Lee Valley Magnetic Dovetail Saw Guide

[Hans Braul]

Hi All

I was just wondering if anybody out there has experience with the LV magnetic saw guide for cutting dovetails. I just got one recently and love it. Do you think it's kinda cheating? Still need to be very careful to place the guide EXACTLY in the right place, but it sure eliminates the problem of sawing straight. Makes it much more likely to get a good result. I guess it's a bit like getting a calculator instead of learning the times tables, but I really like getting the right answer!

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/saws/05t0301g1.jpg
Hans

[Brett Baldwin]

I'm sure most of the great furniture makers we've ever heard of used every jig, guide and doodad that they found worked for them in saving time and making things easier. How many of the old timers didn't have a shooting board for squaring or mitering? For some, I'm sure that the guide would only slow them down but if it works for you, that's all that counts.
Of course if you put a laser on it, all bets are off.

[Mark Singer]

It is training wheels and will eat the teeth on your saw....it is better to practice to saw the old fashion way:rolleyes:

[Andy Pedler]

I have that tool. I tried cutting using the magnet once, and it didn't work well at all. Granted, I didn't mess around with it much, so maybe you can get it to work.

What I do like it for is a dovetail angle marking guide. It's hard to tell by the picture, but it can be used to easily mark pins and tails. Since the angle is fixed, you know all your marks come out consistently.

ap

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Hans

The LV dovetail saw guide is a great jig. Don't feel guilty using one - that should not enter the equation. The important thing is that you are cutting the joint with handtools.

Ideally, you will end up not needing a guide. As Mark says, this is a good set of training wheels. You will learn how to orientate the boards, mark the lines, cut to the line, train your hand and train your eye. It is all good.

The LV Guide works extremely well. The dovetail saw that accompanies it is barely OK but works satisfactorally. I have used a Japanese rip saw and Western tenon saws (they must just be tall enough to not foul on the top of the guide).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Looks neat, but with a little work, you can do it without that jig.

I can do one set of dovetails in about 20 minutes now, I know, not fast, but the frist set took HOURS!! :o ;) :D

Good luck, and what others said, "If it works for you.....Great!"

Cheers!

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73537166.jpg

This dovetail-cutting guide is much faster and more accurate.

[Jim Becker]

I contemplated the magnetic jig, but decided to make a simple wooden one to help me get the cut started "straight"...since I don't do it often, that little bit of help has been useful to me.

[Frank Fusco]

Neanderthals use magnets? :eek:

[Chuck Hamman]

I practiced and practiced and eventually I could cut decent dovetails. Then months would pass until the need arose again and I would practice somemore until I was confident enough to give it a go on my project. It got to the point that I just avoided dovetails and used some other method of making drawers and carcasses. Then I discovered the Veritas dovetail jig. Now I can make great looking dovetails whenever I want with little or no practice.
Cheating? Cheating who?
I love the thing, and it has never damaged any of my saws.

-Chuck

[Don Baer]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73537166.jpg

This dovetail-cutting guide is much faster and more accurate.

Not niander but I love it.

Thanks Bob.

[Hans Braul]

Bob, how do you figure the tablesaw is more accurate than the LV guide? Even if it was, I just enjoy the experience of hand tools so much more than things that can cut my arm off without even slowing down. I guess everybody eventually finds the thing that works best for them. It's always a balance between efficiency and satisfaction of learning a craft.

Thanks for the thoughts
Hans

[Alan DuBoff]

This dovetail-cutting guide is much faster and more accurate.There's a good option, a $500 table saw opposed to a $40 guide.:confused:

[Bob Smalser]

There's a good option, a $500 table saw opposed to a $40 guide.:confused:

Know any serious woodworkers without a table saw? You know...folks who produce more than a couple saw tills/chisel racks a year.

I don't.


...I just enjoy the experience of hand tools so much more than things that can cut my arm off without even slowing down. I guess everybody eventually finds the thing that works best for them. It's always a balance between efficiency and satisfaction of learning a craft.

You're welcome to rip however many linear feet of boards that pleases you. But after you've gotten good at it, spending your woodworking time at such drudgery does nothing at all to advance your skills, if your goal is to grow in the craft.

There's a time and place for high-end skills with hand tools...but usually in the fit-and-finish role and where because of steep angles or weight of the workpiece, machines can't do the job:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7309305/95249350.jpg



Anyway, here's the quickest way I know to cut through dovetails....quicker even than the bandsaw:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13905&highlight=dovetails

[Alan DuBoff]

Know any serious woodworkers without a table saw?I know some that don't have any table saw, Mike Wenzloff as a case in point. I know quite a few others that do not have any power tools even.

