Auto Service : Brakes and Rotors...

[Roy Wall]

SMC gurus.......

I want to give a shot at bleeding my brakes - but I won't have a helper. Aren't there some GOOD products around that will apply pressure to the Master Cylinder reservoir so I can "bleed" each of the four lines myself - along with the anti-lock actuator ?? I'll do a Google search while awaiting your recommendations.....

Secondly, I've got 90k and 7 years on these pads and the rotors...so I'll be changing the pads - and most likely "turning the rotors". But, is it wrong to "turn the rotors"..........instead of just buying NEW ROTORS in the first place?

I appreciate your opinions....

TIA!!

[Matt Warfield]

They do make some one-man bleeders. Just google one-man brake bleeder and you should see quite a few options.

Matt

[Steve Clardy]

Nothing wrong with turning the rotors.

They will check them, measure them to see if they will turn. If they won't turn, they will suggest new ones.

[Joe Pelonio]

Turning or replacing depends some on the vehicle. Many of the heavier big engined 4WD suvs almost always need turning or replacing as they get warped, they are too thin for the weight of the vehicle. One of those things they do to get better gas mileage. Most small cars do fine with turning every other time. If you have noticed pulsing pedal definitely
needs turning if not too thin, otherwise replacing.

I've bled myself without special tools, just the bottle with the tubing, but it's a lot of work. You pump the pedal then wegde a scrap 2x4 between the seat and pedal to hold it down. Go loosen the bleed valve, then push the pedal to the floor and wedge in a longer 2x4 that keeps it to the floor.
Then go tighten the valve, and repeat. As long as the wood is the right length to prevent the pedal from coming back up at all, and the tube is under the fluid in the bottle, it works fine.

With 90k miles be sure to check the rears too, and even if you have rear disc there are usually small drums inside for the parking brake that at 90k may be cracked and need replacing.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Roy........I'm sure there will be some to disagree with me but........I had constant brake problems with a new vehicle I bought. Once the warrantee ran out and it was on my dime.....I always put new pads against a new surface. If they weren't warped to bad, I'd turn the rotors and put new pads against them. My wife liked my brake jobs a whole lot better than the dealership who never did the same thing. It just makes sense to me to put the flat surface of a new pad against a flat surface of a freshly turned rotor.

[Roy Wall]

Good responses guys............thanks!

Ken - I agree with your logic totally!

Joe - Yes, the rears are also disc and it does have the drum parking brake......I'll have check them also.

I saw on Google the "Mityvac" brake bleeder was a recommended "one man operation". At $120, I would break even after two "bleeds".....
Last time I bled brakes was in college. My 72' Ford Maverick and roomates 70' Capri.........we got it done somehow - I guess I'm questioning my ability on this one.... I don't know why, I've worked on cars a lot in my life - but never the brakes!:confused:

[Matt Warfield]

Brakes aren't at all difficult. But attention to detail and knowing the details are the key(true for almost everything isn't it?) If you're up to both, hire it out.

[Robert Mickley]

One detail missed, start at the furthest point from the master cylander and work your way to the closest one.

In theory if you do not crack open the hydraulic system you should not need to bleed them anyway.

I just finished doing brakes on my old astro van. I had to replace the front calipers. All I did was open the bleeders and let it sit, kept a close on the fluid in the resivoir and let gravity do thework.
This approach does not work on all vehichles, it wont work on my 93 F250

The old tube in a jar trick is easy also. In theory as you depress the brake pedal and let it up it will push the air out and suck brake fluid back into the system, Trick is to pump the pedal slowly.
open the bleeder
put a small rubber hose on it
pump it 4 or 5 times
close the bleeder
and move to the next one.

Make sure you dont run the master cylander dry or you get to start over
DAMHIKT:rolleyes:

[Tim Burke]

Roy,

I've done dozens of brake jobs over the years. Just average cars and minivans, nothing bigger.

1. Bleeding - the hand held vac pumps for about $25 work very well. But if you don't open the system, you shouldn't need to bleed.

2. Rotors - You save so much money by doing your own brakes, the cost of pads and rotors is typically insignificant. I would just automatically replace the rotors with that many miles. Turned rotors are thinner and can overheat easier.

3. Pads - buy good pads. Not the $15 pads - spend more like $30 to $40 per pair for ceramic. Good pads will not squeek, cheap pads will start squeeking after a few hundred miles. And that blue goopy junk (to put on the back of the pads to reduce noise) that they sell or give you with cheap pads does not last long either.

Make sure your calipers slide freely. Some require a bit of high temp grease.

