Jointer or Planer first?

[Rob Calkins]

Which of these should I get first? I have a General 50-220 table saw and I am now looking for the next tool.

I have found a Jet 6CS on Craigs list for a good price. Any thing to watch out for? He is asking $400, but they are on Amazon for $500, so I think I could get him down a little.

Thanks
Rob

[Tim Johnson]

Get the jointer first, without getting a flat surface on one side, which requires a jointer, not a planer, you'll never get sqqare stock from rough stock. Others may have work arounds, but a good jointer, in the widest format you can afford, is the foundation to a long, enjoyable woodworking hobby.

[Mike Cutler]

Rob.

It depends, although I agree with Tim to get the jointer first, on your work habits and what you can and cannot deal with.

A board can be edge joined on a router table, or with any of the guided circular saw systems on the market. Heck, a long straight piece of aluminium flat stock will work too. This would eliminate the jointer, eh.

A planer, can act as a jointer to joint a face with a special sled, and then plane both sides parallel. Again it looks like you don't need the jointer.

You do need the jointer though. It is the beginning of material preperation. it performs both of the above mentioned work arounds easier, and better.

I only mentioned them because the Jet 6" will become limiting very quickly. I have one. It's just too small, and lightweight for the long haul. I need a much bigger jointer. I'm looking at used 12" + jointers.

The problem with jointers is $$$. Big ones are very expensive. Put your money towards a much bigger jointer if you can,and use the workarounds I mentioned until you can get a bigger jointer.

Personal opinion.

I have that same General tablesaw. How do you like it so far?

[Charlie Plesums]

I had a 6 inch jointer and found it virtually useless. Good lumber (FAS grade) must be at least 6 inches wide when finished, so starts 6 1/2 or more inches wide... thus the 6 inch jointer can't be used on the faces of your good wood. It is fine for edge jointing, but with my saw well adjusted, I rarely have to edge joint.

I consider an 8 inch jointer minimum, and preferably 12 inch. In fact, I now have a 16 inch jointer which opens additional opportunities (but is beyond the "essential" level).

As noted, with a lot of effort (shimming the boards on a sled), you can use the planer to flatten the first side, then do the second side as normal in the planer. I would say both jointer and planer are essential, but if you can only have one, it has to be the planer... you can't make the opposite faces of a board parallel (even thickness) with the jointer.

[Don Baer]

If I were to win the lottery I'd buy a joiner that is at least 12" wide. That said I do my edge joining on the table saw and then plane on my 13" planer. When I do buy a joiner it will be at least a 12".

[John Michaels]

I think using the planer sled method works better than a jointer IMHO. You can buy a 12 inch lunch box planer fairly cheap. Buying a 12 inch jointer to face joint a board would be big bucks. In addition you can use board straighteners on your table saw to straighten the edges of crooked boards.

[Rob Calkins]

Ok if the planer should come first what do I want to look for? I have also been looking at a Jet Planer Moulder JPM-13. Would this do? My limitation is money (as always) and space. But I don't want to buy some thing and then have to rebuy the right one 6 months later. I have learned a lot on this list.

Thanks,
Rob

[Scott Parks]

I'll tell ya... My planer gets used a lot. My jointer was always in the way in my small garage, so I sold it.... It takes up too much room for only getting used a couple times per year. There's other ways to get a straight edge, but not many ways to get rough lumber flat, especially on a 6" jointer...

FWIW, I saw Hitachi 13" planers are on clearance right now at Lowe's for $269. I know nothing about them, other than 13" planers retail for $359-$425. Do your research on 13" planers. Once you have one, you'll love it....

[Don Baer]

I have the DeWalt 735 bench top. It has recieved best in it's class reviews in several reviews. I love mine.

[John Michaels]

Ok if the planer should come first what do I want to look for? I have also been looking at a Jet Planer Moulder JPM-13. Would this do? My limitation is money (as always) and space. But I don't want to buy some thing and then have to rebuy the right one 6 months later. I have learned a lot on this list.

Thanks,
Rob

I bought the Grizzly 12 inch lunch box planer. It's work's pretty good, but nothing to brag about. At Home Depot I saw the Ridgid lunch box planer and liked it alot. For more money you could go with the Makita. Given the choice again I would buy the Makita first.

[Ian Abraham]

If you are getting these tools so you can start working with rough sawn timber then get the planer first. Yes you still have to joint the boards somehow to get them straight, but with a bit of ingenuity you can do that with the planer / router / table saw / handplane method of your choice. If you just have a jointer, you wont be able to prep rough wood properly.

If you want a jointer to properly square up your already surfaced wood, then thats fine, get that first.

