Justifying your hobby

[Doug Jones]

Was reading a post (selling pens and other turnings), and a question popped into my head.

If a person feels the need to sell their items in order to justify their "hobby" expense, then is this really a hobby that one should be into?

What I'm getting at is, this is a hobby (for most of us) and each persons expense is their own business, but when someone starts spending outside of their means and have the need to sell, then is it a hobby anymore?
Basically just rambling and pondering life,,,

[Steve Clardy]

I turned my woodworking hobby into a job. Its no longer a hobby;) :rolleyes: :)

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Valid question Doug.

For me, I'll not be selling any pens, until I can make some that are worth selling :o but it is a good question.

If you are doing it as a business, then that is that but as a hobby, well, I look at it this way, if I have some turned items, and I want to give them away as presents, that is cool, but what happens when I want to give them away, and then the person I give one of my bowls to says "I really like this, and I'd love to give one to my ________ , can you make me one similar to this and of the same wood.......?" with that kind of a request, then I'd expect them to pay for something, at least the wood, and some time etc. (all bets off if my family asks this kind of thing, as they are "Family").

Lots of guys are on a limited budget, and if they can make something like pens and there is a market to sell them, why not.....?

I have to agree that to start turning with the idea that the hobby will pay for itself is somewhat of a stretch, but if I can sell 10 pens for $20 each and end up with enough money, after the expense of the kits etc, to buy myself a new tool or two, why not? I'd rather do that, than take the $150 or so out of the family budget.

I give myself an allowance each month for pocket money and Dungeon stuff, often I do not spend any of it, and it adds up, so when I want to spend some money on something, I can, without any hassles.

Interesting question, I'll be waiting to see some other replies.

Cheers!:D

[Matt Warfield]

I see it a few ways. For some, selling their wares can be an extension of their hobby. They may not have anyone to enjoy what they do and simply sitting in a booth watching people enjoy your work is rewarding in its own right. But, that needs to be done within your budget as well or it becomes a stress adder wondering if you're going to recoup your travelling expenses. It's amazing the relief felt when you break even.

There's a distinct difference between selling in a booth and being commissioned for a project. That difference is that preparing product for a booth type setting is done on your time where a commission is usually on the customer's time...or feels that way anyway.

For me, there are sometimes when I want to build something for the challenge or because I like it. If the wife doesn't like it, it's either relegated to a family member or sold - to "justify" my expensive hobby. Mind you, it's not myself that I have to justify it to. :rolleyes:

[Reed Gray]

For years I considered myself a semi-pro woodworker. I made enough to support my habbit, pay some bills, but not enough to quit the day job. Now I do it full time, and I am having just as much fun as ever. It isn't my sole source of income, but it helps a lot. I now consider myself a 'serious hobbyist' It took me 40 years of working to find what I feel I was ment to do. A good part of the fun is doing the work. Another is the social aspect of doing shows, dealing with customers, talking to other woodworkers, and acting as a mentor. I can't ever see getting tired or bored doing this. I do sometimes feel that need has nothing to do with buying some tools, but I do exercise some restraint. It is all part of the learning process.
robo hippy

[Frank Kobilsek]

Doug,
I got a good job, sometimes I don't like it, but my most peoples standards its a good job both financially and academically. So 'means' ain't the deal.

While the Republican Catholic Capitalist Engineer in me loves it when somebody gives me money, the real test is if the average citizen is impressed enough with my 'art' to look me in the eye and pay for it. Granted the average citizen is truely uneducated in our hobby so it gives all of us who enjoy turning regardless of experience the opportunity to test our skills as both turners and marketers. I think Bert's thread was really a 'Hey, this is fun, but what am I going to do with 40 or 50 pens and at some point my friends and family are going to think I'm nuts if I don't figure out what to do with them' The Craft show thing is fun for me. I wouldn't do it every weekend but the carnival of it is great fun spinning yarns at folks and sharing my obsession. So there is satisfaction and fullfilment for me at three levels 1) Enjoying the time of creating. 2) Fullfillment by the appreciation of others, 3) Enjoying the company of customers (maybe thats my BS skills).

My nieghbor lost his job in his early fifties and announced he was going on the road selling the jelly and jam he makes. Built a commercial kitchen on the side of his house. There is no way in God's green earth he will ever get a return on investment in that kitchen, but he loves to picked fruit, pack it in jars and loadin' up the truck, going to shows and fairs. You see I think he's nuts but I'm just a natural artist. Whats the difference?

I use my hobby many ways and selling is just one of those ways. A few bucks to justify the next tool lust is just bonus. My veiw of the world is different from most but thats the way I see it.

Frank

[Julio Navarro]

I think that it stops being a hobby and become a lively hood when you depend on it and not doing it will hurt how you provide for your family or yourself.

