Grizzly sliding table saw

[Chris McDowell]

Someone mentioned that I should look into the Grizzly brand of sliding table saws. Said they were very robust and of good quality. Does anybody out there know anything about these saws?
I just ordered the new magazine and am starting to look it over. I hear good comments about Grizzly and then I hear awful comments about them. I would like to know if anyone has had any experience with the company. My parents are going to go on vacation near the Springfield showroom before long and I was thinking about having them stop in and looking for me.
I was also told the President of Grizzly himself frequents this forum, and if that is so sir I would be very interested in hearing from you about your product. Perhaps if everyone sees me asking you for information they won't think you are trying to push your product.
As always all information will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Chris

[John Fry]

I love Grizzly! "Almost" my whole shop is Grizzly green.

Grizzly

1023SL Table Saw
6" Jointer
8" Jointer (with Byrd Shelix head)
20" Planer (with Byrd Shelix head)
Oscillating spindle sander
Edge Sander
3 HP shaper
14 X 40" Heavy duty lathe
14" Band Saw
Two power feeders

Non Grizzly

1200 Legacy mill
Laguna 16HD Band Saw
Craftsman RAS
Craftsman drill press
Dewalt SCMS
Performax 16-32 sander

I think I've built some pretty nice stuff on these machines and I would buy Grizzly again in a heartbeat! In six years I've only had one problem and they took care of it immediately with no questions asked.

I've kinda got my eye on that new 5 HP, left tilt, 12" table saw. I just need to see some more specs and I want to ask Papa Grizzly about the riving knife and a couple of other questions.

[Dave Harker]

I am very happy with my G1023SL table saw, G1018HW 8" jointer, and G1029 dust collector.

Good luck,
Dave

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Yep, I hope it is a fun and informative discussion........... :D

[Jay Brewer]

Grizzly has only been distributing these saws for a year or so. They are made in China, and not really that much cheaper in price. I have owned Grizzly in the past, and is decent stuff, but building a good cabinet saw and a good slider are two different things. Stick with the companys that know how to build them. If your looking under $10K, you cant go wrong with Felder or Mini Max, In a year from know you want miss that little extra money to get a quality saw. Just my opinion

[lou sansone]

chris

take a look at the exploded view of how grizz adjusts the slider raceways. I think that will tell you a lot

lou

[Paul B. Cresti]

OOOooooo...well I got like no sleep once again.... I am already hyped up with coffee and now I see this

On top of that I am expected to "flip out", people are getting their popcorn ready, pulling up there chairs, filling up their coffee mugs (I am too, except it is espresso), sooooooo...........well hate to disappoint you but Jay and Lou said just about all that needs to be said.

No offense to the company that is importing those saws but how can an importer/cloner be expected to perfect a design of a machine that was not of their own learning experience, through trial and error & extensive industry usage, and yet produce a good piece of machinery. On top of that add a service or tech department that most likely has never even seen or even operated (I am assuming here so could be dead wrong) a saw like this. How are they going to help you align that thing when Joe White has only known American style cabinet saws or jointers all his life? Just go to one of the woodworking shows and see the reaction you get out of the average woodworker who sees a slider for the first time in their life. They have now idea how to react to it...now you expect to have a person like that help you with this same machine? Now this is all conjured here say on my part but I think I might not be that far off unless the importer trains their employees extensively on this machine.

I have also seen in some trade magazines a European style slider (looks suspiciously close to the Grizzly adaptation of the "Altendorf") and I believe that company was called Worx?? So it now seems that the floodgates for sliders, from the Asian market, may be opening.

If you really sit down and begin to compare the prices they are not all that much less in comparison to a tried and true machine. I tend to believe the people looking at these machines are first time buyers that more or less have "sticker shock" from the prices of mainstream companies. I personally cannot see a larger company or even one that simply is established fall for "save a few bucks".
In addition, as with all businesses, “time is money” and they do not have the time or desire to take a chance to play around with something. Even I, as small as a company I am, do not have time to waste. When I receive a new machine I am up all night to get it up and running the next day.

These saws for as “simple” as they appear to be need to be engineered correctly in order to act simply. The only way you can understand how to engineer a product is through years of design, usage, trial & error by both you the designed and the end user. Maybe in years down the line they may be adequate but for now, my personal opinion is to stay away…obviously others opinions may vary.

[tod evans]

chris, i`d like to expand on a couple of the other fellows views, first off as you know the customer votes with his pocketbook...when we buy equipment we`re telling the company selling the equipment that we think they`re providing good value for our dollar. the issues i have is how the company is able to provide the value, steel is steel whether it`s machined on a cnc in india/china/germany/italy or the usa, the cost of the equipment used to process the raw materials is pretty much a given as are the cost of the materials themselves. so that leaves two major costs a company must incur in order to provide equipment to the market, labor and r&d. this is where it becomes difficult for the buyer, lots of folks have accepted the fact that we as a nation don`t produce much woodworking equipment at all anymore.....ever wonder why? there are several companies in the world who design and produce quality machines such as sliding tablesaws these folks have teams of engineers who`s sole purpose in life is to design better/more productive/safer and more marketable machines. the savvy buyer knows this and looks to these companies for the benchmark. there will always be followers, those who take others designs and find ways to incorperate them into a product that they can market for less money but if the customer chooses to side with the followers rather than the leaders soon the follower will become the leader then where will the consumer be? it`s really a hard call for the small business man to make, does he shop on price? does he shop on quality? or does he look for a company he feels provides both in a manner that will allow them to continue to innovate and grow so they can be there to support his purchase and possibly provide solutions to future production issues none of us can invision?
so in your quest to process panels more efficiently with a sliding tablesaw when weighing the issues of trunions/concrete and slider adjustment you would be wise to think about what companys future you want to invest in....02 tod

[Shiraz Balolia]

Grizzly has only been distributing these saws for a year or so. They are made in China, and not really that much cheaper in price. I have owned Grizzly in the past, and is decent stuff, but building a good cabinet saw and a good slider are two different things. Stick with the companys that know how to build them. If your looking under $10K, you cant go wrong with Felder or Mini Max, In a year from know you want miss that little extra money to get a quality saw. Just my opinion

Actually, we have been selling sliding tablesaws for almost 5 years, and they are made in Taiwan, not China.

