MiniMax sliding table saw

[Chris McDowell]

Hi everybody. This is my first time posting on this forum. I was wandering if anyone had any information on the MiniMax S315SW sliding table saw.
I run a one man cabinetshop and need to be able to process sheet goods faster that I can on my Unisaw with Excalibur sliding table. I have posted on other forums but have been very disappointed with the responses. Seems like most people want to steer me to a Martin or an Altendorf.
While these are fine machines they exceed my price range and I think the MM would suit my needs just fine. Anybody out there with experience on this machine ? Will it stay in adjustment and the slider remain accurate?
I have never seen one of these or used one. I am looking to collect all the information I can over the next few months so I could make an informed purchase after the first of the year.
Thanks,
Chris McDowell

[mike merrill]

hi i have a 315 it has been great saw i use it for ply and hard wood
with ease you will like the saw you get lot of bang for your buck
mike

[tod evans]

chris, welcome to smc! i own a 315, been abusing it for over 3 yrs and it`s still accurate and a pleasure to use. sure martins and altendorfs are great saws but like you my finances kept them out of reach, i don`t regret buying the mm one bit.....02 tod

[Brian Buckley]

Chris, I have had a MM 410 Elite for almost 2 years. It is a nice saw that can do alot more than I am capable of. The slider will hold up to anything you can throw at it. You will also enjoy working with the people at MM.

Brian

[Paul B. Cresti]

Chris,
I went from a table top to a contractor saw to a Unisaw to a MM S315WS and now the MM Formula S35 (wanted the longer 10ft slider) and am very happy I did. Here on SMC I attempted to give the folks here an explanation of just how useful these sliders are click on the links below for my past post on this subject. I hope it helps and also feel free to contact me if you want. I can certainly understand the "leap of faith" required to change the way you work (for the better by the way)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23389
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23774
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24502
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=26285
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28088
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=29871
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=31545

[lou sansone]

chris
I would also recommend that you try to determine the " demographics" of those making the recommendations to you for the martin ect. I have spent quite a bit of time researching various machines in the past, and one of the things that became clear to me is to make sure you know what type of business those who are making the recmmendation to you are in and what type of work they do ( price point and all that). I think that you will find that the current line of MM / Tecnomax (S315WS) have been beefed up ( not that they needed to ) even more and are getting close to the regular SCM line. Paul's s35 is basically a SCM saw.

I am sure that someone in your neck of the woods has one that you could look at ( BTW you can indicate your location on the SMC log in ).

best wishes
lou

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I don't think you will get a Martin (new) for less than $25-Grand. However if you can get a Martin you will have a peach of a machine.

MM and Felder are both stateside and both very good manufacturers. Felder has a showroom in Delaware where they run a shop exactly for the purpose of letting you take their equipment out for a test drive.
MM will find you people in your area who will let you take a poke at their equipment.

Depending on which coast you are near, the shipping may be an issue. Neither MM nor Felder will do a drop ship from the European factories. The result is you pay for shipping from their USA headquarters.

I recently swapped up from a conventional saw to an 8' Austrian slider. I ain't never going back.

Take your time about your purchase. All sorts of issues will crop up from shipping, where the power switches are located, whether you are more or less into panel processing, whether you have three phase power, whether you want to add a phase converter to your shop, etc.


Considering joining a dedicated owner's group for the manufacturers There is one for MM and another for Felder. On those sites you will find a huge load of information and even used equipment for sale.

Felder is here: >>http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/<<

I don't know what the URL for MM owners group is.

[Marty Walsh]

Here's the MM owners group site:

finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MiniMax-USA/

- Marty -

[Chris McDowell]

Thanks everyone for the information. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I am not interested in a Martin or any other top level saw. While these are great machines they are beyond my price range. I have joined the MM owners group already and thanks for the suggestion.
I like the MM 315 and from what I have read so far about the saw,just looking for the kind of info a salesman is not going to give you. I posted on another forum I frequent and got slammed for even thinking about buying that level of saw.
Nothing personal but everyone has their opinions and I will make up my own mind. I just wanted to get information from users of the product.
I like what I read and see here. People seem kind and willing to share of their own experiences. Sadly a lot of forums have turned into a judgemental and unenjoyable places. Keep up the good posts. Like it or not you guys have converted me to the creek.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I posted on another forum I frequent and got slammed for even thinking about buying that level of saw.
Not a bright bunch over there huh? Why anywone would get all froggy over someone elses decisions is beyond me. I actually think I know what forum that was. No need to say though.

[Jim Becker]

Chris, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how much information you'll get from MM when you speak with them...I'd order up the 315 in some format right now if our home addition wasn't coming in, oh...way more than we originally figured. (I was going to build it into the budget. Rats...) All of the folks are dedicated to good customer service pre- and post-sale and Sam is actually a cabinetmaker with a working shop in the MM facility.

[Chris McDowell]

Jim, here's hoping that budget improves. I got the new literature today on the 315 and boy it sure looks impressive. I can't imagine why it would not work for me. The salesman was very helpful not pushy[something I cannot say about Laguna] and informed on the product.
He said the saw has been beefed up quite a bit which really peaks my interest. And Lou you understand exactly what I have been trying to get people to understand at other forums. No one can tell you if buying a product is right for you or not. It's a personal decision based on a multitude of factors including how you use it, what can you afford and so on. I really appreciate people keeping in the spirit of the thread and just offering information and their personal experience. After all that's all you can really do for anybody. I'm new here but I really like this place.
Chris

[Justin Nelson]

Chris,

Just thought I would chime in here with my two cents on the subject. Just got my Mini........er Technomax about 4 months ago and got it set up and running.
I got the 5hp single phase motor and the SW315S that you are looking to buy. Hopefully I could be of some assistance to you, because I have waded through most of this already.
I really wanted to buy and Altendorf or a Martin, but WOW price tags were a little bit of a stretch for them. So I started looking in the used market for a saw, but had concerns with abuse, wearing out of the guide rails and such.
So I looked into Hammer, Rojek, Felder, Minimax, Laguna even at a Grizzly (Don't tell Paul I mentioned that). After many conversations with various manufactures and alot with Sam (great guy by the way) at Minimax, and private emails with Paul, I decided that getting a new Entry level (using that term loosely on this saw) saw was the way to go. Narrowed my choices down to Felder and Minimax and probably the deciding factor was the patience of Sam at minimax, not ever being pushy about selling the saw, told me differences about the saws, which is mainly the argument about the trunnions you read everywhere.

Anyhow not to bore everyone so I'll get to the point.