I agree, ripping a lot of lumber is no fun, and I recentely posted my view on that to the porch, so won't bore others with that view on hand vs. power. For anyone that has never rip'd 200 bf of lumber up, it's a lot of work even with a power tool.

I was more surprised than anything to see your response Bob, it seems you're typically confused why folks would buy new tools, or spend un-needed money on tools when they can get cheaper and often better old tools. Seems an old Disston would work just dandy. Seeing you reccomend using a table saw to cut a dovetail joint was a bit of a surprise.

Even though faster, I would pick up my handsaw to cut a dovetail before I did it on the table saw. Maybe my inexperience showing, I am only a hobby woodworker. I still won't let that stop me from building my own house. Maybe you can or cannot relate to that.

[Derek Cohen]

I certainly hope that the following is not taken as a personal flaming.

To begin with the bottom line, this is the handtools forum and we are responding to a handtools question. The response/recommendation should avoid being to use a power tool, although it is reasonable to add that this is an alternative method.

The fact is that there are many, many ways to skin a rabbet. Some we agree with, others not. What we need to avoid is being dogmatic about one point of view. This is a discussion board.

The reason I was supportive of the LV Guide is that it will help a novice enter new territory. He wants to use hand tools, so what can be done to foster this interest, maintain enthusiasm in the face of learning a difficult skill, and provide a path to more advanced skills. Do we, instead, toss him in at the deep end or say that he should not even consider the venture?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I certainly hope that the following is not taken as a personal flaming.

To begin with the bottom line, this is the handtools forum and we are responding to a handtools question. The response/recommendation should avoid being to use a power tool, although it is reasonable to add that this is an alternative method.

The fact is that there are many, many ways to skin a rabbet. Some we agree with, others not. What we need to avoid is being dogmatic about one point of view. This is a discussion board.

The reason I was supportive of the LV Guide is that it will help a novice enter new territory. He wants to use hand tools, so what can be done to foster this interest, maintain enthusiasm in the face of learning a difficult skill, and provide a path to more advanced skills. Do we, instead, toss him in at the deep end or say that he should not even consider the venture?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Good points Derek, I think it really depends on the person. I have been tossed into the deep end all my life! At 5 years of age, my grandfather took me for a little boat ride just off shore of the lake, he said "Stuart, do you know how to swim?" I replied "Nope" and he tossed me into the lake :D

Learned how to swim that day :rolleyes:

I showed up in Japan with some money and a few names of people at the Aikido Dojo, and that was it.

The point is, some people need/want training wheels, some don't, for the record, my dad bought a beat up old CCM Mustang bike for my older brother and I to learn on, no training wheels, once we could ride that, we got a nice new bike.

The main thing is, that we should all do what we feel comfortable with, but I think, as a group, we should also encourage people to let go of the training wheels :D

Cheers!

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Hans, I used to have one of these, but I sold it when I no longer found it helpful for me (plus I'd just bought a spiffy dovetail saw). It can help you learn how to hold the saw though, and that's useful.

(Another non-owner of a table saw, fwiw.)

[Rob Lee]

Hi All

I was just wondering if anybody out there has experience with the LV magnetic saw guide for cutting dovetails. I just got one recently and love it. Do you think it's kinda cheating? Still need to be very careful to place the guide EXACTLY in the right place, but it sure eliminates the problem of sawing straight. Makes it much more likely to get a good result. I guess it's a bit like getting a calculator instead of learning the times tables, but I really like getting the right answer!

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/saws/05t0301g1.jpg
Hans

Hi Hans -

I don't think it's cheating.... using whatever it takes to get whatever you're doing finished to the quality level you want is all that's important. As with any tool - it'll be appropriate for some, and not for others...

Before we introduced the 90 degree version - I had resisted it (read "blocked") in our R&D queue.... that is, until I heard from a customer with hand tremors who asked for one so that he could continue woodworking... that's what pushed it into the market.

When evaluating tools - it's easy to forget that not every woodworker has the same capabilities - or capacity for skill development...

Our focus has always been to put out things that work, and the information necessary for you decide if it works for you...

Cheers -

Rob

[Bob Smalser]

...I was more surprised than anything to see your response Bob, it seems you're typically confused why folks would buy new tools, or spend un-needed money on tools when they can get cheaper and often better old tools. Seems an old Disston would work just dandy. Seeing you reccomend using a table saw to cut a dovetail joint was a bit of a surprise...




...To begin with the bottom line, this is the handtools forum and we are responding to a handtools question...

Y'all don't get it, do you?

