How many fluorescents for a 24x26 garage? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Chris Padilla

08-16-2006, 12:33 PM

Steve,

I say pack as many in as you can stand and then add another row! :)

Home Depot has really good prices (last I bought, 1 year ago) on T8 fluorescents (really, the ONLY type to get nowadays: low noise, cold start-up ease, etc.) in the 8' length (takes 4 4' bulbs). In my garage that is about 20 x 24, I have 3 rows of these, total of 6 strips and my goodness, then turn night into day and there isn't a shadow to be found in my garage! I also mixed 3 different color temps into my strips so that I covered the whole spectrum. Finally, I painted everything in my garage a semi-gloss exterior grade of white. Yes, the paint job was god-awful boring but my shop is bright, bright, bright!

Don Baer

08-16-2006, 12:34 PM

Steve,

I know it involes a little more work but I'd suggest you go with the double four footer instead of the 8 footer. They are far cheaper to buy and the cost of replacement tubes is also a lot less. DAMHIKT

Jeff Wright

08-16-2006, 12:40 PM

I am in the process of building my shop. My electrician recommends 8' T8 units instead of 4-foot units. Says the 8-foot units are far more reliable versus 4-foot bulb units and well worth any additional cost.

Jeff Horton

08-16-2006, 1:34 PM

I used fixtures with 4 -4' T8 bulbs. My shop it 30' wide and I centered 2 fixtures in that width. Then I spaced them roughly 8 foot side to side. It looked great! Now I wish I had put more in. I am thinking about going back and putting another fixture in between the two on each row. I still find areas that I need more light. Overall the shop looks good. It's just when you start working you notice that it isn't as bright as you though. So I say don't skimp!

BTW have you ever noticed that in commercial buildings that there they but the fixtures end to end? I realize now why.

Al Willits

08-16-2006, 2:35 PM

Although my shop/garage is an electrical nightmare right now, I believe its hard to have to many lights, I like to have several, as in 6 in my case, circuits of lights so I can control the amount of light depending on what I'm doing.

I also read many years ago that fluorescents actually blink/cycle/? many times a second (60?) and a study showed that blinking was unpleasant.
So I have a few standard light bulbs I run also....just in case they were right.

I also wired in 3 track lighting fixtures that can use a 150w flood or spot light and use them in a triangle to even more light to a particular area.

I like the 4' bulbs only because there easier to deal with, especialy disposing of them.

Al

Steve Canada

08-16-2006, 2:39 PM

Al Willits

08-16-2006, 2:53 PM

"""""
Question: For 8 fixtures, would that be two 15 amp cuircuts? Or could I put them on one?
"""""""

Maybe 2 circuits, if one needs work, you still have the other for light.

Al

Chris Padilla

08-16-2006, 3:03 PM

Wonderful. I was laying out my shop and thinking, "man, that's too many fixtures!" Looks like I was on the right track tho~

My ceilings are 9' high, I was thinking of going with eight 8' fixtures. (that's 24bulbs!) For the time being I won't be painting the walls as they are unfinished right now. Depending on cost, I may have to go down to 6 fixtures.

Question: For 8 fixtures, would that be two 15 amp cuircuts? Or could I put them on one?

Steve,

That is a straight-forward math question. I don't recall how many watts per 4' bulb (32 W, I think??). Add up all your watts, call it P. Now using good old Ohm's law, P = iV. V will be 120 V, and P is what you are going to add up from the number of lights you have. 'i' is what you want to know in order to answer your qeustion. Most likely, you are well within that range to put EVERTHING on 1 15 A circuit.

If you have room split them evenly across two circuits in case one trips, the other will still be on but this is probably overkill for most folks.

Matt Meiser

08-16-2006, 3:14 PM

I have a substantial investment in fixtures and bulbs, but the bulbs are still going strong after 2.5 years, start no matter how cold it is, and are plenty bright. The fixtures are good quaility with easily available, replaceable components such as ballasts and end clips. I'm really glad I went the way I did. Also, I'm not sure that I spent that much more than the 4-4 bulb fixtures with good bulbs.

Matt Meiser

08-16-2006, 3:18 PM

Question: For 8 fixtures, would that be two 15 amp cuircuts? Or could I put them on one?

