Plane selection help setting up my workshop- LN or LV or combination

[Robert Trotter]

Hi people, I would like some opinions of what hand planes to get.

This is my first post but I have been lurking around reading for while now.

I did have a fairly long post ready to go giving a background view of what work I ussualy do and details about my woodworking views etc etc. to help people give better advice but thought it might be too long.:o So here is a condensed version. (Are long posts frowned upon?)

I am setting up my small:( workshop with some quality tools.
My to buy list is:-

Veritas medium shoulder plane
LN LA adjustable mouth block plane
LN mortice chsel set of 5
LN socket chisel set of 5
Starret combination square (3 piece) from Lee Valley
Titemark III marking gauge from Lie-Nielsen
Veritas Mark II honing guide

LN140 OR LN rabbet block plane (60 1/2R:confused: )
Low angle jack = Veritas or Lie-Nielsen
smoothing plane

I have and use japanese saws and will keep these for now.


What do you think? Sound reasonable? Any suggestions? These will be maxing out my budget.

Help #1

I was wanting something to help trim tennons so was looking at the 140 or the 60 1/2. One of these with the medium shoulder plane should be good I thought. And they would be good for rabbetting too. But which one?:confused:

Is one better suited to a specific type of work? With 60 1/2R you must work from both side into the middle of the tenon cheek, is that right? With the 140 do you just push all the way through because of the scew blade. Are there any problems with either?


Help #2

LA jack plane - which one? :confused:
The LN LA jack or the Veritas LA jack?
I have read that they are very simar in performance. However the Veritas is more of a 5 1/2 and the LN a #5 jack. I also understand the inovations of the Veritas. So I hope this doesn't turn into a veritas is better than a LN or visavera. But in use, are there woodworking situations where a 5 1/2 is better or a #5 is better? Fore example is the Veritas a bit too heavy and wide for smaller work or for chair frames and the like?

Also for the Lie-Nielsen LA jack owners, do you have any real problems with the lack of lateral adjustment, or shorter toe area, or resetting the blade etc.? I think you may have guessed that I haven't used metal planes a lot.:rolleyes:

I will get the Mark II honing guide so will maintaining a square edge be difficult for a beginner user? I am pretty good with my hands and pick up things easily. I have small japanese planes and have until now does all my blades free hand.


Help #3

Smoother. Which one?:confused: (only one:( )
My choices are LN LA smoother, LN #4 bronze, LN#4 1/2, Veritas BU LA smoother. I don't mind mixing brands.

I was thinking of the #4 originally before finding out about the bevel up planes and reading through the differnt forums. That's what me dad and grandad had. But now I don't know what to get.
I was thinking of the smoother for general work on smaller pieces and for smoothing.

Are smoothing planes really just for large surfaces like table tops? Or are they equally usefull for smoothing narrower pieces like rails and styles and chair legs, box construction etc.?

Is the Veritas BU smoother or the #4 1/2 getting too heavy or wide for smaller or narrower work. Or would using the LN block plane be better?

I think that for any shooting, i would use the LA jack. but all the smoothers except the Veritas could also be used.




Some background:-

I suppose I should let you know a bit about the work I might be doing. Getting longer already.:o Sorry

I am a hobbiest, not a professional making my living from woodworking. I love tools, beauty and quality. I think quality tools that look nice and feel nice translate into better quality work and a better experience of woodworking. Hence Lie-Nielsen and Veritas.
I will be doing mostly small to medium sized project in a mix of softwoods and hardwoods and ply. Chairs, side tables, boxes and the like, some desks and beds for the kids. Some outdoor furniture. I will be doing alot of mortice and tennon joinery. I doubt if I would be making any large dining tables. the largest surface I would do is probaly my work bench and that will be a one off thing.

I will be going the neander way. All hand. I don't have a table saw or jointer and will not be getting them.

:rolleyes: Umm... That's about it.

