table saw advice? power vs. transportability

[john martin]

Finally renting a house with a basement, so it's time to get a TS. I've lurked enough to know to get the best I can (power and cast iron). But I expect I'll be somewhat unsettled for a few more years (getting married, new job, etc.), so I think I might need to prepare for renting places that don't have 220. I may also have to transport whatever I get a few times until we get settled. This severely limits my cabinet saw options, right?

The other thing is that I suspect this will always only be a hobby for me, so I won't need 12-hour-a-day production-quality stuff.

With the above in mind, should I get a:
cheap (used) "disposable" TS and suffer with it -- until I get settled,
decent job-site saw until I get settled, then get a cabinet (and keep the job-site for remote-site work),
good circular saw and EZ, and/or compound mitre saw -- until I get settled,
some hybrid like the Craftsman 22124 (which I understand surpasses anti-Craftsman sentiments),
other ideas?I consider myself very-much a newbie, but was spoiled enough with six months of cabinet-making classes at Minneapolis Community Technical College (years ago) to know that there's significant advantage in good tools.

many thanks in advance,
-john

[Jim Becker]

John, welcome to the posting side of the 'Creek!!

Whatever you do...avoid "cheap/disposable" at all costs. 'Better to wait a little longer and get a quality tool, no matter what the format...much less expensive in so many ways in the long term. You have some good alternatives in your list...it will be helpful to know about the kind of projects you think you will be working on so folks can best comment on them.

Personally, I feel one of the hybrid-type saws, such as the C-Man, Dewalt, Jet, etc. are probably the best bet on your list if you want a table saw format. They offer decent power and capability for the money. If you will largely be working with sheet goods, than the E-Z or other guided saw system (I'm a black and green fan there... ;) ) is a really good choice and very portable. Having both a TS and a guided system is nirvana... :)

[glenn bradley]

Think about the type of stuff you want to make. Cabinets, sofa tables, candle holders, ??? I have a 1950's Craftsman (Emerson) 10" TS (113-27520) that is quite servicable. I noticed one today on craig's list for $75 with a shopmade rolling stand. If you only pay that kind of money for a saw you can afford a couple bolt on improvements to get you by for quite a while. When you're done with it, sell it to the next guy in your situation.

While I was restoring the saw I did some research and there are a surprising number of these or a close cousin still in service. Kinda like a 1980 Toyota Corolla; you still see them on the road because they accidently did everything right on that year/model.

If you're good for the dough for a hybrid, I'd say get it but you're talking 400 pounds-plus to move around. If you want a good job saw that you'll probably never sell, my brother picked up the Bosch 4000-09 with the gravity rise stand and it is sweet! About $400 - $450 street price.

I couldn't do it but some folks swear by the EZ smart systems . . . but do the math on ALL the parts you'll need to make you happy before you abandon a TS. They do add up. Just my two cents worth and probably over-priced.

[Burt Waddell]

John,

I have 2 unisaws, 2 jobsite table saws, 4 miter saws and a couple of EZ Smart sets. My recommendation for your needs is the EZ Smart. It stores in almost no space. The Smart table folded is only 2' x 4' x 6" (maybe that thick including the legs). Any right blade circular saw will work with it but if you are like me and enjoy quality, try a Hilti 267E. The Smart Router Kit (SRK) does so many things well that it amazes me. Here is a link to "Dino's Gallery". http://eurekazone.com/gallery/ Take a little while and look thru it. It will give you a lot of insight into the many uses of the EZ. If you have questions after that, just visit the EZ Forum right here on Sawmill Creek.

Burt

[Greg Koch]

Here's a quality Delta, with the commercial Biesemeyer fence, for about $650 brand new... That's close to $175 less than the current Amazon price. It would give you many years of good service, and the fence could be moved to another saw if/when you upgrade.

[Kevin Blunt]

The best advice that anyone ever gave me was to buy the absolute most that I could afford. I own a Delta hybrid saw and love it. Yeah, it would suck having to move it a few times if that is the case but I think you would be happy you went with something like this in the long run. If it is possible for you, I would go with a good contarctor saw or Hybrid. That being said I have heard and read good things about the bosch as Glenn above suggested. My 2 cents FWIW

Kevin

[Tyler Howell]

Give Festool guided rail systema try
It's a keeper and does almost everything my Cab does.
It is very potable:cool:

[Matt Meiser]

Another recommendation on one of the two big guide systems. If I had limited space I know I could do what I do on the table saw with the guide if I had the right attachments. I think the table saw is still faster for some things, but given the tradeoffs of space, money, and power, I think they will serve you well. And even if you decide to get a table saw later, you'll won't be out anything as the guide system will still prove to be a useful tool.

