Speaking of installed copper air line.

[Bart Leetch]

I guess I should have labeled it PVC Or copper & it would have lots of answers.:D :eek:

I just talked to my plumber about the different ratings of copper pipe K,L,M that we have been talking about here on SMC. He said that the M was plenty heavy enough for home wood shop air plumbing. He has had 120' of M in his shop for years with no one problem.

[Bart Leetch]

One more try.

[David Duke]

Don't really know what your looking for here Bart, your plumber may be right about type "M" being being fine for home use I wouldn't argue the point with him. If it were me however I would use type "L" if for no other reason is that in the few times I have used the "M", it seemed to "dent" rather easily when the "L" didn't and in most home shops you wouldn't be talking no more than 30-50 $ difference at the most. I'm sure others will be able to give the PSI rating to you don't know myself.

[Bart Leetch]

My installation will run around the end & 1 side of my shop above cabinets & shelves & only stick out about a foot to get to the hose reel very little chance of it getting hit with anything.

[JayStPeter]

I went with the heavier stuff also. I didn't find the extra cost objectionable, so why not. I'm sure the lighter stuff is fine though.

Jay

[Jim Becker]

I did type L. A little heavier and also what I need to use for repairs around the house due to our acidic water...the scraps always come in handy over time.

[George Robin]

I'm not sure of the proper designations. However, I used the thickest-wall copper that Lowes had on hand. I use it all the time with 120 PSI and no issues.
I installed them about 2-1/2 years ago. Still work well.
HTH
George

[tod evans]

bart, and others, i fail to see the reasoning to deviate from the tried-n-true black iron pipe? cost wise it`s just about a wash nowadays and spinning a wrench isn`t much more dificult that using a torch so what`s the allure of using copper or even various forms of plastic? tod

[Ken Garlock]

The Copper website (http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/cth/tables/cthindex_table.htm)has the standards for the 3 popular types of copper tubing, types K, L, M. I would not use M for any compressed air applications, as it only provides a safety factor of 2+, whereas type L gives you a factor of 3+. Drawn copper tubing is about half again better than the annealed type.

When we built I specified type L for all water supply lines.

[Chris Padilla]

I'm waiting for type J to come out....

[Alan Schaffter]

Bart, look at the ratings in the Copper Tube Handbook (see earlier post)- K, L, and M grade are all plenty strong enough in drawn or annealed copper unless you are using a scuba compressor! I think 1/2" of the thin stuff has a working pressure of over 400 psi (depends on temp of course). That is working pressure, burst pressure is even higher. I have used whatever I could get for my last shop and my new shop and run it at 175psi with no problems. Unless your runs are where you might hit it with a hatchet I wouldn't be concerned about the thin-walled stuff denting either. If you do pierce it you'll just get a leak that is easily repaired with a coupling.

How are things up on the rock? What is the status of the NAS with the impending demise of the EA-6B? Are they going to put the EF-18s up there? Will Oak Harbor survive if the Navy pulls out?

[Luther Oswalt]

The Copper website (http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/cth/tables/cthindex_table.htm)has the standards for the 3 popular types of copper tubing, types K, L, M. I would not use M for any compressed air applications, as it only provides a safety factor of 2+, whereas type L gives you a factor of 3+. Drawn copper tubing is about half again better than the annealed type.

When we built I specified type L for all water supply lines.
Ken,
That's a good reference site ... thanks ...
Leo

[Kyle Kraft]

Tod,

The allure of non-ferrous air piping, is IMO, its non-rusting characteristics. I'm with you all the way on ease of cutting, threading, etc. I've installed miles of black pipe at my previous employer.

[Bart Leetch]

I'm going with type M the plumber said his has done fine for years. Mine is all protected by cabinets & shelving accept where it comes out to the hose reel. After all it isn't like type M is just barely enough. I run my system a 125 PSI or less most of the time between 60 psi & 100 PSI. I've never understood the mentality if this is more than enough than 1 to 3 times better in grade or size is going to be even better. Better for what? It won't get the air there any faster & at the temperature it runs at I'll be more than again the strength that I need. Plus I don't have a plumbing supply house handy or anything closer than maybe if I'm lucky 60 miles round trip. We are only talking 30' of pipe at the most. I won't be spraying with it & when I use the sand blaster I'll hook directly to the compressor with a hose & run it outside.

Now if you really want to help me my system will have a hose going up from the compressor to the ceiling & the pipe will go on the ceiling along the wall about 10' straight ahead & make 90 degree turn at the corner to the left & run about 12' to 15' on the ceiling along the wall & make another left out about 3'-4' & hook to the hose reel via another short piece of hose. Where & how do I put a low point drain in this? Its my understanding that a low point drain is or my be the lowest point in the line with a valve to open & expel the water. Is this true? Can someone provide a picture? My copper line will come out over a
24" deep shelf at the last 90 degree going to the hose reel, but just before that there is a gap between the 2 shelves where I could drop down for a low point drain. I could slope the line as much as 1 foot drop in 12' to between the 2 shelves & then go back up & on to the elbow turning toward the hose reel. Will this work or should I plan on a drain some how just before the compressor hooks to the line?

Sorry if I came across a little gruff!!! But I see this ideology all the time on most forums of if this product will do the job just fine no problems but 2 or 3 times better in grade or size or different color will do the job better. I have a living example in my plumbers shop. I believe in my plumber my experience with him over the years has shown his education & judgment to be sound.:) :D :)

[Steve Jenkins]

Bart, can you just put a slight slope on entire run so it will drain back to the comp? that would work fine.