[Gary Herrmann]

Hi Robert. I don't think you can go wrong with either LN or LV. I myself have the LV LA planes that can use the same irons - jointer, jack and smoother. I've been very pleased with their performance. They also feel good in my hands.

I'd recommend you go to a Woodcraft or other store near you that may carry them to see how they feel. Both companies make high quality tools.

The LNs are beautiful tools. I like some of the innovations that LV has put into their low angle planes. Given my budget, I also like their prices.

I do envy you the chisels on your list. When I finally upgrade from Marples, I hope to do the same.

[Mark Sweigart]

Set of Mortise chisels? Why? From my understanding, most people only end up using 1 or 2 sizes. This might be a bit excessive.

Also, you said you are going to do everything by hand. Does this include dimensioning lumber, or are you just going to buy S4S? If you are dimensioning lumber it is usually done with 3 planes (sometimes 4): jack, jointer, and smoother.

mark

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Robert,

New or vintage for the tools. Vintage will stretch the dollar considerably. Also, since you list chairs, don't forget about a spokeshave or two. Perhaps a large gouge for shaping seats along with a good shopmade mallet. Chair devils are handy scrapers for sizing and smoothing round chair legs and other parts. LV just started carrying them, but this is a tool you can also make.

As well, braces and a variety of bits, and hand drills are necessary for more than just the chairs. Spoon bits are very useful for chair making, but even auger bits work well.

I'll let the others make plane recommendations, but thought I would mention the chair tools.

Take care, Mike

[Chris Padilla]

Robert,

Along with the nice choices in planes/handtools you are considering, look into sharpening systems as well. If you've been lurking alot, there are many ways to skin that cat but don't frett too much, their end result is the same...just pick a method you think you might like and go for it.

One recommendation I'll make:

Instead of a dedicated shoulder plane, look at the Vertias Bullnose plane that combines a chisel plane and a bullnose plane into one. At the start, it will serve you well as a decent shoulder plane for trimming/cleaning up tenons/rabbets or a chisel plane for cleaning up corner rabbets. However, it won't clean up dados/grooves very well unless you have 1" wide dadoes or grooves!

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49709&cat=1,41182,48945

[tod evans]

robert, since you didn`t mention price and did mention a love of beauty and quality you owe it to yourself to look here;
http://www.marcouplanes.com/planes/index.asp

and welcome to smc where we`ll help you spend more money than you ever thought you could on tools;) ....tod

[Robert Trotter]

Set of Mortise chisels? Why? From my understanding, most people only end up using 1 or 2 sizes. This might be a bit excessive.

Also, you said you are going to do everything by hand. Does this include dimensioning lumber, or are you just going to buy S4S? If you are dimensioning lumber it is usually done with 3 planes (sometimes 4): jack, jointer, and smoother.

mark

Thanks for all the ideas everyone. You already have me thinking.

Ok I suppose I may have been better off posting the full version as intended.:rolleyes:

I got a small bonus which the "boss" has allowed me to spend on some tools. So not botomless pockets.:( The Marcous look great and I read the review about the smoother. But alas my budget doesn't run that far. The tools list I gave has just about maxed my budget. So a bit of changing around could be done to get the best setup.

I understand the benefits of buying older planes and fettling them. Can be cheap for you guys, and I could learn a lot about planes etc. But I live in Japan and trying to find a reputable seller and then shipping them over and buying all the stuff needed to bring them up to speck it will probably cost me a tidy some for an old plane. So am looking at new.

I will be dimensioning lumber by hand. With my above selection of tools I can aford 2 planes so I thought of smoother and a LA jack. I was thinking the jack can be used as a jointer since I won't be doing a lot of really long work. And although it has taken me more time and effort, I have gotten by with shorter planes so far. But i do understand the benefits of having a number of different sized plane. Maybe some time in the future if needed, I can look at a jointer later.