I would put them on two regardless. What will you do for light when you have to shut one circuit off? Mine are hung with chains supplied by the manufacturer. That way I could run my ductwork without interfering. Also, I installed receptacles on the ceiling and a short cord on each fixture. The fixture can be taken down by unplugging the cord and unhooking the chains. Much easier than changing a ballast on a ladder.

If you go this route, a helpful hint is that 25' extension cords are cheap at the borgs. Even if you cut 23' off, they are cheaper than 2' of cord and a plug. Plus I sold a box of the cutoffs at a garage sale for $5, clearly marked that they were missing one end.

Cliff Rohrabacher

08-16-2006, 3:28 PM

as many as you need. That is the single most precise definitive answer.

As you age you need more light. You can add them.

I have a 4' double, high energy strip every 6 or 8 feet.

Al Killian

08-16-2006, 4:19 PM

I also read many years ago that fluorescents actually blink/cycle/? many times a second (60?) and a study showed that blinking was unpleasant.
So I have a few standard light bulbs I run also....just in case they were right.
Al

Al,
AC(Alternating Curnet)cycles at different rates depending on the voltage as far ass line voltage goes. Therefore all lights will blink 110 has 60 cycles per sec(blinks), 220 as 50 cycles per sec. Newer bulbs are better and dont their strobes are not has bad. Just firgured I exeplain this for any who didnt understand how it works.:D Hopefully this doent affend any one.

Mike Jory

08-16-2006, 4:19 PM

Steve;
I'm not sure if you're doing any wireing in the cieling or construction.
A couple things I'd like to suggest;
Get two-tube, 8' fixtures with electronic ballast. They're consideribly more expensive but they will all fire at once and it makes for great function with almost no starting flutter. Then wire every other fixture on two separate switches. It's certainly a luxury but, there are times when I go out to my shop and wish I could use half the light. Example is when no machines are being used and I'm hang'in out, driinking my beverage of choice with a friend.:cool:
The two circuit wireing is of course very time consuming to install and a bit more money.

The only other thing I would advise is to buy tubes in Daylight color temperature. Any box label or graph that states what the color temperature is should say 6500 degress Kelvin. The Daylight approximates the color of the sun and makes the shop not only very bright, it's compatible with any sunlight that may enter the shop. It gives you the real color of objects.
And paint your cieling white;)
Mike

Chris Padilla

08-16-2006, 4:31 PM

Get two-tube, 8' fixtures with electronic ballast. They're consideribly more expensive but they will all fire at once and it makes for great function with almost no starting flutter.

T8 flurorescents with T8 ballasts have nearly zero starting flutter so I'm not sure I understand how that makes the added expense of 8' worthwhile.

Then wire every other fixture on two separate switches. It's certainly a luxury but, there are times when I go out to my shop and wish I could use half the light. Example is when no machines are being used and I'm hang'in out, driinking my beverage of choice with a friend.:cool:
The two circuit wireing is of course very time consuming to install and a bit more money.

Great idea! I have 3 "16 foot" strips in my garage (2 8' strips using 4 4' bulbs per strip) and I have the "16 foot" strips all on their own switch. One "16 foot" strip gets hidden when the garage door is up so that one isn't usually on if the door is open. Thus, I have 3 light switches at one end of the garage (4 actually as I have a spare outlet for another strip of a hopefully future location of a nice workbench I want to build).

The only other thing I would advise is to buy tubes in Daylight color temperature. Any box label or graph that states what the color temperature is should say 6500 degress Kelvin. The Daylight approximates the color of the sun and makes the shop not only very bright, it's compatible with any sunlight that may enter the shop. It gives you the real color of objects.
And paint your cieling white;)
Mike

When I was picking up my lights/fixtures, I recall 3-4 color temps being available so I divided up the bulb purchase between all 3-4 and thus have quite a wide spectrum mix in the garage.

Lighting color temps are EXTREMELY important. You must know where your project will live and in under what lighting conditions. I can't tell you how many times a color of a couch or chair "in the store" looked totally different once a sample of that color was taken outside! In once case, my wife loved the color in the store under the lights there but was quite unhappy how it looked out in the sun. She now makes sure to look at colors in varying lighting conditions if possible.