[Corey Hallagan]

Having owned a couple of different table saws and enjoy the heck out of my contractors TS, If I was in your shoes and the stage your in I think one of the guided systems would be the way I go as they get very good results from what I have seen here. In addition get a good sliding compound miter saw that will be very portable and can move with you for quite some time and it should fit your bill. Some day a guided system may help you outfit that permanent shop when the day arrives with shop cabinets etc. Good luck!

Corey

[Kent Fitzgerald]

Welcome, John

I opted for a jobsite saw (DeWalt 744) when I was in much the same circumstances. The power and accuracy were more than satisfactory, and for what it's worth, the saw passed the "nickel test" easily. I happen to think the DeWalt rack and pinion fence is one of the best designs on any saw of any size.

The downsides were limited table size and very high noise level. This is not a machine that you would want to leave running for one second longer than necessary. So, if portability is a premium, a jobsite saw can do a fine job, but it makes some compromises.

[Ray Bersch]

John, here is my experience and I was just thinking about the issue this evening so I have given it some thought. I bought a Ridgid job site saw when I moved from my home of 24 years to a townhouse. I had always wanted to get into woodworking but now I was faced with working from a 2 car garage. I thought the job site saws the best because they fold nicely and take up very little room and I can easily pack it in my wagon to take up to my summer home. I compared all those on the market and picked the Ridgid - and it is indeed a very good saw. I have used it for two years and have only one complaint - it is very loud - and aside from that it meets all my expectations (and DON'T expect it to be anything more than a job site saw.)

Then one day I was introduced to the "dead wood" concept of the Festool and the EZ system. I ran across a used Festool saw and guide and snapped it up. I have used it since last spring right along side of the Ridgid saw and let me tell you if I had to do it again I would start with that type of system and go all the way. When you consider the price of a good job site saw and a miter saw, you can spend just a little more and get a rail system with the dedicated tables - add the efficient dust collector and you have one heck of a system that is very portable, easy to store, reasonably quiet and works very well. I have stopped lugging the Ridgid back and forth - the Festool saw is so much nicer to move, and I am considering selling the Ridgid and completing the Festool system with a table, dust extractor and all that goes with it.

So, that is one man's actual experience - hope the discussion helps.
Ray

[Randal Stevenson]

There are several good points here. As your renting, I doubt this is for home repair, so WHAT are you wanting to build?
I have a tablesaw (birthday present, otherwise for starting out, you can find either decent used ones, or ones that upgrades won't really hurt you, $150 or less), radial arm saw (Old Dewalt for $75), circular saw guide system (for most stuff 2" or less), Jointer/planer (if your using unprepared stock), etc....
Some of the older equipment is both decent quality, and can be swapped between 110 and 220. So look at that when your shopping.
Only you can decide, I've seen people go out and spend $10,000 for a shop full of tools, and use them 6 times to cut 4x4's, then I have seen people buy everything at garage sales, start loving it, and wonder why didn't they spend the money to start.

[john martin]

I was impressed by the civility and thoughtfulness on this forum when I was lurking, but I had no idea how fast you guys were!

The EZ-Smart or Festool guide setup strikes me as an elegant option that can grow with me as I expand my shop (router, etc.) and skills. I understand that neither is a match for a good TS, but "will do" for now, and will complement whatever I eventually end up with -- and the portability/stowability of it seems like a strong point for it until I get settled enough to look for a big ol' cabinet TS.

Now to read through all the arguments on Festool vs. EZ Smart, then find a good quiet circular, then...

Thanks all! for these responses and others throughout Sawmill. I feel like I'm learning more through this forum than I have in years of magazines.

-john

[john martin]

I realize I forgot to answer this question, but it's a hard one for me. I just love working with wood. In my cabinet-making class, I mostly just built 15"x15" boxes. I figured they'd stack well as modular shelves, and move easily with me through college, and I could make each one different (rabbit, dove, butt, etc.) to learn something new. That was 12 years ago, and every day they remind me to get back to woodworking. At this point, I think I'd like to try some simple furniture -- table, desk, bookshelves, etc. Each summer I help make a cedar/canvas canoe, and have been dreaming of building a kayak someday. Eventually, a shop, maybe a house, and then trim and built-ins.