I hope this might help you to help me.:)

[Andrew Homan]

I will be dimensioning lumber by hand. With my above selection of tools I can aford 2 planes so I thought of smoother and a LA jack. I was thinking the jack can be used as a jointer since I won't be doing a lot of really long work. And although it has taken me more time and effort, I have gotten by with shorter planes so far.


Hi,
I'll preface this by saying that I'm a beginner. I've set up my shop with a combination of new and old tools; usually I acquire only the tools that I need for whatever project I'm embarking on.
I have to say that I'm a bit surprised, since you will be dimensioning boards by hand, that you're choosing such extensive sets of chisels but no jointer plane. Over the last 6 months, I've done quite a bit of dimensioning boards by hand and I really don't know what I'd do without the jointer. I'll add that I consider dimensioning to be almost a meditative practice, it is very relaxing, but if someone told me in a dream that I was going to have to do it (on boards longer than 20") with a jack plane as the longest plane, I think that I'd wake up in a cold sweat!

Also, I just want to confirm that you already have good saws? I overlooked how important it is to have good saws and am only now really making the discovery of the joy of Western saws (a friend gave me a lesson that unlocked some mysteries).

I'd also love to own all those LN chisels, but those two sets cost around $550, whereas you could get a well tuned #7 from a dealer for under $100 and add a LN blade and chipbreaker; buy some very good but less expensive chisels, such as Ashley Iles or 2 Cherries. And I also imagine that you could get some very nice chisels in Japan. For the jointer, you really do not need to go LN (although they are beautiful jointers). I have a very old Stanley #7 (from a dealer) that I dropped a LN blade and chipbreaker into, and I've compared the performance to a friend's LN #7. I'm getting similar performance except that the LN jointer can be set so fine, it is almost like a massive smoother. I use the #7 for flattening boards and jointing edges, which I then smooth with a LN #4, so I don't need the #7 to be a smoother! (and neither does anyone, really, since you'll want to use a #4 or 4.5 afterwards anyhow!).

Another possibility is to get all those chisels (for cleaning up tenons) and forget about the 140 or 60.5R. This should also free up funds for a jointer.

As a beginner who also had to limit choices for startup tools, I felt compelled to write this, because you can always gradually acquire chisels as needed (for exactly the same cost), whereas you cannot "gradually" buy a jointer!

-Andy

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks people. And thanks Andrew for your experiences. I was hoping that experiences like your would help me and others like me who have read a lot but still unsure.

I live in Japan and have some cheaper Japanese chisels etc. But I really need to upgrade and there are so many makers around I don't know which are quality and which are not. Also they are quite expensive. And there is no try and return poilcy generally I think. Of course there are cheaper ones but I have some of them already. Just a new blade for my plane can set me back more than a whole new LN shipped to Japan. Thus my asking.:)
I don't see how you can buy good Japanese planes and blades in the US cheaper than here.:eek: If anyones knows a chisel maker I can get mortice chisels from in Japan let me know.

I could drop the LN chisels I suppose and just get one or two more expensive one here as I need them. And put the money to something else.:confused:

I have Japanese dozuki with very fine teeth, great for super fine cuts and the equivalent of a panel saw I suppose. I would love an Adria saw or LN but lower priority at the moment. New planes and chisels first, I think.

[Andrew Homan]

I could drop the LN chisels I suppose and just get one or two more expensive one here as I need them. And put the money to something else.

Hi Robert,
The LN mortise chisels are very nice. I have one, a 1/4", and it is a pleasure to use. I'll probably want a 3/8" or 1/2" soon for some upcoming projects (but I'm also looking at old chisels at sales here). So I certainly don't want to discourage you from getting those lovely LN chisels! I just think that since dimensioning boards is 100% in your future, the #7 (or #8) is probably a priority, whereas an assortment of 5 mortise chisels is not necessarily needed immediately. And you could probably pick out 2 of the beveled chisels as needed.
What kinds of pieces are you going to build, specifically?
Don't forget marking/measuring tools. In addition to the combination square, I find that I frequently need a small (4") square (mine is an inexpensive metal one) and a larger try square.
Good luck!
Andy

[Martin Shupe]

I have the LN socket chisels. They are wonderful to use, and the edges last a long time. I have one LN mortise chisel, because it is all I need right now. Mostly I cut mortises with a router.

