The next round of research for energy savings....

[Dennis Peacock]

Well, the LOML and I have been talking things over. Due to the ever increasing electrical power rates and I know for a fact that our current A/C unit for the house is the pits for SEER ratings. A guy I work with had a heat pump system 2 years ago that's supposed to be so effecient that it far exceeds the SEER ratings by so much that it's not really rated. I believe it's a geothermal heat pump unit and it's also my understanding that these babies really cost some serious money. I believe that the guy at work stated that his was around $13K installed. Are these units so much better that the cost would be offset by long term energy savings on the cost of cooling and heating? Remember, I primarily heat with wood in the winter, but my cooling cost are very high and our cooling months are longer that the heating season.

What are your thoughts on this? Wouldn't it be just as good to get a Trane or Carrier unit that has an SEER rating of something like 17 and expect the energy cost savings to be about the same? I really don't know, but I'm hoping what someone here can help shed some light on this subject.

[Tyler Howell]

Hey Dennis,
I here good things about the Geothermal units. Big bucks is right.
but how about all the rest of the stuff.

Windows
doors
calking
insullation.
sealing outlets and switch boxes.Up here in the tundra you can just about see the dollars float out of the house during heating season when there's a leak. High efficiency equipment is the last thing we do up here.
I understand the payback is slow and repairs high for those systems too.
I know they are great conversation pieces you can show all your friends.
A buddy of mine draws off the lake for the heat pump. He eventually had to suppliment with LP gas.

Good luck, anxious to hear other opinions.

If the outer envelope is well sealed then

[Terre Hooks]

A geo-thermal heat pump is expensive because of the install. If it cost $13k, I don't think you can amortize that in your lifetime. There's 10-12 of them around here, mostly funded by the local power provider.

They aren't anything fancy. Just a regular water source heat pump with the addition of a series of pipes underground filled with water.


I couldn't justify a $7-800 increase from a 10 SEER (no longer available) to a 13.

How are you gonna do it with another $10,000?

The proper way to save money on HVAC is to have a properly sized unit, ductwork and supply/return grilles. It's a SYSTEM. 95% of homebuilders and residential HVAC contractors install a sadly undersized unit that struggles to keep a home halfway comfortable in June, July and August. If they would upsize most homes with another 1/2 to 1 ton of cooling, the power bills would decrease.

[Dennis Peacock]

Terre,

I understand very well what you are saying. But the boat I'm in right now is the aging A/C unit we have that was the lowest end of the A/C units when the builder built the house. We bought this house 2nd hand and have done several things to improve it's overall effeciency. What we are looking at now, as long as the current unit stays working, is replacing these very cheap windows with high effeciency, Low E windows. We KNOW that this has to be done as we can feel a breeze in the kitchen every winter when the wind blows even with all the windows closed. I just have a tendency to start researching and getting educated on something far in advance of when I may need to move on an item such as replacing an HVAC unit. I also understand that my duct work will probably need replacing or fixing. From all I've seen and fixed on this house, the builder did the absolute minimum to get this house done and sold. But dont' get me started on that. I did have the house inspected prior to the purchase, but many of these things we don't find out until the deal is done and a year of living in the house passed.

I'm just trying to get smarter about HVAC and energy costs/savings so I can become a better educated consumer for when the time becomes critical to move on replacement. ;)

[Art Mulder]

Dennis... I'm a born researcher also. And I think it is a good thing. You see, I've heard just about the opposite of Terre -- at least with regards to furnaces. What I've read in several different articles, is that HVAC people tend to put in over-sized furnaces. It isn't always their fault, sometimes the homeowner insists. At first glance, they think, "Hey, I want a more powerfull unit, so I'm never cold." But the problem is then that the unit cycles on and off too much. It's so powerfull it is just getting going when the thermostat kicks it off. According to these articles, a furnace really needs to have longer and less frequent cycling, in order to run at the most efficient.