Oh, and I believe I already stated it but it is very important: paint everything possible white. This will help further reflect the light around better. You guys can't believe how bright my garage is as night with all the lights on...I think it could be used to land planes in foggy weather! ;)

Jim O'Dell

08-16-2006, 6:32 PM

I will have the equivalent of 7 8'-4 bulb (4' bulbs) in my 20 by 24 shop. I used 4 of the 8' quads in 2 rows across the 20' width of my shop toward the center, placed end to end. This is above my TS, BS, and in the middle of my future multipurpose wall section where the different tools plug in. I have 6 4' 2 bulb fixtures on either side of these. That's clear a mud isn't it?
Go to http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=14427&page=2&highlight=coolmeadow+creations and look at post # 54. The pictures there will help decipher the above. I still need to purchase some of the 4' fixtures, 3 I think, and some more material for the reflectors.
Note: I also have several incandescent and or halogen fixtgures to spot on specific tools. I understand with the flicker of the flourescents, it can make a blade look like it is not moving. I have 2 spots that will shine on each of the blade or bit tool areas for safety sake. Jim.

John Bailey

08-16-2006, 8:37 PM

I have plans for 11 4' T8 fixtures with two "daylight" bulbs each in my 20x20 shop. Presently, I only have 5 fixtures. When I work at night, 5 fixtures works well. Make sure you buy your bulbs in bulk. There is a considerable savings.

John

Chris Barton

08-16-2006, 8:38 PM

How many will fit? Nobody has every complained of having too much light in their shop...

Bruce Page

08-16-2006, 8:56 PM

Steve, how old are you? I ask that because the older you get the more light you will need.
I have 8ea 4’, 4 bulb, recessed fixtures running Sylvania Sun Sticks, halogen lighting above the TS, task lighting on machines, benches, etc, and sometimes I still wish for more. And I’m not that old! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Install as many as you can and allow for more down the road.

Ps., My shop is about the same size as yours.

Anchul Axelrod

08-16-2006, 9:13 PM

OK, I am building a 30 X 60 shop :D :eek: . . . how many 4' or 8' would you all use for a space like that??

Roger Bell

08-16-2006, 9:41 PM

I put pull chains on each of mine, so I can turn any individual one or more off whenever I want. It is rare that I do so...I typically turn them all on and leave them all on. For going in and out for just a second, I have some ceiling incandescents.

24x24 space.........twelve 48" T8's plus a number of task incandescents here and there. Wish I had put in more flo's.

Marty Walsh

08-16-2006, 9:56 PM

Hey Steve,

Thanks for asking this question. I'm eagerly reading every response...in preparation for lighting my new 40 x 64 shop! ;)

- Marty -

Jim O'Dell

08-16-2006, 10:34 PM

Uuhhh, Marty...please tell me you: 1) own an electrical generating plant; 2) are a retired CEO of an Electrical service company and get free electrical for life; or 3) just won the lottery.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I ordered my 4' T-8 flourescent light bulbs from businesslights.com . 25 were 47.90 plus shipping. These are made in Germany. CRI 86. They also have the CRI 95 bulbs, but I was warned not to get those because of the color rendition.
There is a lighting article that I purchased on line as a reprint. If I remember the author is/was a member of this forum, or one other, and chimed in with some information that was very useful. I did a quick search here, but didn't find anything. May have been another forum...been too long for my memory to access. I'll try to find the article over the weekend and post back here if anyone is interested. Jim.

Marty Walsh

08-16-2006, 10:37 PM

Jerry White

08-16-2006, 10:39 PM

There is a nice article in the January/February 2002 issue of Fine Woodworking on how to figure illumination for the shop. The article is available on Finewoodworking.com, but I think you have to be a subscriber to the online service to access. Here is the link if it will work for you:

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=2771

I have my shop lighting upgrade half done, using the recommendations from this article and it appears that it is going to work well. My shop is about 20 x 22 and I will have thirteen 48" dual lamp flourescent fixtures installed when finished. My walls and ceilings are white. The shop has nine foot ceilings. The fixtures are arrainged in three rows of four, and one fixture is installed over a workbench on the end of the shop.