Chris - you will find many "experts" here willing to share their expertise, many never having used one of our saws. You will also find many "elitists" who will defend the fact that if it isn't made in Europe, it isn't any good. These people live in the past.

More to your question on hand - our G0501 slider is the best one we have. All of its electric controls are replacable locally, should you not wish to wait a couple of days for the parts to arrive from our parts dept. (this is only in case of a failure which is rare on this saw). We also demonstrated a new model at the IWF show in Atlanta last month. This is the larger, more automated brother of the G0501 with power fence, power "everything" and digital controls. In one of our demonstrations, we would take a nickel (provided by the customer) and stand it up against the fence. Then we would move the fence away from the nickel using the electronic digital controls. The nickel would, of course remain standing. Next we would return the fence using the electronic controls back to the nickel. Now imagine a fence moving on its own towards the nickel, and everyone thinking that that it will fall the moment the fence touches it. The nickel would remain standing with the fence perfectly touching it. That shows precise accuracy.

The common comment at the show was that the customers could not believe the quality of these saws. They expected less! We sold a pile of sliders at the show, with one person going to try to retrieve a deposit he had made for a similar European saw that cost more than twice the money. The Pauls and Todds of this world can jump up and down all they want, but it isn't going to change the fact that we offer incredible value for your tool dollar, and allow you to buy more machines for less. Plus, we have a world class customer service and parts department that will take care of any issue you may have quickly. You can buy with confidence.

[Jay Brewer]

Thanks for the correction Shiraz, so how long have they been reserching, designing, and building Format saws in Taiwan?

[Paul B. Cresti]

I too would like to echo Jay's question. Please correct me if I am wrong but I do not remember seeing all of those sliders you have in your catalog and online that you have now, five years ago. Also most of them, at least a year ago (approx) had the "new" tag on them. Does this mean that they were not new?

I would also like to say that you should not group people into "Pauls and Tods" I can only speak for myself but I am sure no one else wants to be like me :D Just imagine a world filled with "Pauls".......oh wait a second I think i might like that.....oh then again I would constantly be arguing with myself how to correctly detail and fabricate something or how to design a particular building....ok so never mind I change my mind, only one "Paul" in this world.

Yes it is correct I have never used the sliders you import but have you used ALL the European models that your imported saws "appear" to look the same as? Have you ever ran a slider all day long? I hate to say it but the "experts", at least in my minds eye, (and I agree my mind is an interesting one) is the guys that
bang it out all day long" or even the guys that created these saw and evolved them through year and years of research, development and feedback. You can honestly say in those short "five years" you state, that your manufacturer has "designed", fabricated, tested and gotten feedback from the industry so that your imported product truly is on par with those long standing "European" saws? Do you mean I can truly believe that a product that is being sold for roughly 8k is the same as a product being sold for 30k? If it is I think that you are the first one in history to be able to accomplish this and you should truly be applauded for your tremendous achievemnets.

Oh and your nickel test???? ummm can't recall ever needing to or wanting to do that. Did you borrow that from Laguna??;)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I would also like to say that you should not group people into "Pauls and Tods"
Yah that was a tad hostile how he said it.



Oh and your nickel test???? ummm can't recall ever needing to or wanting to do that. Did you borrow that from Laguna??

I nickled my Felder Hammer. It put a few nickels on it and got a couplle of shiny new pennies to stand on edge too. then I powered it up and off a couple of times.
I really expected the electric brake to knock everything over. Nope the pennies and nickels stayed up.
Woo Hoo.

Whether Griz can make a good slider is I think going to depend entirely on: (1) the technology used to produce and machine the extrusions that make up the slider, (2) the guage and grade of Aluminum used, (3) the bearing assemblies under the slider and (4) everything else.
The extrusions and bearings are the only thing Griz hasn't done prior, and the technology isn't rocket science. So long as they make it heavy and don't produce Banana sliders they should be OK.

Powermatic has a slider too.

[tod evans]

shiraz,
since you felt the need to portray me as one who "jumps up and down" because your company is marketing sliding table saws, i must ask why you believe i would honor your market offerings with hysterics?
when i attended iwf and stopped at your booth to shake your hand it wasn`t to pay homage to the "tools" you market as you claim many where, it was to look into the eyes of the marketing genius behind the grizzly empire. i`ve never insulted you either on this forum or in person and frankly i`m appaled that you have chosen to portray me as less than a sensible, opinionated ol` carpenter. i sincerely hope the members of this forum are able to see past your marketing genius to the man who feels it`s necessary to insult others on a woodworking forum just because they won`t toe the party line.

looking down and shaking my head......tod

[Frank Pellow]

...
Powermatic has a slider too.
So does General International. See the thread: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=33652

[Gary Curtis]

Chris,
I went through the same worrying/evaluation for about a year before buying a General cabinet saw with their sliding table. Largely for economic reasons. A Mini Max or Knapp or Felder would have been preferable, and still might be in the future.

