Need advice from coaches and parents...

[Martin Shupe]

School has started in Texas. My son is in 6th grade. He is in a new middle school, and has been there for about a week.

For the first time, he has different classes with different teachers. He seems to get along fine with all of them.

The first few days he talked enthusiastically about all the different things they were doing in PE that he had never done before. He likes PE, although he has never been in the top of his peer group athletically. He is not overweight (thank goodness he got my wife's genes), but is actually skinny for his age.

Today, however, the activity in PE was running laps, and shuttle races. The last 5 students in each activity had to do extra pushups and situps. I understand the coach is trying to motivate the kids to never be last, and get them to push themselves. However, is it appropriate to punish the "slow" kids all the time? If your kid is always last, what does he learn from being punished? Isn't it enough that he is humiliated by being last?

Now, before you tell me that my kid should "try harder", let me give you one more piece of information. My son has asthma, sometimes severe. It is seasonal, so that usually October and March are his worst months. However, with the drought in Texas, he has had more than his usual problems. Because of his asthma, when it comes to running, my kid will almost always be last. We have taken him to swim team the last few years, where he swims everyday for most of the summer, and he is always last. He simply does not have the lung capacity of other children his age.

So what do we do? Do we tell the coach we don't want him punished for being last? Then he would have to sit out, and my boy does not want this to happen. He does not want to be singled out or given special treatment, but as a parent, I wish the coach would not punish the last 5 boys.

For the coaches out there, is it common practice to make the slow kids do extra pushups just for being slow?

I really don't have a problem with a few extra pushups and situps, but if he is assigned extra laps in the Texas heat, I will be speaking with the Superintendent immediately.

If there are any other parents of children with asthma, I would appreciate how you might handle this.

Anyone else is free to speak up as well.

[John Bailey]

Martin,

As a retired H.S. principal I can tell you the coach is out of line. You should talk to him immediately about your son's condition. There may be a place for this at the high school level on an extra-curricular sport's team. That would be a different story. It would be inappropriate in a regular high school class, let alone a 6th grade class. I suspect you will be satisfied. But if not, go to the pricipal. If you are still unsatisfied, definitely go to the superintendent. That would be the proper chain of command and you are perfectly within your legitimate rights to do so.

I had to call ambulances twice for asthma attacks. It can be a troubling situation.

Good Luck!

John

[Jim Tobias]

Martin,
As a former PE teacher, athletic director and coach (basketball, football, etc. etc.) for 30 years, I do not think punishing the last kids in a run or whatever is appropriate. I do think it is appropriate to ask, expext, require that they do their best. This often requires the coach/teacher to keep students times or scores in numerous categories and just expect/require that each student is improving thier own performace. We called it improving "personal best time". If they do that over a semester or year, they will have improved their stamina, etc regardless where they started.
I do think that highly competitive team sports (as opposed to PE) are a little different in that coaches do have to push the kids harder to improve at a faster pace in order to be competitve. But I still don't think that making the last kids run extra accomplishes very much for those individuals or the team. There are other ways to motivate kids to perform other than punishing the slower runners. Everyone is not going to be the "fastest runner".
Just my opinion But I stick by it.

Jim

[Norman Hitt]

Martin, if it were me, I would immediately talk to his Dr. and explain the situation and ask for his recommendation, and if there is ANYTHING that he feels the coach/PE teacher should know, then have him put it on paper and take it with you when you go in person to talk to the coach. I would make an appt to talk to the coach and tell him what you have related here, since he may not even be aware of your son's Asthma problem. You should tell him that your son doesn't want to be singled out or considered a "Pansy", BUT you ARE concerned about his health and would appreciate anything he could do to increase your son's strength and development, but not in a way that would be detrimental or dangerous to his health. You should then show him the letter from his doctor outlining his recommendations.

"Most" teachers and coaches, when approached in a mild, curteous manner, will be willing to work with with you on matters like this. I wouldn't delay this action, because Asthma can certainly be life threatening in certain situations.
Sometimes children grow out of these conditions, maybe not completely, but at least to a point that it barely affects them if at all. I had asthmatic bronchitis really bad from about the 2nd grade thru the 6 th grade, and it started disappearing rapidly and wasn't really a problem after that, and I played ALL the sports. At age 65 it started showing up again from time to time but not very bad, and mostly only when the allergies are really kicking up.

Maybe your son will be lucky also.

Good Luck with your conference with the coach.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Martin, I was the fat kid in school, I always came last, I was not punished for it, aside from being last, that was in PE. I hated it, but I was just fat and could not run a fast, but I did not have Asthma.

When I got into Jr. High School, I went out for the football team, there if I was last, (last 6 players) I had to do an extra lap and get the water and such for the rest of the team at the halfway break in the practise. This made me POed at myself, so I stayed after practice and I ran wind sprints and extra laps, by the end of the first year, I was seldom in the last group!