Some people are lucky enough to turn their hobby into a livelyhood. Often they end up really loving what they do for a living. But all to often the desire and satisfaction of a hobby is gone and what was once an enjoyable endeavor turns into work.

I saw a commercial the other day for the first time. It was an old timer(relatively, of course) who ran a classic car repair place, the background was all warm and fuzzy. He was telling a customer who owned a very expensive type car that he was retiring to do what he really loved before he got to old to do it. Scene fades out, narrator for an investment company, then the scene fades in again and this time its a different old timer(relative again) running the shop and the same fellow who had brought his car to the former owner asked this new guy if he was the new owner. The new guy who looked about the same age as the previous retired owner says that he decided to give up his old career and retire to do what he really loved...and bought that shop.

so I guess that its all in how you see what you find around you. One mans ceiling... sort of thing.

[Keith Burns]

Ok, here is my slant on this. I do woodworking as a hobby. I don't sell my work to support my hobby. What little I do sell just helps buy more tools or other stuff. Woodworking is fun for me. If I did woordworking as "my job" then it would cease to be fun and become work. I already work 45 to 50 hours a week at my "day" job and don't want a night job, too.

[Dario Octaviano]

Doug,

From your scenario, it looks like the hobby turned into an addiction...a problem a lot of us suffer (me included).

In this case, I believe it is still a hobby...until the hobbyist becomes a PRO. Then his spending problem becomes INVESTMENTS :D ;)

[Richard Jones]

I shoot/shot IPSC as a hobby and an Open gun costs about the same as a nice Oneway, Limited gun about like a Powermatic. Even after that, you still gotta load ammo and practice and buy mags and bullets and primers and powder and gas to go to matches and cleats and muffs and holsters and mag pouches and practice and pay match fees and motels for major matches and practice and ...........and............ad infinitum........ If I had started younger I might have made a living at it, but got started too late.

Yeah, turning is a hobby to me, even if I sell stuff..... :) And not too far of a drive to my lathe..........

Rich in VA

[Raymond Overman]

In my situation proceeds from sales provides me the means to replenish consumables in my shop and purchase new tools. I haven't had to take anything out of my families checking account or put anything on a credit card for three years when I wanted to buy a new tool or pay the entry fees for a show. My AAW and American Craft Council membership came out of proceeds last year. I don't even have to ask my wife before I use that money which is nice.

It's not a business. It is my hobby and I'm lucky that it supports itself. I enjoy every part of it including the sales part. My dad and I love to talk to each person that stops and looks at our turnings almost as much as we do the turning process itself.

[John Shuk]

I say...To each his/her own.

[Bill O'Conner]

Doug,

From your scenario, it looks like the hobby turned into an addiction...a problem a lot of us suffer (me included).

In this case, I believe it is still a hobby...until the hobbyist becomes a PRO. Then his spending problem becomes INVESTMENTS :D ;)

I just want to know when this happens

I know mine is just an addiction but hey it could be worst, I looked at my online spending and what I've sold so far and the spending outways the income so I'd have to say it's still an addiction( but I'm I having fun doing it)

Bill

[Tony Falotico]

Ok, here is my slant on this. I do woodworking as a hobby. I don't sell my work to support my hobby. What little I do sell just helps buy more tools or other stuff. Woodworking is fun for me. If I did woordworking as "my job" then it would cease to be fun and become work.

Amen to what Keith says, for me this is a hobby, enjoyment, stress release, whatever you want to call it. I go to the shop when I feel like, I don't go when I don't feel like. I don't push woodworking, that is, create deadlines to have pieces finished or over-stress myself to complete a project. I work at my own snails pace and enjoy each step of the project.

I have an unrelated 'day job' that pays the bills, If I want stress and aggravation I can always the go there !! :D

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Mine is a self supporting hobby! It pays for my new tools and some goodies, like some of the excursions when we Cruise.

The reality is that I turn WHEN I WANT TO, not just because I need product for a show. To me, turning is an AVOCATION, Not a vocation. I will take comissions, but only a few, when they are a challange or when the reason interests me..

Bruce

[Don Baer]

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had with Sam Maloof while walking from his house to his shop. He said that he retired 50 years ago. Now he does what he does because it is what he loves to do. I am aspiring to be in the same position as he is in. Sure he makes money doin g wood work but he does it besauce he loves to. The money he makes because someone wants to buy his works is just a bonus. You are a luckey person if you can make money doeing something that you love to do.

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

AMEN!!!!!!!

Bruce

[Corey Hallagan]

I know where Bart is coming from. It's a hobby for me. If I couldn't afford to get into the hobby then I wouldn't of. However, it is nice to sell some stuff along the way. When I can sell a pen or two, I can buy something I need for the shop or want.
The only thing I would caution anyone is don't get too carried away. You can spend alot of money getting ready for a show and not have much to show for it after one. I prefer to just show my stuff where I can and let people see what I do and If I get an order or two then fine, if not.... no biggie. I always have pens or other items ready for a gift and I think it is fun to give a nice handmade item.