Here's a challenge to consider in getting a Grizzly. You'll have to assemble the slider to the saw. That takes some muscle and pretty finicky adjusting. So, ask the Grizzly people to give you the name of someone who owns that particular machine in your area. Visit that guy and ask questions.

In buying the General I knew I would not have the same support network available to Knapp/Felder/Mini Max, which each have their own online forum and user groups. The knowledge they share is remarkable.

Having bought my machine, I am something of an orphan and have to invent application. No literature. Good support, but no real fellowship. And be advised that a big component of European Format Saws (sliders) is ripping using that slider. That feature is out of the question with the bolt on sliding tables offered by General, Grizzly,Jet, etc. This eliminates perhaps the biggest safety margin offered by a slider.

Gary Curtis

[Shiraz Balolia]

shiraz,
...... i sincerely hope the members of this forum are able to see past your marketing genius to the man who feels it`s necessary to insult others on a woodworking forum just because they won`t toe the party line.

tod

Tod - don't throw a "punch" if you cannot take one.
You jumped in right away on this thread and said you were not a fan of Grizzly. You have right to your opinion, but it gets a little old when you go out of your way to make negative comments about us, over and over again.

[tod evans]

shiraz,
not being a fan of grizzly equipment has nothing to do with you personally...........at least in my eyes it doesn`t..tod

[Matt Warfield]

Tod - don't throw a "punch" if you cannot take one.
You jumped in right away on this thread and said you were not a fan of Grizzly. You have right to your opinion, but it gets a little old when you go out of your way to make negative comments about us, over and over again.

Shiraz,

I am a fan of Grizzly and have great appreciation for the support you've provided to the user community here. That being said, I have a hobby shop. Your products suit the hobby shop fantastically as many will agree. The fact that you've grown your company principally through mail order does indeed show a great deal of marketing skills. However, the professional market is fickle and slow to change their minds, justified or not. I also found your comment regarding the Chris's and Todd's as well below the level of your usual demeanor and completely unnecessary. You not only insulted Chris and Tod but also insulted the average person's intellegence who understands the difference between hobbyist and professional attitudes towards machinery investment. Normally, this would be in a PM but you've made this public so I thought I'd share the viewpoint of one of your customers.

Take Care,

Matt

[George Franklis]

-- snip --
It's just pretty much impossible for you to see any viewpoint other than your own, huh? I don't recall seeing anyone who was quicker than you are to criticize something they've never experienced.

You love your MM equipment, and I'm sure it's great. What baffles me is the amount of venom you spew anytime someone mentions a brand other than your beloved MM. What's especially amusing is how you try to be authoritarian about things with which you have no experience. It blows your credibility out of the water. In your universe (small as it may be), it's impossible that Griz could make a decent slider.

Tod, on the other hand, while he may disagree with some of the notions of a Griz slider, at least backs up his viewpoint with facts, not conjecture and supposition, and he's also willing to learn new things. Hats off to him.

[Joe Mioux]

Lou:

Why was Shiraz' comments below the belt but not the other way around?

[Mark Carlson]

I thought Paul and Tods responses were reasonable. Shiraz responses took a more personal tone that surprised me, with him being a representative of a company. Weird business practice.

~mark

[Jarrod Nelson]

Wow, he asked for opinions on a saw and got a lesson in world economics. ethics, engineering, marketing, and how to hold your ground on Internet forums! That's value.

I speak to what I know. I'm a hobbiest who has, in the past, purchased primarily Delta tools. Last year I bought a Grizzly jointer. I've been 100% happy with the quality, customer service, and shipping. I'm looking at buying a 14" band saw this year, and probably won't look much further then Griz.

To me, it seems the quality is right there with the Delta tools I was buying, but the prices are better.

Good luck with your purchases.

[Joe Mioux]

I thought Paul and Tods responses were reasonable. Shiraz responses took a more personal tone that surprised me, with him being a representative of a company. Weird business practice.

~mark

So Mark,

Would it be fair to say that if you criticized one of Paul's or Tod's woodworking projects, that they would not take it personally?

Joe

[Scott Henderson]

I thought Paul and Tods responses were reasonable. Shiraz responses took a more personal tone that surprised me, with him being a representative of a company. Weird business practice.

~mark

XXXX

What a couple of self-important popinjays. No slider input that I would use for making a decision. No input I would credit at all. Simple case of blanket denigration for whatever arcane reason they may have.

Politeness has its uses in society, but, in this case, it would behoove those two to xxxx if they have NO construtive input. Couching their sneering in terms crafted to fit within the oh, so correct language demanded here does nothing to lessen the crudeness of their unwarranted and ill-disguised slander of someone who strives to offer a full range of options to a wide range of woodworkers through engineering, manufacturing and marketing of quite fine and serviceable equipment.

We really do need to restrict the internet to keep out the undesirable and deleterious elements.

-30-

[Terre Hooks]

Lessee.....


Last month it was Jet.

This month it is Grizzly.



Who's got October?

[Scott Henderson]

Any brand that the designated moaner/whiner doesn't have, I'll warrant:mad:

[Paul B. Cresti]

It's just pretty much impossible for you to see any viewpoint other than your own, huh? I don't recall seeing anyone who was quicker than you are to criticize something they've never experienced.

You love your MM equipment, and I'm sure it's great. What baffles me is the amount of venom you spew anytime someone mentions a brand other than your beloved MM. What's especially amusing is how you try to be authoritarian about things with which you have no experience. It blows your credibility out of the water. In your universe (small as it may be), it's impossible that Griz could make a decent slider.

