HELP sealing copper pipe unions... [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

David Rose

08-17-2006, 5:08 AM

I've spent the past 5 days putting together all my rigid copper pipe for my shop air. Whew! There are over 300 solder joints.

Only two (found so far) soldered leaks and they were biggies and easy to find and repair. I've found three screw connector leaks that teflon tape will not seal, but they are to aluminum (drier and regulators) and steel (blast cabinet). I will try pipe dope instead of tape tomorrow. Without the unions, I could not be redoing these easily.

But... All 8 of my unions leak seriously! :( The faces all look good and clean on the easily accessed ones... I have tried polishing the faces, and the seating ring appears to go all the way around. I have read that you can over tighten them. I've tried putting everything I "have" on them with 14" wrenches after trying lower pressure to tighten them. Other statements are "tighten them with 2 foot cheaters". I think I could break them that way! I have not tried pipe dope or tape on the faces, which some say "can" work.

The big compressor is here, but not wired yet, so I am charging (for leak testing) with my small one. It will drop from 100 psi to 0 in an hour or so.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

David

Dave Richards

08-17-2006, 6:55 AM

The unions are compression fittings? I chase leaks on compression fittings frequently at work although I'm sure they are much smaller fittings than you're using. I always start with just a firm tightening but I don't wrench hard. Then I pressurize the line and squirt a bit of soapy water on the joint. Then I tighten it until the bubbles quit coming out. Sometimes I find that no matter how tight I go, it won't seal. I pitch the cone and try again with a new one. I haven't found a better way. Most of the time this is for those portable liquid O2 tanks which are a pain because it seems to make the aluminum parts brittle. fortunately the cones are brass and they don't seem to mind the cold.

Rob Russell

08-17-2006, 7:45 AM

David,

Our plumber told me that he wouldn't use teflon tape on any threaded pneumatic connection, in case any threads of the material broke off and lodged in the air tool. He always uses pipe dope.

Rob

Kyle Kraft

08-17-2006, 9:12 AM

Loctite PST pipe dope in the "toothpaste" style tube. Won't foul your system and will seal up most anything. Try a thin film on the faces of your unions and then tighten. I have never had to use cheaters on copper unions to get them to seal.

No I don't work for Loctite either:D

Mike Cutler

08-17-2006, 10:15 AM

David.

Is this an NPT to NPT fitting? or is it a compression fitting?

If it is NPT. Take it apart, clean it and apply some thread sealant to it. The Loctite PST 580 is OK, but I would go with the Loctite hydraulic thread sealant. I don't use PST anymore at work. I use Grafoil Tape, but I don't think it is available to the public. Another good product for low pressure applications is TFE Free, by Cajon.

If they are compression fittings. replace them, all parts. Overtightening compression fittings causes a deformation of the ferrule and the seating surface. If they are brass 3/4 of a turn past fingertight should seal them. Then do what Dave suggested and leak check the fittings before tighteneing.Unfortunately the compression nut and ferrule is harder than the copper pipe. You may have to replace the section of copper pipe also. Sorry.

Kent Fitzgerald

08-17-2006, 11:03 AM

I recently replaced the water pressure regulator in our home, and the union that came with the new reg had an O-ring between the mating faces. I've never seen this before, but it seems to work quite well - the input is at about 100 PSI, and it's tight. You might be able to do the same.

Cliff Rohrabacher

08-17-2006, 11:48 AM

I put dope on my unions when they won't obey.

Lee Schierer

08-17-2006, 12:56 PM

I did a long study of piping leaks on equipment we used to build at a company I used to work for. What we found was that teflon tape isn't a sealant. It si a thread lubricant which may work, but more often than not does not. We found the most successful sealant was Loctite pipe sealant. It worked 99% of the time, even if the fitting was adjsuted after the initial assembly. We reduced our leaks per machine from 3 per machine to less than 1 leak in 50 machines just by eliminating teflon tape and switching to Loctite pipe sealant.

Teflon tape leaves shreds in the threads and can clog pneumatic equipment like valves and regulators.

We also found that certain brands of fittings weren't worth the cheap price. We stayed with the name brand fittings (Swagelock and Parker) and although we paid more, we had far fewer problems.

