn wasting time and trying to get things straightened out over the phone.

But I never asked my question! How in the world can so many people, however many that is, manage to cash a check that is clearly written for a different amount? This check had to go through the hands of at least a few people, both at PW and the bank. I cannot imagine how no one noticed something amiss. You can bet they would have caught it if I had written it for $18.97. If I do subscribe again, maybe I'll do that, just to give someone something to do... ;)

Edit in: Now I'm real unhappy. :mad: :mad: :mad: I just got off their website, and if I had gone to the website to order my subscription instead of using that stupid paper tab that magazines are infested with, I would have PAID HALF THE PRICE! Who is the marketing genius who thinks this stuff up!?!?!? Do they have some pinhead sitting at a desk looking for ways to irritate people? They have succeeded with me. It is time to get out the poison pen and start writing. I just have to find out who to write to.

Bill

Matt Meiser
09-21-2006, 9:33 PM
We had a check written for $12.95 cashed for $17.95. The bank told me that they don't do anything unless it is over $100. I of course argued that that seemed like a odd way to do business and the situation escalated until I spoke to a regional manager. He explained to me (and then to all of his branch managers who didn't understand the policy) that they don't do anything to get the money back unless it is over $100, but they do credit the customer's account. The only good thing about it is that we ended up getting to know the branch manager really well and she essentially became our personal banker until she left. She even handled the closing on our house personally.

If I were you, I'd contact the editor directly. Being a woodworking celebrity, I bet they'd put you right through to him. :)

Art Mulder
09-21-2006, 9:49 PM
... I suspect now that I have my first issue in hand, I will start getting renewal notices any day now.

I am continually amazed at how primitive the subscription + renewal systems of most magazines is.

For instance, back in January I received a renewal notice from FWW warning me that my subscription was going end, and I quote, "soon". My subscription was due to end in June. I wrote them a letter point out that it seemed that only in the world of magazine renewals and federal elections could an event six months in the future be termed "soon".

Made no difference of course, but I felt better. :cool:

At the very least, it would be nice if the FWW subscription renewal letters would point out that I can renew on the website.

Ever notice how many magazine places have renewal addresses that don't match the magazine's address? I suspect that most of them have contracted out this whole renewal/subscription thing to some third party who still works with punched cards in their computers.

best,
...art

Dave Richards
09-21-2006, 9:57 PM
Bill, I think I would be cancelling that subscription now. Ask for your money back since they can't seem to get it right. The bank didn't make the error. They just do what they're told and they wouldn't have known to pay a one year's subscription price on a check that was written for more. Who ever keypunched your subscription info made the error and they work ofr PW or their agent.

Wes Bischel
09-21-2006, 10:20 PM
Bill,
Just remember - they're out to get you!;) :D
We went through the "Subscription ending soon!" syndrome too - I found one subscription that LOML had paid up for over three years.:mad: LOML ended up making a spreadsheet to keep track of what was truely going to expire, and what wasn't!

I also would let them know how unhappy you are with the experience - and their subscription pricing policies. Who knows, maybe they'll make it right.

Good luck,
Wes

Bruce Shiverdecker
09-22-2006, 12:11 AM
All I can say, Bill, is that I, cancelled ALL my subscriptions! Haven't had one for at least 5 years. The only request/notice I still receive is SAW Blades with SMILEY FACES on them!

Bruce

Spence DePauw
09-22-2006, 8:43 AM
Bill, I've not had your experience.

But, I decided quite a while back to cancel many of my subscriptions, including Wood (3 years ago) and a couple of Train related magazines (1 year ago). I've sent no money, but they keep sending magaines. I still get Wood, as recently as last month, I think. I don't find much of interest in it these days but I seem to be getting free magazines. They also come with renewal offers, which I promptly consign the the round file.

Spence

Dennis Peacock
09-22-2006, 9:26 AM
Do they have some pinhead sitting at a desk looking for ways to irritate people?
Bill

LOL Bill....I feel your pain buddy. Nothing as long lasting nor painful to get corrected as you, but I think a lot of people have been there at some point in time. I guess the "pinhead" is making his money by charging more via his venue of marketing. Thanks for the heads up on subscribing to PW....I think I'll just stick with buying it when I want it. ;)

Bill Grumbine
09-22-2006, 9:41 AM
I sent them an email last night, but got a response saying they will get back to me within two business days, and of course, today is Friday. I think I will be on the phone today. We've had a virus running through the family, and I thought I avoided it, but no, it has me in its grip right now, so working up in the shop is not really a good idea at this point. Where's that phone....