Pro's:
1. This saw for being an entry level format is heavily built (1500 Pounds)
2. Great customer support (very important to me)
3. SMOOOOOTH
4. Plenty of HP for cutting sheetgoods even with only a single phase 5HP motor.
5. Fairly square out of the box, still in need of some tweaking to be perfected.
6. Seems to stay in adjustment
7. Does not require special blades like the Felder.

Cons:
1. The flipstops on the outrigger are positioned about 3/16" above the scale so getting an accurate setting takes about twice as long as it should.
2. My scoring motor is flipping my thermal overload switch, I would guess the motor or the cooling fan on the motor is at fault. (Sam assured me it is under warranty and will be fixed)
3. If you are not mechanicaly inclined this will be a con, you are on your own to adjust this girl, phone calls only get you so far, but squaring it so all parts are cutting properly can be a bit of a task. I like to tweak so it doesn't bug me to much.
4. No dado capabilities.
5. Getting used to a Format saw versus a normal Tablesaw.

All in all small glitches on the machine and truth be told the first on bugs me the most, still trying to figure out how to fix that one. Yes it is not a Martin, but is most definately not and excalibur or exactor add on to a tablesaw. I feel once I get it dialed in and the scoring motor not to flip the thermal switch this machine will serve me well for many years. Expensive, yes. Worth it, Definitely.

Good luck and sorry for the long post.

[lou sansone]

BTW Chris

are you able to use 3 phase equipment ? if so the s315ws comes with a pretty powerful 9 hp main motor and ~ 1 hp scoring motor as standard equipment.

lou

[Paul B. Cresti]

Justin,
Congrats on the new saw and welcome to the MM family. As far as dado capability....I personally do not find that as a con. I hated using that dang stacked dado, it just took up soooo much time and then rendered my Unisaw useless when installed. Take a look at one of my past posts here about sliders. I created an outfeed table that acted as a double plated router table. One insert is oriented towards the slider (long ways is parrallel) and I use it as my dado machine. The other insert I use for normal router table use. In this way I kind of get a saw/shaper setup yet I do not tie up my T50 shaper for simple dado stuff.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=26285

The flip stops take some getting use to I agree. What I do is set my tape so that the stop when sitting on the left side of the line, that is when the correct dimension is read. I kind of site down the stop with one eye. The beauty of those flips stops is you can set up two for different dimensions or more if you add more flip stops but when you slide a piece of stock up against the fence that you do not want to register off of the stop, the stop due to its curved bottom will flip up out of the way.

The tripping of you scoring blade may be a couple of things. The heater element on the contactor for that motor maybe set too low...very common as it comes set at some factory setting. The other thing is did you make a zero clearance insert? If so it may be hitting it the wrong way and tripping it. On that subject due make a zero clearance insert. I used Garolite CE grade. Mine covers the entire slot right up to the slider edge...absolutley no gap. You will need to dig out the back for the scorer and riving knife though...

[Chris McDowell]

Thanks Justin,
I am very appreciative for your information and insight. That is exactly the kind of info I am looking for.
As for being mechanicaly inclined, I have to admit I have been a Diesel mechanic for my family for the last 16 years, so adjustments are no big deal to me. I run my shop of the day and work for my family at night. A situation that is about to change, but no going there, everyone has family if you know what I mean.
Lou, I do not have three phase power and it's out of the question in my location. Paul has told me the benefits of a phase convertor and I'm looking into it. Only trouble is every machine in my shop is single phase already so I don't know how much use it would be to me. I'll think on it.
One of my biggest concerns is the switch from a Unisaw to a slider that I am not familiar with, but I figure I can learn. As far as dadoes go I will keep the dado head mounted on my Unisaw. Should save a lot of time.
I have tried dadoes on my router stations, shaper, and other set ups but just keep coming back to the table saw. I guess it's what works for the individual.
Some of the differences I have come up with in research are the standard sliding table on the Felder 700s series will not rip 8' sheets of plywood, you cannot use more than a 10" blade in conjunction with the scorer, the scoring motor does not adjust independently of the main blade, and the rip fence is only 31" standard. Basically the 315 is a good basic machine ready to do what I need right out of the box and the Felder would take a lot of upgrades. And on top of that there's still the matter of those trunnions.
Thanks and keep it coming,
Chris

[tod evans]

chris, if you can swing the bucks for 3-phase you`ll never regret it. if you do decide to go with a converter get one large enough to run at least 2- 10 horse motors that way a whole new world of industrial equipment will be available to you. if you even think a widebelt may be in your future down the road 3-phase is a given....02 tod

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

WOW Justin, Great post !!


I looked into Hammer, Rojek, Felder, Minimax, Laguna even at a Grizzly (Don't tell Paul I mentioned that). Me too. It was an interesting trip wasn't it? I started with Laguna. It was their band saw that got me to Laguna.


mainly the argument about the trunnions you read everywhere. I ran into that too. Inspecting the Felder design I found it to be as solid as any trunion. Clearly there is more than one way to skin that cat. Don't know what Altendorf or Martin use.


Anyhow not to bore everyone so I'll get to the point. Quite the contrary I think lists like these are fabulous. Any person looking to buy wants exactly this sort of info.

ERGO I'm sub posting a complimentary Felder/Hammer/Format (FHF) comments under neath the MM observations. And I added some that I think are universal.


Pro's:
1. This saw for being an entry level format is heavily built (1500 Pounds) (FHF): Heavy also you do want to think about whether you want to move these things or not.


2. Great customer support (very important to me) (FHR) haven't needed much. There was a goof on my scoring order but I got it after a week.


3. SMOOOOOTH (FHF) YIPPER So smooth, isn't it sweet?


4. Plenty of HP for cutting sheetgoods even with only a single phase 5HP motor. (FHF) I got the 4-HP and It ploughs through 4" deep slabs of elm maple you name it. The power is there.


5. Fairly square out of the box, still in need of some tweaking to be perfected. (FHF) A little tweaking here too.


6. Seems to stay in adjustment (FHF) No movement so far. I've had a 250 pound work piece on the table too and it is solid as a rock.


7. Does not require special blades like the Felder. (FHF) Does have a special hole pattern this is because it has automatic electronic braking when you kill the motor. Forrest can grind any blade to accept the hole pattern for about $20.00 I bought mine from Felder.

(8.) The clamping options on any slider are fabulous !! You can clamp any shape piece to the sliding table and cut with no worries. You can make clamps or buy them.
The tables MM Felder Martin Altendorf etc., all have T slots.