Tod, on the other hand, while he may disagree with some of the notions of a Griz slider, at least backs up his viewpoint with facts, not conjecture and supposition, and he's also willing to learn new things. Hats off to him.

Venom huh? Well if you think thats what it was so be it, you definately need to try to understand the perspective I am answering it from. It was called an opinion on a question about machines. The only info I can add is from my own experience and that is real life experience with these machines. Everyone here can either take it or leave it, it is entirely up to them. A fellow professional woodworker asked a question about a machine before he spent 8k or so. I can understand his confusion on what brand, what model and his reluctancy to spend the money all while knowing he needs to spend it in order to be competitive. Most of these machines are all new to us, as the MM machines I purchased were new to me. I had no one else to rely on to form my decision other than other fellow professional woodworkers. I asked them for their opinions and thought processes that allowed them to arrive at their choices. That input to me was invaluable. I guess you can say I am just returning the favor. One more thing I like to add is you need to read my comments with a bit less seriousness, I like to joke around and have a very dry sense of humor.

[Paul B. Cresti]

xxxx

What a couple of self-important popinjays. No slider input that I would use for making a decision. No input I would credit at all. Simple case of blanket denigration for whatever arcane reason they may have.

Politeness has its uses in society, but, in this case, it would behoove those two to xxxx if they have NO construtive input. Couching their sneering in terms crafted to fit within the oh, so correct language demanded here does nothing to lessen the crudeness of their unwarranted and ill-disguised slander of someone who strives to offer a full range of options to a wide range of woodworkers through engineering, manufacturing and marketing of quite fine and serviceable equipment.

We really do need to restrict the internet to keep out the undesirable and deleterious elements.

-30-

Scott,
Thanks for your input. How long have you had your slider? How did you arrive at your decision to purchase your machine? When you made your investment how did you way in service, factory support and the robustness & accuracy of the components over time? I can not really even begin to respond to your comments because I am not sure I quite understand them. You used so many big words that I cannot flip through my Websters fast enough.;)

[Mark Carlson]

So Mark,

Would it be fair to say that if you criticized one of Paul's or Tod's woodworking projects, that they would not take it personally?

Joe

I imagine they would. My point is that Shiraz should not start personal stuff when someone doesn't like the product he's selling. He's not going to win anyone over that way. He should correct any inacurrate statements and respectively disagree with opinions.

I regret responding to this post.

[Mark Carlson]

XXXX

What a couple of self-important popinjays. No slider input that I would use for making a decision. No input I would credit at all. Simple case of blanket denigration for whatever arcane reason they may have.

Politeness has its uses in society, but, in this case, it would behoove those two to XXXX if they have NO construtive input. Couching their sneering in terms crafted to fit within the oh, so correct language demanded here does nothing to lessen the crudeness of their unwarranted and ill-disguised slander of someone who strives to offer a full range of options to a wide range of woodworkers through engineering, manufacturing and marketing of quite fine and serviceable equipment.

We really do need to restrict the internet to keep out the undesirable and deleterious elements.

-30-

Still regretting responding. See previous post.

[Alan Simpson]

I've seen this whole situation play out before on other forums. Keeping in mind that the VAST majority of those reading these threads never post in them, I'd like to give my explanation as a bystander.

Some people do not like Grizzly. They all have their reasons, but 99% of them have never been in the same room with a Grizzly tool. They offer "expert" advise about why the tool they have never laid eyes on is so inferior to the "quality" brand they recommend (and own).

But they are the predictable group. The far more irritating group, are the posters who try to hide their dislike of Grizzly (and their reasons are the same as the first group). They make comments like "I don't care one way or another but Shiraz shouldn't talk to someone like that. I will never do business with them... yadda yadda.) Let's all get this straight: THEY WERE NEVER GOING TO GIVE HIM THEIR MONEY ANYWAYS. They wait for opportunities to pile on to the Grizzly bashing so they can play the holier than thou role.

I have never heard a constructive piece of advise come from either one of these group as it actually pertains to the TOOLS, yet... they are the ones doing the majority of the posting in these ridiculous threads. SO why shouldn't Shiraz stand up to this behavior??? HIS behavior is at fault??? I don't think so. His behavior is commendable and far more honorable than the other types.

I will have no problem giving my money to a man who cares enough and has enough faith in his tools to STAND UP to the people who recklessly slander him and his tools with feigned "knowledge".

Alan

[Chris McDowell]

Wow! What a little thread this turned out to be. First let me thank everyone for their opinion. I myself did not feel insulted. I'm pretty thick skinned so you probably couldn't hurt my feelings with a sledge hammer. If anyone else feels insulted I feel I should apologize for starting a thread that I had no idea would be this controversial.
Shiraz, I am not insulted by anything you said and appreciate the president of any company taking time to talk to potential customers so let me say,Thank You.
Keep in mind I meant that I didn't feel personally insulted. I could see where other parties might, and I am not going to name anyone. I am just very sorry for any hurt feelings. I was just trying to get some information and didn't mean to cause problems for anyone.
As usual with every post here there is a lot of very good information and I appreciate it very much. If anyone out there has the bravery to add anything else, I'd be glad to read it.
Chris

[fRED mCnEILL]

" On top of that add a service or tech department that most likely has never even seen or even operated (I am assuming here so could be dead wrong) a saw like this. How are they going to help you align that thing when Joe White has only known American style cabinet saws or jointers all his life?"

