LN 102 Question

[Mike Henderson]

I bought a LN 102 and received it yesterday. There's a design problem with mine which I'll describe here. What I want to know from other LN 102 owners is whether your 102 is designed the same.

On my 102, the front of the cap presses on the bevel on the iron, instead of the flat part of the iron. This means that when you adjust the blade, you have to loosen the cap then move the iron, then tighten the cap again. If I don't do that, I can't move the blade in because the cap rides on the bevel and gets very tight. If moving the iron back, the cap loosens.

This looks like a pretty serious design problem but maybe all of the 102's are designed that way. What does yours look like?

Mike

[Here's a picture of what mine looks like. You can see that the front of the cap is on the bevel. The edge of the iron is lined up with the back of the mouth, so it's not pulled back excessively.]

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Michael,

With my 102 cap placed in place so the groove is under the cross bar, and the iron retraced just so the iron is above the sole, there is about 1/16" or so befor the end of the cap touches the end of the bevel.

Iron is still sharpened with the 25 or so degree bevel.

Sounds like perhaps your 102's cap did not have the cap milled at its front or at least not done fully. Contact LN--or do what I would do and just grind it down.

You can see where the end of the cap of mine is in relation to the top of the bevel:
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/102_0001.jpg

Take care, Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks, Mike. When I put my blade in the same position, the cap is on the bevel. I could grind the cap back, but I contacted LN to see what they have to say. Either the cap's too long or the pivot pin was placed too far forward.

I appreciate the picture, also.

Mike

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

My 103 (close cousin to the 102) looks more like Mike's. I wonder if somehow you got a 103 cap, they may be a tidge longer.

[Mark Rios]

Wow, that's really good thinking Deirdre, WTG. That would make sense.

Maybe you could measure yours from the edge to the groove and then Michael can measure his and compare. Maybe Mike could measure his as a standard.

[Mike Henderson]

Brother Mark - that's a good suggestion. From the center of the channel for the pivot pin, to the front of the cap is just about 3/4 inch - maybe a 32nd less than 3/4 inch.

The overall length, from the back of the cap to the front edge, is 3 1/4 inch.

Deirdre, How does that compare to yours?

Mike

[Now we know who the smart twin is, Mark.]

[Ken Werner]

WOW! There is some smart problem solving going on here. P. Mike, whatever the cause, I'm sure L-N will fix it for you. They have great customer service. Unlike Mike W., I do not have the guts to take my brand spanking new L-N and grind it to fit. BTW, you're going to love that little plane. I've got a 102 iron body. Let us know what turns out.
Ken

[rick fulton]

Mike H,

My 102 cap fits more like Mike W's. But it's dimensions are nearly identical to yours.
BTW, the number "10" is cast on the inward side of my cap. I bought it about 8 months ago.
Good luck with your troubleshooting.

rick

[Mike Wenzloff]

Brother Mark - that's a good suggestion. From the center of the channel for the pivot pin, to the front of the cap is just about 3/4 inch - maybe a 32nd less than 3/4 inch.
And mine is near dead-on 3/4". Certainly less than 1/64".

Rick brings up what I suppose is a casting lot #, mine is the #4.

Michael--what is the bevel angle of the iron? I assume you have not yet had the opportunity to alter it, and so assume it is as per the factory.

Not that all this sluething isn't fun, but it will end up something requiring either a grinder or LN...

Take care, Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Rick, thanks for the additional info. My cap has a "9" on the inside (when I hold it forward side up (otherwise it could be read as a "6").

I'm starting to think that the pivot pin was installed too far forward on the main casting. That would move the position of the cap forward.

I'm sure that LN will do whatever it takes to sort this out. I've had nothing but excellent customer service from them in the past.

I wonder how many like mine are out there, or whether mine is an anomaly.

Mike

[Mike W. - the bevel is factory. I haven't measured it but I assume it is 25 degrees.]

[Derek Cohen]

Mike

I have the #103 and it sets up identically to Mike W's #102.

I am sure that LN will exchange yours for another.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Wenzloff]

...The edge of the iron is lined up with the back of the mouth, so it's not pulled back excessively.]
I just really read this added caption.

Just as a note, if I retract my iron until its leading edge is even with the back of the mouth, the cap is pretty much teetering over the upper end of the bevel.

With the iron advanced to almost exiting the mouth, but still "safe" form accidentally bumping into something--i.e., the iron will not cut in this position--I have the "gap" you see in my picture.

If, you advance the iron not quite through the mouth, does the cap still go onto the bevel?

Take care, Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I just really read this added caption.

If, you advance the iron not quite through the mouth, does the cap still go onto the bevel?

Take care, Mike

Here's a picture with the iron advanced so that the cap is sitting right on the top of the bevel, just barely on the flat portion of the iron. It's a bit hard to see how far the blade is advanced but, for me, that's too far. I think I should be able to retract the blade pretty far - if not all the way to the back of the mouth, pretty close - and still have the cap on the top of the iron.