Again, I did not have Asthma.

In my second year on the team, we got a different coach, he did not punish the last lap guys in a group run, but the last guy in each group. We were split up into groups for our runs, the linemen (me) and the backfield guys, the back field guys were fast, so they competed against each other, and the linemen were not so fast, but we competed against each other, this was a much more fair way of doing it, sometimes I did come last, but most time I did not, and it was rare that the same guy came last in any one group.

This was a lot better way of doing it, as we got older, can you imagine a 200lb lineman trying to keep up to a 150lb wide receiver? Not going to happen, but at the same time, no 150lb receiver was going to squat 200lbs like us linemen did :D

Just goes to show that there are fair ways to do things.

I'm sure that you and the coach/teacher can work something out, and don't forget to include your son, he gets a vote as well.

Good luck!

[Warren White]

Hi Martin,
I had the same sort of problem with one of my kids who had 'exercise-induced asthma.' He had a similar experience with his coach; he made fun of my son, and made him run laps. We took the Coach a note from the Doctor, saying that he shouldn't run laps but that walking laps was just fine. Despite that, he continued making my son run laps.

We went to the school and talked to the Counselor. She called the Coach in while we were in the room. She asked if what we had said was true. He said that it was. She told him in no uncertain terms that he was to stop immediately and that my son was to suffer no consequences for not running laps; he was not to suffer in his grade, and no special attention was to be given to him for not running. He started to object and was very quickly told that she would make sure that he did what he was told. He asked us to report to her any violation of her instruction.

Basically, it is clear that legally they would be in a real bind if anything happened to any child when a Doctor's orders had not been followed.

Stick to your guns; make sure that the school leadership knows what is happening. They will be on your side. Also, make sure that the Coach knows that he can't take it out on your son in any way.

I hope that it all turns out right; I know that you are a reasonable person and will be able to make your point effectively.

I hope you are well, my friend.

Warren

[Anthony Anderson]

Hi Martin, I was hoping John Bailey would weigh in on this one. Asthma or not, the PE coach is way out of line. I would definately go through the chain of command that John recommended. But one thing I would keep in mind, anytime that you question someone's authority, particularly a teacher, you run the risk of alienating your son with that teacher, and the backlash can be worse. You should, byno means, ignore the problem, especially if when it means keeping your son healthy; just be prepared for some resentment. Even if you have a legitimate claim; it is going to look like you are making excuses, to the coach, to get your son out of extra work. Just don't expect "You know, I never thought that what I was doing was wrong, I thought humiliation would motivate them, but you know what, now I see you are right. Thank you for coming to talk to me. I will change this immediately." It would be great if it did, but don't hold your breath.

Some people don't get the fact, that when you punish someone because of their ineffectiveness at a sport, hobby, or pastime, especially a child, their love for that hobby, sport, or whatever pastime, will be slowly dragged out of the child. Protect your son, preserve his love of PE and sports. Good luck with this, Regards, Bill

[Joe Pelonio]

That coach is out of line and I suspect that the school administration would be very unhappy to hear about this. I agree with talking to him first but I'm guessing that you will have to go over his head. These days I have often been annoyed by the way schools seem to do everything they can to eliminate competition academically, which will only make it harder for the students when they get to college and the real world. Yet when it comes to PE or other forms of sports they go nuts and do something like this.

My son too has asthma, in fact we had to take his nebulizer and a car AC power inverter with us to all sporting events. At PE he had his inhalers but
we got him an exemption from running (doctor's note) because it was 99%
sure to cause an asthma event.

[John Bailey]

As Stu said, let the kid have a vote. There are some (very few, very rare) kids that are just ornery enough to fight back and come out better for it. But, I repeat, this rare. I was one of those kids that was ornery. I ended up being captain of the football team and winning the All-Sports trophy. However, most of my friends would not take the degrading and quit. Those kids never got the benefits of organized sports. And, I lost all interest in sports after the glory of high school sports. To this day, I couldn't tell you who any of the stars are in any sport, unless it becomes national news like the recent Tour-de-France. Knowing what I know now, I would not have played sports, I would have been backpacking, canoeing, kayaking and sailing. But, I guess most of us would make some changes in our lives.

The most important thing is that you support your son, no matter what he decides to do. I was lucky enough to have good parents that supported me in any decision. That counts way more than any coach or school.

John

[Ken Salisbury]

I have extensive coaching experience (football) and being an ex high school football coach I second the recomendation of you talking to the coach one on one. Going over the coaches head is definitely the wrong thing to do.

Is the coach even aware that your son has asthma??

I have had many players who suffered from asthma and allowances can be made and most coaches will do so. If this one won't then he is not qualified to be a coach in the first place. Give him a chance to rectify the situation.

[Jim Becker]

I'm with John...encouragement is one thing, but "defacto punishment" is out of line.