Ideally of course you want both :D

Cheers

Ian

[glenn bradley]

I got by "jointing" my material on the TS for awhile and love my planer. However this caused me to rely on the face presented on the material as a reference surface for planing (no 'real' lumber). Now that I have both, I'm pretty happy. You can get either one first because the other will be close behind. ;-)

[Alan DuBoff]

I have the DeWalt 735 bench top. It has recieved best in it's class reviews in several reviews. I love mine.Don, just curious. Do you find yours loud at all?:rolleyes:

I also have one and I find the results are pretty good, but the blades are only 1/16" thick and seem to wear out quickly. I got some HSS blades for it not long ago, but flipped the previous set and haven't put them on yet.

I picked up an old Parks 12" planer recentely, and I'm looking forward to getting rid of my DeWalt, as soon as I get a motor and get the Parks running.

[Tom Hintz]

I get this question all the time so for nearly a hyear, kept track of how often I used my jointer and planer. the jointer wins hands-down. That is mainly because of it's use for jointing edges for glue-ups.
The point made by othes about having to prep stock on the jointer before going to the planer is important as well. You can make wood look great on a planer but if you want it right, it has to be jointed first.
Of course, the ideal situation is to get both......

[scott spencer]

I'd go planer first. Nothing works better than a jointer and planer in tandem for flattening a face, creating a straight edge 90 degrees adjacent to the face, and then making the two faces parallel to each other at a consistent thickness. A jointer can't make two faces parallel to each other consistently, but with the help of a sled a planer can flatten a face. You can straighten edges on a TS or router fairly easily until you can get a jointer.

$400 for that Jet is not a good deal right now.....they've got the new ones on sale for that, plus it's essentially the same machine as the Bridgewood, Sunhill, Woodtek, etc., all of which sell new for ~ $400.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I had a 6 inch jointer and found it virtually useless.
Ditto


I consider an 8 inch jointer minimum, and preferably 12 inch.

Double ditto on the 12"
Bigger really is better on the jointer

[Mike Cutler]

Ok if the planer should come first what do I want to look for? I have also been looking at a Jet Planer Moulder JPM-13. Would this do? My limitation is money (as always) and space. But I don't want to buy some thing and then have to rebuy the right one 6 months later. I have learned a lot on this list.

Thanks,
Rob

The JPM 13 is a nice unit. I have the Jet 15" planer.

I wouldn't look at this as "which on comes first", but look at it as how do I optimize my $$$, and still be able to effectively mill material.

The lunchbox planers are a great solution. When they first came out they were a little flaky, but the new ones are very effective machines. According to the things I've read the DeWalt 735 is supposed to give an excellent result.

Look at the planers first, use some additional technique to joint an edge, and purchase a larger jointer down the road.

I agree with Scott, that $400.00 is too much for a used 6" Jet. Brand new out the door mine was less than $100.00 more than that. when I bought it.

Machine choices are always tough. Good luck.

[john whittaker]

Rob, As you can see, opinions vary on this often discussed subject and either way you go you'll want to add the other as money allows. Buying equipment normally involves balancing trade-offs. Here's my opinion:

You have a good cabinet saw and by using a very good sharp blade, you can get a good glue line on the edge of a board. (Owning a very good blade is also safer and all your cuts are improved) For that reason, I would recommend buying a planer first. If you buy surfaced lumber the jointer is not as critical to you at this time. Any good quality lumber is going to be "almost flat" and can easily be flatten out with just a planer. The trade off here is surfaced lumber cost more that buying rough.

As to which planer I recommend...that depends on you. Most 15" floor models are of the same foreign design/manufacture and differ only in cabinet type, motor brand and little options. If you choose a lunchbox model the Delta 580 and Dewalt 735 seem to have many satisfied owners but I'm sure the others are similar. Picking out the size and brand is really your call.

Good luck

[Jim Becker]

I'm a believer in jointer...especially wide ones. But relative to your question, planer first. You'll get more utility out if it by itself than you can with a jointer by itself. You really need both...face joint first to flatten and then plane to thickness. But go with the P as your second leg in the "work triangle" of TS, J and P.

[Art Mulder]

I'm going to be one of the ornery contrary ones here...

Y'know guys, I like and respect so many of you here on the creek. But, you're all very good at getting us to upgrade our tool plans... :p

I started woodworking in 1995, and bought myself a 2nd hand contractor's TS. I still advocate getting a decent 2nd hand TS as the first major tool. It's not too expensive, and it'll give you some years of good service, and it'll give you a good place to practise and find out what you need in the next saw. Most important, if you don't end up liking ww'ing, then you aren't out that much money, and they keep their value well, so it'll be easy to sell.

I jointed either on the TS or with a hand plane, for several years as I was slowly easing into this hobby.

'round about 99 I picked up a 2nd hand planer - a "huge" 10-inch Ryobi planer. One of the old original portables. I still have it. Yeah, it has lots of limitations, but it fits on a shelf when I don't use it, and does the job when I do. Someday, I'll probably upgrade to a 13", but I doubt I'll go any bigger, unless we move to a larger house.

And that was it for several years. I edge-jointed with an old #7c Stanley jointer that I found at a used-tool dealer.