(9.) The outrigger table on all of these machines is the shizzle. They support just about anything you can imagine putting on a saw. Stack up plywood sheet 4 layers deep clamp it and run it & the operation is one handed.

(10.) The mitre fences are the shizzle. you can get locking pins standard, that are dead on, or order digital miter fences that are dead on. Either way the swap out from 90Deg to any other angle is swift and easy. You can trust the locking locators.



Cons:
1. The flipstops on the outrigger are positioned about 3/16" above the scale so getting an accurate setting takes about twice as long as it should. (FHF) The flip stop is stiff but solid, works in either direction whether the fence is behind the work or in front of it.


2. My scoring motor is flipping my thermal overload switch, I would guess the motor or the cooling fan on the motor is at fault. (Sam assured me it is under warranty and will be fixed) (FHF) I have scoring too Felder goofed on the order so I had to install my own but I got it cheaper as a consolation.


3. If you are not mechanicaly inclined this will be a con, you are on your own to adjust this girl, phone calls only get you so far, but squaring it so all parts are cutting properly can be a bit of a task. I like to tweak so it doesn't bug me to much.
(FHF) ditto. I found Felder manuals to be unhelpful save for some good photos. I got it all set up and adjusted without referring to the manuals. These machines are really very straight forward. Truing a planer is more of a challange.
In either case Felder ( I'm guessing MM too) will send you a technition - you pay, and pay for these services. I say don't bother it's not rocket science it's wrenches a straight edge and an indicator.


4. No dado capabilities. (FHF) Has Dado. You can have any dado blade ground with theFelder hole pattern or buy Felder's Dado for over $400.00. I bought the Felder Dado with carbide inserts it is made of massive solid steel interlocking disks. It is way better than any dado cutter I have used. No chiping no tearout. The inserts on the edges are set like knives to prevent tearout and chipping. It works well.


5. Getting used to a Format saw versus a normal Tablesaw.
(FHF) Heh Heh Don't leave anything on the out feed end of the slider or when you pull the table back it may contact the blade and go airborn. Here is where switch location is an issue. Some saws have an on/off switch on the slider. Mine does not and I wish it did, as I gotta stretch (or walk around) to reach either of the other two switches when cutting a big panel.
This seems like a small thing until after you encounter it over and over and over. Then you start thinking about a remote switch.

(6.) Mobility. MM sells it with the machine as standard.
Felder charges about $200.00 for a pair of nylon wheels with bearings, a steel shaft, and some locking collars and another $80.00 for a lever bar to pick up & move the machine. O-U-C-H I literally blurted "Are you FU**ing Nutz??!!??!" at the sales rep. I said no thank you and made my own mobility. The holes for the axel are pre drilled in the frame. The holes will take a half inch bar with a length of half inch Copper pipe around it. I used cheap 4" plastic nylon wheels w/ no bearings, and threaded the ends of my rod stock (could have bought threaded rod). It works flawlessly. Don't pay $200.00 for two wheels !!

(8) Felder specific ---Sliding table travel is about a foot shy of ripping the length of 8' sheets of plywood.

(9) Felder specific ----- I have run a 12” blade with scoring. But blade height can be an issue as the blade moves forward when you raise it and the scoring unit remains stationary. A 12" blade can impact the scoring blade.


(10) Felder specific ---- I have an completely independent height adjustment for scoring.


(11) Felder specific ---- The rip fence is one of the first modifications I’ll make. I am looking at a Vega.





Expensive, yes. Worth it, Definitely. (FHF) Ditto. I'll never go back to a conventional saw. These things are inherrently safer too.
One main point is the price. To get the saw you want you will end up paying between 7 and 10 grand. You can get in for $6-grand but you will want some of the really sweet options that raise the price.

Compare that to a top end conventinal saw and it only seems like a lot before the purchase but afterward the money is spent and you are one happy camper.

[Ed Kowaski]

Justin, the scoring motor fan was loose on my technomax s315. I noticed it when the fan contacted the cover. It's a compression fit plastic unit with a steel ring. Some loctite fixed the problem. I never kicked the thermal breaker.

[John Renzetti]

Hi Cliff and Justin, Really good common sense posts. These are all real good machines designed for a smaller shop. One thing I can add is that I believe Chris is comparing the 700P series which Cliff has, with the 81" slider. The SP+ model in the catalog has the large frame of the typical Euro slider and a 10ft table, 49" rip, and the separate scoring. This is a three phase machine.
Since the trunion thing got slipped in here a few times (almost sounds like it came from a sales pitch), I checked the trunion on my F700 shaper and it sure looks like a lot of solid cast iron to me. On my Kappa 40 it is a different design which is double hung on the steel chassis. As Cliff mentioned it is a different design, but it's big and solid. The 450 version apparently has a double trunion all cast iron that weighs about 800lbs. In engineering there are different ways to accomplish the same thing; just because one has something different doesn't make it any better or worse than another design. I'm sure everyone has heard the pitch whether it be buying a car, truck or a saw, "well Brand X uses this, but we use this," as if using this system or that makes it better. There's other factors that come into play.
On the blades, the 30mm arbor (1 3/16") is standard on most European saws. I know Altendorf, Martin, Casolin etc use the 30mm.We're used to the US standard of 5/8" on the 10" saws.
There's a lot of good manufacturers of these machines out there and one of them will offer a configuration and price point that will satisfy the needs of every buyer. I'm not convinced that having a really large sliding table 8 to 10 ft is the optimum way to go for some pro shops especially if they don't do a lot of sheet goods. A smaller slider and something like the Festool system can work real well also and keep the costs down.
There's also something to be said for a good used slider. A friend, Greg Hairston, who posts here sometimes, got a deal on a used SCMI slider that was simply fantastic. Another good friend whose work has appeared in Architectural Digest has had a 20yr old Altendorf for 10yrs.
Well back to work, I've got a mission for Monday that I've got to plan. Don't want to run into that storm off the coast of the Bahamas.
take care,
John

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Powermatic has a sliding table saw too.
I have not seen it but I think Southern sells it

[tod evans]

Powermatic has a sliding table saw too.
I have not seen it but I think Southern sells it

cliff, i looked at this saw at iwf....it looks to me to be in the same league as the griz offerings although i`ve not looked at either very closely...02 tod

[John Renzetti]

The Powermatic sliders saws are, the last i checked, made by Robland in Belgium. The large version is the Robland 3200. It's a decent saw. Laguna Tools has them under the Robland name with a different paint job. It's heavy. From what I've seen on Woodweb those that own them really like them.
As far as the Grizzly sliders, the large one had a decent fit and finish. I think the crosscut fence and stops were a real good copy of the Altendorf. The slider movement was nice. Griz has come a long way since the early days. I'm interested in buying their small portable spray booth.
take care,
John

