Attaboys and critiques

[George Conklin]

My attempt at being serious here.

My nature is not to say anything if you can't say anything nice. We're not talking about my sarcastic comments right now:rolleyes: . I'm refering to when we are asking for critiques on our work.

I believe in giving as much encouragement as possible. I find it difficult to tell that person what I don't like about their piece.

Are we doing ourselves a dis-service by throwing "attaboys" at everything.

What are your feelings about this?

I posted here in the Turning Forum because this is where I post 99.9% of the time:D

Please don't take this wrong. I'm not trying to start anything. The encouragement we give here is one of the attribute that make this site so great:) .

PS. I hate being serious. :)

[Jim Becker]

There is an excellent thread that Mark Singer posted about this in the Design Forum here at SMC.

If critique is requested, tactful honesty is very appropriate. Showing examples is also a good effort. But it's always important to separate "I just don't like it" from functional advise.

As to the "atta-boys", encouragement is important and you can still do that tactfully, even when it's hard to do so from a subjective standpoint. The bottom line is that is most important that the individual turner enjoys the activities they are doing, no matter how it compares to others' work...

[Ben Werner]

I tend to agree. All the "attaboys" are wonderful, and moral boosters but I, for one, would appreciate it if people gave me constructive comments on my work. Such as "that line is a little to straight", or "that transition is not smooth enough". In this way I could improve much faster with the advise of more expirenced turners. Not only would it help me but it would help all the newer turners on this website.

Even though constructive comments are helpful, encouragement in the form of Attaboys are very nice and make people feel good, at least they do for me. :D;):D

Ben

[Bill Grumbine]

Note to anyone reading this: this is not an accusation of anyone here or anywhere else, just an observation based on years of sitting throught show and tell, instant galleries, being asked to critique pieces, etc. I base my observations not only on my turning experience, but my undergrad and post masters work in the areas of human behavior.

George, I think there are a couple of things going on here. In the first place, a lot of people don't want to hear that their piece is ugly - or even that it looks good but could use a change here or there. They want to hear that it looks great. A lot of people even believe that they want a critique, but you can see the real attitude surface when they start to defend their design choices. The correct response to anything said about their piece is "thank you for your time and effort", even if the person disagrees completely, or if the critiquer is so far off the mark that is it not even funny. If you ask for a critique, do not be surprised to get one. That is what you wanted, right?

Second, there is a misperception in our culture that it is not nice to say something that is not positive. Look how I worded that last sentence. I didn't even write the word negative, because of its negative connotations. If someone makes something really ugly and asks for critiques, are we doing that person a favor by telling them it looks great? They will go and make more ugly things, and will not progress much in the way of developing an eye for shape and form. Then there are the goodie police who are all ready to jump in and declaim against the negative comments, or more accurately the negatively perceived comments as well as the person who made them, to show that they are indeed sensitive and supportive of ugly work. Of course, it really isn't ugly, right?

When I first started turning, I made lots of ugly stuff. I was blessed to be in a group of people who had no problem telling me it was ugly and what I needed to do to make it right. Now most of what I make isn't so ugly anymore, although I can turn out some pretty hideous pieces from time to time. Most of them go right to the woodstove. The really ugly ones get called art and I hang an obscene price tag on them. ;)

But in this type of venue, I think it is almost impossible to engage in truly honest exchange when it comes to critiques. Even if the person who asks and the person who answers are both completely honest about the whole thing, subjectivity rears its also ugly head and the whole thing degenerates from there.

I have been critiqued on my critique method by people who are nationally known, and I got very high marks on being diplomatic as well as accurate. But I still run away most of the time when someone asks me for a critique.

This is my opinion, and it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Bill

[Don Baer]

I agree with Bill that most people don't react well to negative comment but. I truly believe in being honest with someone. I try to be as honest as I can with someone should they ask my opinion. While I do praise what is good about a piece I also don't hesitate to state what I feel in my opinion I find wrong with a piece. I feel that if I am to grow as a woodworker then I should be able to take honest criticisim so I approach any critique as if I were the one presenting the piece. I feel I would be doing a diservice to the poster by doing anthing less. They in turn are free to take my opinion or not. After all my opinion is worth exactly what they are paying for it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I like constructive criticism. I also keep it in mind that an opinion is just that an opinion. I don't believe I'll improve without constructive criticisms. Yet....I can tell you from the standpoint of a newby turner.........The "attaboys" I got here sure helped push my enthusiasm and gave me the courage to try the next project.....raise the bar a little higher.....try something new.....And yet....I know I need the constructive criticisms to improve my form.....techniques........