From the picture you posted, Mike, it looks to me as if you have your iron retracted more than mine in the picture, and you have a 16th or a 32nd of flat space between the end of the cap and the beginning of the bevel.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable, but tell me what you think.

Mike

[When I advance the blade to get about 1/16 of flat space between the bevel and the end of the cap, the iron is all the way forward in the mouth - farther than you'd want the blade for use. In fact, I don't know if I could even take a shaving with the iron that far forward (not enough room between the front of the mouth and the iron to let the shaving pass).]

[Mike Wenzloff]

No worries, Michael--it will most likely take LN intervention as I have posted. It was that I had just read the caption to the added photo in the first post.

Unreasonable doesn't factor in.

For myself, if the cap isn't down on the bevel and the iron isn't exiting the mouth it is fine--again, for me.

Your the one who needs to be comfortable with the status of the plane and LN will take care of you.

Take care, Mike

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Sorry, I'm away for the weekend or I'd check, but I will check when I get back.

[Martin Shupe]

LN monitors these boards, but they do not post. If you call them, I am sure they have already seen the pics, and if it's not right, they will replace it with no questions. Well, they may ask questions to try to help you figure out if something is wrong, but they will take care of the problem.

You will not get better customer service from any other North American company. LN's reputation for quality and for backing their product is legendary.

Give them a call, and they will take care of this. Then report the results back to us. I am betting that if your plane is defective, you will have the next one off the production line, shipped to your door before you know it.

I have a few LN products, and a long list of their stuff that I will have sooner or later.

No affilliation, but a loyal customer.

[Mike Henderson]

Martin - you were right. I received the following message at 2:57am today from Thomas Lie-Nielsen:

Mike,
Thanks for the pics - it is quite clear that the pin is too far forward
and I apologize that you received a tool like this. If you have the
original box still, there should be a date stamped on the bottom. It
would be helpful to know what that date is.
We are running more 102s in a couple of days, and I will send one off to
you. When you receive it, please return the problem plane to us at your
convenience.
Best wishes,
Thomas

Just FYI, the date is March 17, 2006. I replied to Thomas with that info.

Thank you, everyone, for your help with this. I particularly appreciate the suggestions, questions, measurements and pictures which helped me determine whether my plane was out-of-specs.

I'll post a follow-up after I receive the new plane.

Mike

[Mark Rios]

Martin - you were right. I received the following message at 2:57am today from Thomas Lie-Nielsen:

Mike,
Thanks for the pics - it is quite clear that the pin is too far forward
and I apologize that you received a tool like this. If you have the
original box still, there should be a date stamped on the bottom. It
would be helpful to know what that date is.
We are running more 102s in a couple of days, and I will send one off to
you. When you receive it, please return the problem plane to us at your
convenience.
Best wishes,
Thomas

Just FYI, the date is March 17, 2006. I replied to Thomas with that info.

Thank you, everyone, for your help with this. I particularly appreciate the suggestions, questions, measurements and pictures which helped me determine whether my plane was out-of-specs.

I'll post a follow-up after I receive the new plane.

Mike




Even on the east coast that message was sent very early, almost 6:00 am. And on a SUNDAY no less. WTG Mr. Lie-Nielsen.

Makes me want to buy another LN plane at www.lie-nielsen.com. :D

[Mike Brady]

I noticed this thread yesterday and it rang a bell with my use of my LN 102. The problem with the cap iron riding over the bevel has occurred since I bought the plane a year ago. I never considered it serious enough to worry about. Mike W's suggestion of relieving the front edge of the cap iron made sense to me, so I did it. I removed about a 1/32nd, maintaining the slight bevel. I also finished that small bevel to a polished finish while I was at it. I can now move the iron the normal range of travel without the catches that I had before, much like the normal picture that were posted. This was an easy task that would fall into the "fettleing" category of improvements that make a plane a better tool.

[Mike Henderson]

Welcome, Mike Brady, to the Creek. I think you'll enjoy it here.

Regarding your comment on fettling, I understand your point of view but IMO that's a bit more fettling than I'd expect on a LN plane - I just feel it should be built better than that, given the reputation for quality that LN has.

Also, as a side note, I PM'ed Jackie and asked her to change my name on the Creek to "Mike Henderson". I had used my full name when I signed up because I expected that "Mike Henderson" would already be in use but my full name was confusing to many people. Thanks to Mark R to suggesting that in a round about way.

Now we'll have confusion because of all the "Mikes" on the Creek.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

This is a follow-up. I received my LN102 back from LN today and it looks a lot more like the pictures of yours. When the blade is withdrawn, the cap rests on the flat portion of the iron (just barely, but that's okay).

They reported that the cap was too long. I can't tell for sure, but I think they just ground the front a bit - it's shorter by a 16th from when I sent it to them. I didn't mark the cap that I sent them but the one they returned to me has a "9" casting mark just like the one I sent them and it's a sixteenth shorter.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Good to hear about the happy result Mike - although it was never in doubt.

I will file away this fix as a tuning tip. So simple really!

Regards from Perth

Derek