[Chris McDowell]

Great information guys,
I would like to know more about the set up on the Felder in regards to the lack of a trunnion. The saw I looked at is the 700S I believe. The salesman at MM said it was a good saw, but he thought they could help me out on the pricing. Many of the things I need are options on the 700S and they are standard on the 315.
I haven't ruled Felder completely out. I just started looking at both brochures and I will call Felder back to ask them some questions. It's only fair that I give them a chance to respond to my concerns as nice as they have been to me.
I just want the best bang for the buck. If anyone can explain in more detail why Felder has gone with less of a trunnion, I would be glad to hear it. I have looked at both sets and there is a substantial difference between the two units for mounting the motors. I know there is more than one way to do something well, and that may be the case here, but I also know one way to make more money is to put less into the product.
If you have seen or used the Felder, please chime in. The more knowledge I have the better decision I can make.
Thanks,
Chris

[Paul B. Cresti]

Chris,
Well first off take what I have to say about the green stuff as you wish. What I do say I can say is 100% the truth not quite sure others can say the same about there reasons for commenting and I will leave it at that. I will also say that my feelings on this manner while being truthful are also my opinion on what I feel is the better company, machine and way of doing things.

The green machines 700 series "trunion" on it saws are in this manner. It is a think steel plate that is mounted to the back of the saw. It has two dovetail ways on it, one high an one low. The saw assembly/motors hang off of these dovetailed ways. So basically it is a cantilevered design, clever in its own right but limiting and over time prone to deflection. Why do I know this because the actual assembly was shown to me by a green salesman in the green showroom. I commented on well can't that deflect over time? The answer I got was that with the smaller motors there was not a problem but he did not suggest using a motor in the 7.5 hp range as its weight could cause a problem. Now they do offer this option but he suggested not going for it.

Now it is my understanding, whether true or not, that there was complaints about this assembly over time. So in came the blue machines, 900 series, that have a different system....still not a true "trunion assembly. What it has is two blocks mounted to the underside of the table. These blocks have a corresponding hole in them where the saw assembly has the mating solid steel rod to fit. So in a sense the assembly with the rods is sandwiched between these blocks and then attached to the underside of the table. When someone I know asked about this assembly the answer they recieved was it is that way to allow for future repair....I say future repair from what???!!!! Now this is what I believe is to be true for all of their saws in the blue up to and including the kappa 40. If I am wrong someone please correct me.

Now the S315ws and up (that means the entire formula line & new tecnomax line) have what we Americans all now of as a true trunion assembly. It is two half moon shaped dovetailed ways (cast iron) mounted to the steel chasis cabinet on both sides. The entire saw assembly tilts via following the path created along those dovetailed ways. The thing to remember that no matter how big or how small the saw assembly is it is positively hung at to very solid points that have no play or deflection what so ever.

What I have also noticed and you noted too, that all things on the green machines are extra. There are many things that will "get you" if you do not realize what you are getting or if the salesman does not get it. One thing I seem to remember is the scoring on the green 700's. It is adjustable yes, but only useable when the main blade is raised to its furthest height. There are also deferent options in scoring: ones where it runs off of the main motor via belt, ones with separate motors and then also something about a removable flange that allows you to use a dado head. In comparison the S315WS scoring is a separate motor, separate belt and completely and independently adjusted separately from the main motor, that is it and it is standard. While the green stuff is all ala carte the S315WS options are single phase or three phase and I think you can get a 10.5ft slider if you want.

Sorry I have nothing good to say about the green stuff other than it looks pretty....but it reminds me of the Inspector Gadget mobile. As I said before the Italian made MM/SCM stuff (and I do mean ALL Italian made) is simple, elegant, straight forward and time tested. Do not forget that while MM is a relativley small company it is a direct descendent of the SCM group. It shares the same technology as the full SCM line. SCM is one of if not the biggest woodworking machinery manufacturer in the entire world. They have been around the block a few times too.

I will say it again what I have stated above I do believe is to be true. I am not trying to mislead anyone here just stating the facts to the best of my ability. Do I have a personal preference here? Sure do! I will put it this way. When I turned pro I put my fate into the hands of MM when I bought and continue, to buy their machines. I did have a problem here or there with a part or missing component, setup...... but that is to be expected of any machine of an industrial nature, setup is required. What they did for me was to be there for me no matter what. They overnighted stuff to me, talked me through it on the phone when I had no idea how to adjust something..... when I get this kind of service and also get a machine that I can constantly rely to work and work well....I suddenly become a big supporter.

PS Chris congrats on the new addition to the family....

[Chris McDowell]

Paul,
That's what I saw in the picture of the brochure from Felder. It was just not in the same league as the MM. I am concerned something like that may run good in the short term but fail in the long term. Really appreciate the post. I'll call them Monday and see what they say.
Chris

[tod evans]

chris, you`ll find that online information about minimax or felder to generally be pretty heated, or at least of the "i know i spent MY money wisely" type of post....you`re doing the right thing looking and asking questions. while you`re at the lookin`-n-askin` stage pay attention to the demographics of the folks who are providing answers, ask them how they use their equipment, are they thrashing it in a production setting or are they puttering on the occasional weekend....after you get your fill of opinions and marketing hype invest in a couple tanks of gas and go visit folks who have the equipment you`re looking at...you`re talking about investing a fairly large sum of money so go and "test drive" a couple machines from each manufacturer and listen to what their owners say not only about the machines but the sales-n-support staff, then take a few weeks and work with your current equipment paying close attention as to how your work would be improved by making a purchase of this magnitude. will it be more accurate? faster? safer? how long do you think it will take you to adjust your work methods to fully use this type of equipment? (double your estimation of time)........then figure a major upheaval in your shop bringing in a new piece of equipment, work stops, electric and dust will probably need reworked, other machines rearranged to accomodate the huge footprint these saws require, then you get to start training yourself........sure it`s fun but there ain`t nuthin` going out the door........just some things to think about....02 tod

[lou sansone]

Chris
I wanted to offer a slight correction to Paul's description of the Felder 700 series cantilevered trunnion. He used the word " dovetailed ways" which is not really accurate. This may be a subtle point, and I may get someone posting the actual mechanical print to prove me wrong, but the Felder single sided trunnion is not a dovetail way. It is simply a semicircular square sided profile, which means that it is not self locking ( if it were a true dovetail way it would actually serve to hold the motor assembly firmly to the front plate, which it does not. It relies in the tilt locking mechanism to do that).