Jim O'Dell

08-16-2006, 10:54 PM

Jerry found it! The author's name is Jack Lindsey, and he is a member of SMC, or at least was at one time. Here is a link to previous thread on lighting: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17685
The article was pretty good, and answered a few questions I had. Especially about how we need more light as we age to see the same. It was worth the 4 bucks, IIRC, to down load. Has a formula you plug in the size of the room, the amount of light you want at your work surface height, how tall the ceilings are, etc, and you can calculate the number of flourescent lights you need to achieve that. I bet some of the online lighting stores have a calculator to figure the same thing.
Marty, how could I forget option 4??? That's where I reside, too.:eek: Jim.

Steve Canada

08-16-2006, 10:57 PM

I'm 30. My eyes are sharp, but they are also my livelyhood. So good lighting and safety are a must.

These thread is proving to be very helpful! Thanks for everyones input.

Mike Goetzke

08-16-2006, 11:06 PM

I have 6-twin 4' floursent fixtures and I added two 300w halogen fixtures - one above my saw and one over the workbench. The halogen light really compliments the floursent - especially helpful when staining, I get a better visual feel for the final color.

(The halogens also double as bug zappers - just love that smell of bugs being toasted.)

Mike

Steven J Corpstein

08-17-2006, 1:11 AM

I just rebuilt a 24' x 22' garage into a shop that I share with the cars and went through the same thoughts. I ended up doing a lot of research and in the end got great results.

I have an 8' ceiling painted flat white, the walls are very light gray. I ran 5 rows of two 8' fixtures, evenly spaced. Each fixture holds 4 - 4' bulbs.

The 4' bulbs are easier to store and also to dispose of. I used full spectrum 96 CRI bulbs and so far the comment from everyone is "You could do brain surgery in here".

I just wanted to see where my fingers were when the tools were spinning and not have any shadows so I could trust the color of the finishes on the wood without going outside to see the true colors. I achieved that goal.

If you'd like, I can take some pictures with the lighting in view and post them so you can get an idea of how bright that is.

Steve Strickler

08-17-2006, 6:58 AM

Mike,

Hear, hear....

I was just scrolling down to see if anyone mentioned bulb temperature. I SWEAR by my T8 Phillips Alto Natural Sunshine bulbs!

Not to be knit-picky, but actually 6500K is kinda a cool sunlight (artic). Somewhere around 5000K is full-spectrum sunshine/sunlight. They rate their bulbs on a 100-scale on their abilty to show colors accurately. The 6500's rate a 79 while the 5000's rate a 92!

The bulbs are not cheap, but are worth every penny, in my opinion. It is VERY stimulating to go into my shop on a dreary winter day and get full-spectrum sunlight! :D :D

Rob Beckers

08-17-2006, 8:39 AM

I'm running F32T8 Excella full spectrum / daylight fluorescents. They are 5700 Kelvin, 91 CRI, and cost just over 3 bucks when bought per case of 30 (see http://www.1000bulbs.com/product.php?product=4026). Most of those went into my shop, I have a few left that I intend to use for an excersize room. The light is very 'white', personally I like it, colors are rendered very close to what they look like in natural light (the main reason I put them in). Next to my shop is the heating/pump/water room with the same fixtures, but regular white fluorescents in them. The difference is striking, the Excellas are much whiter and also quite a bit brighter per bulb (though I suspect part of that is a trick of the brain, related to color).

All F32T8 fixtures have electronic ballasts if I remember right, you can't get them with magnetic ballast. In my case they come from a local DIY store (a Canadian chain named 'Rona'), two bulbs per fixture, with a cover/diffuser so the bulbs don't get dusty. There's no sound from the fixtures at all, completely silent, and they are instant start. The only downside is price, I believe I paid around $30 each for them.

-Rob-

brett widenhouse

08-17-2006, 8:47 AM

I just wired and hung lights for my shop/tractor storage barn.
24x40. I used 8' lights, 2 rows of 3 lights each, then added an extra one over the bench area and an extra one over the tablesaw area. Seems pretty bright in there to me. Total of 1600 watt, on two switches.

Jeff Fritzson

08-17-2006, 11:24 AM

Steve,

When I did the lighting for my shop I used this calculator http://www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/education_resources/tools_software/toolkit/layout.htm and I am thrilled with the results. It is very much like daylight in my shop with minimal shadows. For my 20 x 21 garage I have 6 - 8' fixtures that each hold 4 - 4' lights. I got a great deal on some T8 lights with a CRI of 82 (5000k)

Regards,
Jeff

Mike Jory

08-17-2006, 11:30 AM

The exact color temperature of a light is not directly porportional to the CRI. That is why the 6500K is a target. Sunlight is closer to 6500K than 5000K.