As stated by Jim, Bill and Mark Singer.....it has to be done with a little tact....something I often don't possess. I'm often described as brutally honest....

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Great topic, thanks George for starting it.

Bill, as usual, you insight and your way of getting your point across are very much appreciated.

I'm in a slightly different situation from most of you, not all, but most.

I am a member of a turning club, but we meet about 5 times a year, for demos, there is not really any "Hey look what I made" stuff going on, and if I were to bring my stuff for them to see, I know, the others being Japanese, would only have nice things to say.

I NEED someone to critique my stuff, I've only got pictures and books to look at, well, this place too, but it is not the same as holding a well turned piece in your hands and looking at it, or having some one who does nice work look at your piece and give you pointers, so this place has to be a substitute for that.

Sure the "Atta-boys" are nice, but I do what an honest opinion, and if it is tactful, all the better, but I, for one am asking, no begging for some feedback...........please!

I can take it, I'm here to learn and have fun, but I find if I'm not learning, I'm usually not having fun, so teach me, please.

I think, THINK, I have a fairly good eye for the classic forms, I do not know if I can translate that into the wood I'm spinning, but I do try. Right now, I'm working on just the basics, nothing pushing the envelope or even outside the classic bowl shape, as I have to learn that before I head off into the HF and other more artsy stuff.

I think that with the new turners, we need to encourage them, like Ken said, the positive feed back he got, and me as well, really helped me strive for more, but now, as an intermediate turner, I need more of a hardcore critique, and yes I'm asking for that, if you see something I post, tell me what you think of it, I can handle it, I also understand that aside from basic faults in the construction of a piece (hole in the bottom of a bowl) a lot of what some think "looks good or bad" is very subjective, but that is all right with me. I look at someone like Bill G. as having a body of work that I very much like to look at and who has a lot of time picking shavings out of his beard, and such as being a good judge of what looks right to most people, that being said, I want every-one's opinion when I ask for it.

Sorry if this is disjointed, I'm writing it and running the L shop at the same time, so I write, deal with a customer for a few and then write some more..... :p :o

Oh yeah, critique my work, but not my writing, I know it sucks :rolleyes: :D

Again, a great topic, and should be an interesting read, I hope I added to it.

Cheers!

[Mike Vickery]

My take is about the same only offer a critique when it is asked for. If you are critqueing a piece it is always a good idea to talk about what you do like as well as what you do not. I had a guy once on another forum e-mail to apoligize for a critique he gave when I stated critiques were welcome. The funny thing is I felt the exact same way about the piece that he did. Just cause I post it does not mean I think it is perfect, usually I know what I think is wrong with it but I always appreciate another pair of eyeballs. Some people take a critique better than others so if you cant take it dont ask for it. If you ask for it take it with grace.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I like constructive criticism also. One thing I have found is that I have had lots of PM's with suggestions of what I could do better or something someone has seen they wanted to bring to may attention. I think there is a lot more PM'ing going on than one realizes. I don't think we see what goes on behind the scenes. I like this form to because it is personal and you can discuss it.

I also like the atta boys because there are times when I wanted to throw the piece in the wood pile but the atta boys and encouragement kept me going. It gives me the go to try harder and make the next one better. I give a lot of atta boys for some of the things posted on here such as some of the boxes, HF's, NE's, etc. Some of these things I wonder if I will ever attain that kind of turning skills. So to me the atta boys are my way of give cuddo's to someone and their turned piece. Just my $1.298.

[Lee DeRaud]

I tend to be somewhat sparing with my applause, reserving it for the stuff that really reaches out and grabs me. On the other hand, this isn't the kind of place where I feel free to tee off on things that are not to my taste. (Not to mention that I'm sure there are people here that think I post way too much already. :eek: )

So if I don't post an attaboy, please don't read too much into it. :p

[Ben Werner]

Really Bernie? I've never gotten PM's regarding a piece of work....