Finally, last fall, I forked out for a 6" Delta X5 jointer. To the guys in the thread who stated that they found a 6" to be useless... I find those words a bit harsh. Fact is, I work in a basement shop. I just don't have the ROOM to fit an 8" (or bigger) jointer in my space. There are plenty of ww'ers who produce great work with a 6" jointer.

I'm just a hobbiest, and I've been perfectly happy with my 6" jointer over the past 8 months. Does what I need, and does it well.

So Rob. Have fun with your hobby. Don't buy more than you need. If you're in a basement -- watch your space. If you've got a great big shop, well, nothing personal, but I hate you. :D If you're mostly building small projects, I doubt you'll need anything bigger than a 6" jointer. Ditto for a 13" planer versus a larger 15" If you build big stuff all the time... then your needs may be different. And remember that there's usually more than one way to get something done.

Hmm, was there a point here?
best,
...art

[Al Willits]

I just went though all this, and ended up with a 8" jointer and a 15" planer, both by York.
But whatever you buy ain't always gonna be big enough, but figure what size of wood your gonna deal with 80 or 90% of the time and go for that.
Worst case is you can always cut them to wide boards in half, and plan/jointer them that way, or go find a wood working shop/lumber mill and have them do the occasional to wide a board.

fwiw I stopped at 8 and 15" as the next size units up were quite a bit more expensive and I don't plan on seeing that many boards over 15" anyway, wander around your lumber mill and see how many are over 15", my limited experience would say maybe 10% maybe??

I also thought of going used, but used 12" jointers and 22" planers, are few and far between in my part of the country.

I would stay away from the 6" jointer though, I found the 8" does quite nicely.. imho

Your budget and how long you want to wait to buy are what's probably going to determine what you buy, I know a few wood workers who get by with a 6" jointer and a 12 or 13" cheaper planer and do just fine, they'll tell ya you work with what you have and adapt.

This is all from another newbie, so take it for what its worth...either way, enjoy whatever ya do...:)

Al

[Jerry Olexa]

I vote "planer first". I've had my 13" Delta planer about 2 years now. V pleased. Just now starting to look at jointers to go the next level....Just IMHO

[Gary Keedwell]

Knowing what I know now, I would get the planer 1st. You can make a sled and shim under the low spots, then turn it over and the board will be parallel. I saw where a guy used screws for shims so he could take the "rock" out of the board. Personally, I usually just use my lunchbox planer at the beginning of my project and find myself constantly going back and forth from TS to Jointer. I'm very big in having my board edges parallel. Just my 1/50th worth.

Gary K.

[Kenny King]

i had the same question about a year ago. i was advised to get the 8" jointer. I bought a 6" yorkcraft from wilke and traded it in 6 months later for an 8" jointer.... definitely get the 8" if you plan to process anything like 100 bd feet of lumber, otherwise you could get something smaller.

One thing that stopped me from getting the 8" at first was that you'll need 220V to run a 2 Hp+ motor. I'm now wired for 220!

for the planer... alot of folks like the dewalt 13" planer... gotta say it's a nice machine and it's what I ended up getting. I bought a refurbished one, but really didnt' save much since I would've gotten free shipping through amazon for a new one

if i had the room i would've bought the 15" planer from yorkcraft.

What I ended up with: an inexpensive 8" jointer that I could upgrade with a BYRD carbon cutter (almost costs as much as the jointer) and a dewalt 13" planer.

My advice... install some 220 circuits and get an 8" jointer minimum. I think you'll be very happy with the 13" planer 8" jointer combo if you planning on processing rough lumber in the 100 BF+ quantities.

- ken

[Scott Parks]

Which of these should I get first?

I have found a Jet 6CS on Craigs list for a good price. He is asking $400,
Thanks
Rob
I've seen used ones advertised between $150-$250, so no, I don't think $400 is a good price. When buying used things, I shoot for better than half price of new. You know you opened a can of worms here.. Which came first, the chicken or egg? Both have their place in the shop.... Neither one is a bad purchase... But like I said, I don't use a jointer anymore. Do commercial shops rely on jointers? For straight edges there are many options, but for flattening 100 bd/ft of lumber, you're sunk without a planer. The money you save by buying rough lumber vs. BORG planed lumber will pay for your planer on your first big project. Besides, you can likely buy straight line ripped lumber also...

Six to one, half dozen another. I bet you'll get a 50/50 vote on which to buy first, and all are valid reasons.... On your next BIG project, decide which one you'll use the most (jointer or planer) and buy that one first...

Oh yeah, I vote for the planer....;)

[Alan DuBoff]

Worst case is you can always cut them to wide boards in half, and plan/jointer them that way, or go find a wood working shop/lumber mill and have them do the occasional to wide a board.Sure, but do folks always want to be cutting stock in half and laminating it back up in some cases? I know that I don't.

In the best world, your jointer and planer are the same width so that problem doesn't exist.