[Russ Filtz]

Bart, the 2-3 time factor is usually termed a "safety factor" in engineering. This is to allow variances in all manner of things, from actual material property variations, to installation tolerances/errors, to long term degradation/fatigue. Yes, you can get by with 1-2 factor of safety for some things, whereas for other things (like holding up concrete panels in a tunnel) it would be foolish.

The small factor for copper should be fine. If you have a blowout, you might get a start, but probably not injured unless you were standing with your face right next to it. It'll just cost money to fix. But for PVC, I'd want to use a huge safety factor if I even tried it.

I think bridge builders use factors WAY higher than 2 or 3 to allow for decades of rusting in their steel members. Just an example of how you have to be flexible in thinking on what the calculations or tables say will work initially.

[Rick Lizek]

http://www.tptools.com/statictext/airline-piping-diagram.pdf
Here's a basic diagram to follow. I would pitch it back to the tank and not worry about a drain at the end of the line. On big systems the airline would form a big loop so the last guy on the line wouldn't get an air shortage from air usage before him.

[Bart Leetch]

Just to give everyone an idea what I am trying to do here are a few shots. You notice I have cords everywhere that is going to change I'll be having more conduit run & more plugs for 220, 110 & plugs on the ceiling to plug lights into.

The pictures show the compressor & cabinets & shelves that I will be running the air line over. It will be hard to slope the line. One of the ways I see to slope it back toward the compressor even if it doesn't go all the way back to the compressor is to drop down on the wall behind the band-saw to the left in front of the cabinet that has the fan on the door & slope back from the other side of where the orange tube to my table-saw guard is & have the drain on the wall next to the left of the cabinet. Phew I hope you all followed that. I know what I am trying to say & it almost confused me.

[Al Willits]

-----------------------------------------------inlet
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
tee........ l------- outlet
l
l
l
== cap or drain

Not sure how this will look, but here's a decent way to install drain valves off of drip tee's, sorry but my coral Draw program is at home or I'd make a better picture.....once I figured Coral out again...:)

Fwiw K and L is used in almost all the air lines I'ved seem where copper is used, plus least wises in Minn they'll make code.

Al

[Bart Leetch]

A special thanks to all those that put up with me here. You all usually have an answer that fits the needs of me & my shop. Thanks a lot.:)

[Steve Aiken]

There was a short article in the last American Woodworker magazine (#123 September 2006) called, "Plumb your shop with air." It talks about using 1/2 inch I.D. rubber hose rated for 250 psi. The author made up copper T fittings, and used the rubber hose to supply air to the copper drops. It looked like an interesting design, but I haven't comparison shopped for prices of copper vs. rubber hose yet.

Steve

[Steve Clardy]

I've got several of the cheap $10.00 3/8" hose that won't coil up good, in the trusse's overhead, dropping down to various places. Workbench, etc.

Cheap, easy to run.

[Bart Leetch]

I've got several of the cheap $10.00 3/8" hose that won't coil up good, in the trusse's overhead, dropping down to various places. Workbench, etc.

Cheap, easy to run.

AH a man after my own heart...

Only problem I got no trusses to hang one in.:eek: :D

So a little copper a little solder & it'll be all fixed up.

It'll be a while but if I can focus a camera on it I post pics.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Tod,

The allure of non-ferrous air piping, is IMO, its non-rusting characteristics. I'm with you all the way on ease of cutting, threading, etc. I've installed miles of black pipe at my previous employer. Yeah, and I have poured thousands of cubic yards of concrete, but don't intend to work that hard again.( I own cutting and threading tools ) Copper is easy to install, or cut in a new drop when needed, and doesn't RUST! Be sure to slope the pipe AWAY from the compressor, with a drain at far end. If sloped back towards the compressor, each air usage will return moisture back up the line. When sloped away from compressor, each air usage moves moisture towards the drain, located at far end of line. Take offs should be from the TOP of the pipe.

[Ed Breen]

Hey Steve,
Thanks for the tip. I've got a pile of 3/8" hose laying around. Was gonna use it for heating but SWMBO demanded a woodburner. I've been torn between copper & black pipe, but the rubber will be a lot cheaper.
Ed

[Norman Hitt]

Don't really know what your looking for here Bart, your plumber may be right about type "M" being being fine for home use I wouldn't argue the point with him. If it were me however I would use type "L" if for no other reason is that in the few times I have used the "M", it seemed to "dent" rather easily when the "L" didn't and in most home shops you wouldn't be talking no more than 30-50 $ difference at the most. I'm sure others will be able to give the PSI rating to you don't know myself.

I kinda prefer the L also, Buuuuuuut........out of curiosity, while I was at a building center today, (yesterday, now):rolleyes: I looked at the prices, and they have REALLY gone up recently. the 3/4" L was $39.69 per 10' joint, and the M was either $23.63 or $26.63 per 10' joint, (can't remember for sure on the M). Sure wish I could have bought some last year for my shop instead of making payments on some of the medical community that I/we have been patronizing's new multi million dollar homes.:(

[Mike Kelly]

Bart, check out this website and click on "Air Line Hook-up" for some ways to arrange for outlets, filters and drains. It is for black metal, but should give you some ideas.

http://www.tptools.com/statictext/tech_notes.asp?mscssid=VVVNGK85K4QP9LK2QF2WWSTLCN6 GC735