R regarding the criticism, not that its a bad thing, but all I've gotten in this thread: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=41319 is attaboy. No constructive comments, my piece cant be perfect. Being patted on the back is nice but is not helping my turning skills. There MUST be something that I could improve. Thats what I want and I'm just not getting it. I'm getting a lot from this website but thats a little bit more that would help me a lot. I know I'm not that eloquent and I'm being quite upfront about this but it’s important to me.

[Keith Burns]

"Constructive Criticism" "Engourage" "Tact" "Personal Opinion" All important words. Keep in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The other thing, which is sometimes harder to discern, is the individuals personality. I have seen excelent turners withdraw from forums because of overly critical and harsh comments. I, like Ken find the encouragement here to push myself to do different and difficult things. I probably never would had turned green wood if it wasn't for the encouragement I got here from Travis S., Jim K., Mark C., Dennis P. and others. I, like most of us, am my own worst critic. I have found flaws in every piece I have turned. You may not see them but I do. I think if you continually tell someone their work is ugly they will eventually quit turning. I always try to find the "positive" in someones work and build on that. And you should never tell someone that something is wrong with a piece without a suggestion on how to improve it. In my short time here at the Creek I have seen so many start turning on this site and have watched them progress to really excellent turners. I can assure you it was not because we told them their first piece was ugly.

[Lee DeRaud]

I, like most of us, am my own worst critic. I have found flaws in every piece I have turned. You may not see them but I do."It's my camera, and by god I'll decide which angle to take the pictures from!" :D

Speaking as a beginner, I'd say the worst problem with this forum as a teaching tool is that all we see is the finished product, possibly with a couple of in-progress snapshots: regardless how nice the piece comes out (at least from the camera side), there's just no way anyone here can know how truly awful my technique is and help me improve it.

[Bill Grumbine]

I can assure you it was not because we told them their first piece was ugly.

Well, since I am the one who used the word "ugly" I guess I need to go on record stating that I have not, to the best of my knowledge, ever told someone their work was ugly, at least in a serious setting. I was using my own verbal shorthand here. I did tell a guy his work was mediocre at best, but that was in a very acrimonious situation with a self proclaimed expert who was busy running me into the ground in every way possible. I finally pointed out that his work did not match his apparent level of expertise. But that is a different story from a different place...

Encouraging a person who has just produced something to the best of their ability and critiquing the work are two completely different things. I have taught hundreds of people to turn over the past 11 years of my teaching career, and thousands more through my video (am I allowed to say that here?) I get lots of feedback, emails for advice, etc. It is one thing to commend a person for doing the best they can do, and encouraging them to continue, but it is quite another to critique the piece that has been produced. I doubt if anyone thinks a beginner should be able to produce gallery quality work, with the possible exception of that person themselves.

Example: Many people who have been through my shop asking me how much I charge for a bowl. For a functional, utilitarian, salad bowl, 12" in diameter and 4" high, I can get $120 - $150. I tell them that plainly, since it is usually on the price tag, and my prices are not state secrets. Quite a few of these people walk out the door expecting that they are going to go home and turn out $120 bowls by the truckload. No, it ain't gonna happen, at least not right away. They may be doing the best they have ever done, but that does not mean that it is at the same level of someone who has been turning for years and has worked at improving their turning. An honest critique will contain the elements of encouragement for working to the best of their ability at that time, but also giving a diplomatic dose of reality to enable that person to improve. I could blow a lot of sunshine up someone's skirt and send them away thinking that their work is ready for the world class, but they are going to be getting a harsh education just a little bit further on down the line, and two things happen. One, their spirit is crushed in a way that it might not return, and two, I lose my own credibility, since I obviously did not tell them the truth about their work.

It takes a lot of work to tell someone their work needs a lot of improvment without crushing their spirit, and this format does not lend itself well to doing that. Just look how my use of the word ugly was misconstrued.

Bill

[Keith Burns]

It takes a lot of work to tell someone their work needs a lot of improvment without crushing their spirit, and this format does not lend itself well to doing that. Just look how my use of the word ugly was misconstrued.

Bill

First Bill, I did not misconstrue your use of the word "ugly". I would have used it in my text anyway. Should I have used the word awlful?

This forum and format is a great help to the people who particapate in it. This forum and it's members are friends and even more like a family. That is evident with it's success.