Tim

[Al Willits]

With 90k I'd either turn or replace the rotors, check to see which is cheaper.
Be aware there are several different pad materials, if in doubt use OEM replacements, or check where your buying them for which type to use.

I'd also flush the brake system, both my brake guys say brake fluid can be contaminated after time, sealed system or not, also the $25 vacuum pump works well.
Look for milky brake fluid and if you see any, keep flushing till gone, then a bit more.

Watch brake fluid as it will eat though almost anything, including an epoxy covered floor, car paint and who knows what else.

Another tip fwiw, if you have aluminum wheels, put a bit of anti seize on the wheel backside, where it meets up with the wheel hub, I also put a bit on the lug nuts, and use a torque wrench if you have one.

Have fun...:)

Al

[Randy Moore]

Roy I just PMed you

[Steve Gray]

Roy,
I would think you could do your brakes yourself. In my experience, it is usually the lighter, late model car that will need rotor replacement. Todays rotors are not made with the same amount of material as say a 1976 caprice was. There is less material to turn before they hit the minimum and they heat up quicker and are more prone to warpage.
We do many 1 ton dually's that don't need rotors and aren't warped, but nearly all of our car rotors are warped when they come in.
The anti sieze on the aluminum wheels can be a life saver, I know from experience how hard it can be to get an aluminum wheel off while the car is sitting on the side of the road with a flat, barely held by a flimsy jack.

One thing I would add, DO NOT pry the pads away from the rotor without having the bleeder open. My shop had to buy 2 $700.00 :eek: ford antilock controllers before we learned. I don't know if forcing the fluid back through any other car will affect the controller, but its a standard rule at my shop to have the brake bleeder open before removing the pads.
Steve

[Bud Zysk]

I was a master technician for about 25 years, so I think I can comment here.

If you're going to go with a vacuum bleeder (which are really the better choice, IMHO), remove and clean the bleeder screws ahead of time. before you reinstall them, wrap a couple of turns of teflon tape on the threads being careful not to plug the hole. Because of the weight of the fluid, I've found that you can actually pull air in past the bleeder screw threads. The system can appear to have bubbles, when in fact, the only air you're seeing is what you are introducing.

Second, go ahead and buy rotors for two reasons. I don't feel the down time while you wait for them to be turned is worth it. I have to drive ~15 miles to a machine shop and drop them off. If they can't do them while I wait, I've got another round trip or I have to find something else to do while I'm in the middle of the job. Also, if you plan on keeping the vehicle for very long, save the old rotors. When it's time to do the next brake job, drop them off at the machine shop (auto supply or garage) a couple of days ahead of time. You can usually turn rotors a couple of times and still have plenty of safe material thickness.

Last, don't skimp on the pads. Ceramic pads come on many newer cars & trucks. They run cooler, last way longer than semi-metalics and the best part is that they have much less tendency to leave the black brake dust on your wheels and hub caps. Metallic pads offer very good braking and last almost as long as ceramics do.

Good luck and remember to use jack stands under it while you're working on it.;)

[Al Willits]

"""""""
Metallic pads offer very good braking and last almost as long as ceramics do.

""""""

I think you mean that the other way around don't you?:)

I would still say that if you replace only half the system, to stick with whatever pads are in there now, otherwise I'd change them all out.

Al

[Bud Zysk]

No, ceramics last longer than metallic. Over the road trucks and drag racers have been using ceramic for clutch material for decades because of it's higher durability. Regular clutch material will turn into cotton candy under those stresses. Automakers have only been using it in their brake material for about ten years that i'm aware of.

I don't understand what you mean by "half the system." Do you mean replace only the brakes on one wheel? Never do that. Always replace items in pairs on the same axle/end. But I can't see why you'd replace your front and rear brakes if only your front brakes are worn. That's just a silly waste of money. Front brakes tend to wear out twice as fast as rear brakes do.

[Terre Hooks]

You sure about that, Bud?

I mean with the advances in technology of metals and all, shouldn't semi-metalic pads be just as good as ceramics?

[Bud Zysk]

You sure about that, Bud?

I mean with the advances in technology of metals and all, shouldn't semi-metalic pads be just as good as ceramics?

As a paper weight maybe :D

<one thing this place needs is better smiley guys>

[Scott Henderson]

Smiley guys work better than ceramic??

[Jon Healy]

What everyone else said...plus -

As an alternate to the vacuum bleeder tool, there are these things called Speed Bleeders. These are a normal looking bleeder but they have little check valves inside them. Set up and open them like you would normally bleed and instead of having a second person opening and closing the bleeder, you just pump away. The little check valve opens and closes as you pump. Buy, install and leave them on. They work pretty well.