I have mostly LN planes. I say mostly, because I just got a LV low angle block. The only reason I got it is because of the nifty attachment for doing edges at 45 degrees. I have not used it yet, still need to sharpen it.

I have the LN 62, with an extra toothed blade. It is a fabulous plane.

The beauty of LN's, and reputation for quality, make them the top choice for my small but growing collection. If you can afford it, I believe the LN's are worth the extra bucks. Look at ebay. Used LN's always sell for almost retail. I'll admit to the one LV plane, but it will probably be the only one in my collection of users. For the majority, I am a LN fan.

[Chris Padilla]

Robert,

Being in Japan (where abouts?), you might have the opportunity to hook with our very own Stu Ablett (in Tokyo Japan). Look him up and drop him a line...he is semi-famous around the woodworking community!

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Andrew, You have me thinking that maybe I may not go for the chisel sets but just get a couple that I need right now. I was going for sets as I haven't been doing work of a consistant size. Always a lot of variety. So often have a need for different sized chisels. But have just had to work a lot harder and carefully with my 6mm (1/4") and 19mm (??). I have just made a modern styled arm chair with 40mm (about 1 3/4"?) square, legs with tapers on two side and mortice and tenonned all the frame up (about 16mm to 18mm thickness). I want to make a display table (narrow,open frame with fine rather narrow frame members) for the front entrance hall. Also some beds and desks for the kids. The eldest is just starting school. And some beds for the kids. Also I was hoping to try a few boxes and draws with dovetailed joinery (for the tools and my workshop. But my next projects will be some "Selengan batu" or "Ipe" harwood planter boxes and a bench for the balcony. And my shed/workshop. waiting on estimates for the concrete foundation.

I was thinking about the 4" sliding square from Lee Valley. About $35 ?? But all these little things keep adding up to a big price. :eek:

People - is there a reason for going LN LA over the #4 or #4 1/2 or other way round? I will be working with both hard and softwoods.

[Robert Trotter]

Soryy just an adition it helps. I will be making the doors for my shed. 3 in total. Probably from serangan batu.

[Ken Bryant]

If you're going to dimension lumber by hand, you really really need a jointer. My own personal favorite is the LN #8. If I could only have two planes, I'd probably take the jointer and a 4 1/2 smoother. Three and I'd add the smallest LN block plane. Four and I'd add a shoulder plane. Five and I'd add a low-angle jack.

[Andrew Homan]

People - is there a reason for going LN LA over the #4 or #4 1/2 or other way round? I will be working with both hard and softwoods.

I can't speak to the low-angle smoother, but I have felt very good about working with the LN low-angle jack in combination with the LN #4. For difficult wood (like the ash I'm working with right now, where there are some knots and grain-direction reversals), the low-angle jack leaves an _almost_ smoothed surface --- it's given me the flexibility to use a higher-angle blade (I have one 25 degree blade and one blade with a 38-degree secondary bevel.) The #4 can be adjusted to have such a narrow throat that I can't even believe the shaving fit through it!

When I dimension boards my order of planes:
1. scrub plane (LN or Ulmia)
2. old Stanley #5 to take down the waves left by the scrub (this could also be done with low-angle jack)
3. LN low-angle jack to continue flattening across the grain, especially if there is a lot of tear-out.
4. old-Stanley #7 down the length of the grain.
5. low-angle jack along the first edge to get rid of the rough surface.
6. #7 down the length of the edge to take down the high spots and square the edge.

I know that this could be done without the scrub, but I love using it. And I see how the LA jack could continue to be used instead of the #7, it would just require a LOT more concentration and observation.

