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Bill Webber
08-21-2006, 8:37 AM
I'm hoping ther's someone out there who has experienced this because I'm baffled! We bought the long-standing model home for a development. The upstairs guest bathroom toilet (longest run on the DWV line) acts like it is being siphoned out. But it is different. Starting with a full bowl, the flush appears completely normal. Full load flush. I can hear in the pipes in the basement, one normal rush and then stop. The toilet bowl properly fills with water. However over the next 3 - 4 hours the level in the toilet bowl slowly sinks to well below where I think the trap should be. I can jiggle the flush lever enough to fill the bowl again, and the same thing will happen again over the next 3 - 4 hours.

This is one of those new low water use, econo flow models. Is there any way the toilet could be defective? Leaking water around the trap but still going down the drain pipe? There's no evidence of a water leak anywhere. The toilet is above the family room and any leak would show up pretty quickly.

It's had to figure it as being a siphon problem considering the normal rush of water during the flush cycle... I doubt there's anything left in the pipes to create a siphon.

Like I said. I'm baffled. Any ideas?

Bill W.

Mike Sheppard
08-21-2006, 8:53 AM
Bill
Yes it could be a defective toilet, but it sounds more like a vent is pluged or some how not working. I would call the plumber back to check it.
Mike

Bob Childress
08-21-2006, 9:26 AM
It is almost certainly a plugged roof vent. Sometimes birds or other critters (or just junk) get in there and stop it up, creating a vacuum that siphons the water out of the loo. Call the plumber and then ask that they put a vent cap on to prevent future occurences.:)

Jeffrey Makiel
08-21-2006, 9:47 AM
This is a bit perplexing. I don't think its a plugged vent because you would have this situation with all the fixtures, especially the small p-traps serving the vanity and sink. It's easy to check. Have somebody flush another toilet or drain a tub to see if you notice sudden drop.

I'm guessing it's the toilet itself. In the past, toilets were pretty simple. Now, there are all kinds of features including eductor jets, pressure flushing, etc., to help provide an effective flush at low volume. The internal trap within the toilet may have a feature that is not working properly.

-Jeff

Bill Webber
08-21-2006, 10:02 AM
This is a bit perplexing. I don't think its a plugged vent because you would have this situation with all the fixtures, especially the small p-traps serving the vanity and sink. It's easy to check. Have somebody flush another toilet or drain a tub to see if you notice sudden drop.

I'm guessing it's the toilet itself. In the past, toilets were pretty simple. Now, there are all kinds of features including eductor jets, pressure flushing, etc., to help provide an effective flush at low volume. The internal trap within the toilet may have a feature that is not working properly.

-Jeff

I'm thinking if the vent were plugged it would siphon out immediately. It doesn't. When flushed it appears to work normally. Additionally, this toilet dumps into the end of a horizaontal run in the basement. Just downstream from that point is where the pump-up from the basement enters. If the vent were plugged when that pump-up kicks in it would suck the whole upstairs out.

Jeff, you are talking about gizmos in the toilets and I think that is where the problem lies. In the old toilets there is simply a cast-in-place trap. Too simple. In those old units a hole in the trap would simply leak everywhere. Guess I'll google a new toilet and see if they somehow work so differently.

Bill W.

Ben Roman
08-21-2006, 10:21 AM
Sounds like a plugged vent to me.

Ben

Ray Bersch
08-21-2006, 12:04 PM
Bill,
Toilets are pretty simple devices even with all the new gizmo's used to reduce water usage. There is one way in (well, two) and one way out. Unless the toilet is cracked, waste water will not flow out until the level in the bowl (the flush) is sufficient to allow it to flow out. So, you may have a crack in the china that is unseen and allows water to flow down the waste pipe - it happens. Water saving devices are all designed to provide more flush with less water and are installed above the bowl, so there is no way for them to take water from the bowl. There just ain't no connection between the two. So how do you find out if there is a crack? You might be lucky because you said you have an ejector pump, which means you have a holding tank. If you can inspect the water in the tank, try adding a bunch of food coloring to the troubled bowl then see if you can detect that color in your holding tank - otherwise just replace the toilet and be done with it - or read on.