Also, given your son's medical situation, your son should be empowered to determine when his "limit" is reached...only he can feel what is going on with his lungs and breathing. Do this in writing with the school principle, copying the necessary teachers/coaches. This is not to "single out" your son; rather, it's to insure his physical safety and well-being. In this manner, he can participate to the fullest extent. (Although our girls' issues are not the same, their school has our requests/requirements in writing about certain needs and the school has honored them)

--
Edit...Ken brings up a good point, talk to the coach first, but I still recommend you also put your requests to the school in writing to insure that there is official record of it.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I'm not a coach and neither is a PE teacher. I would remind the teacher that school is for the mind, and not for body building.

My interpretation of his job is that he should be teaching how and why we should perform healthful exercises and leave it to the parents discretion on what physical activities the child should participate in competitively and to what degree. That's what after schools sports leagues (like PAL) are for.

Parents can choose whether they wish their child to physically compete on after school sports leagues, or participate in a non-competitive after school sports leagues. Either way, these activities should not be the charter of a publicly funded educational system. Only the parents have all the facts about their child to make this determination. Further, the child's physical abilities, or disabilities are not for the PE teacher to highlight or resolve.

My apolgies for sounding abrupt. But this level of emphasis on sports in America seems to be getting worse. Ask the teacher which is more important to society? An educated child with the potential for positive change in our future, or one that sprints well, golfs well, or plays basketball well?

I'm not sure if the teacher's philosophy would work well in any other subject as well. For example, if a child has poor reading abilities relevant to the rest of his/her classmates, should the child be put in front of the classroom and be made to read more? Or are there other more dignifying methods?

-Jeff :)

Edit...I second Ken's and Jim's recommendation to put it into writing as well as discussing it with the principal and teacher. However, I would recommend the principal be the primary contact, If you discuss this with the PE teacher, the teacher may make an acception for your child which is another form of 'defacto punishment'. It seems a systemic fix is needed, and it's best for the principal to have that responsibllity.

[Ken Salisbury]

I'm not a coach and neither is a PE teacher.

I referred to the PE teacher as a coach because in most school systems the P.E. teachers are usually coaches who have teaching responsibilities in addition to their coaching positions.

Whether the person is a coach or just a teacher does not change my position of giving him/her to opportunity to rectify the situation by a one on one conversation as a first option. Writing letters to the school administration should only be taken as a second option. Any person in who makes a mistake should be given the opportunity to correct it themselves.

Of course I take this position because of me being prejudice in favor of coaches having spent part of my last 40 years doing just that. :) .

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Ken,
Check out my edit. I re-posted at the same time you posted.
cheers, Jeff

[Ken Salisbury]

Ken,
Check out my edit. I re-posted at the same time you posted.
cheers, Jeff

Jeff, with all due respect to: "However, I would recommend the principal be the primary contact, If you discuss this with the PE teacher, the teacher may make an acception for your child which is another form of 'defacto punishment'. It seems a systemic fix is needed, and it's best for the principal to have that responsibllity" I have to dissagree with you. Lets give the teacher the benefit of the doubt. Believe me - I've been there and made some similiar mistake myself in my coaching career. Going over the teacher's head as a first step could cause more problems than it will solve.

If you made a mistake on your job would you want your boss to report it up the line before he/she discussed it with you? If the teacher/coach does as you suggest then other actions would be appropriate and can be taken.

[Tim Morton]

I think that this practice is SO wrong. With the prevailing winds in school these days to be "eat the weak" with kids just being SO cruel to other kids in a way that seems to be way worse and more common than when we were kids....the teacher seems to be bringing one more level of emotional abuse to the table. If I were in your position it would be a tough call...I agree with the people who say talk with the teacher one on one....but that may have its pitfalls too...you do not want to make the matter worse by coming off as the whining parent....i think it might be something I would handle by dropping a note in the principles drop box....alerting him of the practice and asking him to "drop-in" on the class in the last minutes of class when this is taking place. This would work in our small schol district as we have a very hands on principle....in a larger school it may be someone else who would handle this kind of abuse. Regardless of whether YOUR kid makes it out of the bottom 6...there will always be 6 kids there and that is not right....PE is a required subject and there is no way at that age that the someone should be called out for not excelling...can you imagien if this were english class and the kids with the 6 lowest test scores were single out in front of the class and made to do extra work>?

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Chances are, if I made a mistake on my job, everyone will know about it including my boss, boss' boss, and so on. But, I understand your point.

Good luck to the original poster...
-Jeff :)

[Chris Padilla]

Martin,

Good luck with your chosen method...lots of excellent advice here. Going through a few things here at work (not school), I've learned that going through the "chain of command" tends to work the best but can be slow and frustrating.

I wonder, can you even talk to the PE/Coach/Teacher without a superior getting involved? These classes are during school hours so I wonder....

