Straight edge accuracy?

[Al Willits]

Looking for a straight edge to use on my planer/jointer beds, I see Lee Valley has a 50" one for $57.50, its accurate to .003 for the entire lenght.

Judging by what you guys have already said, I'm thinking that's going to be pleanty accurate for what I need????

tia

Al who's really trying to be a pick less picky...:D

[Nick Roper]

I have only one problem with claims and prices such as this (maybe two). 1) How do you check them to verify the claimed accuracy or do you just take their word for it? 2) Is that degree of accuracy a real advantage when working with wood, a product that moves with the humidity and temperature?

[Bruce Page]

Al, I have the LV 50", it is very nice. That said, as an ex-machinist, I have a hard time believing that they could get it accurate to .003 for the entire length. The fixtures for holding the extrusion to machine without adding any undue stress must be something. That is, if it is really as accurate as they say...

[Mike Weaver]

Al, I have the LV 50", it is very nice. That said, as an ex-machinist, I have a hard time believing that they could get it accurate to .003 for the entire length. The fixtures for holding the extrusion to machine without adding any undue stress must be something. That is, if it is really as accurate as they say...

Any chance there are two Creekers that live near each other and each own the LV straight edge?

Theoretically, they could put them up against each other and check what size feeler gauges fit between them?

Just a thought - I hope to have one in the future.
Cheers,
-Mike

[Al Willits]

"""""
Is that degree of accuracy a real advantage when working with wood, a product that moves with the humidity and temperature?
""""""""""

Depends on your thoughts on accuracy I guess.

I believe in getting my machine tools as accurate as I can.
A little here, little there, may not mean much in the general scope of things overall, but I would know the tools could do better and wouldn't be happy.
Whether I could ever see the difference or not.

I get to kill two birds with one shot here, my 25+ year old 48" straight edge has been to close to the welding table one to many times and has a slight warp to it and I need a straight edge to set my tools up, so if $54 get me there, may not be all that bad, considering the cost of the rest of the stuff wood working needs....at $400 for a planer, the straight edge seems almost cheap....:D


Mike, I'd be more than a bit interested to see how a pair of them match, hopefully there's a couple of creekers who have them and are close...or one rich one who has two....:)

Al

[Chris Padilla]

This is where regulatory (sorry, Al, that means a governing entity! ;) ) body comes in with established criteria and standards by which to judge things such as "how straight is my straight-edge." If LV got certification on the straight-edge (and I don't think they did), it would certainly cost more but then you'd get a piece of paper stating it met whatever standard.

[pat warner]

A 3 mil error, depending on where it is, on a jointer can prevent optimum jointing. If the 3 mils is a tilt east/west, the work can & will bump into the outfeed table.
A 3 mil tilit from end to end can produce a hollow stick or one that never cleans up!
Judicious study and practice can overcome these mal-adjustments but if you can't measure to a mil you don't know where the error is.

Short straight Edges (http://patwarner.com/bev_straight_edge.html)

[Chuck Saunders]

Measure with a micrometer,
Mark with chalk
Cut with an axe
you have to start somewhere
Chuck

[Al Willits]

I checked and nowhere on the website add does it mention certification, so I doubt it.
They also list a 24" steel that's good to .001 but once again, no listing of certification.
Maybe my quest isn't over yet.....

Pat I have the 4 blades all with-in a thou, and going front to back there is .003 difference between the two blades,(change blades to tables..sorry) I have shim stock to correct that though.
I am using a dial indicator to take these measurements.

I am planning on using the straight edge to check the tables being parallel to each other, I should be able to get them parallel with the adjustments the jointer has for both tables.
I'm then gonna look for unevenness in the tables...is .003 enough to cause problems?

Have to admit I'm enjoying the set up on the jointer, but I'd like to make a little sawdust pretty soon....:D

Al who was pleasntly suppirsed that someone actually read his rants Chris....viva la revolution....hehe

[Chris Padilla]

Al who was pleasntly suppirsed that someone actually read his rants Chris....viva la revolution....hehe

;)

I have two straight-edges:

One is from Starrett, is 36" long, is steel, and is certified to 0.5 mil/ft (yes, that is 0.0005 inch per foot) and cost me about $130.