I would stay away from the 6" jointer though, I found the 8" does quite nicely.. imhoReally, you get that much more from your 8" jointer? Those 2" make that much difference? I understand if you buy most stock between 6"-8" wide, but you still can't face plane a 12" piece of stock, and that's common for quality grade material.

For edge jointing, which I use my current 6" jointer for, it works just fine and I can't imagine a need for anything larger.

Face planing is another story, and I'll resort to building a sled to use with my planer until I can get a 12" jointer one day.

Your budget and how long you want to wait to buy are what's probably going to determine what you buy, I know a few wood workers who get by with a 6" jointer and a 12 or 13" cheaper planer and do just fine, they'll tell ya you work with what you have and adapt.I agree, budget is probably the primary concern, otherwise we'd all have 24" jointers and 24" planers. When you don't have anything, a 6" jointer and 12" planer is a blessing!

[Rick Le Douche]

TL, DR

but there is an article in this month's issue of Workbench magazine on how to get by with just a planer. Good pictures.

[John Kain]

Well, I bought a jointer first. It was because Amazon had a ridiculas deal going on for delta jointers.

That said, I would choose a planer first.........for all the reasons noted previously in other posts.

I would say, though, that a 6" jointer isn't worthless. It really depends on the type of wood you work with. I'm a hobby woodworker, and I don't buy alot of the more expensive wider boards. Most of what I work with is under 6" wide, and so my 6" delta jointer works great. I would love to have a planer soon, but I'm making do with chalk and handplanes; and that's OK with me.

EDIT: $400 clams is way way way too much for a used 6".....

[Al Willits]

I offered cutting in half as a option, along with going to your local lumber yard/wood working shop, gluing can be done, doesn't have to be though.
Never glued boards together to make panels?

And yes I get much more out of my 8" jointer, main feature is table lenght and power, much easier to feed longer boards though and keep them straight, I can also take a bigger cut, for me, that was enough to buy the 8". add a higher and longer fence also.
You looked at the price of a long bed 6" jointer, for a few bucks more I got a heaiver, more powerful, 4 blades cutter even longer bed, with the controls I like.
For me it was a no brainer...key words here is "for me"...

By no means am I saying something else won't work, I am saying at this time what I bought, is working for me at this stage of my learning curve.

Like I said, I have friends that get by just fine with much less.

Al

[Luis Oliveira]

I am sooo new to woodworking is not even funny, however I completely agree with most everyone to say before you buy a 6" jointer. Take a trip to where you buy your wood and notice the average width of the boards. I have found tha,t where I live they are 8" on average. Which means, to work with the boards I need to true the one short side first, cut the board to 6", wasting on average 2" then true the other side, then glue up two 6” boards just to make a 8” drawer front.
In my case I would have benefit more just buying an 8” jointer.

Luis

[Mark Rios]

Don, just curious. Do you find yours loud at all?:rolleyes:

I also have one and I find the results are pretty good, but the blades are only 1/16" thick and seem to wear out quickly. I got some HSS blades for it not long ago, but flipped the previous set and haven't put them on yet.

I picked up an old Parks 12" planer recentely, and I'm looking forward to getting rid of my DeWalt, as soon as I get a motor and get the Parks running.

Rob, my choice would be a jointer. I've had to try to do the sled thing for a few pieces of material and it takes up a tremendous amount of time to do all the set-up work, IMHO. And I do agree, you wold be doing yourself a better service getting an 8" over the six.


Alan, about the noise , if I may?.......I've got the same planer and yes!....it is loud. Ear protection is pretty much mandatory for this tool. I don't even remember my 6" jointer being as loud as the 735.

I find the job that it does thogh WELL worth just having to wear ear protection. It does a job that I can rely on over and over and over. That's very important to me.



BTW.....HEADS UP TO ALL WHO OWN THIS PLANER OR WHO WANT TO ;) ...........

Amazon still has the replacement blades for $40.25 (less the automatic 10% discount) but the in/outfeed tables have gone back up to $44.95 (up from $36.99 over the weekend).

[Curt Harms]

and would get a planer first again. Having said that, You do need both. It was an epiphany the first joinery I did where all the pieces were FLAT and the SAME THICKNESS. Things just fit so nice. There are workarounds for face jointing but ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby:D . I have a 6" jointer in a basement shop and while wider would be better, 6" beats nothing by a lot. I agree, $400 is too much; I've seen decent used 6"ers for $250. Know anybody with a 6"er? Convince 'em they need an 8" or 10" or 12" so You can buy their 6" for cheap:D .

I suppose that if one only purchased properly stored S2S lumber the face jointing function wouldn't be as important. I buy rough lumber so face jointing is important. The other time face jointing is important is if I have a nice piece of S2S that I plane down and it bows, warps or twists. I had some improperly stored phillipine mahogany that was seriously crooked. I cut it into smaller pieces on the bandaw, face jointed one side until it was flat, planed the other side, let it sit a couple days, face jointed and planed it again. It made for usable stock. I wouldn't buy pretzel stock on purpose, but...