Corey

[Raymond Overman]

I don't push woodworking, that is, create deadlines to have pieces finished or over-stress myself to complete a project. I work at my own snails pace and enjoy each step of the project.

I'll agree to that. The only times I find myself aggravated in my shop is when I have a project that I HAVE to complete by a certain time. I much prefer the slow, meandering exploration of woodturning than the production duplicate pieces. However, I do accept the commissions every once in a while and charge accordingly so that the ends justify the means. Most groups of pens I've turned lately I've considered jobs which I guess means business.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Don said it best when you can make money while loving what you do. How much better can you have it.

I have sold pens, bowls, etc. but don't advertise it. I had a lady come in to have a clock repaired and she saw the walnut plates I made. She said she sure would like a set only in a lighter wood and she pointed at some curly maple & cherry I had. She wanted to know if I could make her a set with saucers. I told her yes and gave her a price. I told her the only stipulation was it may be 6 or 8 months before she got them. She said no problem. I have turned down several things because they wanted them tomorrow. I will not do things if there is a deadline especially if it has a lot of pieces or is a set of something. Don't need or want the stress. Got enough of that in my life and my full time job.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

A good buddy of mine says....

"Find a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life!" :D

......it is true for him too, lucky sod! ;) :)

[Scott Loven]

How many pens/bowls etc. does a guy need? If you really enjoy making pens/bowls etc. you need to find something to do with them or they are going to start stacking up all over the place. You need to give them away or sell them. Why not make a little money to cover the cost of the hardware and some more to cover the cost of new/better equipment?
Scott

[Kenneth Hertzog]

Hi
what scott said. How many does one person need. If you like doing wood working and its fun do it. I don't smoke, drink, or watch TV so my wood working is also my habit. I enjoy it and I do sell a few items once in a while but if I want to give it away I do that also. My accountant said its time to turn hobby into business for the tax advantage. Don't make any money all year but my paycheck comes with an IRS refund instead of paying.
ken

[Doug Jones]

How many pens/bowls etc. does a guy need? If you really enjoy making pens/bowls etc. you need to find something to do with them or they are going to start stacking up all over the place. You need to give them away or sell them. Why not make a little money to cover the cost of the hardware and some more to cover the cost of new/better equipment?
Scott

This is all fine and good, but you miss the point.
If you feel the need to sell in order to help offset the hobby cost.
Selling for the sake of selling is good, but the need to sell in order to maintain the hobby is not good.
I'm not referring to people that have turned their wwing into a business.

[Travis Stinson]

Doug, I don't know of many hobbies that don't cost $$$$. I could have probably bought several Oneway 2436's with the money I spent racing motocross. All I have to show for that is a bunch of $3 plastic trophys, but I loved it. I don't know about the "need" to sell to offset the cost, but it sure is nice that turning "can" be a somewhat self-supporting hobby.;)

[Frank Kobilsek]

Travis and others have made me think of a old business mentor of mine who said 'If you want to get rich sell something to a man's (or womens) hobby. In business and at home we make rational decisions and shop for best price. For our hobbies we purchase on emotion and price doesn't matter.' I guess that explains $1000 golf clubs and $500 fishing poles. Thankfully all the tools and products sold to woodturners are value priced and outperform our every expectation.
Frank

[Jim Becker]

Doug, I don't have any problem at all with someone who "needs to sell work to support the hobby". In fact, I think that shows some initiative since it may be the only way that individual can do something they truly enjoy under certain financial situations and they find a way to engage that works for them. Granted, there is also "room for abuse" if someone gets into what I'll term obsessive accumulation of stuff and has to become a frantic producer to pay for it all, but I don't think that applies to most folks I observe who sell work to help support their avocation. In fact, I think it's wonderful that this thing called woodworking actually provides the opportunity for so many to benefit financially if they choose to do so! Not many "hobbies" offer that outside of a very few, very skilled people.

While I have sold a very small number of pieces because someone really wanted to acquire them, I have not generally been interested in woodworking for money, whether turning or flat work. I do this for mental health. (yea, I need all I can get) The last "commission" I did was essentially "for free", although I was later blessed with a few interesting books from the receiver as well as a lot of very valuable stock I can use for future projects from the man who designed and "commissioned" the project. "Blessed" barely covers adequately the extent of my actual payment...in purple heart, mahogany, bocote and other species that now are in my rack... ;)

[Doug Jones]

Some real good and interesting answers and opinions. Thanks for your inputs.

[Robert Mickley]

I wouldn't call it a hobby, but then again I wouldn't call it a job either. :D Whether turning or flat work I do it because I like it. Yeah I have a bunch of stuff at the farmers market at my brothers stand. If it sells fine, if it doesn't fine. I used to do a few craft shows a year and may do it again. Then again I may not. Don't get me wrong I like to sell stuff. It's mad money for the shop and if I didn't sell some of it it would soon over run me.