I've been in-and-out of the pond over the last couple of months thinking about whether the LN low-angle jointer would be useful for me. The only complaint I have about my old #7 is that the lateral adjustment seems to get thrown off sometimes when I plane into a tough spot. (this would not happen with a LN #7 or 8).

I think that you can't go wrong with any of the planes that you are thinking about getting.

-A.

[Roger Nixon]

I agree with Andrew. You will work yourself to death trying to dimension stock with a smoother and a jack set up as a jointer. The goal is always to do as much as possible with as coarse a tool as possible and just finish with a finely set tool.
Get one mortise chisel, a 5/16". It will work great on stock from 5/8" to 5/4". Bigger stuff you can drill and pare. It doesn't sound like you will need anything else. With the money you save you can get another plane.
While shoulder planes are nice, they aren't neccesary and you will need a plow plane and a router plane more (how were you going to make grooves and dados?).

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks everyone for the advice.
It is helping me, although making me have to think a lot:eek: and I hope it will others in the same boat.

So it looks like I might try to fit in a jointer and maybe knock off a few chisels. A LN #7 looks the beez neez but at $400 it is probably on the steep side when considering the stuff I want/need. Ideas...:confused:

Grooves and dados - I was looking at the Veritas router plane. And I am not sure about plough planes. That is, what are good brands or models etc. I had a look at the stanley web site and there seems to be heap of models. And then from what I have read, new Stanleys are not the best anyway.

I was thinking of doing the grooves and dados (until I got something better) by saw and chisel as I have done till now. :o Lots of work and that's one of the reasons for good quality chisels.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Robert, if you are doing grooves and dados with saw and chisel then you will appreciate a router plane. For dados and grooves, I have used a good knife to score fibers and then gone straight to a router plane before.

Of course, sawing to near depth and knocking waste out with a chisel is fairly quick, but the router plane can make short work of finishing off nice and evenly.

Take care, Mike

[Andrew Homan]

Hi Mike,
Do you have recommendations about router planes, i.e. which one would be the best all-around? I see three different types: the full size and small size Stanleys as well as the wooden type (including homemade ones).
-Andy

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Andrew,

I had up until recently a Millers Falls version of the Stanley #71 and used it quite a bit for finalizing the depth of lap joints [mostly] and tenons. Now I pare mortises rather than change a tenon under most circumstances.

I will be purchasing the LV router plane to replace the MF version in the future. I prefer metal ones to wood ones purely from an aesthetic point of view.

I also have and use a vintage #271. I've used it for small inlays and thin grooves on jewelry boxes. A fairly recent purchase of an 043 has proved a good purchase for small grooves. So the #271 will live for only depthing for inlays most likely.

Take care, Mike

[tod evans]

robert, if you`re not dead set on new i`ve found patrick leach to be an upstanding used tool dealer....02 tod

[Hank Knight]

Hi Robert,

You've gotten some good suggestions. I'll add my $.02 and try to answer a couple of your questions.

I own both a LN LA smoother and a LN LA jack. I don't use the smoother much except for occasional shooting and end grain work. I don't know why, but I seem to always reach for a #3 or a #4 rather than the LA smoother. Old habits die hard.

I like the LA jack and I use it fairly often. I've never had a problem with the absence of a lateral adjust and I've never run into a situation where I thought an extra inch in toe length would have made any difference. I don't use it as a jointer or a fore plane; maybe the extra toe length would help there. I'm not sure what you mean by "resetting the blade." The LN LA jack has a very positive depth adjuster that doesn't slip. Once set, I never have to reset it unless I'm reconfiguring the blade depth or removing the blade for honing. The LN LA jack is a very good shooting plane, although some say that the heavier Lee Valley LA jack is a better shooter. I've never used a LV plane, so I can't compare the two. From all accounts the LVs are nice tools. I dont think you would go wrong with either. To me it's a matter of aesthetics and taste. I just like the classic LN lines.