The most famous single sided cantilevered saw design was the oliver 88. They only suspended the saw assembly from one side of the cabinet using a true dovetail way. The plate that supported the entire assembly was about 1" thick. I have been trying to get a photo of the assembly without much luck. One should not confuse the oliver 88 single sided trunnion with true dovetailed ways, with the Felder design. They are not even close in stature.

The 700 series is designed to accommodate the shaper at the other end of the base cabinet. It is a clever way of being able to use one side of the base cabinet to articulate the saw assembly and the other side of the base cabinet to articulate the shaper. It is clever, but IMHO it is a compromise.

Lou

[John Renzetti]

Hi Chris, Tod pretty much summed up most of what I was going to say. You can't decide what you want need or can afford until you go out and see the various machines in operation. Remember you are buying a saw and making a business decision at the same time; you are not joining a cult where only the informed and true believers pledge complete devotion one make of machine. That's absurd.
When you look at the machines, and I mean look at other brands, there's a lot out there, you'll see a lot of things make up a good slider-fit and finish, size of the outrigger, slider fences. Forget this phoney trunion thing, sounds like it came out of a sales manual. In the shops of that big white domed building in Washington DC, there is a Felder 700 series saw in operation; but I guess according to one ridiculous comment I heard, that Architect (of the Capitol) must be just a wealthy hobbyist.
Since you have time, keep your eyes out for a good used machine. They are out there. This might be in line with your budget and you could get more machine in the bargain.
It was recommended but you never did join the FOG (Felder Owners Group). I think you would have found a good group of pros, non pros,woodworking educators, who own a lot of different machines Felder, MM, Martin, etc. Smart people and I've become friends (as in real life, not just online) with a lot of them.
On a final note, doesn't Cave in Rock IL have a bike(as in Harley Davidson) rally called the Hogfest. One of our Aircraft mechanics has been to that. (I should have never sold that 1969 XLCH Sportster before I went to Vietnam). My wife actually wants to get a big Harley for herself.
Take care, and have fun shopping, and of course enjoy the newest member of your family.
John

[David Less]

Hi All,

Since everyone is talking about trunions on sliders what do you think of this one. It uses dovetail ways and rolled acme threads for true vertical raising and lowering and a 1" thick casting for piviting.

Shown is the scoring unit without blade. I think it is very well designed, what is everyone elses opinion?

Can anyone guess what the manufacture is??


David


http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_2.jpg



http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_3.jpg

[lou sansone]

Hi All,

Since everyone is talking about trunions on sliders what do you think of this one. It uses dovetail ways and rolled acme threads for true vertical raising and lowering and a 1" thick casting for piviting.

Shown is the scoring unit without blade. I think it is very well designed, what is everyone elses opinion?

Can anyone guess what the manufacture is??


David


http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_2.jpg



http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_3.jpg


Hi David

I will take a stab at it. It looks to me to be the felder 700 series, and thanks for posting the photo. You are correct that the verticle lift mechanism is a dovetail construction, as is the MM s315 series of saws ( although felder turns it design 90 degrees to the mm orientation for this series of saws). This is a tried and true design that the older american saw manufaturers used ( northfield and tannewitz if my memory is correct). The felder unit is quite well made, no question about it. My point clarification to the trunion discussion is that the trunion ( "C" pivot mechanism) is not a dovetail geometry ( sorry to pick on my friend paul, I am sure he will understand ) and that if we could get a side by side photo of the oliver 88 with its canterlievered dovetail trunion the difference would be apparent.

lou

[tim rowledge]

Just curious here - in that second picture it looks like there is only one trunnion; I see nothing behind the splitter. Is this true?

[Jake Helmboldt]

What is a format saw? (and why can't they take a dado setup?)

[David Less]

Here are some pictures of the shaper. The trunion is actually 1 1/8" thick cast, not 1". My mistake.

No Lou, it is not a Felder. I don't think Felder uses a tunion.

http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_11.jpg

http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_9.jpg

http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_12.jpg

[lou sansone]

Here are some pictures of the shaper. The trunion is actually 1 1/8" thick cast, not 1". My mistake.

No Lou, it is not a Felder. I don't think Felder uses a tunion.

http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_11.jpg

http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_9.jpg

http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Image_12.jpg


well "dog gone it" .... :( how about a knapp? :confused: I hate these trick questions.. it was the green that got me all mixed up

lou

[tod evans]

i`m bettin` on the knapp.....but i`ve never looked at one so it`s only a guess......tod

[John Renzetti]

Lou beat me to it. That's a Knapp. A very fine Austrian machine. Unfortuneately what was a rumor that was recently confirmed and they are in bankruptcy. Final outcome will not be known until sometime in Ocbober, my guess is that production will shift to Robland in Belgium. Robland owns a piece of Knapp Maschinenbau Gmbh.But there could be a total liquidation depending on the amount of new investment needed.
This is a shame since good competition like this is what spurs others to improve and inovate. I hope they manage to stay in Austria. Personally I'd like to take the strongest features of the Knapp and Felder and put them together. What a combo machine that would be, except none of us could afford it. I have three friends that own them and they really love the machine. It's got that old iron look and feel. Not everyone's taste nor budget but that's why we have the other fine combos in Felder, MM, Hammer, Rojek, Robland etc for someone who wants to go that route.
Another question referred to dados on a European slider. I know that full dado capacity is available on the Felder line, I think most of the MM line; Laguna has it on their saws; for some others like the Martin the dado is limited to the CE regulation maximum of 15.5mm.
With a format slider the sliding table edge is right next to the blade, around 3mm or so. Same applies when a Dado blade is added, the outside edge of the blade is still the same distance to the edge of the slider.
For Chris' purposes I don't think Knapp has a stand alone slider; only a saw/shaper. But the Knapp should definetly be put into play also especially if he starts thinking that a saw/shaper might give him more bang for the buck.
take care,
John

[tod evans]

But the Knapp should definetly be put into play also especially if he starts thinking that a saw/shaper might give him more bang for the buck.
take care,
John


john, i`d advise against anybody who`s doing production work to get a saw/shaper combo..for the hobbiest who doesn`t mind set up and tear down the combos are a great way to save space and money but for the guy looking to get stuff out the door i think stand alone machines are the only way to go...02 tod

[lou sansone]

I agree with john on the idea of blending all of the best features of each of the main choices out there into one super saw. Then again maybe we should all just look at the martin :) ..