Now, does the same apply to A/C ?? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.

And ditto with opinions on slapped-together subdivisions. I fantasize about building my own place -- SIP's all the way, with 3' overhangs. And also some large trees nearby to shade the place in summer.

So, keep it up with the research! But in the meantime, plant a shade tree also! :D

...art

[Spence DePauw]

No personal data, but a friend's brother here in Illinois has a geothermal unit, in new construction. Cost in the range you mention. He's single, so not a lot of other loads. His electric bills this summer have averaged ~$25/mo. I don't vouch for that, but the conversation I got the info in wasn't one that would lead me to suspect bragging, or selling... I'd assume that gas is used for hot water, cooking etc, but don't know for sure.

Spence

[John Daugherty]

My wife and I just finished our house. The house is 2100 sq/ft on the main level and 2100 in an unfinished basement. Both levels are heated and cooled. Energy efficiency was my main goal when we decided to build. The main floor walls are SIPS. The basement walls are superior walls. The windows are all low-e argon filled and meet the energy star guidelines. The doors also meet energy star guidelines.
I was very anal about sealing around all openings. I invested in a foam gun and several cans of foam. I sprayed every crack that I could find. I had the band around the basement sprayed with foam by a contractor. The roof is a standard truss. I had R-40 blown into the attic.
I put in a Carrier Infinity system for the HVAC. It’s an 18 SEER dual fuel unit. This means that it heats with a heat pump until the temp gets to about 35. It then will change over to gas. The heating unit is 96% efficient. I also had an energy recovery ventilator installed. When my HVAC contractor calculated the unit size he said that my unit was about 1.5 to 2 tons smaller than a stick built house.

We just got our first electric bill with us in the house for the entire billing period (31 days). It was 63 dollars.

[Norman Hitt]

My wife and I just finished our house. The house is 2100 sq/ft on the main level and 2100 in an unfinished basement. Both levels are heated and cooled. Energy efficiency was my main goal when we decided to build. The main floor walls are SIPS. The basement walls are superior walls. The windows are all low-e argon filled and meet the energy star guidelines. The doors also meet energy star guidelines.
I was very anal about sealing around all openings. I invested in a foam gun and several cans of foam. I sprayed every crack that I could find. I had the band around the basement sprayed with foam by a contractor. The roof is a standard truss. I had R-40 blown into the attic.
I put in a Carrier Infinity system for the HVAC. It’s an 18 SEER dual fuel unit. This means that it heats with a heat pump until the temp gets to about 35. It then will change over to gas. The heating unit is 96% efficient. I also had an energy recovery ventilator installed. When my HVAC contractor calculated the unit size he said that my unit was about 1.5 to 2 tons smaller than a stick built house.

We just got our first electric bill with us in the house for the entire billing period (31 days). It was 63 dollars.

John, to put this in better perspective for everyone, (since the cost per kwh varies so much around the country), what did your bill show that you are paying per kwh on that bill? As a side note, my current electric bill showed our current rate at $00.152/kwh, (which varies NOW and is higher for the main HOT months and the main COLD months).

[Jim Becker]

Dennis, you have to look at the payback time over the actual projected life of the new system. There is a big jump in price when you start getting up to the very high SEER ratings, yet the system life is about the same...10-15 years typically. Sometimes a "normal" system is actually more cost effective in those terms.

[Bob Aliano]

Dennis, when we bought our house it was all electric and had a heat pump heating-cooling system. Everything was OK until it got really cold out, then an auxilialry electric heater in the air handler kicked in. Our electric bills would go out of sight during the colder months of winter. We have since switched to gas for heating and cooking and are not paying nearly as much as with the heat pump. If your temperatures don't get much below 32 F in the winter you might be OK. I'd talk to the energy company and a couple of heaating contractors first.