So you make the above statement when you have no idea if it is correct or not, but the implication is that Grizzly's service department knows nothing about these saws and then you are upset when the owner of the company objects!

"Yah that was a tad hostile how he said it".

It always amazes me how some people are "experts" on products they have never used. Thats not only unfair but its also dishonest.

I have purchased a number of Grizzly tools over the years. My last purchase was a 20 in planer. And while I haven't bought, or used, or even looked closely at the sliders I believe that my overall positive experience with Grizzly is indicative of most people who buy Grizzly products. Grizzly will gladly give you the name of someone in your area who has the tool you are looking at so you can get first hand feedback from somewho who uses the tool.

The fact of the matter is that ,like the Japanese of 50 years ago , I think the Chinese or Tawainese, copy other products. And therefore, the quality of products they produce is dependant on how well they copy the product and how good the manufacturing process is. And, like the evolution of the Japanesa products over the years(cars and cameras are good examples)the Chinese products get better all the time. I own a Makita and a Dewalt codless drill. When it came time to buy a new battery for the Dewalt it was priced (or should I say overpriced) at $85. So I bought a Chinese drill with 2 batteries for $39. Is the difference due to R&D or greed?

Fred. McNeill :)

[Don Baer]

OK I'll put in my $.02 worth. I do woodworking on a limited budget. I got by for years with no Table saw and used my cs for all operations. When my father died I used his table top saw and my capabilities got better. later I got a Jet contractor saw. oh my it's not a cabinate saw so it won't do the perfect job. When I bought a band saw I ended up with a Craftsman (Oh it a piece of junk others said). I have a deWalt CMS and planer, are they top- of the line(nope but they get er done). The list goes on, I'll remind you all out there it's not the tools, it's the craftman. I always buy the best tool I can afford that will get the job done. I guess what I am sayng is it realy depends what you're budget is and what you are willing to accept in the tools. I have a Rikon Mini lathe, I fully expect to get a igger lathe. Rikon is comming out with a bigger lathe. I am saving my money for a PM35,20 or a ig Oneway but I'll certainly look at the Rikon before I puck my good money down.
I can see the value in a Euro slider and there are a few great one out there but I would certainly take a hard look at the Grizzly before spending my $$$ on something that would cost me 3 times as much.

OK end of my tirade.

[Chris McDowell]

Come on guys, all I wanted was some information from people who used grizzly and had dealings with them. A lot of the comments were great and some of the bantering back and forth is understandable. But some comments should not be made.
Do some of these comments, and it doesn't matter right or wrong, sound like things you would like your children to see? Remember there may be younger people reading this. I remember reading in some of the forum rules how some behavior, like vulgar language would not be tolerated. I said before and I will say it again. I am pretty thick skinned but vulgarity and plain rudeness out in the open are sledge hammers that get me upset.
I thought this place was different and had no idea a simple question about a manufacturers' product would cause so much trouble. Sorry I posted, sorry I asked,and right now frankly I am sorry for myself. Really thought this place was different than most other forums. Guess not. Don't worry about me causing any more trouble here. There are plenty of other places online where people are vulgar and rude.
P.S. For all those who tried to give information and share experiences, thank you very much. I appreciate it more than words can say.
Sincerely,
Chris McDowell

[Boyd Gathwright]

.... Well put Alan, well put, you said it all.

Thanks :).

Boyd



I've seen this whole situation play out before on other forums. Keeping in mind that the VAST majority of those reading these threads never post in them, I'd like to give my explanation as a bystander.

Some people do not like Grizzly. They all have their reasons, but 99% of them have never been in the same room with a Grizzly tool. They offer "expert" advise about why the tool they have never laid eyes on is so inferior to the "quality" brand they recommend (and own).

But they are the predictable group. The far more irritating group, are the posters who try to hide their dislike of Grizzly (and their reasons are the same as the first group). They make comments like "I don't care one way or another but Shiraz shouldn't talk to someone like that. I will never do business with them... yadda yadda.) Let's all get this straight: THEY WERE NEVER GOING TO GIVE HIM THEIR MONEY ANYWAYS. They wait for opportunities to pile on to the Grizzly bashing so they can play the holier than thou role.

I have never heard a constructive piece of advise come from either one of these group as it actually pertains to the TOOLS, yet... they are the ones doing the majority of the posting in these ridiculous threads. SO why shouldn't Shiraz stand up to this behavior??? HIS behavior is at fault??? I don't think so. His behavior is commendable and far more honorable than the other types.

I will have no problem giving my money to a man who cares enough and has enough faith in his tools to STAND UP to the people who recklessly slander him and his tools with feigned "knowledge".

Alan

[lou sansone]

good morning wws
Interesting thread. Let's keep the conversation edifying.

Ok back to chris' original question

Does any one here own a grizzly slider ? If so I would be very interested in your impression of the machine and what other sliders you have used and how they complare to grizzly's machine. I think that is all that chris was looking for.

lou

[Mike Cutler]

Come on guys, all I wanted was some information from people who used grizzly and had dealings with them. A lot of the comments were great and some of the bantering back and forth is understandable. But some comments should not be made.
Do some of these comments, and it doesn't matter right or wrong, sound like things you would like your children to see? Remember there may be younger people reading this. I remember reading in some of the forum rules how some behavior, like vulgar language would not be tolerated. I said before and I will say it again. I am pretty thick skinned but vulgarity and plain rudeness out in the open are sledge hammers that get me upset.
I thought this place was different and had no idea a simple question about a manufacturers' product would cause so much trouble. Sorry I posted, sorry I asked,and right now frankly I am sorry for myself. Really thought this place was different than most other forums. Guess not. Don't worry about me causing any more trouble here. There are plenty of other places online where people are vulgar and rude.
P.S. For all those who tried to give information and share experiences, thank you very much. I appreciate it more than words can say.
Sincerely,
Chris McDowell

Chris.