[Chris Padilla]

:D Both? :p

[tod evans]

rob, my take on jointers is posted here; http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30519

may i suggest doing some reading and going to some of the local cabinet shops and watching how they work before you pull your checkbook out...02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

:D Both? :p

Chris,
Great machine and even greater operator! I vote both also and that means a MM joiner/planer AND adding another wonderful child to this world :D

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,
Great machine and even greater operator! I vote both also and that means a MM joiner/planer AND adding another wonderful child to this world :D

She's a good driver! :D

[Jesse Cloud]

My advice would be to buy the best tool you can afford. Unless you are working with small pieces, you should wait until you can afford an 8 inch jointer. You can get a decent planer within your budget.

Having said that, to produce good quality furniture, your lumber has to be milled dead flat and square - or it just won't fit right. There are lots of workarounds for the absence of a jointer (I would add hand tools to those already mentioned). But for your own productivity, consider a jointer.

The other path is to somehow avoid cupped and twisted boards altogether (good luck with that;) ) or cut them short enough that the defects go away. If you are trying to make money and you value your time, there's something to be said for that. The jointer is time consuming but I find it fun to use and rewarding. For me though, life is just too darn short to fool with a planer sled and shims:D .

[Jerry Olexa]

rob, my take on jointers is posted here; http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30519

may i suggest doing some reading and going to some of the local cabinet shops and watching how they work before you pull your checkbook out...02 tod

Tod...Somehow I missed that thread you referenced earlier BUT I just read it start to finish. Most provocative!!! Just as I'm in the process of buying my first jointer, the question rears its ugly head: Do you really need one? as documented by the fact in the thread that most production shops do not have or use. I thought this was the next natural progression to building quality, accurate furniture and now I'm questioning returning to my old method: quality TS with accurate blade and fence..A little confused..Look fwd to your comments/guidance..

[Ron Fritz]

Rob; you have lots of good advice here. For me I bought a 6" jointer first because at the time that's what I really needed. About a year later my next logical purchase, for my needs, was to get a planner. I use them both all the time and on almost every project. Ron

[John Kain]

Tod...Somehow I missed that thread you referenced earlier BUT I just read it start to finish. Most provocative!!! Just as I'm in the process of buying my first jointer, the question rears its ugly head: Do you really need one? as documented by the fact in the thread that most production shops do not have or use. I thought this was the next natural progression to building quality, accurate furniture and now I'm questioning returning to my old method: quality TS with accurate blade and fence..A little confused..Look fwd to your comments/guidance..
Need is a difficult word to use. In my hobby shop, YES, I need a jointer. Like I said, I work with alot of wood that's short in width. I'd be lost without my 6" jointer. Remember though, I'm working with an old craftsman contractor TS that I had to fix the motor bearing and casting with. While I "get by" with it, I sure love my Delta 6" jointer to help me with the intricate cuts for jointing and otherwise. It's all about what you need it for.

I'd love to have a planer. I can see myself using it more than a jointer........

but I can't imagine making some of the furniture I do without the jointer....and doubt I could do without.....

[Scott Parks]

For years, I used to joint a straight edge with my tablesaw. Make a baltic birch straight edge, and shoot it to your lumber with 2 brads... Run it through the tablesaw, and bingo, it's jointed. My tablesaw makes clean enough cuts for glue joints, just fine. Hang your straightedge on the wall 'til next time. Now that I have a guided circular saw, I use that instead, and I sold my jointer... nuff said... No more jointer in my way in my small garage...

[Don Baer]

After reading all of the posts in this threads and those referenced here I think that I'll pass on a large joiner and opt for a wide drum sander. I think that joing using the table saw, planning and then after glue up sending the panels through a wide sander makes more sense for me.

JMHO.

[Jim Becker]

TJust as I'm in the process of buying my first jointer, the question rears its ugly head: Do you really need one? as documented by the fact in the thread that most production shops do not have or use. I thought this was the next natural progression to building quality, accurate furniture and now I'm questioning returning to my old method: quality TS with accurate blade and fence..
If you're only worried about edges, there are plenty of ways to get a straight edge, although maybe not as consistently perpendicular to the face as you can with a jointer, especially if the face isn't flat. Yes, you can likely get a nice straight edge with a table saw if you have a straight edge to start with (or an appropriate jig or better yet, a slider) and a very steady hand. But I find that even on the best days, ripping something more than a couple feet long and getting a "perfectly" straight edge is really hard to do simply because my hands are involved with material that isn't necessarily supported well for that task.

One of the keys to the argument you bring up is the term "production shop". In production shops, time is money, so any heavy jointing is not going to be favored if they can source "reasonably flat" lumber and straight line it on a slider or straight line rip saw. And I will admit that from time to time, I'll just grab something that "sorta looks flat" and work with it. But most of the time, I find that my joinery goes together easier when I flatten the stock and then get a nice, straight and perpendicular edge to that face before thicknessing and cutting out the parts. I think that you'll find that most of the makers who don't concentrate on cabinetry that largely uses sheet goods wouldn't give up their jointer for anything.