[Andy Fox]

Martin,

Many good points posted here, but I think those of John Bailey, Norman, and Jeffrey stand out.

I have exercise-induced asthma, and always had a little extra weight. I was also a major "sidestream smoker" from ages 0-15. I think a physician could prescribe something that will help your son tremendously with his asthma.

I was always physically active as a child, usually more so than many others my age. But I hated PE class. I still hate PE class! :mad: :rolleyes: We usually did something that seemed like a complete waste of time and energy and sweat, then we had to go hurry up and take a "2 minute shower" before math class. Yeah right, that 2 minute shower really helps. :rolleyes:

Despite the efforts of PE classes and mainstream education to convince me that exercise had to be a ridgid, make-you-feel-crappy routine squeezed into the middle of the day, I still manage to enjoy exercise and outdoor, individual sports that suit me better. Running a cool, narrow, woodland dirt trail in the morning or evening is a much different experience than running circles around the paved high school track 5 times with 30 others. I even managed to complete a short biathlon (run 5K, bicycle 15K, run 5K) after getting out of high school.

Just like the rest of mainstream education, physical education is pretty far removed from real life. It helps some, and is better than nothing, but it also prevents many from reaching their full potential.

[Glenn Clabo]

Martin,
Much has been said that I agree with...but I will also give you my personel experience.
I was a "jock" in HS...All State football defensive end and offensive tackle and indoor track shot/40 yard dash. However, the only course I ever failed was gym! I refused to do some of the things the gym teacher insisted I do because of my size...like gymnastic rings and highbar. I discussed this with my parents and they agreed to let me handle it my way.

I went on to coach baseball through high school and Legion for over 20 years. I never once made a less talented or physically less able player suffer physical discomfort for not being able to do what others can.

I'd first discuss this with your son to see what he wants to do and come up with a plan. Explain to him that you are simply being a parent and are worried about his health...but do understand the peer pressure thing. Discussing this with the gym teacher together would be my suggestion to your son...then try hard to keep your cool when you do...and take the moment to show what adults should do in this situation. This practice needs to stop not only for your son but for others who are too scared to make a stand and the well being of the teacher and school. It's not just simply wrong...A death or ambulance ride with a law suite related to a childs health is not what anyone wants...but what they are setting themselves up for.

[Chris Padilla]

Running a cool, narrow, woodland dirt trail in the morning or evening is a much different experience than running circles around the paved high school track 5 times with 30 others.

How about the crunching sound of freshly-fallen snow on an early morning jog?? God, I miss that and my nostrils tensing up from the cold! :D

However, in defense of school, they don't often have access to such places...you get the track (if your school has one) or have to run around the inside of a gymnasium.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I don't think that the asthma is the issue here. In a required class, PE or otherwise, the people who finish last shouldn't be punished. The people who finish first should be rewarded. This sort of bully attitude that the PE teacher has might be hard to overcome but I would talk to him first anyway. Were it me I don't think I'd focus on the asthma though. I'd bring it up but I'd concentrate on the unfairness of his methods of motivation. As has already been mentioned, there will always be people at the back of the pack. Focusing on just the asthma will mean that he'll still be able continue punishing the people in last place except for your son. How do you think that will make him feel? He shouldn't be punishing any of them.

In grammar school I had a PE/Wrestling/football coach who was a real jerk. He used to pick on one or two guys consistently. He finally went too far when he was teaching wrestling during PE class and did a move called, "Banana Splits" on his favorite target just to get a laugh from the class. Pulled the kid's groin muscles pretty badly and man did he get in trouble over that one. Didn't get fired though. That was just one of his many episodes of being a bully. Fortunately I was a pretty good athlete so I didn't ever get picked on in PE but I only did wrestling for one year and never signed up for his other sports. Track and field for me. I'll bet your PE teacher would've got along well with mine. Don't take any crap from him. If he shows any sort of attitude towards you go straight to the principle. I don't think you're going to have an easy time of it with him but I hope you do.

Bruce

[Andy Fox]

I don't think that the asthma is the issue here. In a required class, PE or otherwise, the people who finish last shouldn't be punished....

Good point Bruce!



In grammar school.... He finally went too far when he was teaching wrestling during PE class and did a move called, "Banana Splits" on his favorite target just to get a laugh from the class. Pulled the kid's groin muscles pretty badly and man did he get in trouble over that one.

In grammar school?! :eek: :mad: At my schools, nothing even closely resembling wrestling was ever even mentioned in PE, much less at that grade level! I would've loved to be in that kid's place when I was that kid's age, as it would've given me the opportunity to demonstrate some karate moves in well-justified self-defense. :mad: "Well, that's a slick move Mr. Abuser, but please allow me to demonstrate how we counter things in karate......" I'd be very concerned with my child's safety and well-being if they failed to defend theirself in this situation. :mad:

[Bruce Benjamin]

Good point Bruce!