[Dennis Peacock]

I also agree to what Keith and Tony already said.
I've been a woodworker for just over 30 years now (off and on) and in the past few years I decided to take on commission work to help support the hobby and help us fund getting materials for our own furniture. Then came the deadlines, pushy customers, design changes well into the project, and etc, etc, etc.....It very quickly became more of a pain that a fun hobby. Fortunately, Mark Cothren and the LOML combined have helped me keep my hobby as a hobby and it's a LOT more fun that way. Money isn't everything, but every once in a while, it does come in handy. :rolleyes: :D

[Jim Underwood]

I think it would be great to sell something... I can't afford the tools I bought today.:eek:

Anyone want to buy a bowl?

How about a parting tool?:rolleyes:

[Bart Leetch]

I prefer to just show my stuff where I can and let people see what I do and If I get an order or two then fine, if not.... no biggie. I always have pens or other items ready for a gift and I think it is fun to give a nice handmade item.

Just what I had in mind Corey.:)

[Richard Madison]

Doug,
If someone else spends "outside of their means", it is none of my business. If I spend outside of my means, regardless of the subject of the expenditure, then I need to re-think my priorities and probably get some professional counseling.

[Claude Arragon]

I never sold anything... It's the others who are buying from me :D
Am I a Hobbyist?

[Mark Singer]

I really never intended to sell anything or build furniture on commision....it just seems to happen. The Wenge dining table I just sold, I thought would be my personal last one.....a client wanted it and as they say, everything has a price....the love hate relationship I had building the Teak sofa with the mitered dovetails was for an architect friend, I couldn't say no! I worked for about half of what I should have because he was a good friend. I have been asked to participate in the local Laguna Art Festivals....I don't want to give up my summers....I like having fun and I don't have the time. Yesterday my wife said to me "It will be nice when you finish Jeyong's (My client) furniture ....it wil free up your weekends" ....my response was they are free and I am having a great time . I probably could design and build furniture full time and do ok.....my delema is I love Architecture also! I have worked hard all my life at things I Love....and as I say with every post "All Great Work begins with Love.....then it is no longer Work"...this has been very true....I have tried to do my best.....and it has turned into more work .....if I didn't like what I am doing , I would be miserable....because I have a lot of it. Instead I feel I am reaping the rewards of working at things you love ...the rewards are more work:confused: yes and while there are things that really seem like work on these really large pieces like a 750 pound 12' long wenge table....I wouldn't trade it for anything.....I wake up each morning excited....details fill my head ...solving yesterdays little problems .....trying something new....a lot of my friends my age are bored and envious...they never aquired the skills and now in retirement they are lost with no passion....

Almost forgot....tools! When you use them as much as I do there is no guilt.....they brought me to where I am ....I love them ....but not polshing my planes and putting them in a glass case....they are on my bench, or in the cabinet waiting for there turn at bat....the most expensive machine I own is The MM Elite S Jointer / Planer / mortiser and after the first project I used it on it was paid for! I try to get things that will improve my woodworking and I avoid gagets ....Hand tools are a joy and everytime I pick up a saw or rasp....I think of my Father....he built my first workbench when I was 5 years old....I guess he is to blame for the mess I am in..."Thanks Dad ! I am loving every minute...wish you could help me again"

[tod evans]

mark, that`s the best post i`ve read in a long while! thanks, tod

[Jim Becker]

Excellent post, Mark. It covers all the bases.

[Ernie Nyvall]

Was reading a post (selling pens and other turnings), and a question popped into my head.

If a person feels the need to sell their items in order to justify their "hobby" expense, then is this really a hobby that one should be into?

What I'm getting at is, this is a hobby (for most of us) and each persons expense is their own business, but when someone starts spending outside of their means and have the need to sell, then is it a hobby anymore?
Basically just rambling and pondering life,,,

There are minor differences in the definition of "hobby", but basically all come down to: an activity engaged in for pleasure and relaxation during spare time... unless you are talking about a bird or toy horse:D

A hobby HAS to be paid for one way or the other. If you have to work overtime on your regular job to pay for the hobby, it's still a hobby. If you have to sell your goods to pay for the hobby, it's still a hobby. Even worrying over whether or not you could sell enough goods to pay for that last tool, doesn't mean that you can't meet that definition. If you HAVE to turn and sell 500 pens per week to pay for that last lathe, you may be completely nuts, but it may still be pleasurable and relaxing. That could be two hobbies... turning the pens and then selling them. However you decide to pay for the hobby, as long as it doesn't change the definition, it's still a hobby. So I guess it would be a matter of each person's ability to keep the method of payment for the hobby from becoming part of the definition.... And now my head hurts.:D