I assume that you do not observe this with any other toilet in the house and that all toilets are the same brand and model. I bring up the brand/model issue because different brands and different models within the same brand may have different "normal" water levels in the bowl. I will also assume that you feel the low water level is interfering with the function of the toilet, like it is too low to properly cover solids. Step back and check these out. (Ain't broke, don't fix it.) Or, do you feel that the water level is too low to seal off sewer gasses? That should be easy to determine by simply looking at the toilet from the side - toilets are just big traps so the proper water level is easy to estimate - and if this is the case, you must find the problem.

So, if the toilet is not cracked, I go for a clogged vent or a clogged waste line somewhere that is covering a vent. Or, maybe no vent or insufficient vents- this is a new house to you? - it is a possibility in today's construction world. Yes, a normal flush may be experienced even without a vent because the water may not seal off the waste pipe as it is flushed. Or, a vent may not be totally clogged. Rather, it may be just restricted. Remember, too, that with a two story home and several baths, you should have several vents in your system. If you do not then there is a good chance that insufficient venting is causing the problem. So, when your ejector pump operates (and these pumps operate with vigor) it may be causing a slight vacuum that pulls water from that particular bowl or from other p traps as well, you just don't see it.

I once found a vent in an attic that was not taken through the roof during construction and was actually capped off - go fig'er. Another time I had an inspector spot a bath that had two of the three fixtures attached to the vent and one not - musta been a Monday morning job.

Now, what was the question?:rolleyes:
Ray

Bill Webber
08-21-2006, 1:07 PM
Bill,
Toilets are pretty simple devices even with all the new gizmo's used to reduce water usage. There is one way in (well, two) and one way out. Unless the toilet is cracked, waste water will not flow out until the level in the bowl (the flush) is sufficient to allow it to flow out. So, you may have a crack in the china that is unseen and allows water to flow down the waste pipe - it happens. Water saving devices are all designed to provide more flush with less water and are installed above the bowl, so there is no way for them to take water from the bowl. There just ain't no connection between the two. So how do you find out if there is a crack? You might be lucky because you said you have an ejector pump, which means you have a holding tank. If you can inspect the water in the tank, try adding a bunch of food coloring to the troubled bowl then see if you can detect that color in your holding tank - otherwise just replace the toilet and be done with it - or read on.
The problem toilet drops from the second floor to a horizontal line that runs at the basement ceiling and then to the septic tank. There's an ejector pump for the basement facilities that only pumps up into this horizontal line, so it is not filled from the upstairs toilet.


I assume that you do not observe this with any other toilet in the house and that all toilets are the same brand and model....
Correct. And as far as I can tell no other water handling activities in the house has any causal effect.


I will also assume that you feel the low water level is interfering with the function of the toilet, like it is too low to properly cover solids. Step back and check these out. (Ain't broke, don't fix it.) Or, do you feel that the water level is too low to seal off sewer gasses? That should be easy to determine by simply looking at the toilet from the side - toilets are just big traps so the proper water level is easy to estimate - and if this is the case, you must find the problem.
It is too low to cover solids and too low to seal.


So, if the toilet is not cracked, I go for a clogged vent or a clogged waste line somewhere that is covering a vent. Or, maybe no vent or insufficient vents- this is a new house to you? - it is a possibility in today's construction world. Yes, a normal flush may be experienced even without a vent because the water may not seal off the waste pipe as it is flushed. Or, a vent may not be totally clogged. Rather, it may be just restricted. Remember, too, that with a two story home and several baths, you should have several vents in your system. If you do not then there is a good chance that insufficient venting is causing the problem. So, when your ejector pump operates (and these pumps operate with vigor) it may be causing a slight vacuum that pulls water from that particular bowl or from other p traps as well, you just don't see it.
Yes, the place is new to me (and not particularly well constructed. The drain for the second floor washer was not connected to the main... good thing we didn't use it!) The ejector pump doesn't enter into the equation, as discussed above.