Al Willits

08-17-2006, 1:00 PM

I'd make sure the unions are rated for the pressure your dealing with, then I'd try the soap thing and start to tighten till it either quit leaking or felt they were gonna/did break, tight to each of us is not the same, the 3/4" unions I used on the black pipe required the use of a 18" and 24" pipe wrench to quit leaking at 180 psi.
Most of them unions will take a lot more torquing than you think...unless your name is Arnold.. :)

If they won't stop leaking, toss em and try another manufactures union.

I have used Retorseal pipe dope on a few unions to seal them, not to fond of it though, they should seal with out a compound on them....famous last words...:)

Al

David Rose

08-17-2006, 4:34 PM

Dave: The unions are 1" soldered copper. That makes replacing more of a pain, but still doable. These things are relatively expensive at about $14 a pop. And yes, some of them came from the Borg. Others came from a plumbing supply, but I didn't notice the brand.

Rob: I suspected that the teflon might gum up the works. I try to keep it away from the very edge, but I'm sure that a strip here and there gets away. Everyone is recommending the Loc Tite. I bought some Oatey Great White pipe joint compound with teflon last night. Yes, the Borg is about I all have access to after work. :(

Kyle: another vote for Loc Tite. :rolleyes:

Mike: Fittings are neither NPT nor compression. They are soldered to the pipe. Only the smaller stepped down fittings are NPT. The unions are my biggest headache at this point. They are leaking on the faces.

Kent: I don't think my problem is unique at least to some extent. Almost all the unions I found online have o-rings.

Cliff: That will be my next step. Hallelujah! The brass to copper NPT fitting that I just tried is holding (so far) with the Oatey dope.

Lee: Everything you are saying is probably right. Some of it will have to be done obviously. I'm going to remove all the tape. It's amazing how many fine "hairs" are left in the female section. :( I hope to not have to replace all the unions, though I suspect that they are part of the problem.

Al: I have no idea as to the pressure rating on these unions. :eek: I suspect they are designed for water line. But they start bubbling at 10 pounds of air so... I'm not Arnold, so maybe a cheater will help. I'm sure it will "help", just not sure it will seal.

Thanks all.

David

The unions are compression fittings? I chase leaks on compression fittings frequently at work although I'm sure they are much smaller fittings than you're using. I always start with just a firm tightening but I don't wrench hard. Then I pressurize the line and squirt a bit of soapy water on the joint. Then I tighten it until the bubbles quit coming out. Sometimes I find that no matter how tight I go, it won't seal. I pitch the cone and try again with a new one. I haven't found a better way. Most of the time this is for those portable liquid O2 tanks which are a pain because it seems to make the aluminum parts brittle. fortunately the cones are brass and they don't seem to mind the cold.

David Rose

08-17-2006, 6:00 PM

The thread sealer had no effect on the union faces, which is what I sort of expected. I cleaned off the sealer and "whomped" down on it with extended handles. One union sealed!! Another one got worse. A third one made a rather loud pop and leaks worse. :mad: I tore the second one down where I could get to the heavier face. It had two or three little nicks that did not flatten out when I cranked it down. Obviously, those would leak. I lightly filed an even number of strokes around it and finished it with abrasive pads. It will allllmost seal now. I'm waiting for the air to leak down some before blowing the valves and scaring off customers. Then I'll check the one that popped.

Btw, I am getting there slowly. The small fittings with NPT are now sealing with the dope where the tape failed.
From what Lee said, I suspect that the tape must just reduce friction in hopes that the brass will finally seal. That might explain why my brass to brass NPT threads sealed with tape, but brass to aluminum and brass to steel did not.

David

David Rose

08-17-2006, 10:17 PM

The brass to steel leaked again. I took the fitting out of the circuit, put it in the vice and gave something a chance to break. Nothing did. And *that* fitting seems to have sealed. One of the "previously sealed" unions has a slow leak.