The second is the aluminum one from LV. Using the Starret on the LV, I'm very happy with the straightness of the LV. I've been waiting for an Al straight-edge of good length for some time as they are excellent for setting up jointers. I like to lay the straight-edge on the far bed of the jointer and bring up the knifes until they are just nicking the Al straight-edge. You don't want to do that with a steel straight-edge! :eek:

[Al Willits]

;)

I have two straight-edges:

One is from Starrett, is 36" long, is steel, and is certified to 0.5 mil/ft (yes, that is 0.0005 inch per foot) and cost me about $130.

The second is the aluminum one from LV. Using the Starret on the LV, I'm very happy with the straightness of the LV. I've been waiting for an Al straight-edge of good length for some time as they are excellent for setting up jointer's. I like to lay the straight-edge on the far bed of the jointer and bring up the knifes until they are just nicking the Al straight-edge. You don't want to do that with a steel straight-edge! :eek:


You do this while its running??????
Evidently your hearing is much better than mine, I'd see aluminum shavings before I heard anything....:)

But thanks for checking your Starrett against the LV, quest may be over now....whew!

Al who thinks he might take his die grinder to a block of wood...just to make sawdust tonight.....I need a wood fix.....

[Steven Wilson]

2) Is that degree of accuracy a real advantage when working with wood, a product that moves with the humidity and temperature?
The answer is yes. The machine that you use to machine your wood with needs to be setup to specs better than what you want to achieve in cutting wood. And to measure that you need a reference that is better than you want to set your machines to. I have a sliding table saw and it's setup to be around +-.003" in 8' using a 5 sided cut. It cuts very, very square panels which makes assembly, glue up, clamping, etc much, much easier. So for cutting wood it's not unreasonable to bring out feeler guage, straight edges, and dial calipers when setting the tools up. I use a 4' Starret Straight edge (bought a long time ago for setting up bass guitars) as a reference for other straight edges that I use to check machines. I have a pair of lignum vitae winding sticks (3' long) that I use as a quick straight edge. They reference very well against my Starrett and aren't affected by the seasons. If they get off a bit it's easy to bring them back with a scraper.

[Jim Becker]

You do this while its running??????

NO! (And I'm only posting that negative since there may be newbies hanging out... ;) )

Chris was describing the same method that many folks also use with a simple block of wood to set the outfeed height. It's safe with an aluminum straight edge, too, as the aluminum is soft enough that it will not damage the knives with incidental contact.

[Chris Padilla]

You do this while its running??????
Evidently your hearing is much better than mine, I'd see aluminum shavings before I heard anything....:)

:D Dunno if your comment was tongue-in-cheek but no, the saw isn't running at the time! :rolleyes: I just move the cutting journal back and forth until I just get that first hint of a scrape.

BTW, my jointer is the USS FS41-Elite aircraft carrier! :)

[David Mayer]

Funny that this discussion is going on today. I just found this board and joined a few minutes ago. I have the 38" Lee Valley but have wanted the 50" for quite some time. I had actually ordered it just before reading this discussion. When the 50" straight edge comes in I will see if I can measure the gap. I hope I can't .. that would mean they were really close.

David

[Mark Rios]

Any chance there are two Creekers that live near each other and each own the LV straight edge?

Theoretically, they could put them up against each other and check what size feeler gauges fit between them?

Just a thought - I hope to have one in the future.
Cheers,
-Mike


I've got one. I'm in Modesto, CA. if anyone wants to check the edges.

[Chris Padilla]

Hmmm, San Jose <--> Modesto...yeah, Mark, that ain't too far for you to travel! :D Besides, I came to visit you once...turn-about is fair play here! :eek:

[Mark Rios]

Hmmm, San Jose <--> Modesto...yeah, Mark, that ain't too far for you to travel! :D Besides, I came to visit you once...turn-about is fair play here! :eek:


I've got a Snap-On 36" as well. In their online catalog they say that it is milled to .0002/ft. (.0002---I typed it again for accuracy. three 0's and a 2). I'm not sure if it's certified but it's used for checking the tops of engine blocks so I imagine it's really, really close.