I don't own a 4 1/2. I don't smooth a lot of large surfaces so I've never thought I needed a smoother that large. I have a #3 and a #4 that get most of the use, and they get used for all kinds of things, including rails and styles, miscellaneous trimming and such. I know many people swear by the 4 1/2, but in my view it's too big for most of my work. If I could have only one smoother, it would be a #4. I think it's the best all-round smoother, although I use my #3 just about as often on small work.

I don' t know how you're going to get by without a jointer of some kind. Unless you're limited to small work, I don't think you're going to be satisfied with a jack in this role. I have a #7 I use a lot. I also have #6 that I use both as a rough dimensioning plane, like a jack, and as a jointer on shorter boards. That might be an option for you. I don't own a #8. I find them too big and heavy for me - I'm a small guy and a #7 suits me fine.

For your block plane choice, I suggest you look at the little LN 103. It's probably my favorite plane. I have a well-fettled Stanely 60 1/2 that sits on the shelf. I use the little 103 for everything. It's just a wonderful tool - solid, fits the hand, easy to use, keeps an edge a long time and it's great on end grain.

I have a pair of LN 140s that I like a lot. They are good for trimming tenon shoulders, rabbeting, end grain work and some other things. I like them for shooting small stuff and I use them for large block planes from time to time. The skew blade helps with tenon cheek trimming in two ways: (1) it's good cross grain and (2) it pulls the plane snug against the tenon shoulder so you can trim the cheek right up into the corner. If you "push the plane on through" when trimming a tenon cheek, you'll get some blowout - maybe not as much as with a straight-bladed plane, but enough to be a problem. For this reason it's a good idea to back up the tenon cheek with a scrap backer board to prevent the blowout. I don't own a rabbet block plane, so I can't compare the two. My guess is that the skew blade with a nicker on the 140 gives you some options you don't get with the rabbet block plane. If the truth be told, however, the planes are expensive and you don't really need them. The job most often done by 140s, trimming tenon cheeks, can be done very well with a wide sharp chisel; and common tools perform the other tasks 140s are used for. Unless you can't live without them (like me), spend your money on other more useful tools initially and add these specailty items later.

I agree with the suggestions that you dont' need a complete set of mortise chisels - that's probably a waste of money. Decide what two or three sizes you will use most and buy them. I would also suggest you look at the Ray Iles oval bolstered mortise chisels sold online by Joel Moskowiczs (I probably butchered that spelling - sorry Joel!) at toolsforworkingwood.com. The old English oval bolstered mortise chisel is much stouter and more powerful than sash mortise chisels like the LNs, and the Ray Iles reproductions in modern D2 steel are excellent. In my opinion they beat the sash mortise chisels, hands down. If you're going to be cutting a lot of mortises by hand, you owe it to yourself to look at these.

Good luck with gearing up your new shop. Sounds like fun.

Hank

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks for the great reply Hank. :)

OK. So there is another vote for a jointer. So I think I will have to squeeze a #7 jointer in. So that means a little reshuffling or dropping something.

And it appears that getting a full set of Chisels is a bit of a waste. Thanks everyone for the practical advice in selecting which tools to get. I can see the benefit of all your advice so I will take this good advice and cut back to maybe one or two mortice chisels and and maybe two paring or bench chisels for now and build my inventory over time as needed. (if needed)

And thanks for you input Hank about the #4 LN. I have been wondering if the #4 1/2 is a little heavy and large. I think that if I go the bevel down route I will look at the LN #4 bronze. From my undertstanding from reading around, I think the bronze will give a little extra weight for smoothing with the smaller size plane. Would that be right?

But still I need to decide on bevel up or bevel down....:confused:

[Robert Trotter]

With the LN140, there is LH and RH version. Do you really need both or is one adequate?

When I was thinking about the LN140 or 60 1/2R I was thinking that it would help to give a better finish (flatter) across tenon shoulders and would also speed up the process a bit. (And because one of those "I'd like to have one":D things, I suppose.) And because as time is limited and there could be a while between cutting everything for a project and final assembly, I thought it might be good for cutting the tennons oversize and then just quickly trimming them to fit at assembly.
Will the 140 or 60 1/2R do these?