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/saws/05t0301g1.jpg

Hand tools forsooth. What's the difference between buying and using every ridiculous inert and powered gizmo that comes down the pike....from simple jigs to fancy Tormeks and the like....and using a more efficient power tool from the getgo?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73537166.jpg

Answer: Not a whole lot. Nothing wrong with training wheels providing you grow beyond them....and frankly, I don't see very much of that in "hand" tool forums.

[Mike Wenzloff]

...The main thing is, that we should all do what we feel comfortable with, but I think, as a group, we should also encourage people to let go of the training wheels
How one views a jig or workholding device varies from person to person--is a jig a crutch or is it a device to be utilized?

I have had experience with the LV DT saw guide. It works and works well.

It really amazes me that people look down on using such a device, whether overtly or subtly. And yet, how many people, if this type of question had been asked in the powertool forum--for instance, which DT jig should I buy--would recommend one of the dozens of router jigs, or even the bandsaw or tablesaw to cut DTs?

Heck, freehand them using a router. Be a real woodworker. I have done this when my PC Omnijig was too limiting. I have used a TS and BS as well. Both with fences and in the case of the TS, a miter gauge--both for controlling the cut. They are jigs of one nature or another. This is really no different than a guided handsaw device such as the LV DT guide.

Like Derek wrote, this is a handtool forum, the question is as regards a handtool method. My opinion about the guide is that it works, so if one wishes to use it, great. If not, then develop other methods, powered or hand, and make joints.

Take care, Mike

Oh. In the interest of full disclosure, I do own a TS. It is in the storage shed in the back of the property. I think it still works...

[Mike Wenzloff]

Y'all don't get it, do you?

Hand tools forsooth. What's the difference between buying and using every ridiculous inert and powered gizmo that comes down the pike....from simple jigs to fancy Tormeks and the like....and using a more efficient power tool from the getgo?

Answer: Not a whole lot.
Well, Bob. You don't get it.

Your replies, both of them, are highly appropriate had the OP asked about powered means.

But the OP asked a simple question, in the appropriate forum, about a handtool device. It wasn't about production efficiencies.

Take care, Mike

[Bob Smalser]

Heck, freehand them using a router. Be a real woodworker.

Use a router freehand?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84781857.jpg

OK ;) How 'bout one more difficult?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6490387/81276782.jpg

It's about woodworking, and the part hand tools play. It's also about learning the craft, and as I said, some training wheels are counterproductive.

[Mike Wenzloff]

But the point is, Bob, there are jigs you use rather than freehand. Where one draws the line between calling "devices" jigs or crutches is a personal decision. It is when they apply their personal choice to another it may not be appropriate.

I too do not believe handtools should be pitted against powertools. One can have both and choose between them. But, once again, the OP asked about a guided handsaw option, not the best PT option. The choice had been made.

So it seems now the question is, do we help the person or tell them they are all wrong?

Take care, Mike
who is now done going off-topic.

[Mark Singer]

The use of the LV guide if thought of as a training guide may be the most useful. If you are using it be sensitive to the angle of the saw....think of it as a learning tool that you will leave behind at some point.....how does the grip feel when it holds the blade verticle....it may help to train your hand and eye to feelng the corect position. It cannot help with many joints that are very good to saw by hand. To be a good woodworker , handsawing is an important skill and should be practiced. It is a great feeling to know you can mae a joint using handsaws if you want. Often I perfer them to my tablesaw or bandsaw.....sometimes the power tools seem more appropriate....it is nice to have the option and the LV guide will only take you so far.....if you rely on it soley , you quickly reach the end of the road and will always fear you will mess up a joint if you try sawing it by hand....that is why practice will help you improve and add one more important skill to your tool chest....I feel an important one ( and I love power tools also):rolleyes:

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Before we introduced the 90 degree version - I had resisted it (read "blocked") in our R&D queue.... that is, until I heard from a customer with hand tremors who asked for one so that he could continue woodworking... that's what pushed it into the market.

When evaluating tools - it's easy to forget that not every woodworker has the same capabilities - or capacity for skill development...

Wow, Rob, thanks for putting it into perspective. Also, thanks for making such a cool gadget. :)

[Alan DuBoff]

Hand tools forsooth. What's the difference between buying and using every ridiculous inert and powered gizmo that comes down the pike....from simple jigs to fancy Tormeks and the like....and using a more efficient power tool from the getgo?

...