So I want something that is useable/useful in a rental, but not disposable. My experience cutting 4x8 panels on an "average" TS (other than a panel saw) has been clumsy, so I'm interested in looking into the guide systems -- it seems more efficient to move the saw than the wood (disclaimer: I was raised on a Radial Arm saw;)).

By the way, I'm very very pleased that my first option for the "disposable table saw" was quickly squashed. I was hoping it would be.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Hi John, Welcome to the creek!

I have the DeWalt 744 and I really like it, I also have a Festool TS55 with guide rails. For me, once I got the Festool setup, I find I use the TS much less, but it is still an important part of my workshop.

I think you need both, as they both do some things better than the other does, but if you are only getting one, get the Festool first, you can do more with it.

The Ez system is for sure worth a look, especially if you have a circular saw already, for me the Festool saw was what I was after, it is a great saw for cutting up sheet-goods, and the DC on it is VERY good.

BTW if you really want to build any kind of boat, then a bandsaw would be higher on my list than a TS.

Cheers!

[scott spencer]

Hi John - IMHO a hybrid is the way to go. You'll get a full size saw that's extrememly capable, a full enclosure, good DC, smaller footprint, good mass/stability, a lifetime tool, and will run on either 110v or 220v. Good alignment and blade selection will allow you to cut anything you need to. The 22124 is a great choice.

http://www.epinions.com/content_184778395268

I think a portable would suffice b/c there are lots of people building nice things with them, but you won't have the table surface, longevity, or mass, and it'll be alot louder.

[Ray Bersch]

John, the biggest mistake I made was to underestimate, no - not even consider, the amount of dust created in our work. Like most, I then tried to adapt the standard screaming shop vac to the saw - it just does not do the job, so then came a Dust Collector onto which I then added a canister filter to replace the bag - but not before a lot of work on the saw to adapt it to a decent dust collector - whew - think of this upfront and save yourself a lot of grief. And, oh yea, Sawmill Creek came pretty late to my game - so you have a good head start.

Ray

[Scott Loven]

LOTS of Radial arm saws around! They have a few saws on craigs list

http://madison.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/search?areaID=165&subAreaID=0&query=saw&catAbbreviation=sss&minAsk=min&maxAsk=max
Scott

[john martin]

My original foray to Sawmill Creek was to get thoughts on the decision between a TS and BS as a first major tool. A BS is definitely on my list (for reswaing) because I'm very interested in recycling lumber, but the size I'd need/want is bigger than a TS, and since I figure I'd need both, I thought I'd start with a TS. However, maybe with the guide system I'll find that I can get a BS before the TS... more for me to think about.

As to dust collection, this is another thing I'd forgotten to consider until now. DC on the BS will be an interesting challenge, but it *is* something that I can tackle up front on a TS (cabinet) or circular saw (any recommendations beside Festool?)

[Burt Waddell]

John,

The Hilti 267e is the best circular saw I have ever used. I also have a Festool. The Hilti is exceptionally well balanced - feels great in the hand.
Like the Festool it is varible speed. Their ad says that the Hilti is the most powerful circular saw made. The Hilti is also a rear plunge with a depth stop. Just connect a hose and dust collection is very good. Blade changes are the easiest that I have ever seen. Flip a lever on the left side to kill power to the motor and lock the shaft. Then lay the saw on it's left side.


Burt

[Dino Makropoulos]

John.

Saws with dust ports for vacuums.
Hilti E267.
PC MAG 325. and other models.
Bosch-CS10 and CS20.
Makita (Cement fibre saw)
Hitachi ( Hardie saw)
Worx.

All Dewalt - Makitas -Bosch - Milwaukee's
and others can be modified using the Bosch dust adapter.

All above saws can use a "dust shield" to further improve dust collection.
and you can use them on and off the guide rails.

Best overall by features and design.
1. Hilti E267 - PCMAG 325. (both with brake)
2. Dewalt - Milwaukee. Makita (with brake)
3. Worx - Hitachi- Bosch. (no brake)

Good luck.