In grammar school?! :eek: :mad: At my schools, nothing even closely resembling wrestling was ever even mentioned in PE, much less at that grade level! I would've loved to be in that kid's place when I was that kid's age, as it would've given me the opportunity to demonstrate some karate moves in well-justified self-defense. :mad: "Well, that's a slick move Mr. Abuser, but please allow me to demonstrate how we counter things in karate......" I'd be very concerned with my child's safety and well-being if they failed to defend theirself in this situation. :mad:

This teacher/coach was a pretty muscular guy and I doubt that any 7th or 8th grader was going to hurt him without kicking him in the groin. I watched the Karate practice of a the kid of a friend of mine. There were a lot of skilled kids there of all ages but I wasn't at all convinced that any of the smaller kids would have much of an effect on me if they tried. Sorry but at that age most of the damage to an adult would either be because of surprise of because the adult let them. This kid was barely able to get up let alone retaliate. I really don't think I'd want any kid of mine fighting with a teacher no matter what he did to him. I hope you're not encouraging your kids to punch or kick teachers. Do that nowdays and you probably would end up getting arrested. It's one thing to encourage your kid to stand up to other students but ecouraging them to fight a teacher is pretty much the same as encouraging them to fight the cops. I hope you have a good lawyer if they punch a teacher.

This teacher got reprimanded but that was all. The kid did get up and limped out of the class and took off from school. Nobody followed him and he didn't come back for a couple of hours. He didn't get into any trouble once he told the principal what the teacher had done.

That teacher was still teaching there for at least 20 years longer, maybe more. I was on his flag football team in the sixth grade. A few days into practice he got mad at all of us so he set up a routine where every single player had to stand while every other player got a 5 yard running start to slam into him. This wasn't a drill. It was punishment because were weren't listening to him closely enough. We all had bruised forearms and some had split lips/bloody noses and because it was flag football there were no pads anywhere, of course. Half of the team quit that day including me. The upside is that after they barely had enough for a team everybody who stuck around got to play every game. I'm sure the abuse continued. 6th grade!

Bruce

[Martin Shupe]

Wow!!!

When I posted, I thought I would only get a few responses, so I thank each and every one of you that took the time to respond to my problem.

I discussed this with my wife and son. Many of your points were brought up and are quite relevant.

1) Chain of command. My wife, a former teacher made it clear to me that there is nothing worse than skipping the chain of command. Kudo's to all of those who brought that to my attention.

2) Talk to the coach first. I attempted to do that this morning, but he was, before school even started, out with the 7th and 8th grade football team. That's Texas, and dedication on his part that I respect. I was also glad to see them practicing in the relative cool of the day, as opposed to the afternoon.

3) Punishment for being slow. I agree with most of the folks who think this is not right, and that the winners should be rewarded instead. I was very torn about how to handle this. My son does not wish to be "singled out". He has only had to run one day in a week, and in other activities, he is not always on the losing team. My wife feels that if he only has to do extra push ups and sit ups once a week, we should be ok with that. I reluctantly agree with her. If it was extra laps, I would be much more concerned, due to the asthma issue. For now we are going to monitor this, and see how it goes. Yes, I feel like I am letting the coach slide, but my son and wife don't want to turn the coach against my son when the school year has just started.

4) What did we do? For now, we sent a carefully worded email, informing the coach of our son's condition (in case he didn't know). We explained that on certain days he would not be able to keep up, and that if he asks to go to the nurse for a treatment, he should be allowed to go immediately. We received what I think is a very satisfactory response, with the coach saying that my son's health is paramount. I am very relieved to hear that.

5) I know my son with never be the star football player, but I don't want him to be a couch potato either. This summer we started with barbells to build his upper body strength. He seems to like the weight lifting, and has moved up from 5 to 8 lbs, and I think is close to going to 10 lbs. It does not seem like much, but he is skin and bones. He says he can tell a difference. Time will tell. We also do Boy Scouts as our extracurricular activity, which includes some hiking, and someday, backpacking. I hope and pray that one day he will grow out of his asthma, as so many parents have said happened with their children.

Thanks again for all of your posts. I know I don't post as much as when the Creek was smaller, but I still try to read and keep up with what is going on here. Your assistance in the matter is very much appreciated by my wife, myself, and my son. Thank you all.

[John Bailey]

Congratulations Martin. It sounds as though you've come up with a well thought out, reasonable plan. And it sounds like the youngster is handling it well also - taking actions to better himself and not be a victim. Sounds like you've good a keeper. (Just keep him away from the turners!)

John

[Ken Fitzgerald]

(Just keep him away from the turners!)

John

And just what did you mean by that comment Mr. Bailey?;) :D

Well thought out plan Martin!

[Andy Fox]

Bruce, I'm not trying to argue with you about this. It sounds like you misunderstood me about the appropriateness of self-defense.