Now, what was the question?:rolleyes:
Ray
IF there were no vent, say from the toilet all the way to the septic tank, the bowl would siphon empty on the flush, and then you might even get air bubbles coming back from the tank.

This toilet flushes completely normally. Flush, gone, bowl fills, tank fills, all quiet. Over the next 3 to 4 hours the bowl empties to below the seal point. I guess I'm looking for some theoretical venting explanation for the particular symptoms I've described. And I don't mean to sound argumentative, I'm just no seeing how a plugged vent would produce this kind of symptom. (BTW, I've tried running lots of water through the adjacent sink and shower with no effect on these symptoms)

I'd opt for the defective toilet. If that is the case it has to be a crack between the front of the trap to the back of the trap without some other exit. A crack in any other place would produce a leak bypassing the seal at the floor and show up in the first floor ceiling.

Anyway, tell me how the plugged vent can produce my 3 to 4 hour draining symptom. I'd like to get as close to knowing what is going on as possible before I pull the toilet out for inspection.

Bill W.

Cliff Rohrabacher
08-21-2006, 3:27 PM
I'd agree with the folks about the Vent issue.

There may be a plugged vent or a vent too far away.

A company called Studor sells air admittance valves that are supposed to be the bees knees. Fitting pipes from 1/2" upo tp 4"

They ven internally letting air in but letting nothing out.

If you have to replace it take a long hard look at TOTO toilets. They are pricey but they are exceptional.
Discounted here:: http://www.toiletwarehouse.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=5

Jeffrey Makiel
08-21-2006, 3:34 PM
Check with your local building department first before installing this device. They are not allowed in my town.
-Jeff :)

Don Baer
08-21-2006, 5:29 PM
I had a toilet that wouldn't maintain its level after it had filled and I found that the flapper valve was not seating properly The piece of porcelin that the flapper was suppose to seat was not perfectly smooth. I was going to replace the tolet and was at the Borg looking at replacement when I discovered that they make a little gasket that is self adhesive that fits onto the portion of the tank where the flapper seats. It was only a few bucks so I decided to give it a try. I drained the tank, installed the gasket and the prolem went away. thats was several years ago. When I sold the house last month it was still good to go. :D

Ray Bersch
08-21-2006, 8:59 PM
Anyway, tell me how the plugged vent can produce my 3 to 4 hour draining symptom. I'd like to get as close to knowing what is going on as possible before I pull the toilet out for inspection.Bill W.

Well, Bill, you sufficiently shot down most of my theories so I guess we go with a cracked toilet.

Actually, the slow loss of water from a toilet bowl is one common symptom of a clogged vent. There is seldom a perfect vacuum and demands on the waste lines by other fixtures may cause interment siphon action. Gurgles and such are also a symptom - these happen when a sufficiently large volume of water fills the entire waste line. In your case, when the flushed water reaches the bend in the basement there could be a gulp for air, you just can't notice it. There may be a fixture down stream, such as another toilet, that may cause a momentary demand for air and results in pulling a small amount of water from your toilet before its gets enough air from within the system. By the way, running water from an adjacent sink may not cause problems - try filling the sink and letting it out - that could be telling - better yet, if there is a tub, fill it and try. In my kitchen here in Maine there was no vent at all (summer house, summer rules, I guess) and there were no symptoms! Found it when we remodeled so I added one, no difference. Go figger.