[Al Willits]

You live south of Tyler and I, so a higher seer rating will pay for its self, 13k for a heat pump is insane, your never gonna get your monies worth, considering they are a higher maintance item than just a standard A/C unit.
Also you can't just upsize a unit and expect better results, A/C units use a great part of their colling power removing humidity from the air, to large a unit will leave ya will cool wet air, not good.
System are rated in tonnage or BTU's and each area probably has a reccomended tonnage for the house it's trying to cool, most salesmen will have a heat loss program and should be able to help ya.
Least they do here in Minn....:)

There are several decent manufactur's of A/C units, where I work sells Carrier (same as Bryant and a few others) and Ruud (same as Rheem) and my next AC will be a Ruud, fwiw

I have the feeling if I lived down where your at, a 17 seer A/Cc or greater would be my choice.

Al

[Cecil Arnold]

Dennis, I don't know how humid it gets there, but in the high humidity we have here a 17 SEER unit would not run enough to take the humidity out of the air. That, as you can guess, makes it feel much warmer than it would be with dryer air. I don't know how much you have done to improve things, but if you don't have trees overhanging the house you might want to consider a spray on radiant barrier in the attic, ridge vents with additional soffet vents, and there is a high-e film you can put on the existing windows or you might think about solar screens.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dennis......I'm with Tyler this time. When I built my shop I installed R-19 in the walls and R-40 in the ceiling. It was wrapped with a Tyvek type material and has insulated doors and windows. I put 4 mil plastic underneath the wall and ceiling coverings (plywood and wallboard) and sealed the openings in the outlet and switch boxes after pulling the wire. This afternoon I went in there, it was 96 degrees outside temp and 81 degrees inside the shop. I've seen the temperature differential in the 18 degree range.

As stated, it'll take forever to get the payback on your geothermal unit ESPECIALLY if your house is leaky! I'd put in some insulated windows, doors, seal around outlets and seal the outlet boxes. After you make your house as thermal efficient as is reasonably possible .....then I'd consider putting in a normal heating/ac unit that is properly sized for your house. Don't forget to make sure the roof is correctly vented and maybe consider a vent fan to remove heat from the attic during the hot months.

Good luck with your decision.

[John Daugherty]

Norman,
My current rate is 0.1029/kwh

[Karl Laustrup]

Dennis, I like you am looking for every way to save a buck or two, especially on energy consumption. When I had our house built this past winter I looked into the geo-thermal way of cooling and heating.

First, cost was prohibitive when figuring in initial cost versus savings. It would have taken more than 10 years to payback the initial investment. I was also told that while the geo-thermal would do fine in the summer, I would have to have a supplemental heat source for the winter. This further took it out of contention as a viable solution.

Because your cooling season is longer and hotter than ours, I would personally opt for as efficient an a/c unit as is resonable, keeping in mind that the units initial cost goes up considerably for each 1 SEER increase. I opted for a 13 SEER, which is the minimum now, and put the money into a more efficient heating unit.

Finally, I would do all the things mentioned here already. Windows, which are expensive but will serve you well for many years. I wouldn't scrimp here at all. Pella, Eagle, Marvin, Andersen come to mind.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Karl

[Dennis Peacock]

Norman,
My current rate is 0.1029/kwh

Shoot....I'd LOVE to be paying that rate per kwh....I'm paying over twice that rate. :(

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

My neighbor did a heat pump and he loves it.

[Frank Fusco]

When we bought our house four years ago it came with a Water Furnace ground-source furnace/AC unit. The house has excellent insulation and a couple other energy saving features (2 skylights, etc.). The hot water heater we installed is a Marathon, supposedly the most efficient one on the market. It is fed through the furnace. In the summer the water (from our well) is tempered (up from about 50 degrees to about 75) before reaching the heater. In the winter it is pre-heated. So hot water expense is negligible. The furnace/AC is very-very efficient. Our entire house is electric (range, dryer, well, everything) and our levelized year-round bill is $120.00 a month. Compared to our $300 to $400 summer AC bills in our previous house, it is like someone is giving us money. Granted the initial expense is high. You need to determine how long you will live in your current place and make a decision from there. For us, when we move it will be feet first.