Bill Grumbine
09-22-2006, 10:23 AM
Okay, I just got off the phone with the very nice supervisor lady. She explained at length that it is in fact the bank that screwed up the check. She says she is just as mystified as me as to why this happened, but she said it happens with frequent regularity. I was able to verify her story since I had a copy of the check in front of me. I suppose I could call the bank and talk to someone there who would give me a long winded story about how it is somebody else's fault, but their coding numbers are there on the check.

Then I went on to the discrepancy between the tearout card and the web price. It is marketing she said, and all the magazines do this (I already know this to a certain extent) and that a lot of people never read the web (so I feel safe in typing this!). I also pointed out that the current tearout card in the issue before me has a different price of $22.96! Marketing. Again.

I told her I realized she was not in charge of this stuff, but asked if she thought it might be simpler for everyone involved if they just charged everyone one price? She agreed, but I don't think anything is going to change anytime soon.

At any rate (ha ha) I now have a two year subscription. We'll see if it gets delivered.

Bill

Dave Richards
09-22-2006, 10:59 AM
Bill, I'm glad you got the situation resolved to your satisfaction. I am puzzled however as to why they have a bank setting up magazine subscriptions. Ah, well. Banks have had to diversify their services.

Hope you get healthy soon.

Bill Grumbine
09-22-2006, 11:12 AM
Bill, I'm glad you got the situation resolved to your satisfaction. I am puzzled however as to why they have a bank setting up magazine subscriptions. Ah, well. Banks have had to diversify their services.

Hope you get healthy soon.

Hi Dave

The lady at PW said she was looking at my file, and could see where the people at PW had initially entered a two year subscription for me, but that the deposit came back from the bank for one year instead of two. So, they had to change it in their computer. I asked, but did not get an answer on how they can track a check to the bank and back for each individual before crediting an account and still have an error like this. It is beyond me. When I get checks, I take them to the bank. Either they clear or they bounce. Fortunately for me, I have only had two bounced checks in 13 1/2 years of business, and both parties made good on them immediately. I'm not on the same scale as PW, but they are small fish compared to a lot of other businesses too.

I think what happens is that someone in the bank or at PW shovels everything into one big pile for one year deposits and another big pile for two years, etc. No one looks at the real numbers on each individual item anymore. Of course, there was the obigatory "this is all done by machines now" stuff, which absolves all humans. I know about the human error part at the bank because I have watched tellers put the wrong account on my receipt and I have to correct them. I have had tellers miscount money in front of me, and I have miscounted in front of them. That is why we need to do it a couple of times for more than a little.

I make mistakes all the time, but I usually say something to the effect of "It is my fault, I made an error". Of course, if there is a convenient patsy around to take the fall for me... :p

Bill

Frank Fusco
09-22-2006, 12:53 PM
Magazine subscriptions are an eternal mystery. Somehow my wife got connected to a never ending bubble machine of magazines. She gets three or four in the mail every day on subjects neither of us have any interest in. They pile up quickly and I frequently take them to the library and put in their free exchange box. This has been going on for years and she has never received an invoice. My fear is that one day a bill will come for $5,000.00 (or more). We don't even know who to contact to stop this other than the individual magazines and there are dozens of them, it would be a huge job.

Michael Cody
09-22-2006, 4:03 PM
Bill I really do understand your frustration, but I just have to ask "why did you bother will all this?" I would have looked at my bank statement, verified what I got charged (ie what they took out of your account for this check) as you know the check number.. then if it was 19.97$, forgotten about it, if not then got on PW's & the bank's case to get my money back or a longer subscription.

You spent massively over 20$ worth of time & effort on this and the result is you have a 1 year subscription, which is what you had in the first place. I know principal is involved, but it's sorta like the gravestone of the guy with the right of way in a car accident -- it says "at least he was right" ....

Now as for cashing a check for the wrong amount, I install computer systems at banks as part of my job, in addition my sister was check proofer for a couple of years.. They processed betwixt 12-15 thousand checks per shift... the average teller does a couple hundred of transactions per shift, a deposit from someone like PW is probably a few thousand transactions.. IE The opportunity for error is massive... your problem is exactly is why I never write checks if it can be avoided.. electronic transfers are much much more accurate and easier. Not to mention every piece of info someone needs to withdraw money from your account, by a electronic transaction, is on every check. There is no security either on a ACH transaction.