But I'll go back to my original post to the OP of this thread...given an either-or choice, the thickness planer is going to give the most utility up front. Having only a jointer potentially leaves you with boards that don't have parallel faces, so their only real utility by themselves (without a thicknesser) is for edges...which as you point out, can be done with other tools and methods.

[Mike Cutler]

Tod...Somehow I missed that thread you referenced earlier BUT I just read it start to finish. Most provocative!!! Just as I'm in the process of buying my first jointer, the question rears its ugly head: Do you really need one? as documented by the fact in the thread that most production shops do not have or use. I thought this was the next natural progression to building quality, accurate furniture and now I'm questioning returning to my old method: quality TS with accurate blade and fence..A little confused..Look fwd to your comments/guidance..

Jerry.

I also went back and read that thread, and some others along the same line. I'm not certain that a comparison between a production cabinet shop, and a home shop can be fair.

I don't have access to large capacity dual head planers, and 50" wide sanders, or a rip saw. I can't chuck a bunch of material that twists too much coming out of the planer because it's cost effective. I can't glue up a 30" wide panel, and then put it through a planer. It has to be good before the glue up, or I have a lot of sanding to do. I also don't have Tod's buying power to maintain multiple contracts, and contacts at numerous lumber yards. I envy the beejesus out of him for that alone

My projects are "one offs". I can't set up to mill a thousand board feet of lumber to the same dimensions to economize assembly.

In Tod's post in that thread he stated that he very rarely ever glues up panels that are greater than 36" long. That's not too long. The material can be pulled into true if necessary, and easily done without a jointer. The last glue I did was 10' long 30" wide and weighed close to 100lbs. The current project calls for glueups that are 60"x27" and they'll be heavy also.

I'm not challenging Tod's post, or advice. It's just that a person has to look at what kind of work will you be doing, or think you will be doing, and what facilities you have to work with. I work alone, as do most hobbiest. There is no one ever available to help me out for a second. I have to do it all alone. In a production shop there is usually a pair of hands somewhere for a moment or two to lend a hand.

In my first post, I stated that a 6" jointer was too limiting, and some folks took a little offense at that. I apologize for offending anyone, but for Me
a 6" jointer is not adequate. I have almost tipped mine over twice during edge joining evolution. I was edge jointing 11' long brazillian cherry boards that were 14-16"wide and over an inch thick. Today I was edge jointing wenge boards that were 8' long, and 14" wide. For me. I need a longer, heavier jointer.

Sometimes I think the jointer/planer subject is the same as the chicken and the egg. In the end you eventually want both. It's just which one do you want to eat now.

Chris Padilla has the right solution I think, but that must be the ultralight model if his daughter is needed to hold it in place.:D . She's adorable Chris.

[Paul B. Cresti]

....each and every one of us need to decide for OURSELVES what is and is not important to us. There never is a "correct" answer to the question, only a different point of view.....

In my beginings as a woodworker I did not have a jointer. I used my lunch box planer to do all of my milling and did the edge jointing on my shop built router table with split fence. During that time I figured I would never need a jointer as I was fine with what I had.....well eventually came in my Jet 6" jointer and I was amazed as how helpful it was for cleaning up edges quickly and of coarse face jointing. Well over those begining years and as my skills and desires to create bigger projects increased so did my jointing needs.....in came my USA made PM 60 8" jointer, it was a great machine. I figured I was done there....little did I know I would turn this hobby into a full time/ full part time career. As time passed, I began to get sick and tired of ripping boards just to fit my 8" jointer. Then in came my Minimax FS41 16" jonter/planer (I would have gotten a 20" if they had it available immediately back then) and that was all she wrote.

Now since then, I have cut back on my edge jointing quite a bit. I now have a MM slider so I do just about all of my straight line ripping/edging on that. I still do all of my face jointing though on my FS41. I am also buying a lot more rough lumber these days (and actually prefer it now) because I can squeak out a little more out of each board. My FS41 is probably my most important machine in the shop because it does jointing, planing and horisontal slot boring ( aka mortises for loose M&T joints). So in this matter I am most likely a "special case" and I do mean that in a "I am nuts" sort of way.

Now that I am making more and more complex pieces these days (at least for me that is) I am also doing a lot of resawing on my bandsaw. I can honestly say that there is no way I could get the results I do get resawing if that board was not prepared properly and that means a nice flat face & 90d edge. At times I may even re-face joint that big piece again if I needed to make multiple resaw cuts. This saves me a lot of time in sanding and produces good results for me. In the near future I might be adding a widebelt so this could change...