Or would the medium shoulder plane be used for trimming up the cheeks too? I have been trimming my cheeks (tenon cheeks that is:D ) with a chisel up till now. I suppose as you suggested I could postpone this one till later. but they do look nice.:D


Hank, as far as "resetting the blade" I ment replaceing the blade back into the plane after sharpening or changing blades. I understand that the LNs have a "yoke" (is that the right term?) plate that has to be adjusted while the Veritas doesn't.

Do LN plane blades come with their own yoke plate or does it have to be swapped over each time you change the blade? (say for a differnt bevel angle blade)


And I had a look at the Ray Iles reproductions in modern D2 steel as you suggested and you have me reconsidering. Very nice... Hmmmm... what to do:confused:



Hi Tod. I was looking at new as I don't have the equipment to fettle older tools. But I might be persuade if I could fully fettled planes (especially the #7 or plough planes) so I only need to work the blades. By the time I got everything for fettling here in Japan the cost would be getting close to new anyway.

[Hank Knight]

[QUOTE=Robert Trotter]With the LN140, there is LH and RH version. Do you really need both or is one adequate?[QUOTE\]

Stanley only made one version, so I guess the answer is: No, you don't need both. Which one you get depends on what you're going to do with it and whether you are right handed or left handed. If your main use for the 140 is trimming tenon cheeks and you're right-handed, you probably want the left handed version. When you use left handed version of the plane in your right hand to trim a tenon cheek the blade skew will work to your advantage to pull the plane snug against the tenon shoulder. The right handed verson works the other way - unless you're left handed. Generally, though, a right handed person would want a right handed 140 for long edge work. Sometimes grain direction will dictate whether you need the right or the left handed version, particularly on long edge work. For these reasons it's handy to have both, but probably not necessary.

[QUOTE=Robert Trotter] When I was thinking about the LN140 or 60 1/2R I was thinking that it would help to give a better finish (flatter) across tenon shoulders and would also speed up the process a bit. (And because one of those "I'd like to have one":D things, I suppose.) And because as time is limited and there could be a while between cutting everything for a project and final assembly, I thought it might be good for cutting the tennons oversize and then just quickly trimming them to fit at assembly.
Will the 140 or 60 1/2R do these? [QUOTE\]

Yes, both will work fine for this. So will a shoulder plane. I have a large LN shoulder plane and I actually prefer it to the 140 for trimming tenon cheeks - and shoulders, if one must.

[QUOTE=Robert Trotter] Hank, as far as "resetting the blade" I ment replaceing the blade back into the plane after sharpening or changing blades. I understand that the LNs have a "yoke" (is that the right term?) plate that has to be adjusted while the Veritas doesn't.

Do LN plane blades come with their own yoke plate or does it have to be swapped over each time you change the blade? (say for a differnt bevel angle blade) [QUOTE\]

The LN LA smoother has a yoke much like an upside-down version of the Bailey or Bedrock adjuster. The yoke plate is fixed to the blade so you don't have to swap them out when changing blades. They are no trouble. I had actually forgotten this design detail, so I went down to the shop an looked at the LA smoother and the LA jack. Surprise! There is no yoke or yoke plate on the jack; it adjusts like a block plane.

Rob Lee really gave you some interesting information in response to your other post. I can't wait to see what's coming down the LV pike. They are a wonderful company and make great tools.

Cheers.

Hank

[Robert Trotter]

Hi again. So if I only get a couple of mortice (mortise?) chisels then to help decide which size or sizes here is a question.

For a mortice and tennon joint which in your experiences is the most critical size? ie. Is it better to have a slightly thicker tennon or slightly thinner? I have just been using what I have so it didn't matter. but to help me decide on new one(s) your advice would help.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

robert, if you`re not dead set on new i`ve found patrick leach to be an upstanding used tool dealer....02 tod
Hi Robert, thanks for the PMs, nice to see another Gaijin woodworker in Japan on this board!