Don't be bummed out at the way the thread played out. Some topics have to run their course. There will always be strong proponents, and opponents of any topic. You can't stop the process. Watch what happens in a discussion on guided circular saw systems. Festool, vs EZ, whoa!!! and both are just a simple aluminium extrusion at their core.
The only thing that I would add has less to do with the saw, or Grizzly, but has to do with the manufacturing of any machine.

All machines are built to a material spec. The ability to conform to the spec, and hold the tolerances within the quality attributes is the measure of the machine. The Europeans, nor the Chinese, nor the Americans have any sole proprietorship of this process. As Tod stated. "Steel is Steel". No manufacturer of woodworking machines has the market strength to spec out some new exotic steel. they are using steel that is available. Steel whose physical and dimensional characteristics are already a known on the world market. The same is true of the bearings. These are spec'd bearings. they have international stampings and numbers that conform to a code and spec. They can be replaced easily, expensive yes, but not impossible to replace or upgrade.

There is a term being bandied about that is not the most correct application. "Accuracy". Acucuracy is the ability to measure to a known traceable value. If I set a fence to 6", is it 6.00000" from the blade, or is it 5.996432 from the blade. This is accuracy. The ablity to reposition a blade to either of these values on a repetetive basis is "repeatability". Shiraz. The example of the nickel in your post is actually an example of lack of mechanical hysterisis in the fence mechanism, and the repeatability of the measuring device. Not trying to throw stones here, just defining an attribute for the sake of this discussion. If the hysterisis properties of your machine are that good, it's very impressive by the way, especially for a woodworking machine.

I'm not quite certain why there is discussion about lack of R&D on Grizzly's part should be a reflection of the overall quality of the machine. Why absorb the R&D costs if you don't have too? If the Martin, Altendorf, or any other quality European slider has had their patents bought out, or expired, on machines they no longer manufacture or support, and Grizzly can have the machines manufactured to the original spec in China or Taiwan, or wherever they're made. You have the same machine. It's just a different color, maybe an older model, per se. I'm not quite sure that I agree with the assumption that the European companies are continually refining their machines for altruistic reasons, and not to increase market share, or promote upgrade in the product line.

I work in field where steel is cut is with ultra high pressure jets, and frequencies. the accuracy of these machines are measured as a function of the computer processor speed to keep up with the math algorithims involved. The measured value is digital word equivalent. in otherwords, devide an inch into 64,000 seperate discreet points, and that is where I start. These are the accuracies,and tolerances. The computer usually rounds up to the nearest 10 or 100 thousandth for display.

Chris.
I have never seen, nor used a Grizzly product. I have nothing against Grizzly, or any other machine manufacturer( I actually find woodworking machines to be a little crude, but fun right ;)). I would advise to try to a arrange a trip to one of the Grizzly showroom, and look for yourself. Let them sell you on their product, reputation, and service. In the machine world $8k is not that much. A digitally indexed rotary table for a Bridgeport is more than that. In the real world that's a lot of $$$. Make them, or any manufacturer earn it.

My .02 fwiw.

PS. Another .02 fwiw. In the time that this board has been in existence 2 representative from the Grizzly organization, Shiraz Baliola, and Bill Crofutt, have taken the time to answer, and respond to questions on product development and implementation. Quality programs, material selection and manufacturing processes, and generally to shoot the breeze. They have both taken a fair degree of negative and positive feedback about their product line.

When I see folks respond to this board, and their signature line includes the name of a woodworking product supply company, ie Charles McCracken of Freud, or the two gentlemen above. This indicates that these companies are interested in consumer feedback on their products. I like this personally. It shows commitment.

[John Renzetti]

Hi Chris, At the IWF in Atlanta in August I had a chance to stop by the Grizzly booth (I'm looking into buying their portable spray booth). I was able to take a good look at their large slider. It looked fine. Slider was smooth. Fit and finish overall was good. Nice movement of the rip fence. That I noticed. I did not have the time to look into the machine and see how it was built so I cannot make any judgement there. But I had an overall good impression of the saw. For a one man shop operator like yourself this Grizzly slider should be placed into the mix. Now I will say that I didn't get the same feeling from the smaller sliders they had. Nothing really negative. They just didn't have the same intangible look or feel as the big slider they had.
I found the sales rep to be very nice and knowledgeable. We talked mostly about the portable spray booth.
The only negative feelings I had was that the style, and a few components the slider had were just too much of an exact copy of some of the other European made sliders there. This has nothing to do with Grizzly nor the quality of the slider. This is probably what set off some of the comments in the thread. Grizzly has come a long way since the early days. There's a lot of real satisfied customers out there. It's not just marketing. Shiraz has built a good customer service organization and the basic machine quality is there. I'd bet that his initial target market are the scores of satisfied small cabinet shops that already have his machines and are now looking to upgrade to a slider at a good price.
Sliding table saws have been made in China and Taiwan for at least 10 yrs or more. Altendorf brought in the first one, the T-92 around 6 yrs ago. This saw was supposed to be made only for the far east market, but Altendorf introduced it to the USA. It didn't do so well. It was relatively expensive at $15,000 later reduced to $10k. This saw was quietly dropped and now replaced by the WA8 which is either made in Brazil or China or both.
Butferring, a German manufacturer of high end wide belts transferred the manufacture of their basic line (start at about $15k) to China. A friend upgraded his German made 37" Butferring to the Chinese made 43" model. He said the fit and finish was still outstanding. A lot of the electricals were still made in Germany.
take care,
John