Either way you go, for ME the jointer is an important tool in my shop. I am not a high production shop, I do not buy 1000's of bf of lumber at a time and I do not have wood storage like Lou Sansone has ;) . I use it in conjunction with my other machines in order to process my stock as needed. No way is the "right way" but in my small corner of the galaxy I sure am glad I have my jointer.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I am sooo new to woodworking is not even funny, however I completely agree with most everyone to say before you buy a 6" jointer. Take a trip to where you buy your wood and notice the average width of the boards. I have found tha,t where I live they are 8" on average. Which means, to work with the boards I need to true the one short side first, cut the board to 6", wasting on average 2" then true the other side, then glue up two 6” boards just to make a 8” drawer front.
In my case I would have benefit more just buying an 8” jointer.

Luis This is done all the time. Most of the WW magazines have done a feature on it in last couple of years. You have to replace existing gaurd with a gaurd that cantalevers from fence. It is just a form of using rabbeting shelf, which most 6" jointers have, only it is a 6" wide rabbet. Run board through only until you get a flat face. Cut a piece of 1/4" ply and hot glue to jointed area. Ply should be no wider than jointed area. With ply side down, run board through planer, producing a flat and parrallel face. Turn board over, remove ply and plane rest of second face. This method is limited to board no wider than 9". My local hardwood dealer seldom has stock wider than 9", so this works for me.

[Mike Cutler]

Well stated Paul. Nice post.

[tod evans]

guys, honestly it doesn`t matter if you`re a hobbiest or pro, whether you`re buying 50bf or 500, if a 4/4 board has a 1/2" twist in it and you use a jointer to remove that twist you`re left with a 1/2" board....now if you take that same 4/4 board and glue it into an assembly or rip it or crosscut it it`s highly likely you`ll get use of 3/4-13/16" when you`re done. so unless you`re financially capable of starting with 5/4 lumber to use 4/4 then i fail to see the usefullness of face jointing....02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Tod,
In my case I do use 5/4 + stock. I gave up on anything less. As you stated any face jointing of thinner material relegates it to useless material or veneer. If I do need to glue up two thinner pieces of stock I will face joint the two mating pieces quickly. After glue-up I will then mill it as required.

[Al Willits]

""""""""
....each and every one of us need to decide for OURSELVES what is and is not important to us. There never is a "correct" answer to the question, only a different point of view.....
"""""""

Yup, good point, others can post their thoughts, but whoever is making the decision needs to have the final say.

Another thought, is there anyone close to you that has a jointer/planer?
Maybe see if they give ya a demostration or even let ya play a bit on them?
Along with that, maybe some one who would plan/joint the wood for you until you make up your mind?

Another reason for people to put their state/town in the profile maybe?

Al

[tod evans]

""""""""
....each and every one of us need to decide for OURSELVES what is and is not important to us. There never is a "correct" answer to the question, only a different point of view.....
"""""""

Yup, good point, others can post their thoughts, but whoever is making the decision needs to have the final say.

Another thought, is there anyone close to you that has a jointer/planer?
Maybe see if they give ya a demostration or even let ya play a bit on them?
Along with that, maybe some one who would plan/joint the wood for you until you make up your mind?

Another reason for people to put their state/town in the profile maybe?

Al

al, this is exactly why i`ve bothered to take the time to respond on this subject again. everybody needs to make their own choices as to how they work and what tools/materials they spend their money on. i think that if folks have lots of different viewpoints and information to sift through they`ll be much more capable of making informed decisions when it comes time.....02 tod

[Jerry Olexa]

If you're only worried about edges, there are plenty of ways to get a straight edge, although maybe not as consistently perpendicular to the face as you can with a jointer, especially if the face isn't flat. Yes, you can likely get a nice straight edge with a table saw if you have a straight edge to start with (or an appropriate jig or better yet, a slider) and a very steady hand. But I find that even on the best days, ripping something more than a couple feet long and getting a "perfectly" straight edge is really hard to do simply because my hands are involved with material that isn't necessarily supported well for that task.

One of the keys to the argument you bring up is the term "production shop". In production shops, time is money, so any heavy jointing is not going to be favored if they can source "reasonably flat" lumber and straight line it on a slider or straight line rip saw. And I will admit that from time to time, I'll just grab something that "sorta looks flat" and work with it. But most of the time, I find that my joinery goes together easier when I flatten the stock and then get a nice, straight and perpendicular edge to that face before thicknessing and cutting out the parts. I think that you'll find that most of the makers who don't concentrate on cabinetry that largely uses sheet goods wouldn't give up their jointer for anything.

But I'll go back to my original post to the OP of this thread...given an either-or choice, the thickness planer is going to give the most utility up front. Having only a jointer potentially leaves you with boards that don't have parallel faces, so their only real utility by themselves (without a thicknesser) is for edges...which as you point out, can be done with other tools and methods.

Jim, John and Mike: Thanks for your responses and insight. As I think about it, its a time issue in a production shop and in an individual home shop, its a matter of individual taste/needs (as Paul said). I can see there is no perfect Black &white answer and in many/most instances, a jointer is a handy tool to have in your shop. That earlier thread caused me to pause and rethink my strategy but feel better now about my original decision. Especially w rough cut lumber which I buy, it'll be a big help at least, for me. Thanks for taking the time to re-educate this jointer newbie...