This teacher/coach was a pretty muscular guy and I doubt that any 7th or 8th grader was going to hurt him without kicking him in the groin. I watched the Karate practice of a the kid of a friend of mine....
A lot depends on the style.... :) Some styles are power-oriented, while others emphasize using a larger opponent's strength and size against him.


I really don't think I'd want any kid of mine fighting with a teacher
I completely agree.


no matter what he did to him.
I completely disagree.



I hope you're not encouraging your kids to punch or kick teachers. Do that nowdays and you probably would end up getting arrested. It's one thing to encourage your kid to stand up to other students but ecouraging them to fight a teacher is pretty much the same as encouraging them to fight the cops. I hope you have a good lawyer if they punch a teacher.

Bruce, I think you're confusing retaliation with self-defense? Self-defense involves inflicting only the amount of injury required to prevent harm to another or onesself or one's property. Escape/evasion is generally the goal, not vengeance or a fighting match. What if the teacher had decided to go further and break or dislocate bones? What if the demonstrated move was one which compresses the carotid artery, causing blackout, brain damage, or death? It sounds to me like a properly trained child could've escaped with less (if any) injury to the teacher than what the child suffered. And, there are plenty of self-defense techniques which don't involve kicking and punching. I used to wrestle with my best friend in high school. He was on the team, I wasn't, but we both benefited from those friendly matches. Even he was well-trained enough to know how far to push holds without inflicting injury.

If I ever get thrown in jail for preventing my children from being abused by a teacher, I will wear the orange jumpsuit with honor. The wrestling "demo", as it was described, seems like an obvious cover for physical abuse. It would be different if the boy had signed up for the wrestling team or something like that.

Abusers of all types cover their actions, some better than others. That's how they get away with it for so long. An impromptu wrestling demo sounds like a convenient cover. Follow the news stories of any large metro-area, and you'll see an alarming (although thankfully small) number of teachers sentenced on various abuse charges.



I hope you have a good lawyer if they punch a teacher.

On the other hand, I hope that teacher has a good lawyer and plenty of favorable witnesses if my kids are ever put in a situation so threatening that they are forced to go to the extreme, and resort to punching a teacher in self-defense!

I have a great deal of respect for nonviolence, teachers, and any other person. When a teacher engages in any type of abuse, they cross the line and cease to be a teacher--they have become a threat and a fugitive.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Sorry Andy, but I don't think I misunderstood you. I don't care much about the different styles or methods of self defense. I seriously doubt there's a light weight 7th grader in the world that could've defended himself against that 225Lb, muscular, former college football player, former college wrestler when he put him into that, "Banana split" hold that he got him into. His head, hands, and legs were immobilized and he was put into a forced splits position. I doubt you would've been able to get out of it as an adult. This was during a normal PE class. Our school did all sorts of sports from, "Ball" sports, gymnastics, wrestling, track and field, even square dancing:eek:. The teacher was using him as an example and picked on him frequently but it wasn't just a spur of the moment wrestling hold he threw on him. We all were wrestling, just not all of us with the teacher.

Yeah, I've had several friends who were into various martial arts over the years. I'm familiar with some of the different styles. I don't believe for a second that any kid that weighed about 80 or 90 pounds could've got the better of this guy or any other large, fit adult. I know, it's all about technique...:rolleyes: One punch and the kid's going down hard. You said your piece, I've said mine. We obviously disagree about what should've happened but the difference was that I was there. I do believe that it's good for any kid to defend them self if they can but the point of my original post was to point out that there are sometimes bullies disguised as teachers, not whether or not the kid should've done something about it.

Bruce

[John Bailey]

And just what did you mean by that comment Mr. Bailey?;) :D

Well thought out plan Martin!

I'm not bitin' Ken:p

[Ed Gibbons]

I was a physical education teacher for 20 years and I am now an administrator. What the teacher is doing is a form of physical abuse. Essentially, he is conditioning your son to dislike exercise.

You need to contact either the supervisor of physical education or the principal immediately. Physical education is extremely important and all of the children need to develop a positive attitude toward fitness.

Physical education is not about developing athletes but rather, developing healthy lifestyles. (Smoking, drugs, alcohol, diet, physical fitness)

If you need any additional advice or assistance, feel free to contact me. My email is egibbons@patmedia.net

Ed Gibbons:eek:

[John Bailey]

There you have it Martin, an ex-PE teacher turned administrator and an ex-Music teacher turned adminstrator agreeing that you've got all your bases covered and the PE teacher in question should be singing a different tune.

John

[Frank Fusco]

I haven't read all the posts on this. But, as a parent who has raised three children, I have opinions based on experience.
Personally, I have no objection to a 'drill sargent' approach to teaching discipline and competivness to children.
But, make that BUT, when a child has a health condition that could endanger his life, the teacher/coach must be made aware of the situation. Depending on his personality and your judgement, either go to him first or start at the top with principal or even superintendant.
Your son's life is worth more than a coach's ego or a negative comment on his annual review. They are the hired help, they work for you.
It sounds like you have taken a firm stand. Good.
Another thing to consider. If the administration does not respond in a manner you believe appropriate, run for school board. Be a voice for the children and community.