[Wes Bischel]

Dennis,
Good luck with the furnace - I've just gotten into the replacement window search. I find it's easy to identify the super duper best - it's harder to calculate the cost/benefit/payback on these things for ones specific application. (especially when your dealing with a 50 year old masonry house:rolleyes: )

Hope the answers come easy,

Wes

[Eddie Watkins]

Dennis,
I had a heat pump in a house several years ago and it certainly helped with the heat but it had no effect on cooling. It became an A/C unit in the summertime, no better or worse than any other unit. I'm not familiar at all with the new geothermal units so I don't know if they actually help in the summer or not. If you are only going to benefit from the unit 3-4 months out of the year, it seems it would take it would take a while to get payback on $13,000. THe difference between a geothermal and a regular heat pump is probably not that much. If my units went out today in our climate I might put heat pumps back in simply because gas prices are going up faster than the cost of electricity since a lot of elctricity comes from other sources of energy such as coal or nuclear( probably in your case). I doubt that I would spring for the extra bucks to go geothermal. I am planning on replacing a sliding glass patio door with a set of french doors, though, because the sliders are so enrgy inefficient and they are virtually impossible to seal.

Eddie

[Ken Garlock]

Dennis, there is a lot of good advice here, and some I would take with a grain of salt.

The seer rating is kind of like the sticker mpg numbers on cars. With a hope and prayer, going down hill, you might hit it. But since all the makers lie the same, you can use it for a relative comparison.

Second the return on investment for geothermal systems is around 7 years, and might be less as the price of electricity increases.

A good geothermal system will have an seer of around 20 to 22. In the heating season, it will have a COP of around 4. COP, coefficient of performance, is the ratio of energy gained divided by energy spent. Simply stated, in a geothermal system you get around 4 times the energy out of the system than you spend making the making the heat/energy to heat the house.

Our single story house is around 3300 sq ft. It has 8" SIP panels around the exterior walls. The ceiling insulation is 4" of Icynene foam with 12" of blown in fiberglass. We have low-E Marvin windows throughout the the house.

Our HVAC system was installed when we built the house. It consists of a 5 ton Water Furnace geothermal compressor, and a matching Trane heat exchanger(evaporator). There are 4 300 ft. deep wells buried in the front yard We also installed an Energy Recovery Ventilation system that keeps fresh air coming into the house.

We do not have natural gas on our road, and I didn't want to be tied to a propane tank, regardless of what Hank Hill says.;) So we went with an all electric home. We have a Marathon fiberglass hot water tank for the kitchen and laundry. We have a 36 KW demand electric water heater for the bath rooms in the bedroom areas.

This summer our electric bill was the highest we have ever had, but also the cost of electricity is also the highest at a little over .12/kWh. Contributing to the bill is the fact and my wife likes to keep her TV lounge cold enough to hang meat, about 72. The main part of the house is 74. The temp in our backyard was hitting regularly in the 104 to 108 range in July and August. There are no shade trees around the house. These conditions resulted in an electric bill that just broke the $400 mark for the first time.

BTW, we do not have any supplemental resistor heating elements in the house HVAC system. It is 100% geothermal.

Would I put in a geothermal system again, absolutely, without hesitation.

[Frank Fusco]

I don't speek COP or SEER. ;) But, I do know our house, a hillside ranch, is about 1500 sq. ft up and 3/4 finished and heated down, the other 1/4 is my shop, an extra long one car garage and it is also heated. After that the numbers are goobledegook to me. But, the number I do understand is $120.00 a month total TOTAL energy bill.