I also agree completly with tod.. he has good wisdom in his comments.

best wishes
lou

[John Renzetti]

hi Todd, I do agree with you up to a point and it depends on the type of work being done. A good friend,Scott Slater in CA went from a full combo to saw/shaper and J/P to all separates (All Martin-I'm jealous). Because of the work he was doing with the timelines involved, he had to get separates. (I've seen pictures of your operation and for you also, separates are a must.) Big downside to the saw/shaper is if you are doing a lot of raised panels or complicated shaper setups then the saw/shaper just won't work-provided that the space exists for all separates.

However on the other side I know and have visited with some fantastic craftsman who use a full combo or the saw/shaper and jointer/planer combo. Yeung Chan for example uses a small Felder KF700P and the 16" j/p. Take a look at the work that Kerin Lifland does in Los Angeles with a full combo. Just put kerin and lifland together and add the dot com and you'll see what I mean. These are just a couple of many examples. The driving factor is that their shop space is at a premium and to a lesser extent they can command a longer lead time for their work. So for a one person professional shop with limited space these type machines do offer a viable option. As soon as you add people to the shop then separates is the optimal way to go.
Chris may have already discounted the saw/shaper as not workable for his type of operation. But if he hasn't then maybe this would present a better route for him to take or at least consider.
Good discussion.
take care,
John

[Paul B. Cresti]

Sales pitch hmmmm.....so plain facts are a sales pitch? Name dropping is not a sales pitch? Not sure about Chris but who cares what saw is in the Capital who cares what Yeung Chang or whomever uses. I care more about what is made well, works well and is supported by the company. Oh by the way, when I was out in California last month my family and I went to Disneyland..rumor has it that Mickey Mouse has a MM slider in his shop! talk about cool.

As I stated before nothing I said, other than Lou whom very aptly corrected me ;), was to the best of my knowledge untrue. I personaly still find it odd for a company to have three different types of "non-trunion" saw setups entirely. (700, 900 and the k450) and I am not talking about combos here just sliders. Combos are another world onto themselves. I get the feeling that each particular one has a certain purpose and limitations...while for comparison sake the MM lineup either has the "pillow block" type setup on the small saws or the true trunion on the bigger ones. As the saws get bigger so do the components and the trunions.

Chris ultimately only you can decide what is best for you based upon your needs, expectations, financial constraints and of course your "gut feelings".
Do look at the saws but I suggest not looking for "bling" but look for real substance.

For you viewing pleasure I have attached a few pics of the saw trunion and the entire saw assembly of my MM Formula S35. As you can see the saw assembly is hung on two separate trunions at either side of the cabinet. The opposite side pics are from the inside and show that entire cast iron saw assembly that all the motors are hung off of. Also notice the double steel posts that the saw assembly travels up and down on. The S315WS is similar but smaller and instead of the steel rods it uses dovetailed ways for up and down travel.

[Chris McDowell]

Guys this thread just continues to get better. Paul thanks for the pics. They help a lot.
John, as far as a combination machine goes. They are engineering marvels but not practical for production runs. When I make a set of kitchen cabinets, I could be making as many as 40 doors at one time with ease. Switching back and forth is too time consuming. That's is why I have multiple router stations and a shaper with power feeder.
My main interest in a slider is this. Say I start a job on Monday morning.
I need to rip,crosscut,and dado several sheets of plywood effeciently as possible. I have had bigger kitchens take almost 30 sheets of 3/4" ply.
I believe the slider would help me in four ways.
1. Speed-Everyone I have talked too has agreed any slider is a massive upgrade from my Unisaw and Excalibur.
2. Accuracy--Clearly this level of machinery is on another level of accuracy. Cutting once and knowing it's accurate also adds to the speed.
3. Wear and Tear--By that I mean wear and tear on me not moving sheets as much.
4.Full time dado access--With a slider I can leave my dado on my unisaw and never have to worry did I forget to run just one dado, tear everything down, reset the cutters, run the dado, put the regular blade back on , so on and so on.
A wise man once told me that you can only get so much money for a set of cabinets before you are beyond the customers ability to pay. One of the best ways to make more money is get more work done. That's is what I am trying to do. Raise my hourly shoprate by being more productive per hour.
I appreciate all the help and keep it coming.
Chris

[Justin Nelson]

Man lots of good stuff going on in this thread, sorry I've been away installing a kitchen, this is the first chance I had to revisit.

Chris - I hope you found the info useful, I like to get the good and the bad on something this expensive before I plunk down my money so hopefully this can get you on your way. One more con I forgot to mention was when they went from minimax to technomax it seems they moved the emergency stop to the front panel of the machine, nice to have it so close, but I have hit it twice now accidentaly while I was cutting. Something I will have to get used to.

Paul - no zero clearance insert yet, and I was wondering if you would elaborate on the heater element on the contactor being set to low. The scoring motor seems awfully warm when the trip occurs, warm enough you don't want to keep your hand there very long!!

Cliff - I feel that the Felder design is also a very solid design and yes I agree there is more than one way to skin a cat. It comes down to the Chevy versus Ford debate, pick a side that has the options that pleases YOU most. Details can get debated to death, but at the end of the day I feel that the Technomax OR the Felder would do you an equally good job. Both had details that I like.

Ed - I here you there my fan also came loose. Couldn't figure out the strange noise she was making and finally traced it down to that. BTW that fan cover is sure a good time to get off, isn't it. I ended up using superglue to get mine to stay..............are you listening in Minimax? Thats two cases of the exact same problem.

I will say it again though Chris, it was money well spent. I feel that if Minimax and Felder are your top two, either will make you happy. I read somewhere once that you can pay for a good quality tool and cry once, or buy a cheaper unit and curse everytime you use it. Not the case with either pieces of this equipment, I feel. Good luck with your decision and please lets us know which way you go.

[John Renzetti]

This is a real good discussion. I need to stop by here more often.
Chris from what you've just said about the number of panels you cut, the straight slider is your best bet by far.
You might want to consider a longer slider in the 9-10ft range, even though you'll be cutting the standard sheets. This way you could add air clamps fore and aft that would hold down a sheet that may not be exactly flat. A couple of guys I know that do this a lot say they get a better edge for edgebanding.
Good idea on the use for the Unisaw. One shop I visited and a number I've seen in the trade magaizines, had the Altendorf as the workhorse, but in the corner was a trusty Unisaw or PM66 that they used as a rip saw. They would just shove boards through that thing all day. Very efficient.
I reread the postings on Woodweb and it looks like what some of those guys were telling you was to spend more money and get medium duty saw-the S35, Casolin, Kappa 40 or a good used Martin T-73 or Altendorf F-45. They weren't bashing any particular make just suggesting a heavier saw. One of them, Reilly Moss in CA, has the Martin T-73. The other Phil Tamarkin also in CA went from an old Felder that he bought used. He put an old version Hammer 8ft slider and outrigger on it. I don't think the results were pretty. :) He then bought the used Altendorf F-45 and it has worked great for him.