[Jonathon Spafford]

I think that constructive criticism is great and really essential for learning... iron sharpens iron, right? and that is a part of the reason this forum is here. There are times when criticism is unnecessary especially when directed towards a beginner. When someone finds something to criticize it is important that they first look at it in terms of their skill level. A beginner is not going to have perfect style, balance, shape, and there first attempts will probably be pretty rough. That is to be expected, of course. I think it is important to focus on how well they are progressing and to encourage them, otherwise they might be turned away from the hobby. As the skill level progresses and their coves and beads and shapes become better, then constructive criticism on design is beneficial. Of course, their work won't be perfect, but you have to judge them according to the level they are at not at the level that someone like Richard Raffan is at. Equally important to constructive criticism (as someone mentioned earlier in the thread) is finding the good qualities in their work... it lessens the "negative" effects of the criticism. Just my 0.02

[Bill Grumbine]

First Bill, I did not misconstrue your use of the word "ugly". I would have used it in my text anyway. Should I have used the word awlful?

This forum and format is a great help to the people who particapate in it. This forum and it's members are friends and even more like a family. That is evident with it's success.

Sorry Keith, I guess I misconstrued your use of the word. Please forgive me for my misunderstanding of your post. Since I was so free with the term in my own post, I was afraid you might have been concerned that I was going around telling people their work was ugly, and I wanted to reassure you and anyone reading that is not my practice.

But, here is part of the problem. The written word is hard to interpret sometimes. I would love to meet you in person and talk a few things over.

[Mark Singer]

People are sensitive, however it seems like one gret thing that comes from a Forum like SMC is the opportunity to share and from that sharing comes knowledge. The listener must be open to opinions and willing to change. I think if you know a better way to do something, or a way to improve a design, you should offer your knowledge. I will be the first to admit I often remain silent, or talk about whats good and avoid the subject about what might be improved....I am afraid sometimes to offer opinions.:rolleyes: It is a great way to share and to learn....so I think people should request opinions to break the ice...then it will be easier to give advice:confused:

[Jim Stoppleworth]

It takes a lot of work to tell someone their work needs a lot of improvment without crushing their spirit, and this format does not lend itself well to doing that.

1. I don't belong to a club. All of the turners I know(except for ones met at shows that were known previously from forums ) have been met online.
2. I have both of Bill's videos. Have learned tremendously from them and before my bad habits become to ingrained I'll be taking a class from him.
3. I'm a dominant left handed person trying to do work on a right handers machine. (You want to talk about ugly--I'll show you a couple of things I turned righthanded.)
4. I seldom post pictures of my work because the camera can do a pretty good job of hiding all the flaws and the rest can be handled by Photoshop.
5. I'd give a whole lot to have honest critique of my work but what I really want is constructive critique of my technique, and that is not possible here because you can't see "butchering" process that got me to the finished item.
6. I recently posted a pic on another forum of a winged walnut crotch wood bowl (it ended a decent effort despite what I know is my poor technique and developing bad habits.) I rec'd several attaboys which encouraged me greatly. (I had asked for comments.) One commenter mentioned the next one should have a lid, that seems like a good idea I'll try it.

My point in this longwinded discourse is to second the notion that "attaboy"s are important. I also think commentary that addresses shape and form even if it says "I wouldn't have done it that way" can be constructive. Bowl from above, I would have never thought to put a lid on that type of bowl.
I just wished for the people like myself who do not belong to a club that a way was possible to critique technique on these forums.

Stoppy

[Lee DeRaud]

I just wished for the people like myself who do not belong to a club that a way was possible to critique technique on these forums.Amen.

I'd consider posting video of myself turning, but the soundtrack would certainly violate the TOS. :eek: :cool:

[Raymond Overman]

I enjoy the SMC Turner's Forum for what it is and what it isn't. A new turner may not grow with the attaboys and the constant pats on the back but he isn't turned off by a barrage of "design flaws" before they even have basic tool knowledge. This forum allows the beginner a place to show off what he did last night and have someone recognize it.

If someone says that they want a critique, that's one thing. If they say, "Hey look at this," it's another. A lot of people here say, "Hey look at this."

