The "organic" era and what is really organic?

[Carlos Chiossone]

Hi all, I hope this is the right place to ask. I have been making some toys from natural woods. Now that her co is growing I need to produce more but I can't get a straight answer from any lumber place, could you please help.

I need to use "organic" wood, meaning, it has never been exposed to pesticide, chemical fertilizers, or treated with any chemicals for processing. Of course I can go on and on. Has anyone encounter this issue? While I know that most likely forests are not fertilized they may have pesticides. Or are any or all woods treated with something from when they get cut until they get to our hands?

Why "organic"? because the trend is growing, kids with allergies can use some toys that have no chemicals, unless they are allergic to the wood itself. And because that makes my wife happy :) .

I am actually contacting companies that can test the wood, but would love to know how I can get my hands on wood that is fully organic.

Most of my woodwork is done with reclaimed woods which I am sure is not very organic as it was previously used and this makes it eco enough for us, but to make production I need to find a source of natural woods.

Hey perhaps I am wrong, and most wood has actually never seen a chemical, I really hope so.

Thanks to all,
Carlos Chiossone

[Rob Diz]

As I understand it, to have something that is certified organic means that it meets the accrediting board's definition of what is organic. I think you will have issues locating trees that are certified as having been grown organic - as it would seemingly require that the lumber would come from trees which have had their growth from sapling monitored to confirm not herbicides/pesticides were used nearby. That would take a LONG time.

I think the best you will be able to do is to locate your own sawyer who knows where the trees are coming from, and then try to use only trees from forests away from sources of herbicides/pesticides. By way of example, my family has had some rural land for a long time. We harvested some lumber a few years ago, which was the first time lumber had ever been harvested off of that land in at least the last 50 years. Organic, who knows, but certainly would fit your requirements.

Just my .02 FWIW

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

your question usually goes unanswered. There have been some attempts to quantify what "organic" means.

Most folks don't think about it too much. If there is a "no pesticide" claim that tends to satisfy them. Others insist on no fertilizer. Others yet still think it has to be wild.

I'll bet your wood satisfies all the requirememts.
No pesticides, no fertilizer, grown wild, no human intervention at all.
Woo Hoo.

[Robert Mickley]

Unless it's certified organic by one of the organic associations, technicly you can't call it organic. I doubt your going to find a certified organic tree lot. About the only chemical your going to run into at the sawmill is Anchorseal.

The problemn is even a small sawmill gets their logs from all over. If it's that big of a concern I say find a small mill with kiln dried lumber and don't worry about it.

Getting it tested is going to costly since you don't know where the tree came from or if all the lumber you buy came from the same tree. Which means you would have to ship a sample of each board to be tested.

Your best bet is to contact OCIA (Organic Crop Improvement Association) and ask them. They are probably the oldest association around with chapters wordwide

[Ian Abraham]

You might actually want to study wood allergies more then artifical chemical stuff.

Many woods contain all sorts of chemicals, thats why Cedar smells like it does. These chemicals are produced by the tree to repel bugs and fungus attacks, and some can be fairly toxic, especially if you have an allergic reaction. We have a weed killer here in NZ thats actually made from concentrated chemicals extracted from pine needles. Organic, yes, toxic.. well it sure is to weeds, and I'm not going to start drinking the stuff.

Picking a less toxic wood may make your product more user friendly than worrying about possible chemical exposure in the tree in years gone by.
Otherwise, wood is not generally sprayed with any chemical as part of the sawing drying process, unless it gets pressure treated later, but thats marked as such, and you get charged extra.

Plywood, MDF and other manufactured boards usually contain chemicals, so you have the advantage over them. Other main source would be the finishes, polyurethane and paint will release chemicals over time, so choose the finish with care.

Cheers

Ian

[David Giles]

The fallacy is that "organic" things can't hurt a person. Crude oil is "organic" in that it is untouched by pesticides, herbicides, human hands. But it's not a good idea to drink it. The same is true of some types of wood which can cause severe allergic reactions.

But if you truely want wood untouched by any human contact, start by cutting 1/4" off every surface of every board. This should eliminate any chemicals used during the harvesting and milling process. For the ultimate wood, use only heartwood from 100 year old plus trees (redwoods would be good) because there weren't many chemicals 100 years ago.

[David Wilson]

I've never heard of in-organic wood. Guess I need to catch up.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Unless it's certified organic by one of the organic associations, technicly you can't call it organic.
I don't think this is at all correct. I know that in the UK there are laws that regulate the use of the word "organic" for food stuffs. However, wood may not fall under these regs even in Bloody Old England.

In the US there are certifications you can get from a couple of differen't places but they do not have the force of law.