Get yourself either a Shopcart (the USA version not the import from Hafele) or a scissors lift like from Southworth. These will make getting those panels on the sliding table very easy. It will save your back, plus help keep the slider in shape by not slamming those 100lb sheets on the outrigger and table on a regular basis.

As Lou said, "maybe we should all get a Martin." I've always wanted one of those things. Maybe when I'm in my seventies. I couldn't afford it now. Not the machine...The Divorce!
Well time to get breakfest for the kids. I'm Mr. Mom these past few days.
take care,
John

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

What is a format saw? (and why can't they take a dado setup?)

"Format" is just an expression to refer to a sliding table saw. Many sliders are really panel processing machines that tend to be a tad clumsy when you try to do small work.
The Felder has a series of trademarked names (Felder; Format; & Hammer) All of which are sliders the Hammer line is the single phase model and not meant to be used in a shop where you'll have some crew of brutes slamming hundred pound sheets of MDF on the saw and playing beat the clock & the machine all day all year.

DADO:
European rules prohibit Dados. They just don't allow them. So many sliders have not got an arbor long enough to take a dado.

Felders not only have a long arbor but they sell a really sweet flawlessly perfect dado cutter.

I am pretty certain that you can order a SCMI, Casolin, Martin, or Alterndorf with the longer arbor for dado so long as you take delivery in the USA. I wouldn't be overly surprised if MM wouldn't do it as an option either.

They are all in the business of selling machines so it only makes sense that a few hundred dollars more should get you a longer arbor.

However if you have access to a decent machine shop you can probably have a custom bolt on arbor extension made just to run dados on a MM or other machine.

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

Well,there must always be an oddman out, and here I am.

IF I was setting up a cabinet shop today, I would be doing it with a cnc router.

Not only can you process your panel cuts smoothly and accurately, but you also get the advantage of machining your dadoes, you hinge mounts, your drawer glide pilot holes, and you shelf pin holes if you need them.

We used to process the side panels for a number of smaller cabinet shops on our cnc's and it was poetry in motion.

Yes, the initial investment is more than a slider, but you can do oh so much more.

Doug

[tod evans]

excellent suggestion doug! in this area even the small cabinet shops are investing in a router and quite a few are outsourcing their door and drawer fronts....if a fellow has the business but not the labor this really makes sense.

chris, this is something for you to weigh while you`ve still got money in your pocket....a cnc in todays world can cut,dado-n- line drill plus dovetail your drawer boxes with very little waste....if i built kitchen cabinets this is very likely the way i`d go.....02 tod

[Chris McDowell]

John,
I am looking into the Shopcart or something similar right now. I am also going to ask about the longer slider. Might not need it much but if I did I would always regret not having it.
Most of the worse opinions on the MM were not posted in the public forum, but came from some private E-mails. I should have made that clear.
Appreciate the comments.
Chris

[Chris McDowell]

Just had a thought,although my wife would not believe it, does the tape on the sliding table come in metric or inches. I keep forgetting to ask MM and the only pics I have seen always show the metric.
Thanks, Chris

[Brian Buckley]

Chris,
The tapes on my mm 410 are in inches.

Brian

[Chris McDowell]

I have been looking into doing some outsourcing and think I will on the next kitchen I have lined up. I'm on another monster entertainment center and there is not enough doors on it to justify it.
Tod, I looked into cnc and even talked to some other shops on it and decided it wasn't for me. It looks great at first but then you have a lot of hidden costs and some down time to get everything up to speed. I will keep it in mind for later down the road. I belong to a cooperative that gives me access to cnc owners who would process sheetgoods for me, but shipping would be prohibitive from what little I've seen and it kind of puts me at the mercy of someone else's time schedule.
Thanks for the comments.

[tod evans]

chris, the tapes on my saw are in both silly-meters and inches...tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

John,
I am looking into the Shopcart or something similar right now. I am also going to ask about the longer slider. Might not need it much but if I did I would always regret not having it.
Most of the worse opinions on the MM were not posted in the public forum, but came from some private E-mails. I should have made that clear.
Appreciate the comments.
Chris

Chris,
Let me know what you find out on the ShopCart thing. The Shop Cart USA one is at over 1k and the one on Hafele is at 400....big difference and surley am wondering what the difference is. Oh and all my stuff is in inches....

[Chris McDowell]

I'll be glad to let everybody know what I find out on the carts. I just found another supplier for carts that I am checking into and I will let you know how that turns out.
Talked to Felder today and I have a question for you 315 owners out there. Does your saw have concrete in it for dampening and weight purposes? Never heard that before but I would sure like to know.
As always appreciate the input,
Chris

[Paul B. Cresti]

Chris,
I actually have a Shop Cart on order....they are not in yet, maybe at the end of the month. I am waiting for this job to come and if it is a yes so will the Shop Cart. I was told by them that the Hafele one is a cheap knock-off. I did have some people check the Shop Cart one while they were at IWF and they said they were very impressed by it.

As far as your other statement......well now there is a big chunk of marketing crap! Yes all of my MM machines have chunks and I mean big chunks of concrete in them....so what if it adds additional dampening to it who the blueberries cares! Did you know (at least I think so) that the Martin cabinet are a composite concrete & steel layered system? They have nothing else to pick on, deny the need of a real trunion so they always always fall back on that concrete stuff. I have a question for you to ask your "salesman" ask him if he even knows what a piece of wood is? or if he even knows how to cut a piece of wood! Oh but wait a second they probably have an acessory for that!

[Chris McDowell]

Paul, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. Just checking everything out to see what I was told was the truth. I'll call MM to get more specifics on this.
How about you Felder owners out there, what do your saws use to dampen the vibration and add weight to them? I would like to hear both sides so I can compare apples to apples. Thanks as always,
Chris.