[Chris Padilla]

Martin,

Sounds like an excellent approach. Too often, I think people go off like a shot instead of carefully assessing the whole situation (guilty as charged! ;) ). The old honey/vinegar flies thing, you know!?

[Mike Cutler]

Martin.

Let me state in no uncertain terms that what the PE teacher was doing is wrong. It's also great to hear that he responded to your e-Mail, and will make your sons health the highest priority.
i will say that I disagree for one, because your son has asthma, but secondly. He simply is not old enough to respond to this tactic. It's at this point though that I have a somewhat opposing viewpoint to some of the issues.

I ran track in Jr. High,High School, and College, and I can assure everyone that we were very much indeed "punished" for lackadaisical performances during practice. From the 9th grade on I never had "regular PE". I ran. I ran everyday, once in the morning, and then in the afternoon at practice. You were still expected to get your distance work in in the evenings once you got home. I was about thirteen when this started.

I've been chased around the streets of Pomona Calif. by an old man( Track Coach) in a Datsun Honeybee, that was screaming at me through a bullhorn out his window, Telling me everything I was doing wrong, and calling me names. The punishment at that time was situps, I'd still rather run 10 miles than do 10 situps. I've thrown up doing situps. He also called my parents and told them that I was a "Lackadaisical marshmellow" who was too talented to be this lazy. My pop and me had a "discussion" that nite.:eek:

I had an eastern block coach run next to us, and smack the offending appendage with a drapery rod to teach form and tecnique, and oh yes, welts were raised. The first day of "summer camp" he told some of the best high school 1/2milers, and milers in the country that we were an embarrasment to his track and to get off, and run in the grass because we would never amount to anything. He made us run bleachers, not the stairs. We had to run on the seats to force us to pick up our knees over the backs, or bust your keester on a stadium bench in a football stadium until we couldn't stand up anymore. It was three weeks of "punishment" before he allowed us to step onto "his" track.

We used to have a track drill called the "Handicapped Rabbit" . Everyone starts off at intervals dictated by the coach, slowest to fastest. If you were passed you did extra laps if you were one of slower guys. If you were one of the fast guys and didn't pass everyone in front of you you did laps for each one you didn't catch. You couldn't win this drill. no matter whom you were.


I wouldn't trade any of my experiences for the world, and I had some brutal coaches at times. Track and cycling have taken me to places I never would have gone, and done things I would never have had a chance too. The difference is, It was my decision. At thirteen I decided that I would put up with this for the chance. My parents stood by and watched, and stayed out of the way. I'm sure that there were many elements that they disagreed with.

The discussion I had with my dad that nite condensed down to this. Be the best that I could be through hard work and discipline or quit. He wouldn't put up with half_ _ _

I guess the point is that at some point the individual has to determine what they will put up with, and what is important. What is "punishment", and what is motivation. Clearly Martin, your son is not at this point. PE should be fun for him at this stage of the game.

Watch your son and let him grow. Don't let the asthma get in the way any more than it has too. I know many elite and national class endurance athletes that carried a "power hitter" with them.

[Robert Mickley]

We had a PE teacher in 7th grade that was real bear. we used to run laps around the buildings since we where downtown and had no track.

He postioned his assistants at the corners so no one would cut the corner. If you did it was whack with the wiffle ball bat. I had the bad luck to not be athleticly inclined, I wa sone of the guys that usually finished last. I got a whack one day because my left foot just touched the grass rounding a corner.

My Dad was ticked. He showed up at school the next day I had PE, walked right on the gym floor in his work boots. He came up behind the PE teacher who had the bat in his hand kind of swinging it around and lecturing us. Dad snatched the bat out of his hands and procceed to whip him with it. He explained to him if he ever hit any kid again with it he would be back and would bring a real bat. ;) That was the last we ever saw of the wiffle ball bat. :D OF course that was 33 years ago that wouldn't go down well today.

Martin, Hopefully you have it all worked out

[Martin Shupe]

Boy, after those last two posts, I guess my son's coach ain't so bad after all.:D

[Mike Cutler]

Boy, after those last two posts, I guess my son's coach ain't so bad after all.:D

I think he's was just a little misdirected is all. As long he wasn't really trying to hurt him, a few pushups won't hurt in the long run.

Hopefully everything turns out alright. PE should be fun.

[Keel McDonald]

Martin,

John hit it right on the head. As a middle school teacher, there is a proper way to handle complaints/issues. Go and talk to the teacher 1st, principal 2nd, and Director/Superintendent 3rd. I can tell you from experience that if you tried to skip the teacher and principal and go straight to the Director/Superintendent, you would be told to follow the proper channels. Chances are, the teacher/coach doesn't realize it's a problem. Teachers are very reasonable people. Good luck.