Which of course means I can buy genetically modified produce, raised in an aquaculture lab, under artificial light, fed with artificial fertilizer, spray it with DDT, then radiate it with Cobalt 60 - and still call it organic.

The only think I'd have to lose would be my reputation.
I do not think there are any laws ( at the federal level) regulating the industry here in the USA.

I'd bet you can label the wood products as "Wild - Organic - raised with care by God Himself" And no one can say boo to you.

[Frank Fusco]

You use the term "natural" wood. I have to ask if there is an 'unnatural' wood?
Lumber purchased from a commercial lumber yard probably has come from a tree farm. These are regularly sprayed to control weeds and pests.
You will need expert input to learn if any of those chemicals actually end up in the wood itself. I tend to think not. Most used today degrade in the soil. (My son's father-in-law is in the spray business, I learn a few interesting things from him).
To avoid those woods you should probably buy only from small mills located in small towns. No guarantees but less likely.
My opinion? The whole concept of "natural" or "organic" wood is a non-issue. Good advertising maybe, but not a real issue.

[Robert Mickley]

I don't think this is at all correct. I know that in the UK there are laws that regulate the use of the word "organic" for food stuffs. However, wood may not fall under these regs even in Bloody Old England.

In the US there are certifications you can get from a couple of differen't places but they do not have the force of law.

Which of course means I can buy genetically modified produce, raised in an aquaculture lab, under artificial light, fed with artificial fertilizer, spray it with DDT, then radiate it with Cobalt 60 - and still call it organic.

The only think I'd have to lose would be my reputation.
I do not think there are any laws ( at the federal level) regulating the industry here in the USA.


In answer to statement one, yes there are federal laws in place
http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/indexNet.htm
Oh though since the USDA has gotten involved they have reduced the requirements. USDA certified organic doens't mean jack

Second,
No the organic associations don't have any "laws" But to get certified my brother had to sign a contract basicly stating he had to follow the bylaws of the OCIA. They have sued for breech of contract and won on guys that have signed the contract then used chemicals. is it a law? NO. But it is a leagaly binding contract and it can darn sure cost you money in court. So its just as effective. In fact it could be more effective

Three
yes you could, But your opening yourself up to a liability case. Some folks are allergic to some chemical residues.

Four
See 1, also some states have strict organic certifications. Indiana is one.

For the most part its an honor thing, some associattions are stricter than others. Your right that there are a lot of things that are technicly organic that you would not want to ingest.

[tod evans]

carlos, instead of reclaimed wood which has been subjected to who knows what i would buy from a local mill and advertise that the wood isn`t chemically treated by them or you. that should be fine for most folks...02 tod

[Lee DeRaud]

If you really want pesticide/fertilizer/chemical-free wood, you go down to South America and defoliate yet another acre of rain forest. Somehow I don't think that's exactly the public image the organic movement is striving for.
My opinion? The whole concept of "natural" or "organic" wood is a non-issue. Good advertising maybe, but not a real issue.Amen to that. What's next, "organic" iron ore to make the steel in our SUVs?

[Carlos Chiossone]

Good points, funny points but all good.

The certifiaction is my own, as someone mention is my reputation more than anything else. It is my concern to my children, their friends and all of those I have never met. Even thou I grew up using all these stuff and seem fine, we'll see tomorrow :-) .

Because of my involvement with my wife's business I have learned that 75% of pesticides in the US are used in cotton fields, I have seen in my hands research about the DNA mutations generated by some of these pesticides when not completely cleaned in the processing of the fabric. Most of us have no idea how much of these goes into our bodies with repeated use. Does it really harm? probably not. But it is possible that someday one chemical may cause harm, hopefully not badly but again we can only hope. "Hope" being the keyword there. Now this trend of "organic" people do not want to hope, they want to be as sure as possible that the chems do not get into their DNA.

Regarding US Law, I am not concerned about it. That is new and being fought in Congress left and right. Real organic concerned people like my family have been doing it for a long time, using Tom's of Maine toothpaste and deodorant instead of XXX brand, etc. The Organic certification by the goverment actually means very little to us, their regulations are bogus and made so companies like Wal-Mart can sell "organic" food and items and maintain their low costs.

But going back to the wood. I have actually spoken to several mills in mid-western states which harvest their own wood, some do use pesticides but the majority seem not to. I also spoke to a lab that test chemical compounds in food and plants, they said that the amount passed to the wood is very small unless is used in huge quantities. And that the chemical for some reason I could not understand goes into the leaf and fruit more than the core of the tree, I can't believe that much.

I just want to find wood that has the least amount of possible harm to kids. Allergies is a whole other entire concern. Finishes, I can't use any other than bees wax, I already tried several so called natural.