[Mike Cutler]

if a 4/4 board has a 1/2" twist in it and you use a jointer to remove that twist you`re left with a 1/2" board....now if you take that same 4/4 board and glue it into an assembly or rip it or crosscut it it`s highly likely you`ll get use of 3/4-13/16" when you`re done.02 tod

Tod.
Not to dismiss the rest of this paragraph, or take it out of context, but I think that this is a very important point that you have made.

Whether someone elects to use a jointer or not. This is an effective solution to minimize wasted material, and maximize the amount of full thickness material. A little bit more time doing a glue up, but time invested well. Excellent point to bring out.

To the Op (Rob).

I hope that I haven't strayed too far from your original question.

[Tom Henry]

I was showed how to use a planer as a jointer, and with this technique a 13 inch planer becomes a 13 inch jointer...

[Mike Jory]

Bruce;
If I had make the choice over again I would buy the jointer first. Made a huge difference in stock prep. Among all the things I've used the jonter for, I've had good results from table leg glue ups that made wider legs than original stock. (after the glue was chippped off)

My answer will seem a bit unfair because I bought both at once. I was fed up with not being able to prepare rough stock. I could have spent the same money on a couple quality plains, but I'm weak, I love power tools.

My wife was (tried to be) understanding when I brought some nice furniture in the house.
Good Luck,
Mike

[Chris Padilla]

Chris Padilla has the right solution I think, but that must be the ultralight model if his daughter is needed to hold it in place.:D . She's adorable Chris.

LOL! Thanks, Mike...she's my little doll! :D

I'm getting lots and lots of rough wood so being able to prepare it properly, I felt a jointer was needed but I also wanted a planer. In fact, I had the Delta xx-580 (13" two-speed) for a while and it was great. Planers just about only do one thing and that is to make one side perfectly parallel to the oppostie side. However, they do this very, very, very well and for not much investment.

The same size jointer easily costs 2-4x that of the planer. I also thought, "Gee, Self, wouldn't it be nice to have a planer and jointer of the same size. What's with this 13" planer and 6" jointer stuff?"

I then visited Mr. Jamie Buxton and I saw he had a nice little combo jointer/planer 12" Hammer in his 2-car garage and it fit and worked quite nicely! That was the answer I was looking for: a combo jointer and planer and they were virtually guaranteed to be the same size!! How wonderful and convenient!

Now I have the combo machine in my two car garage and while it is big, it most certainly takes up less room than a sepearate machine. I also decided to "go big" and get the 16" version over the 12" or 14" version but I didn't quite wanna pay for the 20" version so the FS-41Elite from MiniMax fit the budget and filled my needs.

My two cents....

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan, about the noise , if I may?.......I've got the same planer and yes!....it is loud. Ear protection is pretty much mandatory for this tool. I don't even remember my 6" jointer being as loud as the 735.

I find the job that it does thogh WELL worth just having to wear ear protection. It does a job that I can rely on over and over and over. That's very important to me.I have mixed feelings about the DW735.

1) it's extremely loud, the loudest machine I own in my shop, bar none. This cannot be comfortably used without wearing hearing protection.

2) Blades wear out quickly, because they're only 1/16" thick. I can only get about 100-200 linier feet on a "side" of blades it seems (a set will double that). Depends on the wood and width of course, but unfortunately even having nicks in a portion of the blade warrants replacing. You get 2 sides to a set of blades, but that is the case for most all porta-potty-planers.

3) You really need the chip accessory if you don't have DC to hook up to it, which is optional.

4) You really need the tables, which are optional.

It is practical and compact (quite heavy for it's size). It is well constructed, and I like how it adjusts. So, even with the above limitation I listed off the top of my head, it's not a bad planer and with new blades it leaves a nice surface.

Amazon still has the replacement blades for $40.25 (less the automatic 10% discount) but the in/outfeed tables have gone back up to $44.95 (up from $36.99 over the weekend).I'm on my second set, and why I bought the HSS blades from Infinity. Infinity says you should be able to sharpen them, but even if they get a decent extention between the blade changes, that would help. Some folks have honed their old DeWalt blades and say they cut well again, but there is not much to work with.

[Chris Padilla]

1) it's extremely loud, the loudest machine I own in my shop, bar none. This cannot be comfortably used without wearing hearing protection.

Personally, I don't turn on anything in my shop w/out hearing protection on. However, I'm bad about wearing eye protection (really trying to be better about it) and even worse wearing a mask over my mouth/nose. It is usually only after choking/coughing to I decide to don the mask. Boy, I REALLY need to get my DC plumbed and put to use!! :o

[lou sansone]

If you always buy s4s wood that is pretty flat, then you could get away with just a planer and do the glue line rip on the TS. As others have said, you will eventually need both.

lou