When I ran PVC 30 years ago, I considered NO leaks acceptable. Of course, at the time I did not realise that PVC was not PC. Now that I am trying to "conform" to what IS acceptable, I find leaks everywhere. I left a call to my plumber, but he has better things to do than baby sit an amateur copper line fitter. I thought I had better things to do also. :confused:

I am now wishing I had given more serious consideration to the "prohibitively expensive" aluminum system. With about $1000 in copper and 70 hours, it is looking like a better solution. I guess I can post to the testimonials in a regretful way... I have no testimonies that the aluminum works, but I would recommend it over copper. Steel has its own problems.

David, who can salvage about 1/100th of his investment in copper...

Al Willits

08-17-2006, 10:39 PM

Dave can you just lop them unions off and solder in couplings?
I'm a little confused as to why you wouldn't do that in the first place.
If you ever have to disasemble the copper, just heat it and pull it apart.

I work in HVAC and when ever we use copper on AC lines we solder it to prevent leaks.

Al

"Gary Brewer"

08-17-2006, 11:05 PM

I worked for ten years doing a side job of managing an apartment complex when I was young. I had to occasionally install commercial water heaters that had 1" copper supply and return pipes. I also thought it was a good idea to install copper unions to facilitate future changes. I now believe that it wasn't worth it and would now install a coupling rather than a union. I also had a problem with leaks in the beginning. What I found was that if the two soldered pieces weren't aligned just right it would leak. There is play in the soldering of the two halves of the copper union. If they are not aligned just right the joint will leak! I fixed this by tightening the threaded ring to the union first then soldering the two joints. This assured a perfect alignment and stopped the leaks. Also if you apply too much solder you can get it on the two surfaces that seal and also cause a leak. There were no o-rings on the ones I used. They were all brass and really are a form of compression sealing. The threaded part just keeps the two halves together. If they do not come together on exactly the same plane then it will leak no matter how much pipe dope you use or teflon tape nor how much you tighten the threaded ring. I could explain it more geometric terms if you I didn't make sense to you. I also agree with the writer who said to remove the unions and put couplings in. But if you want to make the unions work since you've invested the money and time try the above. You you'll have to remove and resolder.

Terry Hatfield

08-17-2006, 11:17 PM

Might I suggest............:D

David Rose

08-17-2006, 11:26 PM

Al, the unions were in there primarily to allow me to build the system in sections then set it all up. Also, they were to allow me to take out things like a filter/drier and a toilet paper filter. The toilet paper filter is a real "leaker", so I am glad about that at least. When I think about it, I guess the unions were mostly to help me with components with which I had doubt.

However, I have spent much more time trying to get the unions to seal than a few "unsolder/resolder" sessions. I had about two failures in all my 300+ solder joints. EVERY union but one (of only 8) is leaking.

The other place where I used unions is where lines ran between two walls and were "tight" between them. I could have hung them out from the walls. Also, I had connections that were tight to walls or ceilings. I could have moved them out also. I really hate to start all over with design, but I am not getting far otherwise.

When I spoke to the man at Lowes in "piping" about things sealing, he said that they would take anything back if it failed. Hmmm... I don't like doing things that way, but this may be the time.

David

Dave can you just lop them unions off and solder in couplings?
I'm a little confused as to why you wouldn't do that in the first place.
If you ever have to disasemble the copper, just heat it and pull it apart.

I work in HVAC and when ever we use copper on AC lines we solder it to prevent leaks.

Al

David Rose

08-17-2006, 11:30 PM

Terry Hatfield

08-17-2006, 11:33 PM

Mr. Hatfield, I have lost all faith in that stuff now. EVERY threaded connection that failed (with teflon tape) has been corrected with pipe dope. I have most of a roll of 1/2" and 3/4". You are welcome to them.

D

Mr. Rose,

I was trying to be humorus....duh on your part. Lighten up. That is a roll of duct tape. :D :D

BTW...I hear you spent your kids inheritance with the boys at Pneusource. :D

t

David Rose

08-18-2006, 12:33 AM

Gary, some of my lines are not perfectly aligned. Some seem to be pretty straight. Most of the time I soldered with both halves of the union assembled. There was still some stress between pipes frequently. I may try resoldering some joints or I may just try taking them out. I like the idea of unions for removal of components. I am still struggling with whether it is worth it now that I've found that pipe dope holds (the threaded pieces) most every time vs teflon tape. I understand what you mean. I did not build each section on the last section through the union. Well, I did that somewhat. But much of it was just built in sections that were built to "fit" that last. And it doesn't seem that was aligned well enough. Ugh!