[Ed Kowaski]

My Altendorf F-45 had plenty of concrete in the base too :)

[tod evans]

Talked to Felder today and I have a question for you 315 owners out there. Does your saw have concrete in it for dampening and weight purposes? Never heard that before but I would sure like to know.
As always appreciate the input,
Chris


yup, my saw has a great big chunk of concrete in the bottom of it. never bothered me in the least......tod

[Jay Brewer]

[quote=Chris McDowell]Paul, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. Just checking everything out to see what I was told was the truth. I'll call MM to get more specifics on this.
How about you Felder owners out there, what do your saws use to dampen the vibration and add weight to them? I would like to hear both sides so I can compare apples to apples. Thanks as always,
Chris.[/quote


Hey Chris, I have a Felder K700 w/10' slider for almost a year now and I absolutly love it. I installed the Tiger Rip fencewhen i got the saw. I hear alot about trunnions, all I know is my saw has zero runout and zero vibration. I dont want to get into a Mini Max Felder debate, im sure MiniMax makes a great saw, I choose Felder and am very happy with the decision. Paul commented on Felder accessorys, maybe because Mini Max dosent offer any. I can tell you 3 that are very nice

Outrigger cart is nice if you are cramped for space
Miter Index system is very acurate
Switches in the slider, very nice

[Steve Rowe]

Paul, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. Just checking everything out to see what I was told was the truth. I'll call MM to get more specifics on this.
How about you Felder owners out there, what do your saws use to dampen the vibration and add weight to them? I would like to hear both sides so I can compare apples to apples. Thanks as always,
Chris.

Chris, I have a Felder CF741SP combo. No concrete, no vibration, no problems and works great. In Navy terms, it works fine, lasts a long time and drains to the bilge - life is good.

All this trunnion discussion sounds like a bunch of hooey (sp?) to me and is reminicent of the "my truck is better than your truck" argument. The bottom line is that both the MM and Felder designs have both proven to be solid and reliable. Which one is "better" is soley a matter of personal opinion and preference. If you feel more comfortable with or prefer one over the other, then base your decision on that.

Good luck with your decision.
Steve

[Chris McDowell]

Thanks everybody, I am not really upset about the concrete. It was just something that I had never heard before and wanted some confirmation on. Making arrangements to go look at a Felder 700S. I hope to be able to do the same with the 315 in the near future.
From all my research it looks like it comes down to this. Both saws will do the job I want it to do. One is a little fancier and the other just a more basic model. I want to ask another question about another saw someone told me about, but I think I'll start another thread for that one.
If anyone owning either the Felder or the MM has anything they want to add to the mix I'd sure be glad to read it.
Chris

[John Renzetti]

Hi Was away a few days on a mission and hand no connection.
There's a number of manufacturers that add concrete blocks to the bottom of their machines. It's an inexpensive way to add weight and some dampening capabilities. Others like Sac, Casolin, Felder don't. I'll have to check with a buddy that had an F-45 but I don't think there was concrete blocks in his newer saw. If you have a saw that weighs say 1500lbs with no concrete, then that means the weight comes from the steel and cast iron. If another saw weighs 1300lbs and then has 400lbs of concrete added, then while the saw does weigh 1700lbs and the concrete does add the dampening the saw is still the same which means the steel etc has to be lighter.
Now don't get Martin's pattened process mixed up with just putting a concrete block at the bottom of the machine. That's like saying that Marin's slider system uses ball bearings and so does this one so they are the same. Martin's steel frame allows for a masonary mixture to be placed inside and it forms a unified structure. It's not like they pull the Ready Mix truck up to the saw and pour a yard of concrete into the body of the saw. This process is very expensive to do. I believe the Martin saw because of this composite steel and masonary type frame weighs in the range of 4500lbs.

As for the Shopcarts vs the Hafele, I found the Hafele to be terrible. A friend has one and a few years ago brought it up to my shop so that we could load a bunch of cherry veneer I was cutting for him onto my saw a lot easier. The mdf veneer weighs about 100lbs a sheet. The Hafele cart couldn't handle more than 2 sheets. It was awkward to use and I didn't think it was well constructed. This drove me to the USA made Shopcart. I've piled up to 10 panels on it and it handled it. So Paul if the job comes in, get the Shopcart.
take care,
John

[Ed Kowaski]

Hi John, I didn't say the F-45 had a concrete block in the base, I said it had plenty of concrete in the base. It's not that obvious but it's there.

It's my opinion that the concrete is for counter balance rather then damping. I've done long rips on 1 1/8 5 x 12 chip board. Always amazed me the saw didn't fall over with the 12' slider extended all the way with that kind of load on it. ;)

All in all I think it's a pretty clever solution. I love old arn but I can't argure with the engineering that goes into the better lines of modern industrial machines. Since I'n not collecting old machines, not that I wouldn't like to, rather buying machines to get a high quality job done quickly and repeatably new gets the nod in most cases.

Thanks for the heads up on the Hafele cart!

Regards,
Ed

[Chris McDowell]

John, I wondered why you hadn't chimed in lately. Glad you are back. I would be interested in anything you could find out about the concrete. I wasn't very happy about it at first and I had your reasoning. If concrete is used to add weight, then there must be less steel or cast. I know I for sure want to look at one in person and decide for myself.
Chris

[Ian Barley]

I cannot see an issue with whether the concrete is added as ballast or is part of the structure. Including more steel or iron than is needed just to make a good massive structure would only make sense if the cost of steel was lower than the cost of other dense materials. When a boat has ballast to maintain stability it is not, for that reason necesarily, a bad boat neither is that the case with any tool. If mass is an important characteristic in and of itself then as long as performance isn't sacrificed what does it matter how the mass is achieved.

Ian (who wouldn't know what a trunnion was if it was served to him on a plate)

[Joe Jensen]

Well,there must always be an oddman out, and here I am.

IF I was setting up a cabinet shop today, I would be doing it with a cnc router.

Not only can you process your panel cuts smoothly and accurately, but you also get the advantage of machining your dadoes, you hinge mounts, your drawer glide pilot holes, and you shelf pin holes if you need them.

We used to process the side panels for a number of smaller cabinet shops on our cnc's and it was poetry in motion.

Yes, the initial investment is more than a slider, but you can do oh so much more.

Doug

Doug, you are spot on. I toyed with the idea of going pro about a year ago, but with the housing slowdown here in Phoenix the timing isn't great. I found I could get a great Onsrud system with software ($125K of capital) for about $2K a month. Seemed to me like the way to go. I was actually looking to do custom entry doors, and that router could cut all the parts for an entry door in like 10 min. It was amazing. The downside was the steep learning curve for the software. Otherwise, a fairly unskilled operator could keep the machine busy. I'd definitely look into leasing a Router. In my research it seemed that the training and support from the local dealer was the most important part of the purchase decision.