[Frank Fusco]

Martin,

John hit it right on the head. As a middle school teacher, there is a proper way to handle complaints/issues. Go and talk to the teacher 1st, principal 2nd, and Director/Superintendent 3rd. I can tell you from experience that if you tried to skip the teacher and principal and go straight to the Director/Superintendent, you would be told to follow the proper channels. Chances are, the teacher/coach doesn't realize it's a problem. Teachers are very reasonable people. Good luck.

Keel, I must vigorously (and respectfully) disagree. We raised three children. One, our daughter, was a late in life child. This resulted in us having at least one child in our local school system for 26 continous years. And, I spent many years as a subsitute teacher. What I learned, first hand, is that problems of this sort if brought to the teacher first result in nothing but excuses. Often same with principal. They actually have books with scenarios for dealing with parent complaints. In college they get classes in this subject. I have seen the books. They are professionals at the old CYA game. Career and achieving retirement are their #1 priority. Starting at the top gets attention. My daughter had a series of four serious knee operations. As a result she had a disabled parking tag for her car. One day, her first day of recovery off of crutches, she was disciplined by a teacher for parking in the disabled area and made to move to a distant location in the parking lot. Being a nice guy, I went to the principal first. Nuttin' but a belly full of excuses. What I should have done was go to the prosecutor and sign a complaint of child abuse. The case here, a youngster with a life threatening ailment (asthma) is serious in the extreme. The feelings, ego, or career of the coach are insignificant. Start at the top and get attention and action.

Edit: Must add a P.S. Sorry if I offended you. I know many teachers well. Most want to teach but are victums of a system that system that has other priorities. I stand by my philosophy, if it is a call between a teachers career or a child's welfare, the best interest of the child comes first, by many miles.

[Keel McDonald]

Keel, I must vigorously (and respectfully) disagree. We raised three children. One, our daughter, was a late in life child. This resulted in us having at least one child in our local school system for 26 continous years. And, I spent many years as a subsitute teacher. What I learned, first hand, is that problems of this sort if brought to the teacher first result in nothing but excuses. Often same with principal. They actually have books with scenarios for dealing with parent complaints. In college they get classes in this subject. I have seen the books. They are professionals at the old CYA game. Career and achieving retirement are their #1 priority. Starting at the top gets attention. My daughter had a series of four serious knee operations. As a result she had a disabled parking tag for her car. One day, her first day of recovery off of crutches, she was disciplined by a teacher for parking in the disabled area and made to move to a distant location in the parking lot. Being a nice guy, I went to the principal first. Nuttin' but a belly full of excuses. What I should have done was go to the prosecutor and sign a complaint of child abuse. The case here, a youngster with a life threatening ailment (asthma) is serious in the extreme. The feelings, ego, or career of the coach are insignificant. Start at the top and get attention and action.

Edit: Must add a P.S. Sorry if I offended you. I know many teachers well. Most want to teach but are victums of a system that system that has other priorities. I stand by my philosophy, if it is a call between a teachers career or a child's welfare, the best interest of the child comes first, by many miles.

Frank

It's a shame that you feel that way. Offense taken! It seems as though you have generalized your situation to every teacher. I've never seen a teacher react the way you described, although there are people like that in every profession. And as far as the comment on "career and achieving retirement are their #1 priority", that's so far from the truth it makes me laugh. Anyone who's ever set foot in a classroom knows why we do it, for the kids, not for any other reason! How could I NOT take it personally?

And where I went to college, we took real classes, not ones on how to deal with complaining parents. I really am sorry about how your daughter was treated, but that didn't occur because you were dealing with a teacher or a principal, it was because of who that teacher or principal was. Don't take down an entire profession because of one bad experience.

My appologies for anyone I may have offended, including you Frank. But some things just really get my blood boiling.

[Ken Salisbury]

Frank

I really am sorry about how your daughter was treated, but that didn't occur because you were dealing with a teacher or a principal, it was because of who that teacher or principal was. Don't take down an entire profession because of one bad experience.



I agree ! !

Further more Frank seems to have been a sustitute in a really messed up school system - my experience has been just the opposite.

[John Bailey]

As a former principal, I can tell you that when I got a call from a parent, I always asked if the parent had already talked to the teacher. If not, I would ask the parent for a good time for the teacher to call, let the teacher know, and expect the teacher to call the parent. I always told the parent to let me know the next day if the teacher had not called. I did this because I rarely had to get involved when the teacher and parent were communicating. That's because the vast majority of both teachers and parents are reasonable people with the child's best interest in mind. It would appear that this is one of those cases.

In most cases, coaches were the first to communicate with parents. As I already indicated, I was fortunate to have a first rate coaching staff who always put the student and their academics first.

John