[Robert Mickley]

While I don't no diddly about ac or heating numbers, I can tell you this much. In your search for windows DON'T buy triple pane windows, The whole trick is the amount of air gap, the more air gap the more it will insulate. If you windows have a 1/2 inch gap and you add in a third pa0 eyou just lost a 1/8 inch of insulation. DON'T buy gas filled windows you only gain about 1/2 of an R value and the gas leaks out after about 5 years. The only reason I know these things is my wife works for big glass comapny and she is the one putting the gas in those windows every day. Theres a pretty good chance if you buy a window from pella or anderson they made the glass part of it up. I'm also of the firm belief that closing a house up too tight is a bad thing, yeah it saves you money but your not getting any fresh air into the house. Which in my opinion is a bad thing.

[Steve Schoene]

A little finance: If a higher efficiency HVAC system saves $100 per month, or $1,200 annually, this savings through the end of time is worth about $30,000. (This assumes 3% inflation and a 7% discount rate.)

So what does the higher efficiency system cost. Assumethe geothermal heat pump ADDS $13,000 to the cost, it has a replacement cycle of 15 years, so that every 15 years a new system costing the same $13,000 adjusted for 3%inflation is installed. The equivalent present cost of that lifetime system is approximately $28,525.

Of course, this is much too long a horizon, but a similar comparison occurs if you just consider savings over the initial installation, comparing to initial cost plus the cost of the first replacement. The example also depends crucially on the amount of savings being as assumed. ADDED POINT: These calculations do suggest that the higher cost is worthwhile if there is sufficient ability to finance this and all the other projects that provide savings over time, but if that isn't true there could well be things that should be done first--like adding insulation or replacing windows.

As far as other issues: The consensus today is that the ideal is to make the house as tight as possible, BUT provide whole house ventilation, with appropriate heat exchangers to make that ventilation more energy efficient. This also helps control the source of the ventilation. You don't want the system to pull moist make up air through insulation, or out of radon infiltrated crawlspaces, as examples.

Yes, it is at least as much a problem to have too large an AC as an too large a furnace. In particular, the AC doesn't remove enough moisture from the air if it only runs a small amount of the time, leaving a clammy feeling as well as other potential problems.

[Peter Gavin]

When considering geothermal, you also have to factor in the effect on the resale value of your home. If it saves you money now and the full cost would be recoverable when you sell your home (wheneer that me be) then that shoud be factored in as well.

Peter

[Brian Hale]

We've had a geo-thermal unit for 4 1/2 years now and we're quite pleased with it.

The savings can best be illustrated this way; Before we got it installed we had no A/C and oil heat. Back then, the annual cost for electric and heat is almost exactly the same as as the electric heating and A/C for the following 2 years with the geo-thermal unit. In other words we got free A/C with the geo-thermal unit. We also up-sized the unit so it's bigger than it needs to be. The house is ~4800 sq ft.

Granted, when SWMBO built this house she used 2x8 wall studs filled with pink insulation, 1/2" plywood sheeting and 1.5" R Max foam insulation and house wrap under the cedar siding. The windows are high end Pellas and the house design makes use of passive solar heating. All in all, very energy efficient for this area of the country.

If you can swing the cost, i believe you'll be quite happy.

Brian :)

[Frank Hagan]

One consideration is the potential for tax credits that may make some options more economical:




Home Energy Efficiency Improvement Tax Credits
Consumers who purchase and install specific products, such as energy-efficient windows, insulation, doors, roofs, and heating and cooling equipment in the home can receive a tax credit of up to $500 beginning in January 2006.

The EPACT also provides a credit equal to 30% of qualifying expenditures for purchase for qualified photovoltaic property and for solar water heating property used exclusively for purposes other than heating swimming pools and hot tubs. The credit shall not exceed $2000.

Improvements must be installed in or on the taxpayer’s principal residence in the United States. Home improvement tax credits apply for improvements made between January 1, 2006 and December 31, 2007.