I know my pieces aren't gallery quality. Every one of them have something that I wish was a little different. I've read enough and listened enough and watched enough that I feel that I can recognize where I am on the woodturning food chain. I'm a local craftsman/artisan whose work is accepted by my community. I sell a few pieces here and there. (I sold three of my baron pens yesterday and got a request for a box which was cool) I like SMC because I can see people progress up that chain at their pace instead of seeing them drop out because their work is being criticized or more often than not, ignored. Other forums I see don't give a lot of recognition to the new guys and you don't see a lot of the "this is a piece of wood from" or "they all got together and got me a lathe" type posts. There's a lot of comaraderie here.

When I want to be critiqued and corrected by the pros, I'll drop out of SMC and move over to WOW. As it is, you'll probably be stuck with me for a long time. That's not to say if you see something I can improve on, don't speak up. I like to get some constructive criticism. Just don't tell me I have a bad picture and therefore my turning isn't worth looking at. I'm not in it for the portfolio right now.

[Keith Burns]

But, here is part of the problem. The written word is hard to interpret sometimes. I would love to meet you in person and talk a few things over.

You are absolutely right Bill. Words can be sharper than the sword, or cut deeper, or what ever that saying is:) That is why, for me anyway, sometimes it is better to just keep my mouth shut as I am not good at conveying my message via the written word.

Anytime you are down my way give me a call. I would enjoy meeting you as well.

[Vaughn McMillan]

I'm in the "I think I have a pretty good eye for form, but my technique needs a lot of work" camp. Since it's hard to coach technique issues on a forum, I have to settle for critiques of the form of my finished pieces. When I post pics, I try to make it a point to ask for comments and critiques. When I do get any real critique (as opposed to the attaboys), it's very appreciated, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.

As I mentioned in the similar thread over in the Design forum, I feel I'm my harshest critic, and if 'm not at least somewhat happy with the way something turns out, I won't post it in public. So if someone trashes my work, chances are I'll shine it on and not worry about it, since I know I'm happy with it. Constructive criticism though, is taken to heed. Especially when it comes from one of a number of people here on SMC whose opinion I hold highly.

- Vaughn

[Andy Hoyt]

I'm really glad this has surfaced. As I've been reading, I've also been trying to formulate what I might say. And I can't seem to find the right words to encompass all of those thoughts, so instead I'll offer this.

The notion of technique and its development is - to me anyway - at the top of the whole learning to turn thing. And you guys are right. It cannot be shared or assimilated through a keyboard.

So whaddya do? Go hang out with another turner. Through a club with a mess of members or even if it's just one individual. It doesn't matter. Nor does it matter who has the better skills. What does matter is that you can both feel the wood, the vibrations, the tools, and the finished piece. You can readily point to specifics, you can talk freely using your entire vocabulary. And you demonstrate or observe how something is held, mounted, or presented.

You'll be better off because of it. And so will we when you write about the experience.

[Reed Gray]

I don't think that I have ever replied to any of the threads, on any of the forums that I participate in, that ask for critique. I just don't know what to say. No one does things quite the way that I do, so who am I to say. I guess maybe I could do more in this line, as I tell beginners that if they ask questions that they may get several different answers, but that will give them ideas for the next time they go out to the shop. Actually, this applies to more experienced turners as well. One of the reasons that I like to see other turners work is to get ideas of other things to try. Inspiration is every where you look. Don't compare, just look for differences, and what looks good and works well for your design concepts.
robo hippy

[Travis Stinson]

It's very tough to give an accurate critique with only a picture to go by. There's SO many other variables that come into play. I recently gave what I thought was an honest, straightforward critique of a piece to someone in private.....only to find out that what I saw was a result of the angle of the photo.:o
And don't open up the whole photography can of worms. I'm a woodturner, not a photographer.;)

[Travis Stinson]

Well said Reed!:cool:

[Curt Fuller]

One of the things about a forum like this is that most who post here visit the site often and they begin to recognize the style and abilities of the different members. Once you've hung around long enough to see that then it's easier to temper your remarks and critiques to each individual's work. It's not really about doing "the best" work as much as it is about doing "your best" work. I don't, and I'm willing to bet that most others don't post something unless they think it's something that is "their best" and they want to show it off a little. In that context everyone likes to hear a few oohs and ahhs. But sometimes you try something new or at least new to you and you want to really hear what folks think about it. In that case I think you should say so and then brace yourself for the honest criticism that follows. That's when you'll start learning from the comments other's post. Even if you don't agree with the critique you'll think about it as you're working on you next piece of wood and somewhere down the road it will have an influence on your turning.