Answer: Not a whole lot. Nothing wrong with training wheels providing you grow beyond them....and frankly, I don't see very much of that in "hand" tool forums.I know that I don't get it, I rarely get things the way your myopic posts are typed. However, I really think that you're missing the big picture. For some like me this is a hobby. I enjoy it for what it is, and I work wood at the pace and style I prefer. You often make condencending remarks towards users of this and other forums, and belittle folks for doing anything that varies from your way.

I have continued to have differences with you over this fact of having an open mind, and you continue to look down on woodworkers that don't do things the way you do.

In the past I admired your articles, but now I take your comments with a large grain of salt, and realize there are many ways to work wood. A lot of people work wood here, and some encourage them to do so. Your comments about nobody doing anything (except for yourself that is;-) are the same type of condecending remarks I've seen from you in other posts.

Seeing you reccomend a table saw to cut a dovetail in the hand tool forum is just irony.

I will remind you, all people work wood differently. All people are interested in woodworking for a different reason

I would like to thank you for something though. By understanding your way, it has actually allowed me to get along better with my kids. It has reminded me to be open to other's view and that my way of doing things is not always the best way for them. I have learned to at least be open minded to listen to the way my kids might think of doing something, it might actually be a better solution in the end.

I hope you don't treat your children the same way you treat the members of this and other forums. If so, I offer my sorrow to them.

I will continue to learn more about working wood, and as I do so I will try to share some of it with others. Much of this involves using hand tools, wether it be how you like me to do it or not, I am doing it for myself in the end. Please try to have a friendlier view of working wood, and please do help folks. Maybe one day folks like me will enjoy reading the articles you've done in the past, once again. I rarely use them as reference anymore, even though you have so many of them, just because of your personality in forums like this one. There are plenty of other solutions and articles that offer more constructive idea and approach working wood with an open mind.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Amen, Alan. Personally, I like the peace, quiet, and extra space afforded me by not having a table saw.

[Ian Gillis]

For something to be a 'cheat' there have to be rules. The only hard and fast rules in woodworking should be the ones that concern your health and safety. I'm trying to bring my dovetail skills back to where they were 20 yrs ago. I decided not to buy that jig from LV because my goal is skill development.

My personal 'rules' tell me to invest the time and material required to get the result I want. I admit to being a bit masochistic in this, but like the guy who hits himself repeatedly with a hammer - it feels so damn good when it's over.

Use the jig - make some joints. If you ever get bored with your dovetails, there's nothing stopping you from going freehand. As Dierdre said, you'll have learned how to hold and move the saw.

Rules schmoolz! The only rule in here is that we do it with hand tools. In your workshop you can cut them any old way you like, though.

Cheers

IG

[Maurice Metzger]

Sure do, Frank, I couldn't get through the day without them. I put them in my aluminum foil hat to stop the alien transmissions...

Cheers,
Maurice

[Bob Smalser]

How one views a jig or workholding device varies from person to person--is a jig a crutch or is it a device to be utilized?

It's just like sharpening jigs.....counterproductive to attaining skill.

Using hand tools is an integrated physical act of eye-torso-arm-hand coordination akin to athletics. If you can't look at the initial flat you made with a stone:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/69053973.jpg

...and successfully adjust your hold to true it up with the edge:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/69053987.jpg

...then you can't do the same to wood using chisels, slicks, shaves and planes anywhere near your potential:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302197/41734999.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302197/41734982.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3302197/42016002.jpg

The discipline of sharpening and using your tools without training wheels is part and parcel to proficiency with them.


Oh. In the interest of full disclosure, I do own a TS. It is in the storage shed in the back of the property. I think it still works...

http://woodworking-magazine.com/blog/content/binary/pannel3.jpg

Right. So you rip with bandsaw and jointer. Two steps instead of one. Or do you really cut and shape these handles commercially using turning saw and rasp? If so, you should get more for them. ;) Sure looks like single-radius shaper work from here.

[Mike Wenzloff]

...

http://woodworking-magazine.com/blog/content/binary/pannel3.jpg

Right. So you rip with bandsaw and jointer. Two steps instead of one. Or do you really cut and shape these handles commercially using turning saw and rasp? If so, you should get more for them. ;) Sure looks like single-radius shaper work from here.
I rip/resaw with a bandsaw in general. Don't own a jointer anymore. For furniture, I use mostly exotics which ate tablesaw blades and I got far more life out of bandsaw blades. It was economics. I reserve the tablesaw for general carpentry around the place instead of furniture.

The handles are compound curves which smoothly blend into each other, done by rasps and files. For instance, the area on that handle which fits the palm is a tighter radius than at the horns. On closed handles like the one above, the inside of the hand-hold is cut out with a fretsaw. It too is comprised of compund curves.