[Chris Padilla]

Roy,

What vehicle will you be redoing the brakes on?

[Al Willits]

Half as in front only, or rear only, don't mix pad designs is what I'm saying.

You sounded as you were plugging ceramics, then mentioned the metalics being very good and lasting almost as long as ceramics, was a bit confusing.

Al .. who thinks drag cars don't work well on the street....:)

[Bud Zysk]

There's actually a simpler way to bleed brakes without a second person, although a second pair of eyes helps.

Take a clear glass jar, like a small pickle jar and fill it ¼ full with clean, new brake fluid. Open the bleeder screw and attach a piece of clear plastic hose. Stick one end on the bleeder screw and the other in the jar, making sure that the end is submerged.

_Slowly_ press the brake pedal down to the floor and almost as slowly let it come back up to the top. Pushing down forces the air out. When you allow the pedal to rise, it draws the clean fluid in from the jar. If you push rapidly or too hard, you'll not only risk foaming the fluid (not good at all) but you may also blow the hose off the bleeder. Letting the pedal rise too quickly will almost assuredly cause the fluid to foam, making the bleeding process that much more difficult.

[Bud Zysk]

Na, I wasn't plugging anything, really. However, it really is OK to vary brake material from axle to axle. It's side to side variations that must be avoided. :)

[Terre Hooks]

Bud,

you sure you aren't the Plant Manager for Raybestos® or something?

[Bud Zysk]

I assure you I know nothing about horticulture. :mad:


:D :D :D

[Al Willits]

"""""""
it really is OK to vary brake material from axle to axle.
""""

I don't think so, it will work, but pads of different friction rating will alter the front/ rear percentage of braking, thus changing the designed properties of the braking system...to each their own, but I'll stick to like for like, thank you...

Al

[Chris Padilla]

I work on my own stuff...even on my BMWs (when I can) and one of the first things I did was change only the front pads to less dusty ones. BMWs are known for unbelievably dusty brakes...you have to clean your rimes 2-3x a week...crazy!

Anyway, I've been like this for at least 50,000 miles and the rears (original to the car, 70k miles total) are probably needing a change...finally I'll put the same pads on the rears that are on the fronts.

Near as I can tell, there was no discernable change in braking but each to their own. Some change their oil religiously every 3k miles...others wait longer...but this is a whole 'nuther can o' worms! :D

[Roy Wall]

Roy,

What vehicle will you be redoing the brakes on?

1999 Lexus LS 400......

I got the car off a 3yr lease......went and got new toyota OEM pads right off the bat - had the old ones off to replace.........and they were at least 60% good. So I put them back on! Now, 50K later......they are finally due. They have 91k on them.

Brakes on the LS are easy to do - a very good system for switching out the pads.

All these responses have been great - and I"ll give it a go!! I was a little skeptical at first, but I have a OEM repair manual, and I don't think I"ll have a problem getting the calipers and rotor off. There is NO Pulsing in the rotor.....but I'll still get them turned this time - next time I'll just put on new rotors.....they're about $100 each OEM.

Again, thanks for all the info....... I think I can bleed the system without messing too much up!!!

[Norman Hitt]

Roy,


One thing I would add, DO NOT pry the pads away from the rotor without having the bleeder open. My shop had to buy 2 $700.00 :eek: ford antilock controllers before we learned. I don't know if forcing the fluid back through any other car will affect the controller, but its a standard rule at my shop to have the brake bleeder open before removing the pads.
Steve

There was a very good article in Popular Mechanics, seems like two or three years ago, that explained the problem you mentioned, Steve. In the article, they said that on ANY vehicle with Antilock Brakes, that the bleeder MUST be open BEFORE compressing the caliper piston. The explanation was that since brake fluid has the tendency to readily absorb moisture even from just the humidity in the air, there will almost always be some amount of water in the brake fluid, and that it tends to work it's way down to the piston, (low point I guess), and that due to the heat generated there, some rust will start to form. When you depress the Piston, to free the caliper from the rotor, you stand a very good chance of pushing rust or other debris that is in the piston back up into the antilock controller, and that IF this happens, there is "NO FIX" for this and the controller MUST be REPLACED, (at a Very High Cost, they added).

PS: Steve, that CD was pretty neat. Are you coming over for Lunch anytime Soon?

[Roy Wall]

Thanks for all the great advice fellas........

Got the pads off, new ones on.....and even took the rotors for a nice "spinny turn" for fresh, smooth metal.

A good neighbor helped with the bleeding (standard two person method) and all is well for the next 70+ K (hopefully for the car too:) )

Thanks guys!!!!