The Color Rendering Index, or CRI , of a source indicates how well it renders eight standard colors compared to a perfect reference lamp of the same color temperature.
The comparison is only valid for lamps of the same color temperature. The CRI Index ranges from 1 to 100. A lamp with a CRI of 80 will render colors better than a lamp with a CRI of 50.

Although a CRI is a good measure when comparing two lights of the same color temperature, it does not necessarily make sense when comparing lights of different color temperatures. A very yellow incandescent (low color temperature) will have a CRI of 100 (by definition), even though a much better looking flourescent (6500K) may only have a CRI of 85.

Source: http://ise.stanford.edu/class/psych221/projects/02/raytseng/7color.htm

Dale Sandford

08-17-2006, 12:51 PM

Since energy costs will most likely continue to rise, you may want to look at the the efficiency of your lighting. Here are a few generalizations about flourescent light efficiency. These are generalizations and of course there are exceptions, so if you really care you need to look at things case by case.

1) T8 (1") bulbs are more efficient than T12 (1.5") bulbs.

2) Electronic ballasts are more efficient than magnetic ballasts.

3) Normal output (NO) bulbs are more energy efficient than high output (HO) or very high output (VHO) bulbs. The high output bulbs put out more light, but consume more watts per lumen (unit of light).

4) Very high CRI (>90) bulbs often put out less light (lumens) than an equivalent lower CRI bulbs. A compromise is to use cheaper more efficient bulbs for general lighting and use the expensive high CRI bulbs for finishing areas where the color really matters.

5) New bulbs put out more light than bulbs that have been used.

6) Fixture reflectors and fixture position greatly affect the amount of lighting needed.

If you want to calculate energy efficiency, lumens per Watt is usually a good measure. Take the number of lumens and divide by the nomimal bulb wattage. (Actual power consumption varies depending ballasts, line voltage, temperature, etc.) The higher the lumens per watt, the more efficient the bulb. Note that most manufacturers provide both initial lumens and average lumens. The average lumens take bulb aging into account.

-- Dale

Chris Padilla

08-17-2006, 3:45 PM

Dale,

Nice summary. I'd like to add: PAINT EVERYTHING IN SITE WHITE!! :) There is no better reflector in your shop/garage than the ceilings and walls and if they are white, they will only enhance your chosen light fixture and bulb of choice.

However, there is no more BORING color than white and to paint everything white but I think it really helps spread the light out nice and evenly throughout my garage.

Matt Meiser

08-17-2006, 4:10 PM

Nice summary. I'd like to add: PAINT EVERYTHING IN SITE WHITE!! :) There is no better reflector in your shop/garage than the ceilings and walls and if they are white, they will only enhance your chosen light fixture and bulb of choice.

Amen to that! When I was painting my shop, it was like someone was turning on lights as I went. And eventually you'll end up with a lot of stuff hung on the walls to make it less boring.

Brad Noble

08-17-2006, 7:04 PM

I have a 16' by 24' shop in my back yard. I recently aquired 10 three bulb T-8 fixtures. 4' long with electronic ballast. Only problem, they were take outs and have a 277 Volt ballast in them but guess what, they work fine on 230 Volt. I have three way switches set up with a total of two circuits for these lights. Two fixtures are on one circuit for those times when I just need to run out there for a tool or whatever and the other eight on another circuit for the main shop. I have 120 Volts feeding the switches which in turn only power on/off a couple of relay switches which carry the 230 Volts to the fixtures themselves. So far, works great! You can never have too much light. I have one bulb for every 12.8 sq. ft. I also have 8 1/2 ft tall ceiling height.

Brad

Doug Littlejohn

08-17-2006, 7:13 PM

I'm running 9, 8 footers. About half have the good daylight bulbs. This is more than enough background light to work with (really rather bright), anywhere where I need more light I will drop in a 4 foot unit or some sort of auxillary lighting.

Also, I did mine on two circuits so that if the breaker were to trip at night, I won't be completely in the dark.

You've got plenty of advice on what bulbs, etc., so I'll just reiterate one more thing. I went with the 8 footers because they are commercial units which should have significantly greater reliability.

Sherwood