David

I worked for ten years doing a side job of managing an apartment complex when I was young. I had to occasionally install commercial water heaters that had 1" copper supply and return pipes. I also thought it was a good idea to install copper unions to facilitate future changes. I now believe that it wasn't worth it and would now install a coupling rather than a union. I also had a problem with leaks in the beginning. What I found was that if the two soldered pieces weren't aligned just right it would leak. There is play in the soldering of the two halves of the copper union. If they are not aligned just right the joint will leak! I fixed this by tightening the threaded ring to the union first then soldering the two joints. This assured a perfect alignment and stopped the leaks. Also if you apply too much solder you can get it on the two surfaces that seal and also cause a leak. There were no o-rings on the ones I used. They were all brass and really are a form of compression sealing. The threaded part just keeps the two halves together. If they do not come together on exactly the same plane then it will leak no matter how much pipe dope you use or teflon tape nor how much you tighten the threaded ring. I could explain it more geometric terms if you I didn't make sense to you. I also agree with the writer who said to remove the unions and put couplings in. But if you want to make the unions work since you've invested the money and time try the above. You you'll have to remove and resolder.

David Rose

08-18-2006, 1:55 AM

Ohhhhhh... Mr. t, I get it. Yeah, I DO need to lighten up. I don't have time to get any dt except at the L store. I know that their stuff won't work. Who carries QUALITY duct tape? I might try that. :D

No, Pneusource got the WIFE's inheritance! My intent is to let her outlive me and let her have to sort it out. No, that's not nice. OK, the kids can suffer through it. :o Tons of gold ...er copper... for someone to sell.

Yeah, I let the Pneusource guys get to me. And if I had a bit of sense I would probably have spent another fortune on the aluminum pipe. "Two hours to setup", says he... Not only did I buy the stinkin' 'pressor, but I nearly acted as a cushion on its way to the ground. No, they didn't ask me to "help". Not only that, but they sent out a guy to rebuild my porch floor before the compressor took it down to earth. Matt did the rebuilding. :) Seems like a good portion of your church got in on skinnin' this cat. :eek: :D Guess the cat needed it. They seem like a great crew. Of course, I still haven't gotten the main bill yet...

Thanks for putting them on to me... or was it me to them?

D

Mr. Rose,

I was trying to be humorus....duh on your part. Lighten up. That is a roll of duct tape. :D :D

BTW...I hear you spent your kids inheritance with the boys at Pneusource. :D

t

chester stidham

08-18-2006, 4:40 AM

try wd 40 you well be able to get them tighter a plumber friend of mine told me this trick it also works very good with fittings that have farels like angle stops. did you take all the unions apart and mix them up ? LOL. another thing you can try is making a gaskit out of an old inner tube use a little contack cement on one side to hold it in place.

Matt Warfield

08-18-2006, 6:47 AM

I would recommend scrapping the unions. As much effort as you're putting forth in getting them to seal, it's not going to be any easier to seal them when you're changing things out for service. Besides, rigid copper pipe is easy to cut if you need to take a section out and then a coupling or two to put it back in sounds like a lot less effort in the long run. Yeah, it's tough to pitch 'em at $14 a pop but it will let you sleep better at night knowing it's not leaking yet.

Matt

Terry Hatfield

08-18-2006, 7:56 AM

Yeah, I let the Pneusource guys get to me. And if I had a bit of sense I would probably have spent another fortune on the aluminum pipe. "Two hours to setup", says he... Not only did I buy the stinkin' 'pressor, but I nearly acted as a cushion on its way to the ground. No, they didn't ask me to "help". Not only that, but they sent out a guy to rebuild my porch floor before the compressor took it down to earth. Matt did the rebuilding. :) Seems like a good portion of your church got in on skinnin' this cat. :eek: :D Guess the cat needed it. They seem like a great crew. Of course, I still haven't gotten the main bill yet...