[Dennis Peacock]

Thanks Everyone....now with all this good info.....I've moved on to researching windows for the house. We have a brick house, single story, with metal frame "cheap" windows. I don't want to buy windows that are expensive just because they are "Pella" or "Anderson", but I do want to buy some good windows to install in the house. Recommendations? Oh, BTW, please keep in mind that "I" will be installing the windows to help cut costs. Any pointers on windows that I can research?:)

[Frank Fusco]

Thanks Everyone....now with all this good info.....I've moved on to researching windows for the house. We have a brick house, single story, with metal frame "cheap" windows. I don't want to buy windows that are expensive just because they are "Pella" or "Anderson", but I do want to buy some good windows to install in the house. Recommendations? Oh, BTW, please keep in mind that "I" will be installing the windows to help cut costs. Any pointers on windows that I can research?:)

Yep. Get help. We had a window replaced recently, two guys worked hard doing it. At times one was inside, the other out. I didn't do that much pricing but went with a local company that had a long-standing good reputation.

[Jeff Cybulski]

Dennis - I have a geo-thermal unit only because it came with the house. It cools and heats fine here in Tulsa, but you would probably be better off sealing the house and going with a high SEER unit. I'm told from the original owner that it cost $10k in 1992 to install. Geo-thermals still have a compressor but no condenser/evaporator like a traditional HVAC, so maintenance is nil except for replacing the return filter. One of the benifits is free hot water in the summer but it would take you a long time to recoup your initial investment. I do not have gas on my property and am on a electric co-op. My bills in the summer are around $210 to cool a 3100 sq/ft home plus I run a pond filter 24/7. My Kw/hr charge is $.067

Jeff

[Mark Pruitt]

Thanks Everyone....now with all this good info.....I've moved on to researching windows for the house. We have a brick house, single story, with metal frame "cheap" windows. I don't want to buy windows that are expensive just because they are "Pella" or "Anderson", but I do want to buy some good windows to install in the house. Recommendations? Oh, BTW, please keep in mind that "I" will be installing the windows to help cut costs. Any pointers on windows that I can research?:)
Dennis,
Most of this discussion has been stuff that I have no expertise in. But, I can tell you this from experience. Our house in Birmingham was a brick house with metal frame windows. Two of those windows--the ones in the kitchen--we replaced with double-pane windows. Can't remember the brand; they weren't cheap. A little over $1000 including installation. But I can tell you, when the wind blew against the side of the house, I absolutely could not feel a thing coming through those double-pane windows. Our ambition was to do the whole house eventually, but a wonderful job offer 550 miles away relieved us of that anticipated expense.:) The house we now own is outfitted with all double-pane windows and sealed well. The wind here in winter can kick up like nobody's business and makes even the ice sickles shiver outside, but inside it's nice and toasty and when you're standing right at the window, you feel nothing. In summer, we lose far less "conditioned air" than we did in the old house.

I guess that the thing I'm hearing several guys here saying, which I tend to believe strongly, is that it has as much--or more--to do with weatherproofing than with what type of unit you use for climate control. I think that if you focus on sealing and insulating (and attic ventilation as necessary), you'll do as much for yourself in the way of savings as you will by selecting the "right" replacement unit. Just my .02

Mark

[Dennis Peacock]

Great info here folks. Thanks for all the help....but don't stop now, as we are all learning / sharing info for energy cost savings. I'm interested in replacing these yucky windows we have with more effecient windows. Everyone around here that has done the window replacement thing? Says that the savings are directly reflected on the very next month utility bill. I like the very thought of that. :)

[JayStPeter]

I've replaced windows in 2 houses. In both cases it was a huge improvement. The first house was a '50s house with original wood frame windows. I had them replaced with the cheapest replacement double pane windows I could find. The 2nd was a '70s house with cheap metal framed windows. I replaced them with Anderson Renewal windows.
The Anderson Renewals are real nice. But, I still used some cheaper windows in the garage, laundry room, and some of the back of the house. They aren't cheap.
My recommendation is to have them installed. Those guys come and knock them out in a day. They cover all the trim work with Al to make the windows maintenance free. And, in both cases, they did a good job. In the case of the Anderson Renewals, they don't sell the windows without installation. In my estimation I paid about $30 a window for installation. This is based on what similar replacement windows sell for at the Borg vs. what I paid per window.
Anyhow, most vinyl replacement windows are similar. The Anderson Renewals are composite and impressed me enough to get for the house I expected to be in for a long time.