Expanding on tod's comment, I think that when it comes to chisels, here in Japan, you cannot go wrong with buying used.

For an example, I did a quick search on Yahoo Auctions here (E-bay did not make it in Japan).

46720
$8 set

46724
$8 set

46723
$10 set

46721
$10 set

46722
$10 set

Now these are on auction, so they can go up, but often they do not go up, or even get bid on. I have picked up a few sets like this, and while there where some dogs in amongst the jewels, there sure were some nice chisels in there. I used the dogs to practice on.

cont................

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I know that from the top smiths today, you can still get really, REALLY good steel in their great chisels, but I've found that with the older chisels, the run of the mill smiths made VERY good chisels out of good steel, just my own experience mind you, not looking for a fight about that, your mileage may vary! :D

Some more stuff on auction at good prices......

46725
$30 set

46726
$31 set, but these may not be that old, the sticker on the handles is a good indicator, as this is a fairly recent thing (I'm told).

46727
$31 set

46728
$31 set

Now you can see that some of the tools in these sets may not be what you need, some are certainly fairly used up, but there are some sets that have 3 or 4 good looking prospects, so that makes them really affordable, IMHO, as a little sweat and some TLC and these will become great daily workers for sure.

Heck, the old good ones I have you can shave with!

Just wanted to let you know what is around, I think these old sets are a great way to get some GOOD tools on the cheap, that way you can save your money to put put towards some nice LV or LN planes.

I know it is nice to get new tools, who does not like that, but for me, there is also a real joy in bringing back an old tool that has been cast off or rusting away in someone's granddad's tools box for many years. Might sound silly, but I think it is a good thing, talk about recycling!! :D

Let me know if I can help.

Cheers!

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Stu, thanks for info.

I just found your post burried in amongst them all. I didn't realise that sub-posts can keep going and you need to look deep.:rolleyes: or am I doing something wrong:o

I'll check out Yahoo auction when I get some time. I don't mind working on chisels to bring them up to scrath as I have the equipent to do that. So as you suggest, it may give a little extra to go toward planes. Thanks:)

And yes it is nice to find new people here in the land of the rising sun.

[Hank Knight]

Hi again. So if I only get a couple of mortice (mortise?) chisels then to help decide which size or sizes here is a question.

For a mortice and tennon joint which in your experiences is the most critical size? ie. Is it better to have a slightly thicker tennon or slightly thinner? I have just been using what I have so it didn't matter. but to help me decide on new one(s) your advice would help.

Robert,

The rule I learned is that the tennon should ba 1/3 the thickness of the stock, so the chisels you need will be determined by the size of the stock you use most. Like most rules, this one is is not cast in stone. I don't think it makes a lot if difference until the proportions begin to vary dramatically from the 1/3 rule. Many people like tennons a little thicker - say 1/2 the stock thickness. I use mortise chisels in three sizes: 3/16 for stock 1/2 to 3/4" thick, 1/4 for 3/4" stock, and 5/16 for stock up to 1" thick, and these have worked for me. I've thought about ordering a 3/8" OBM chisel from Joel - I just haven't gotten around to it and I really haven't needed one.

Stu has a great suggestion. I've never used a Japanese mortise chisel, but I understand they are great chisels. So are Japanese bench chisels - I have some and I just added three Japanese "slicks", or paring chisels, to my set. I really like them. I also understand that the older Japanese chisels have great steel. The prices on Stu's post make me green with envy. I wish I had your access to Japanese tool auctions. Reconditioning chisels is easy and you will almost certainly be happy with and proud of the results. My guess is that you can easily assemble a set of excellent Japanese chisels that will last you a lifetime. I agree with Stu: your money will go a lot further if buy good, used Japanese chisels instead of spending it on high dollar Western chisels. You will have more left to spend on planes and other things.

My $.02

Hank