As quite a few have already said, we're usually our own toughest critiques unless someone comes along and really lays a knot on your head. But you get over it eventually and usually it has a positive affect on your work.

[Barry Stratton]

Great question George!

The only reason I have a lathe and am here is because of the sense of community, even friendship exhibited on this forum. I have no skills nor talent, but I do have a great deal of persistence. I, as a newbie, APPRECIATE the compliments AND THE CRITIQUES. They keep me enthused. I really appreciate the skilled turners posting their work to give me something to strive for....not that I'll ever get there, but a guy can try.

The last thing I want to see is this forum go the road of the "other" forums, where folks type like they have their head so far up some place that it appears to be in the right spot. That said, we also need to keep things in perspective if someone does say something "negative". Personally, I know most of my stuff "stinks", but it is slowly getting better - mainly due to persistence AND the encouragement of folks here.

We are friends here. That's what makes it a great place. Friends compliment friends. Friends also tell friends how to do better the next time, even when not asked.

I guess that is a long winded way of saying "Keep SMC a fun place to share and learn".

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I just want to say that you guys are it for me, I've got no where else to turn for this stuff.

Cheers!

[Earl Eyre]

Thanks for bringing up the topic. When I first got involved in some of the woodturning forums I offered honest and open critiques but was often the only one to do so, so I quit. When I was deeply involved in bonsai I belonged to a group that was tremendously helpful. If you asked for a crituque, you go one--often with people actually going in to programs like Photoshop and redrawing your bonsai to look like their idea of what it should look like. On that forum, you were expected to only ask for critiques when you really wanted it because others took it seriously and put a lot of work into their responses. Over on WOW they tried a Critique section but it still hasn't really brought about helpful learning. Maybe because their are so many people involved in the woodturning forums that it is just impossible--I don't know.

But I do know that when I was doing bonsai those critiques were true learning situations. How that could be transfered, I don't know, but I wish it could.

I know I find myself getting less involved in all the woodturning forums because I really want to learn, but often that doesn't seem to happen. The forums tend to become either chit chat or repititous. I tend to think that is inevitable because of the numbers of people involved and new members joining every day. The bonsai forum was quite small and it is a very limited number of people who do it...

Just some thoughts on a challenging subject...;.

Earl

[Dennis Peacock]

Well...let me jump in here and say sumpin'........

I for one don't feel like I'm good enough to ask for a critique.
I for one don't feel like I'm always ready for negative feedback.
I for one can't translate the "tone" of what was typed.
I have learned from video's.
I have learned from trial and error
I have learned from visiting with other turners at various BBQ's
I have learned by reading forum posts
I have learned about form and finish by reading forum posts

Pirmarily, I don't post a lot of comments because what I usually say isn't what I really meant. It's hard to say "just the right words" so you don't come across "wrong". Know what I mean?:o

[Doug Jones]

For what its worth,
All I want to know is, what do you see when you look at what I made. If you like it, what is it you like about it. If you don't like it, what is it that you don't like about it. To each their own, one man's trash is another man's treasure, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so on and so on and so on.

[Don Orr]

This thread and this forum have a lot of good things happening. Decent people having real conversations about interesting things.

The encouragement (atta boys) offered here is outstanding. So many beginners make tremendous progress simply by not getting discouraged. Continuing to try new things and practice is the way we all get better at anything.

The support offered here is also outstanding. Ask a question and get several answers and ideas from many different people.

The humor here can be absolutely contagious!

The subject of critique can be a tricky one. I tend to shy away from critiquing peoples work since I don't feel qualified to do so. I don't have a degree in art or design or a background in the classics. I have read about and looked at lots of information on form and design. I have been to Gallery Critiques at symposiums given by qualified people. I have been to demos on design and form to try to inprove my work. NONE of this makes me qualified to tell someone their piece is good or bad. What I can tell someone is whether I like it or not and maybe offer some reasons why. If someone is thrilled that their piece survived the process and came off the lathe intact, who am I to put that down if a curve is not "perfect"? As many have already said, this forum is as much about Learning as it is about Turning.

Criticism in one thing, CONSTRUCTIVE critcism is another. Encouragement is something entirely different in my opinion.