Jay

[Ben Grunow]

Dennis- I have seen wood jamb windows (standard double hung and casement design found everywhere) and steel sash and frame windows made basically from 1/8" steel angles and T sections. All of these that I have seen are casements and the steel you see on the inside is the same as the outside (in other words, no thermal break). Is this what you have?

[W Craig Wilson]

Dennis,
I happen to work for a large HVAC controls company. One of my coworkers, a registered Professional Engineer (PE) had a geothermal system installed when he built his house 25 years ago. At that time the technology was very new in residential installations and there were a lot of rules of thumb about sizing and technique that proved to be just flat wrong. Anyway, when I asked my friend if he would go that way again, he said only because of his particular interest in HVAC systems. Given the balance of system complexity of a proper installation and re-salability of the property versus a conventional high efficiency system , he would recommend against.

[Terry Hatfield]

Yo,

Coupla thoughts. Our old condensor unit shot craps this summer. HVAC dude/buddy of mine, had a line on a new left over10 SEER unit. $1100.00 installed. He checked over the furnace/inside workings and said they appeared to be just fine and replacing the condensor unit only would be cost effective. Electricity usage was about 15% less that last year. I thought that was pretty good considering it was hotter this year and I actually did run the a/c in the shop some vs last year when I did not. Won't be but a coupla more years and it'll pay for itself.

Now...'bout them winders. I replaced the old aluminum drafty junkers a couple years ago with new shiny vinyl, ecoated, argon filled ones. What a difference that made!!!! It is worth it. IIRC, the windows themselves were around $3500 ($350 for a 5/0 X 6/0 double) or so and the install was free....cause I did it. Replaced all of them in 2 days with the help of a buddy. It was nasty work but nothing to difficult. If yours are all in brick...that are aren't they???...it will actually be easier than if they are in siding. The brick gives you sumthin' to pry against to get the flanges out. Replacements got the flanges cut off and screwed thru the frames into the house framing and caulked up from there. Local windiw dude/buddy of mine hooked me up. He came out and measured all the openings and each window was custom for each opening. A very, very worthwhile project. Sure helps with the heating/cooling and they are WAY quieter that the old ones. Truly amazin' really how much quieter the house is now....well...when they are closed anyhow.:D

I'll even volunteer to help ya. Man, I'll volunteer for anything apparently. :D

t

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis- I have seen wood jamb windows (standard double hung and casement design found everywhere) and steel sash and frame windows made basically from 1/8" steel angles and T sections. All of these that I have seen are casements and the steel you see on the inside is the same as the outside (in other words, no thermal break). Is this what you have?

Ben,

I don't know what these are other than very junky metal frame windows. The leak and you can feel the wind blowing in the kitchen in the winter with all the windows closed. :rolleyes:

[Dennis Peacock]

Now...'bout them winders. I replaced the old aluminum drafty junkers a couple years ago with new shiny vinyl, ecoated, argon filled ones. What a difference that made!!!! It is worth it. IIRC, the windows themselves were around $3500 ($350 for a 5/0 X 6/0 double) or so and the install was free....cause I did it. Replaced all of them in 2 days with the help of a buddy. It was nasty work but nothing to difficult. If yours are all in brick...that are aren't they???...it will actually be easier than if they are in siding. The brick gives you sumthin' to pry against to get the flanges out. Replacements got the flanges cut off and screwed thru the frames into the house framing and caulked up from there. Local windiw dude/buddy of mine hooked me up. He came out and measured all the openings and each window was custom for each opening. A very, very worthwhile project. Sure helps with the heating/cooling and they are WAY quieter that the old ones. Truly amazin' really how much quieter the house is now....well...when they are closed anyhow.:D