Thanks for putting them on to me... or was it me to them?

D

d,

The folks at Pneusource are a great bunch of guys. They are more than happy to take your money though. :D No better carpenter than Matt. He is a great friend. It does sound like just about my whole church go into the act.

Hope all this work and money is worth it in the end!!!!!

t

Al Willits

08-18-2006, 9:14 AM

Little late Dave, but it seems like your not making much progress, so I'll rant on again...

Dump the toilet paper filter and any other money saving devices that come out of Mother Earth News and go find a commerical paint supply house, ask them for a inline filter and water seperator that will work for what your gonna use.
Most of these can be reaired/cleaned/filter replaced by just shutting the air supply to them off and removing part of them, mine unscrew by hand, fwiw.

Go back and solder every join you can, don't need much heat with 50/50 solder and it ain't water line so if ya have some laying around, use it.
90/10 would be even better, but not sure it'd make any difference.

I used SilFos, but you need a lot of heat for that, and its way overkill...but I had it handy and I don't care to use flux if I don't have to.

Just teasing about Mother Earth News btw...:D

You have the copper and it should work just fine, remember to short a piece becomes a longer piece with just a bit of soldering.. :)

Eliminate every mechancial connection you can, then deal with what's left.
Might want to remember, if its done right, you shouldn't have to ever unsolder the lines for anything....least I can think of..

Good luck and hope it don't cost to much more, but a good air line is worth its weight in gold.

Al

David Rose

08-18-2006, 4:19 PM

Chester, they couldn't have sealed worse if I had mixed them up. Well, unless I tried to attach the wrong ends. :D

Matt, you're probably right. My plumber came by today and left me some dope that he uses before I scrap the unions. He says that they never seal for him without it, but they almost always will with it. It won't take long to find out. I'm nervous about all my fittings now. :rolleyes: "leaking... yet" ouch!

t, I've had to stop a couple of times to remind myself why I'm going through all this. And even that is not helping too much. :eek:

Al, I'm working on it as I get time, so... And you are right about no serious progress yet. Hey! The terlet paper filter was a gift from a good friend! :eek: You can't just "throw something like that away"! Besides, I had to buy him all the Chinese food he could eat... :D I have an inline filter and dessicant also. It just isn't adequate (I don't think) for the whole system. I used a low temp/high strength silver bearing soft solder called Force 44. It has a shear strength of about 28K. Boy, the plumber's goop is sure stickier than what I had. And it sealed on the first union with firm pressure and no cheaters. Hmmm... A good air line COSTS it weight in gold too! :eek: :D Third union "seems" sealed!!

I'll fill you in on progress.

Thanks again,

David

try wd 40 you well be able to get them tighter a plumber friend of mine told me this trick it also works very good with fittings that have farels like angle stops. did you take all the unions apart and mix them up ? LOL. another thing you can try is making a gaskit out of an old inner tube use a little contack cement on one side to hold it in place.

Al Willits

08-18-2006, 5:39 PM

OK, don't dump the toilet paper filter, remove the toilet paper and use it for ..er...well, you know....:D

I was gonna suggest JB Weld as a last resort, but seems the "goop" is working, and you may be able to remove that fitting sometime at a later date, with the JB Weld I have strong doubts about it ever coming apart.:D :D

Consider it a learning curve Dave, been there done that..better to get it over with now and do it right, than to have to mess with it half way though a project..sounds like your winning though, good luck and save enough money for a 12 pack anyway, you deserve it. :)

Al

David Rose

08-18-2006, 11:31 PM

Al, I prefer soft paper anyway so... :eek:

I agree about the JB Weld. I would probably tin both surfaces, screw them together, then heat til melted, if I were going that way. If there was not enough fill, that might not do it either. I was planning to just pull all the unions, take them to Lowes, and scream to bloody heaven about them. Then put in collars. I really wanted to have the option of pulling the sections (more easily) for any future changes and giving me "no stress" solder for each section. I guess it didn't help much on the last part. :o Also, many fittings are against the wall where I preferred not to try to solder.