Also, yes chemicals produce natural substances (chemicals) to protect and help themselves. Crude is also natural as said but also as said, common sence tell us not to drink it, besides have you ever touched it??? its pure goo. I am from Venezuela, trust me, the only thing you want with the stuff is the money it makes.

Guys, thanks to all, it is amazing all the points of view in this and other subjects. I have learned and hope to keep learning from the insights we all have been able to share.

Thanks all.
Carlos

[Charles McKinley]

Welcome Carlos,

I think you will have better luck going with the sustainable forestry aspect.

http://www.hickmanwoods.com/HLumber/HLEnvironment.html

This is a link to a sawmill that is close to me. In the last 20 years I am willing to bet most of the North East hardwood forest have been sprayed to control Gypsy Moths. The little buggers have done terrible damage to the Oaks here in PA. Now they are controlled by a little German beatle that looks similar to a ladybug but pinches you and invades your home every fall in droves.

Still better than those nasty worms that turn into the moths.

[Howard Acheson]

One of the significant issues in western North Carolina forest is the acid rain. It is damaging many trees in the forest. I would have to believe that there is residual chemicals in the wood produced in these forests.

[Joe Mioux]

You might actually want to study wood allergies more then artifical chemical stuff.

Many woods contain all sorts of chemicals, thats why Cedar smells like it does. These chemicals are produced by the tree to repel bugs and fungus attacks, and some can be fairly toxic, especially if you have an allergic reaction. We have a weed killer here in NZ thats actually made from concentrated chemicals extracted from pine needles. Organic, yes, toxic.. well it sure is to weeds, and I'm not going to start drinking the stuff.


Ian

Ian, you reminded me of something... I use Nicotine in my greenhouses to kill insects. Nicotine is a naturally produced product. The nicotine I use can kill a cat if left inside the sealed the greenhouse within a matter of 4 or 5 hours.

Joe

[Jarrod Nelson]

My wife likes to buy organic food for the kids. I question the value, and it costs a little extra, but I don't argue. My kids are worth it.

Then, the other day, I found my 2 year old in the neighbor's flower garden eating the dirt. He probably has more Miracle Grow in him now then he could have ever accumulated in 100 years of eating non-organic foods.

All that hard work by my wife down the drain. So far the 2 year hold hasn't started glowing or growing extra limbs.

[Richard Blaine]

The nicotine I use can kill a cat if left inside the sealed the greenhouse within a matter of 4 or 5 hours.

Joe

Don't forget about what it can do to you.

[Chris Barton]

Ok, organic, that's easy. Any compound that contains carbon is organic. No carbon and it's inorganic. I seem to remember that from chemistry. Remember, water is inorganic. Is that an undesireable thing?

[Robert Mickley]

Ok, organic, that's easy. Any compound that contains carbon is organic. No carbon and it's inorganic. I seem to remember that from chemistry. Remember, water is inorganic. Is that an undesireable thing?

When it comes to a bath, my dogs think so :)

[Curt Harms]

Welcome Carlos,

..... Now they are controlled by a little German beatle that looks similar to a ladybug but pinches you and invades your home every fall in droves.

Still better than those nasty worms that turn into the moths.

Thanks Charles! I've wondered where those little rascals came from!! Now to find a critter that is as fond of Emerald Ash Borers as I am of Lobstah!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/indexNet.htm
Oh though since the USDA has gotten involved they have reduced the requirements. USDA certified organic doens't mean jack
Thanks for the link, learn something new every day
Apparantly the so called regulations have only one set of teeth: you can't use the USDA seal if your products are non-compliant
"The USDA seal may not be affixed to any ‘100 percent organic’ or ‘organic’ product until 18 months after the final rule’s effective date."
From: >>http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/PolicyStatements/StreamofCommerce.html<<



Second,
is it a law? NO. But it is a leagaly binding contract and it can darn sure cost you money in court. So its just as effective. In fact it could be more effective Well yes if you bother to get certified and use the USDA label and execute the agreement. But what about products that you wouldn't ever put a USDA label on like wood products. This especially as wood workers don't pursue food stuff certification and don't execute agreements.

So long as they aren't using the USDA label, I think they can make any organic claim at all and the only exposure they have is as to harms experienced by the customers.

Of course the same rules apply as they do in any tort litigation: The complainant must show a bona fide harm not merely a dissapointment. Being angry about an imagined misrepresentation entitles on to a refund at best. Remember barring death or other serious injury no one is ever going to spend the money to have a broad spectrum analysis of a wood product.



Three
yes you could, But your opening yourself up to a liability case. Some folks are allergic to some chemical residues. Yes indeed. However. those same liabilities inhere (and to the same degree) whether you label it "Organic" or "WARNING WILL ROBINSON," or no label at all. If you poison your customers you are on thin ice.