I'll even volunteer to help ya. Man, I'll volunteer for anything apparently. :D

t

T,

I'll have to talk to you more about them thar winders. I'm researching windows for now and checking prices where I can to cover all my options. I will prolly take you up on the volunteer help there buddy. After all, how else would I git-r-done without some hep. ;)

[Terry Hatfield]

d,

Always here for ya brother....even to help change winders. :D

Vinyl Window Technologies out of Tennessee is the manufacturer of our windows. Here's their site. Lots of good general info on the subject there.

http://www.viwintech.com/index.cfm

t

[Scott Coffelt]

Get you some of that smoke stuff and walk around the house checking for leaks, I bet you'll find tons. Then work on fixing them first, also you lose a ton through the ceiling. May want to double check the amount of insulation in the attic too. Good luck.

[Eddie Watkins]

Dennis,
I've spent the summer remodeling some rent houses to sell and one thing I have done in every house is replace the windows. The first window will probably take you about 2 hours to do, figuring everything out as you go. After the first one each one you will get a little faster. By the last one you will be able to do it welll under an hour. I've been putting in the "nothing special" windows from the box store, with double pane and thermal break but I would probably upgrade for my own house. The way I do it is remove all glass then tear the frame out with a crowbar. I also tear the sheetrock off the inside of the window and take out the window sill. I stick the window in from the inside then re-sheetrock around the window and reinstall the sill. It seems to make the finished product look a little cleaner to me. When measuring, measure the opening from the outside in three places and allow about 1/4" less than the smallest measurement when ordering the windows. I allow 1/8" and have to do a little trimming on the window sometimes if the opening isn't square. I managed to get a really nice grinder out of the deal, though:D You can get them installed for around $30-40 per window but I wasn't real happy with what I saw so I have chosen to do it myself. Installers seem to think caulk is the solution for the winodw not fitting right. Just my thoughts worth what you paid for them.

Eddie

[Chip Charnley]

$13K is not insane. It's been a couple of years since I did the research so I won't try to quote numbers but Geothermal does pay for itself in 4-6 years if you can afford the initial installation. Note that it is both heat and cool in that it generates a pretty steady temp. Yes, you have to boost it for heat in the winter months to get it into the 70's but the cost is much less than the fuel cost to keep ahead of winter temps north of the Mason-Dixon line. Go find some knowledgeable references on the operating costs of geothermal and figure it out. I know the gut reaction to the installation cost is it won't be worth it but it does work out. In addition, when it comes time to replace a worn-out unit, you are back in relatively the same ball park as replacing an A/C-furnace as much of the initial installation cost is installing the in-ground loops which almost never have to be replaced.

The ONLY reason I don't have geothermal in my house today is that I could not fund the initial installation cost.

Chip Charnley

[Terry Hatfield]

Eddie,

The replacement windows we used for our house did not require any mod of the jamb at all and didn't even disturb the sheetrock. That made the install really sweet once I figured out how to get the old ones out. Once the new ones were installed a bead of caulk....a small one...:D ...and a bit of paint touchup was all that was required on the inside. Outside sealed to the brick with clear silicone caulk and that was that. My only regret is that I wish I had done it long before I did.

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[Joe Pelonio]

What did all you guys do with the old windows? I changed them all on one house. When done I tried to recycle them. One place would only take glass if broken up and boxed and would not take the frames. Another would take the frames but not the glass. I had to break all of them out,
box up the glass, and go to two places to get rid of them. Somehow managed it without getting cut up.

[Terry Hatfield]

Joe,

I just took mine to the land fill. It was a heck of a mess!!!!

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