I found some validity to the last point tonight. ALL UNIONS ARE SEALED!!!! Hallelujah! Now I am finding more solder joints that are not. :eek: Well, I think I know how to deal with them. I *think* all but one are done now.

One thing about this "learning curve" is that I think that I picked the proper profession. I believe that I safely eliminated plumbing from fields I should have persued. :D :eek:

David, who is very greatful to those who know what they are doing...

OK, don't dump the toilet paper filter, remove the toilet paper and use it for ..er...well, you know....:D

I was gonna suggest JB Weld as a last resort, but seems the "goop" is working, and you may be able to remove that fitting sometime at a later date, with the JB Weld I have strong doubts about it ever coming apart.:D :D

Consider it a learning curve Dave, been there done that..better to get it over with now and do it right, than to have to mess with it half way though a project..sounds like your winning though, good luck and save enough money for a 12 pack anyway, you deserve it. :)

Al

Ken Garlock

08-19-2006, 10:49 AM

David, a little trick I used when sweating a joint right near a wall is to place a small piece of aluminum plate behind the joint, up against the wall. Three brads, 2 along the bottom, and one at the top, will hold the the plate. I had a scrap piece about 6 inches square and around 1/8 thick that worked nicely. The aluminum will dissipate the heat quickly and thus prevent scorching the wall/paint. :)

David Rose

08-19-2006, 3:40 PM

Ken, I did basically that last night on one leak. I didn't brad it, but that is a great idea. Also, the aluminum piece that I found quickly, was just sheet metal. The wall did get pretty warm, but not nearly as hot as it could have been. :rolleyes: I will scrounge up a heavier piece if I need to do more.

I really prefer the pieces "down" where I can manipulate them as I solder. However, after cleaning, fluxing, sweating, pushing/turning the parts (still molten), then hitting each with the torch and a bit of solder "one last time", I still got a few leaks. Those were "retreated" mostly on the wall, and they are holding... so far.

David

David, a little trick I used when sweating a joint right near a wall is to place a small piece of aluminum plate behind the joint, up against the wall. Three brads, 2 along the bottom, and one at the top, will hold the the plate. I had a scrap piece about 6 inches square and around 1/8 thick that worked nicely. The aluminum will dissipate the heat quickly and thus prevent scorching the wall/paint. :)

Ken Garlock

08-19-2006, 4:24 PM

I really prefer the pieces "down" where I can manipulate them as I solder. However, after cleaning, fluxing, sweating, pushing/turning the parts (still molten), then hitting each with the torch and a bit of solder "one last time", I still got a few leaks. Those were "retreated" mostly on the wall, and they are holding... so far.
David

I discovered that technique after piecing together one wall worth of copper. On the second wall, I measured, and measured again, than then soldered the whole wall worth of copper together on the shop floor. :)
Let me suggest that once you get the solder to flow into the joint, don't mess with it, no twisting, just let the solder to its thing. This ain't pvc cement.:D ;)

David Rose

08-19-2006, 6:31 PM

Good point, Ken. I just didn't trust the capillary action in the beginning. But every joint that I pulled, was well coated. The leaky joints had small paths of oxidation. I'm sure I used too much heat much of the time. My torch does not have flow control, just auto ignite. Those cleaned easily. Also, the ones that leaked and were just reheated with a bit of solder added seem to be holding, though they make me nervous.

I built mine all on the floor or vice depending on how I needed to hold things. That was part of the reason for the unions. I ran about 120 feet along walls, through a wall and along the ceiling to another wall.

David

I discovered that technique after piecing together one wall worth of copper. On the second wall, I measured, and measured again, than then soldered the whole wall worth of copper together on the shop floor. :)
Let me suggest that once you get the solder to flow into the joint, don't mess with it, no twisting, just let the solder to its thing. This ain't pvc cement.:D ;)

CPeter James

08-19-2006, 8:32 PM

David Rose

08-19-2006, 10:05 PM

Groan... You have to drain those puppies and get them fairly dry don't you? Yes, that sounds lots worse.

Btw, I found two tiny leaks today, and there was no noticable pressure drop!!!