I have the dubious "honor" of presenting the instant gallery show-n-tell at our turning club meetings. We have a wide range of abilities and skill levels-just like here. We are fortunate to have some very skilled and talented turners in our club-just like here. I do NOT critique the pieces. I simply hold them up, ask who made it, what kind of wood and finish, and what were the challenges of the piece. I give out a lot of "AttaBoys & Girls". I happen to be one of the more experienced turners in our club and get asked questions about tecnique often, which I am happy to answer to the best of my ability. I don't usually offer much if someone asks for a critique. Maybe a few simple suggestions or comments, but nothing in depth. Only RARELY during the show-n-tell will I single out a particular piece as special. I do this to help the less experienced turners get an idea of why a special piece is special.

Critiques on a forum like this can be difficult at best. Photos don't usually show an accurate representation of the piece, written words can't express the tone or inflection of someone's voice or body language or facial expression. I do however think a critique from someone qualified has a place here. For example, I would trust and respect commentary from someone like Bill Grumbine because of his obvious skill, knowledge and experience. This is how he makes his living-he doesn't eat if his work is not of high quality. Comments from me have very little merit. I use Bill as an example here because I have met him and respect and admire him and his work. He gets straight to the point without a lot of baloney.

Sorry this is so long and rambling. Maybe you can tell this subject strikes a chord with me. I feel critiques need to be asked for when wanted, and taken with the intent offered-to help. I really like the line some use that their opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. And also remember that comments given are just that-opinions.

So keep turning, keep learning, have fun, and be safe!:)

[Lee DeRaud]

The subject of critique can be a tricky one. I tend to shy away from critiquing peoples work since I don't feel qualified to do so. I don't have a degree in art or design or a background in the classics.I don't either, but two simple questions help me focus in on what matters:

1. Would I be willing to give that piece to someone whose opinion I care about?

2. Does that piece inspire me to try to make one like it?

I'll leave any further analysis to art critics.

[Don Orr]

...food for thought Lee. This kind of discussion really gets people thinking!

[John Timberlake]

I agree with Bill. The only time I feel free to give an real negative comments is when someone asks for them AND are in the design phase. No one wants to hear that they have just put a lot of time and effort into something that nobody likes. At the design stage, they only have lines on a piece of paper - great time for constructive criticism or to ask for opinions amond designs. I usually like to point out good points and just stay silent on the things I don't like.

[Mark Cothren]

I'm an expert. If any of y'all want an expert opinion just ask me for it.



NOT!!!!!!!!!! :D ;) :cool: :rolleyes:

It's a tough subject for sure. My rule of thumb? If you ask for an opinion and I have one? You'll get it. Otherwise I'll stay behind my keyboard eatin' Nutter Butters and drinkin' sweet tea...

If I ask for feedback, opinions, critiques, etc... then I honestly would love to hear it. I don't care how you word it. Even if you just say, "I don't know why for sure, but I just ain't too crazy about that". If I have a problem with how you word something, I'll talk to you about it privately and we'll clear it up. You can feel free to do the same with me.

Now if you talk about my momma, then I may just hire Joe "The Mule" Tonich to come pay you a visit...:D

My thoughts are if you want a critique or feedback, then post pics from a few different angles and then ask for feedback.

Good discussion. Great points being made.

[Henry C. Gernhardt, III]

Otherwise I'll stay behind my keyboard eatin' Nutter Butters and drinkin' sweet tea...

Mark... I forget... Do you drink Georgia, Virginia, Kentucky, Illinois, or New York sweet tea? (when you get to Maine, I think sweet tea is one grain of sugar per ten gallons, and that doesn't count.) :)

[Andy Hoyt]

Sorry Henry. Up here it's one part Muscatel and one part Moxie.

Urpppppp!

Critique that!:D

[thomas prevost]

AS mostly a lurker who gets on almost every other day with only a few posts, this is my critique. I feel I am average with the tools, but I seem to have a very poor eye for form. I lurk to see what others have done- angle, radi, height vs diameter etc.

I have often turned gorgous wood into shiney globs or balls. Twice I posted with projects I was having trouble with hoping some one would critque and help me "save" or not make the same mistake twice. Even my 4yr granddaughter could see it was ugly, All I got was attaboys. Though I have to agree, many post to say "boy, am I really proud of this." negative comments here are hurtful even though well intentioned.

I love pictures that show form, thickness, etc. Wish Bill would post more of his work so we can learn from his eye on form.