Four
See 1, also some states have strict organic certifications. Indiana is one. I wonder whether those are strictly as to food products. People consuming food are the most likely class of cunsumers contemplated by any statutes. I haven't read 'em so I am shooting in the dark.


For the most part its an honor thing, some associattions are stricter than others. Your right that there are a lot of things that are technicly organic that you would not want to ingest.
Yah but all my remarks are entirely as to a wood product not as to food, which is the reason behind my glib tone. We aren't intending to eat the wood rub it on our skin or brush our teeth with it. In fact the only place where I see any issue would be when making food prep and serving items from wood.

surfing the web for Maple Syrup the other day I came across a whole lot of "Organic" Syrup producers.
Now I know a little about maple trees and they take a little more than a few years to become meanginful sap producers. It got me to wondering how much these "organic" producers could possibly know about their ancient maple groves. I am guessing they don't know anything at all about the history of the groves except they bought 'em lock stock and barrel and haven't been spraying them etc., for some period.
How that can qualify as "organic" is beyond me as I have picked up fist sized chunks of arsenic used by older north country potato farmers to kill the beetles. I'd bet the old guys protected their trees in similar ways. Those trees are standing today 60 - 120 years later. And now the same trees are producing "organic" sap???

I'd be willing to bet money that any trees large enough to be worth harvesting are so old that they pre-date any notions about organic farming.

I say If the customer wants a wood product with a label that says "organic" then get a brand and brand the items organic and be done with it.
After all wood is organic.
The plain meaning of the word is inescapable.
Just don't use the USDA label.

[Robert Mickley]

Yah but all my remarks are entirely as to a wood product not as to food, which is the reason behind my glib tone. We aren't intending to eat the wood rub it on our skin or brush our teeth with it. In fact the only place where I see any issue would be when making food prep and serving items from wood.


You should see some of the kidds in this family, I can bbet you they will be tasting it :D :D :D



surfing the web for Maple Syrup the other day I came across a whole lot of "Organic" Syrup producers.
Now I know a little about maple trees and they take a little more than a few years to become meanginful sap producers. It got me to wondering how much these "organic" producers could possibly know about their ancient maple groves. I am guessing they don't know anything at all about the history of the groves except they bought 'em lock stock and barrel and haven't been spraying them etc., for some period.
How that can qualify as "organic" is beyond me as I have picked up fist sized chunks of arsenic used by older north country potato farmers to kill the beetles. I'd bet the old guys protected their trees in similar ways. Those trees are standing today 60 - 120 years later. And now the same trees are producing "organic" sap???

I'd be willing to bet money that any trees large enough to be worth harvesting are so old that they pre-date any notions about organic farming.
Just don't use the USDA label.

Actually organic farming goes back further than chemical farming, problem is we just got away from it.

As for the trees, I couldn't tell you. I know that to take ground from chemical to organic, the first two years you raise it organic and sell on the chemical market, third year is your transition year where you can label it chemical free, fourth year you label it organic. OCIA has done extensive testing that shows foreign chemicals introduced in a farming aspect are gone in this amount of time.

I have no idea how long it would be residual in a tree.
Just to clear up a bit, my brother Does NOT use a USDA organic label. Simply because thier guidelines are so loose compared to OCIA's. People who are die hard organic buyers know this and tend to shy away from USDA certified stuff because of their loose playing of the rules.



Of course the same rules apply as they do in any tort litigation: The complainant must show a bona fide harm not merely a dissapointment. Being angry about an imagined misrepresentation entitles on to a refund at best. Remember barring death or other serious injury no one is ever going to spend the money to have a broad spectrum analysis of a wood product.


Actually I don't think you would have to actually show harm, there is always the false advertisement angle. OF coures I'm not a lawyer so I could be wrong, and I did not stay at a holiday inn express last night :D:D

My origional post


The problemn is even a small sawmill gets their logs from all over. If it's that big of a concern I say find a small mill with kiln dried lumber and don't worry about it.

notice that even though I'm a big sponsor of organic products I told him to find a small mill and don't sweat it

[Carlos Chiossone]

Then, the other day, I found my 2 year old in the neighbor's flower garden eating the dirt. He probably has more Miracle Grow in him now then he could have ever accumulated in 100 years of eating non-organic foods.

All that hard work by my wife down the drain. So far the 2 year hold hasn't started glowing or growing extra limbs.

Jarrod you have given me the best laugh all day. I have been fortunate not to witness that on my kids. But you never know! So now you need to make sure to eat organic and use my toys so you don't go over the threshold set by your kid :)

c