David

I have a couple of "space blankets" for heat control. I picked them up at a plumbing supply hpouse. I have been doing plumbing on the side for 40 years and this is the best thing I have ever come across. High torch heat on one side and cool on the other. I also keep two pressurized water fire extinguishers on hand. If you think chasing leaks and trying ti fix them in air lines is tough, try it in a heating system full of water.

CPeter

Bruce Wrenn

08-19-2006, 10:24 PM

I have a couple of "space blankets" for heat control. I picked them up at a plumbing supply hpouse. I have been doing plumbing on the side for 40 years and this is the best thing I have ever come across. High torch heat on one side and cool on the other. I also keep two pressurized water fire extinguishers on hand. If you think chasing leaks and trying ti fix them in air lines is tough, try it in a heating system full of water.

CPeterJust keep spray bottle of water handy. Before soldering close to combustables, wet area, add "space blanket", solder and then wet again. Spray bottle insides can be uses to remove water from a veretical pipe prior soldering. The brand of flux makes all the difference in making joint. Most, if not all my fellow plumbers, in this area use Lacco brand flux. Unless copper is really cruddy, you don't have to sand joints first.

Allen Bookout

08-19-2006, 11:26 PM

David,

What was the sealant that you finally ended up using that worked so well?

Thanks! Allen

David Rose

08-20-2006, 1:20 AM

RectorSeal® No. 5® I also very carefully wrapped two layers of teflon just past the contact point of the non-flat side of the union. Since that is how the plumber who loaned me the dope does in worse cases, I just treated these like "worse case" from the start.

One galvanized iron "L" from the borg would not seal with teflon and RectorSeal. I finally just pulled it. It was/will be to reduce stress from the tank to the flex line. So far, everything else is working. I wrote Motor Guard for a seal for the TP filter.

David

David,

What was the sealant that you finally ended up using that worked so well?

Thanks! Allen

Al Willits

08-20-2006, 11:02 AM

Just keep spray bottle of water handy. Before soldering close to combustables, wet area, add "space blanket", solder and then wet again. Spray bottle insides can be uses to remove water from a veretical pipe prior soldering. The brand of flux makes all the difference in making joint. Most, if not all my fellow plumbers, in this area use Lacco brand flux. Unless copper is really cruddy, you don't have to sand joints first.

With the troubles your having, not sanding the copper isn't something I'd recommend, a little oxidation makes for a poorer solder joint.
imho

Al

David Rose

08-20-2006, 7:18 PM

Bruce wasn't the one having problems, if that was the way it sounded. I think he was saying that it wasn't needed with that particular flux.

I took no chances. Though I may be in a self owned retail business, that is the only place I gamble (other than the highway). ;) I spent LOTS of time cleaning every joint inside and out. I even deburred the insides of every cut pipe to completely smooth. The deburring and cleaning then fluxing both pieces was the main thing that took so much time. But I would have done it anyway if I had used his potentially better flux. :rolleyes:

David, the non-gambler

With the troubles your having, not sanding the copper isn't something I'd recommend, a little oxidation makes for a poorer solder joint.
imho

Al

Bruce Wrenn

08-20-2006, 9:52 PM

With the troubles your having, not sanding the copper isn't something I'd recommend, a little oxidation makes for a poorer solder joint.
imho

Al Al, that is the beauty of Lacco flux, as soon as heat hits it the copper turns "bright". Really helps when you are laying on your back under a house that is so low that you have to decide-face up, or face down at the access hole.

David Rose

08-21-2006, 1:56 AM

Oh! Again I say. It is good to do various jobs to find out that you are doing the one to which you are "called". Plumbering is NOT one of those for me. :eek: :D ...on your back, under the house, face up, face down, so low, access hole, those are all terms that do not normally effect those in my field. :o And I don't think that I have ever resented what a plumber person has charged me. I'm not saying that I didn't miss a meal or two out because of it... More than once, such as the day before Thanksgiving with a broken water line, I have been greatful for how little I was charged. But that is a 'nother story. And, yeah, he did get a tip. :p

David

Al, that is the beauty of Lacco flux, as soon as heat hits it the copper turns "bright". Really helps when you are laying on your back under a house that is so low that you have to decide-face up, or face down at the access hole.