As for the web-site vs paper card.. well I have to admit that is pretty much the consumer's problem. While I can see that some view this as a dubious practice, I personally don't. The options for a lower price are made available, but some don't take advantage of them. Actually from the Mag's point of view, sending in a card is more costly to process, not to mention the price of putting the card in. If they didn't put the card in, some (not me) would complain of being made to call or got to a web site to get a subscription. So they charge a higher price, they have a higher cost and are fullfilling some customers requirements. You filled out a card and sent a check, if you had called them or checked the web, you would have saved money. I just something similar this week, got a hotel reservation for a training package I went on, got my quote online, made my reservations. Called the hotel direct the day before I was due there, talked to the day manager, saved over 200$ for the 5 day stay, made new reservations, called and canceled the old one.. 15 minutes, 200$ savings - well worth the effort. Opportunities lost are opportunities lost.. Sorta like Harbor Freight with it's old 5 part numbers with 5 different prices. You can play the game or choose not to play.

I know I have different view of this process than some, but life is complex enough without choosing to fight battles you can't possibly win. All you do is run your blood pressure up. Turning is much more fun, so why waste time involved in activity that beyond making sure you aren't losing money, isn't productive? I also have to admit I don't have any magazine subscriptions but I do have web subscriptions .. different strokes for different folks.

Bill Grumbine
09-22-2006, 5:16 PM
Hi Mike

In most cases I will look at something and see if it is worth my time to deal with it or not, and if so in what manner and to what degree. In this case, I had plenty of time on my hands, sitting around with a stomach virus and not in the shop.

I understand how people at banks can make mistakes processing checks. I still do not understand how they managed to process it for exactly half of what I wrote it for, which also turns out to be a one year subscription. :confused: I also ended up with a two year subscription, after which I will probably go back to buying it on the news stand or at our local Woodcraft store. These subscription "deals" just aren't worth it. I am still wondering why I broke my own rule about subscribing, but I did it. I think a lot of it had to do with just missing an issue where a friend of mine had an article published. By the time I found out, it was gone.

I hate writing checks too. I write about three to four a year out of my business account, using my debit card for everything else. It was the mystery of not finding the check, plus the paid amount not matching the sent amount that really got me curious, and since I had the time with nothing else to do, I figured I would amuse myself - sort of masochistic maybe, but at least it passed the time. :D

Bill

Rennie Heuer
09-22-2006, 5:24 PM
Bill,

This was not a really good day at work - lots of problems. Then I found this post. I want to thank you for making me smile, if not laugh out loud. You have certainly had a few issues (pun intended) with PW!

Unlike some others here, I have maintained subscriptions to nearly all of the WW magazines for many years. I'm a charter subscriber to Wood, have many years worth of FWW, AW, PW, and a few others thown in for good measure.

Years ago I gave up writing checks and now pay EVERYTHING via Quicken electronically - and I only renew on web sites or via the publisher. I NEVER pay any attention to the third party renewal notices that come in the mail. I know within 24 hours which payments were honored and for exactly how much. Maybe I'm just a phobic control freak. (Could be as I find myself identifying more and more with Monk)

Fortunately, and perhaps uniquely, I have never run into problems like those you describe. None-the-less, my heart goes out to you and I hope it gets better.

Thanks again.

Rennie

JayStPeter
09-22-2006, 5:55 PM
Bill,

I've gone exclusively to doing all my subscriptions over the web. Most have a pretty good system and actually e-mail you in a reasonable amount of time before your subscription ends and don't spam (including PWW). Having subscribed to up to 30 magazines at a time in the past, I would say that many editors even get fed up with the way subscriptions are handled by their companies. I've had conversations, both live and email, with a few editors of major mags and all have been politely frustrated by the number of subscribers they lose to "subscription services" both within their own company and outside.
For some reason it seems that the web is processed different than the sub cards. Usually, but not always, when you receive tons of renewal notices it means you've used a subscription service outside the publisher themselves. It is especially bad with charity services. It's like they get your name on a "sucker" list. Now I usually just donate $5 to the cause and forego the subscriptions. I also suspect the renewal scam is how some subscription services manage to give the extremely cheap subscription rates you can sometimes find.
I used to have to keep a sheet of when each sub ended and how much I paid last time to avoid the scams. With fewer (5 I think) subscriptions all web based now, I haven't had a problem in a few years. It also made it almost a pleasure to deal with address changes when I moved a few years ago.

Jay