Perhaps a slightly different photo of a different Kenyon replica would illustrate at least the top shape better for you:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/md/md_0004.jpg

Though it cannot be seen in that photo you used, the entire top is contoured as a low, compound curve, including the bead. Something no shaper or router can do as efficiently as by hand.

The stock started out as a piece of German Beech, about 2 1/8" x 24" by about 9' long. The stock was planned out, cross cut in half by Gilmers for me. These halves in turn had the center 3" cut, resulting in four main pieces for handles.

About 7 1/2" are cut form one of those 4 pieces, resawn on the bandsaw for each handle blank. A pattern is laid on them, drawn and cut out on the small bandsaw using a 3/16" blade. A hole is drilled through the hand hold for closed handle types and the fret saw removes the bulk, as close to the line without slowing us down as possible.

A rasp cleans the profile up. The blank is then thicknessed. On a handle which has more than an 1/8" to remove, the large bandsaw rips a wafer off, the handle is passed a couple times through a Performax sander to 1/32" over thickness. Blade slot is cut, blade fitted, the bolt/split nut holes drilled with the blade in the handle, etc. etc.

Then the handle is shaped with rasps, smoothed with files and hand sanded. In general, Qualasole is used as the finish and if requested, oil and or lacquer in proper sequence. Sometimes the finish requested has been plain old Carnuba wax.

As to cost? I hope I get efficient enough while maintaining how we shape them to actually lower the cost. On the panel saws, the biggest labor cost is taper grinding the steel. In general the largest cost is hand shaping the wood.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

Bob, I nearly always choose to develop a skill. But I also recognize some have hesitation or simply don't want to--and some I believe cannot. For others it is simply a decision. It's OK.

I view jigs for sharpening or for sawing much like a template. It helps to ensure a certain result. It might even be a stepping stone to a different skillset. Which might include learning the process differently by hand or even how to accomplish the same or similar task via a machine. Again, it's OK.

Heck, I even use miter templates when I elect to miter the inner bead on a frame and panel assembly. They--miter templates--have existed for a couple hundred years and they are a fast way to miter those corners--on larger doors I cope using gouges after marking.

Is that cheating? Yep. And it is the fastest way to do the job that I have found. At least by hand.

My grandfather use to be able to get near perfect tooth spacing by eye. No marking a saw blade or using a template of any kind. Does that make him a better person or better worker than I? No. Made him more skillful in that task, though. But I cannot do it. I've tried. But I cannot. So I don't sweat it.

Take care, Mike

[Bob Smalser]

How do you lay up a panel without a jointer? Glue the bandsawn edges?

[Mike Wenzloff]

Panel edges either get jointed by hand using a #6 or a #8, held in a vise, or on a shooting board.

Most times I am veneering panels whether they be framed or the doors themselves. For doors which get veneered I typically make a cross-banded core of solid wood vs. MDF or ply. But I do use ply as well, especially if that's what the build budget calls for.

Here's some shopsawn veneer being edge glued into what will be side and back panels:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/credenza/slides/credenza_0055.jpg

Wedges press the edges snugly together while the glue sets. These in turn were glued to ply:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/credenza/slides/credenza_0061.jpg

Here's the side and back panels in place:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/credenza/slides/credenza_0064.jpg

But solid wood, for instance the top of this piece, the same proceedure is done, just bigger stock. Using a handplane:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/credenza/slides/credenza_0068.jpg

Take care, Mike

[Dave Anderson NH]

A gentle warning folks. I've had a couple of complaints from members about the tone and the borderline insults in this thread.

As long as this discussion continues to shed more light than heat I will allow it to continue. Please back off your attitudes and read what you write before you post it.

This thread has some interesting information, but as soon as the next problem occurs, I will lock the thread to prevent further posts.

[Chuck Hamman]

Hi Rob,
I just want you to know that there was a time when I suffered from tremors. Your dovetail guide cured me:)

[Frank Pellow]

Hans, I have the guide and the saw and I like it. :)

It might be considered cheating by purists, but I am no purist, and I like the results. I have tried many times over the years to cut dovetails by hand, but was never happy with the results until I used this jig.

[Chris Padilla]

Frank,

Do you think you'll always use the jig or do you think it'll train you to do it well free-hand some day?

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,

Do you think you'll always use the jig or do you think it'll train you to do it well free-hand some day?
I think that I will always use the jig.

I have lots and lots of additional woodworking skills other than cutting dovetails that I want to aquire and, since I am happy with the dovetails that I can cut with the Lee Valley gizmo, I will concentrate on aquiring those other skills rather than on perfecting my dovetail technique.