Perhaps I should wander down your way and help scope out the problem - you can pay me with that sweet router setup you are selling;)

Good luck and keep us informed.
Ray

Randy Meijer
08-22-2006, 3:04 AM
I saw an episode of "This Old House" that dealt with a problem like yours. As I recall, the symptoms were identical to yours and the cause "WAS" a clogged vent. Unless you have a house with a very steep pitched roof, I'd take a water hose to the roof and flush out the stacks that are in the neighborhood of the problem toilet. Turn the water on and ram the hose as far down the stack as you can. If you have a sewer snake, I would run that down the vent, too. If that doesn't work, then I would look a little closer at the possibility of a cracked toilet.


Any possibility you can send the family away for half a day and eliminate all water usage in the house? If it is a vent problem, you should not be loosing any water if no other water is being introduced into the waste system and the ejector pump is off. If there is a cracked toilet, you will lose water regardless.


My guess is a clogged vent.

Bill Webber
08-22-2006, 10:19 AM
Any possibility you can send the family away for half a day and eliminate all water usage in the house? If it is a vent problem, you should not be loosing any water if no other water is being introduced into the waste system and the ejector pump is off. If there is a cracked toilet, you will lose water regardless.


My guess is a clogged vent.

Well, we are only there on weekends, so yes it continues with no water use whatsoever. The roof is 12/12 and three stories up so I'm not gonna do that any more. But getting to the vent in the attic is pretty easy, just cut it and put it back together with a coupling. Removing a toilet is a nuisance but pretty easy, too.

I'm just disappointed all you experienced woodworkers couldn't get a little more scientific! :p

I'll let you know what I find (and I hope I will be able to explain it)

Bill W.

Ray Bersch
08-22-2006, 1:13 PM
Hey, Bill, you got a dog????

Bill Webber
10-15-2006, 9:24 PM
For closure, or FWIW, after a week away from the place, I found the trap in the toilet completely dry. Now, I know how siphoning can work, but siphoning cannot siphon the trap dry. Though I can't figure how or why, I'm figuring there must be a crack there somewhere.

I cleaned the bottom of the trap with 400 grit emory paper and cleaned up with acetone. I then poured in some thin epoxy. Two days later I filled it with water again. It's been working fine for two weeks. I don't know how long the epoxy will work, but I'm pretty certain what the problem is/was.

I don't know whether I should be angry because this American Standard toilet had a leak or grateful because the leak went from the trap to the drain and didn't cause any other problems. :confused:

Ben Grunow
10-15-2006, 10:16 PM
Just for general info, I just (finally- with the sewer camera man) diagnosed a toilet with the same problem you have. It would flush normally and the water would slowly siphon down to the point where sewer gases were allowed into the room and eventually evaporate dry (the bath was never used-it is the in the 3rd guest room of a 13700 sf house with 11 baths-yes really). The problem turned out to be from a blocked vent but not from the usual nest in the pipe.

THe room is on a slab and the piping under the slab had settled over time causing a low point that left a 2' section of the main line full of water. THis section happenend to be where the tub and sink TY's were and the toilet was vented through the sink (wet venting allowed in CT). So the outlet pipe (main) was blocked and the vent was blocked. Pretty cool huh.

Now to break the new to the good doctor (homeowner) that one of his marble baths has an appointment with my Hilti aresenal. Oh joy.

donnie wood
10-15-2006, 10:40 PM
If you can get on the roof, then you can stop the vent up and see if that makes a difference. That could tell you if the vent is working.

Dennis Peacock
10-15-2006, 11:09 PM
Of course you can always replace the toilet with a brand spankin' new OutHouse with all the modern items like real toilet paper and maybe even a flashlight to outhouse use at night. :D :p :p

Rob Russell
10-16-2006, 8:43 AM
FYI, if you just bought the model home - that toilet is under warranty from American Standard. They will replace the whole unit which is what I'd do. Have your builder's plumber do the work - that way you don't have to worry about the crack spreading in the future and starting to leak again.

DAMHIKT.

Rob

Jerry Olexa
10-19-2006, 11:58 PM
I'm with Rob. Replace the toilet and then you can sleep at night. Probably guaranteed and if not, not a lot of $ to buy a new one ,IMHO.