[tod evans]

mr. henderson,
may i offer a little insight about this particular "popinjay"?
i`ve been cutting wood for a living for close to 30 years, i`ve used most brands of tools on the market from black-n-deckers homeowner line to 6 head moulders. i started building furniture and store fixtures with a rockwell contractors saw and some handtools, to date i have pieces sitting in boardrooms in 8 states and private offices in as many.
i try very hard to keep myself abreast of all tools related to both the wood and metalworking industries and in the last 12 months i`ve spent at least 6 hours browsing the grizzly showroom.
one of my very good friends owns the areas service center for most major brands of powerd hand tools and i`m on a first name basis with all of the techs who repair the tools we all love to abuse. during my years breaking tools and using them for purposes they weren`t designed for i believe i might have learned just a little of what it takes for both a tool and a tool manufacturer to survive in a production enviornment....
when i come to this forum and offer my opinion or advice i do so in an attempt to help others who have less miles on them.
please try to understand mr. henderson, that the words and opinions i type are penned by a person educated in the school of hard knocks, tempered by years of hard work in the trade.....
i`m so glad that you feel you`re at the stage in life where you`re qualified to quantify my opinions as so much hooie....
.02 tod

[Joe Blankshain]

This has gone on long enough. It is your money to invest in the hobby/business/tools/gizmos/gadgets as you see fit. This thread has turned into a "school playground and the kids are picking sides for the rumble". I happen to like BMW's and Mercedes and own one of each, I also own a Ford truck. So what, the quality is in all three for the issues I was looking to satisfy. Buy what suits your needs and pocketbook, however, do look to those that will give you an opinion (biased or not) and make a decision on your own that you can live with. Also, for the record, I have met and spent time at the IWF show with Tod and find him extremely knowledgable and quite personable. Any attempt to impune his knowledge or commitment to helping others is a fools quest. I also had the opportunity to meet Shiraz and he has built a nice company building equipment to fit a marketplace, good for him. Have a great day.

[Jay Brewer]

Hey Chris, back on subject, I doubt your going to get much input from someone that ownes one of these saws. Format saws are specialized equipment not found in every workshop. Get a owner reference from Grizzly and go see for yourself. I would not buy anything with that kind of price tag sight unseen. Also go see the Mini Max and Felder, If one saw was right for everyone, there woulding be so many manufacturers. Everyone here means well, we are passionate about woodworking and our tools. I always read Pauls and Tods post with great respect. Just my opinion

[Joe Blankshain]

Just as an additional point. I have Grizzley green in my shop and the tools that I have function extremely well. That said I just placed am order with MM for a slider and a couple of other tools that caught my attention at IWF.

[Art Davis]

Okay, Guys:

As a rank beginner (pretty rank, too), I have a Griz drill press and 14" bandsaw, but a delta contractor's table saw. I have been thinking of going the whole distance and getting a slider because, frankly, I don't really like the safety features of my TS. So I was really interested to hear about Grizzly's new slider. (And I'll insert my appreciation to Charlie Plessums for calling me and sharing his experience with his slider---on his own nickel!)

That said, I would like to add my two cents about the "debate" currently going on. You folks (on both sides) are clearly committed to WW'ing, so if a few straight from the shoulder comments are put into the stew pot, it doesn't seem way out of line to me. Committment implies strong feelings.

Bottom line: Based upon my past experience with the egotistical, self-satisfied attitude of most folks in management, I am glad to see one of them with his sleeves rolled up, in here swatting it out! I'm sure both he and we are learning in the process.

Now back to the popcorn popper----.

Art

[Jody Malinich]

Chris,

Ever since I starting woodworking as a hobby 20 something years ago, I found that you will recieve opinions, both positive and negative on just about any brand of tool out there. Take them, weight the value of the information provided, but don't use only that info as your deciding factor because they are just that, one persons opinion. Do what you feel is right, if you are close to someone that has said tool, see if you can test run it. I think the store up in PA has a few machines set up for customers to try out. I have a shop full of tools, not all one manufacturer, some were bought because of need, money restraints, space availability and yet alot of them had some sort of comparision shopping done before the purchases were made. I've seen alot of woodworkers turn out some really nice stuff with what some believe are the worst tools on the planet, then I've also seen woodworkers that have all the top of line equipment money can buy and can't produce a project that would sell at a flea market. Purchase what YOU decide to purchase.

[Curt Harms]

If I were contemplating the purchase of a multi thousand $ machine, I'd certainly want to lay eyes and hands on it. Grizzly has 3 stores around the country and have owners who will let prospective purchasers look at and possibly use the machine in question.

Some people require a BMW/Mercedes/Lexus for transportation. More power to them, they have the requirement and means. A Ford pick up truck works just fine for me.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Grizzly wants to make me a screaming deal on a G0460, I'll let prospective purchasers look at it and play with it:D

Curt

[lou sansone]

good morning wws
Interesting thread. Let's keep the conversation edifying.

Ok back to chris' original question

Does any one here own a grizzly slider ? If so I would be very interested in your impression of the machine and what other sliders you have used and how they complare to grizzly's machine. I think that is all that chris was looking for.

lou


So .... Does anyone here own a grizzly slider, and if so how do you like it. From what I can see in their catalogue and in their on line manuals, there are some nice features to the saw. I would have to believe that given enough R & D and a skilled work force that one should be able to produce a decent saw with many fine features.

lou

[robert W HENDERSON]

I've seen this whole situation play out before on other forums. Keeping in mind that the VAST majority of those reading these threads never post in them, I'd like to give my explanation as a bystander.

Some people do not like Grizzly. They all have their reasons, but 99% of them have never been in the same room with a Grizzly tool. They offer "expert" advise about why the tool they have never laid eyes on is so inferior to the "quality" brand they recommend (and own).

But they are the predictable group. The far more irritating group, are the posters who try to hide their dislike of Grizzly (and their reasons are the same as the first group). They make comments like "I don't care one way or another but Shiraz shouldn't talk to someone like that. I will never do business with them... yadda yadda.) Let's all get this straight: THEY WERE NEVER GOING TO GIVE HIM THEIR MONEY ANYWAYS. They wait for opportunities to pile on to the Grizzly bashing so they can play the holier than thou role.

I have never heard a constructive piece of advise come from either one of these group as it actually pertains to the TOOLS, yet... they are the ones doing the majority of the posting in these ridiculous threads. SO why shouldn't Shiraz stand up to this behavior??? HIS behavior is at fault??? I don't think so. His behavior is commendable and far more honorable than the other types.

I will have no problem giving my money to a man who cares enough and has enough faith in his tools to STAND UP to the people who recklessly slander him and his tools with feigned "knowledge".

Alan

This guy hit the nail right on the head.....BRAVO

[Ken Salisbury]

I am glad to see my fellow moderator Jim Becker got to this this thread early this morning (5:07am) and did considerable editng.

I probably would have done considerably more since I was actually appauled at some of the comments, responses, both personal and professional attacks, and general bad conduct by some members. However I decided not to. Rather I decided to leave the content stand as is so other members can read and hopefully reflect on what I have said several times in the past. "put your brain in gear before you push the clutch on your keyboard".

If a member feels they were wronged by another poster's comment/s they should respond to that by Private Messaging, not use another poster's thread as a public forum for their displeasures. That only takes away from helping our fellow members get answers to their inquires even to the point of allienating a new member, as in this case:

I thought this place was different and had no idea a simple question about a manufacturers' product would cause so much trouble. Sorry I posted, sorry I asked,and right now frankly I am sorry for myself. Really thought this place was different than most other forums. Guess not. Don't worry about me causing any more trouble here. There are plenty of other places online where people are vulgar and rude.

Chris McDowell

Lets all try to stay on the subject at hand and if a thread triggers a thought in your mind which strays from the thread subject - simply start a new thread with that thought.


"Your Friendly Moderator"

[Jim Becker]

It was actually after 10am "local" time where I am when I was, umm...pondering this thread. And like Ken, I was troubled by the direction things took. Please folks...this is a community. Act and speak to others the way you would like to be acted and spoken to. And re-read the etiquette sticky at the top of the forum. Please.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Keith Outten]

Chris's original question;

Someone mentioned that I should look into the Grizzly brand of sliding table saws. Said they were very robust and of good quality. Does anybody out there know anything about these saws?
I just ordered the new magazine and am starting to look it over. I hear good comments about Grizzly and then I hear awful comments about them. I would like to know if anyone has had any experience with the company. My parents are going to go on vacation near the Springfield showroom before long and I was thinking about having them stop in and looking for me.
I was also told the President of Grizzly himself frequents this forum, and if that is so sir I would be very interested in hearing from you about your product. Perhaps if everyone sees me asking you for information they won't think you are trying to push your product.
As always all information will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Chris

----------------------------------------------------
Here is my warning;

This thread has more off topic replys than those pertinent to the threads subject and I have removed a few, especially the popcorn comments. I will be asking our Moderators to start deleting any post that is not on topic. For the record if you don't own or have never used a Grizzly slider you should be silent, read and learn. The original poster asked for comments about Grizzly's slider...not a comparison of different manufacturers.

Members of SMC who continue to harrass other Members and Moderators will soon find themselves reduced to Guest status. This includes those who cannot grasp the concept of staying on-topic in a thread. I am totally out of patience with continued violations of our Terms of Service and would like to remind each of you that you agreed to comply with our TOS when you joined SMC. The loss of any troublemaker in a public forum resembles pulling your hand out of a bucket of water, the hole you leave behind won't be noticed.

There will be no further warnings. Grow Up.

.

[Ken Salisbury]

I will be asking our Moderators to start deleting any post that is not on topic.
There will be no further warnings. Grow Up.


Message received loud and clear - Thank's Boss!

[Dennis Peacock]

Clearly understood.....

[Chris McDowell]

Thanks guys for all your comments. I was pretty bummed last night I will be the first to admit. I just want information not looking to start a war. Thought you might be interested to know that the president of Grizzly is on vacation. Not only did he take the time to read my questions to him he responded while on vacation. I don't know if I will buy his product or not, but I can tell you this. He will get the same chance like everyone else does no matter what the name.
I know it's not a lot of money to some people but it is to me. And whoever said they should earn it was dead on. It's my money. If a manufacturer wants it let them show me that . I don't care what the name is on the equipment. I want the quality.
Whether you like Grizzly or not, I think it's pretty impressive for the president of any company to respond on a forum like this. And to top it off answer somebody's messages while on vacation. I doubt many would do that. If the products and people in the Grizzly organization are anything like their owner. My shop may be changing color.
Thanks to those who encouraged me not to leave. The actions of the moderators and the administrator have shown me this is a special place. Not perfect, but who is. Thanks to all.
Chris

[glenn bradley]

Breath everybody . . . . breath.