I'd come over to check Chris. Besides, I'd love to see your (read: drool on) Elite. :D

[Chris Padilla]

I'd come over to check Chris. Besides, I'd love to see your (read: drool on) Elite. :D

Drool = Rust = Instant Death! :eek:

;)

[Mark Rios]

Drool = Rust = Instant Death! :eek:

;)


I promise to wear a bib AND a mask. :D :D :D

[pat warner]

I am planning on using the straight edge to check the tables being parallel to each other, I should be able to get them parallel with the adjustments the jointer has for both tables.
I'm then gonna look for unevenness in the tables...is .003 enough to cause problems?
***************************
Unevenness, hills & valleys, etc. can be a problem. A 3 mil dip right at the end of the in feed table can cause royal problems with knife setting and work piece travel.

What to do: Set the chunk at your best guess, don't go any crazier.
Cut some faces & edges and use your straight edges & such on the work, the real test of how well you're set up.

Routers & Jointers (http://www.patwarner.com)

[Allen Bookout]

Al

I have the LV 50" straight edge. I just went out and layed it both my infeed table and my outfeed tables and I cannot get a .001 feeler gage under it on either table. So to me that means that either both tables are off the same in the exact same spots and not only that, they are off by the same amount as the straight edge in the same spots. What are the odds of that? One in ten million or something.

To me that says that the LV straight edge that I have is extremely accurate, certified or not.

Allen

P.S. The only problem is that there is no person from the Federal Government here to make sure it is straight. Also there are no warning stickers telling you not to lay your hand on the table and hit it with the product. Appears that we need another Federal Committee. Other than that I think that is is a quality product.

[Al Willits]

Ya I was serious, had a brain fade there and forgot about manually moving the blade back and forth....that's how I set it up originally was with a straight edge (remember the 25+ old warped one?) then to check I used the dial indicator by setting it to zero on the table then moving it over the blades and looking for zero again...seems to be close.

Looking for that new edge to recheck though.

Thanks Steven, always nice to know I'm not going quite as nuts as I thought...

Al who see's a product review on straight edges from LV coming up???

Thanks Creekers

[Mike Weaver]

If any of you Creekers get together to compare sticks, er, straight edges, PLEASE post the results. :D

I'm particularly interested in the LV 50" aluminum one since I have an OWWM 12" jointer to set up one of these days (after I get it downstairs and get a bushing so I can hook up the leather belt).

Thanks in advance :D,
-Mike

[Chris Barton]

Seems to me like your putting too much emphasis on the level of accuracy on a straitedge for the purposes of working wood. This question seems to come up here on a fairly regular basis. Any reasonably strait ruler will work fine for adjusting jointer tables as long as it is over 24" in length. Remember, wood changes size by increments of 1/64 - 1/4" just due to moisture changes in the environment. Measuring to the thousandth of an inch is not worth the effort, at least when you are working wood.:rolleyes:

[Art Mulder]

Al, I have the LV 50", it is very nice. That said, as an ex-machinist, I have a hard time believing that they could get it accurate to .003 for the entire length. The fixtures for holding the extrusion to machine without adding any undue stress must be something. That is, if it is really as accurate as they say...

Hi Bruce,

I'm not a machinist at all. So I will take your comments on faith.

That said, Lee Valley is one of the few companies out there who I will also trust enough to take their statements on faith also. I've been impressed with the honesty, quality, and genuine niceness of Lee Valley ever since I started dealing with them... oh about 10 years ago. From reading comments on this and other forums, it appears that many other people share my views.

If that wasn't enough, last month I was in Ottawa and was very fortunate to be given a guided tour of the Lee Valley head office, main warehouse, and (most importantly for this discussion) their factory/machine-shop.

Everywhere I went, I saw pleasant, happy, engaged, people who were fanatical about quality. This included the design people who were working on plans for new tools. This included the photography studio guys who were working on shots for the magazine (they told me that they weren't really satisfied with the quality of digital cameras until they could get an 18 megapixel unit!) This included the art department guys working on the magazine layout. This included the IT guys who showed off their server room (I'm a geek too, which is how that got onto the tour) And this included all the machine shop folks who were working on these humungous umpteen-thousand-dollar huge computer controlled machinist tools.

I saw things being inspected all over the place. For instance, I saw a fellow inspecting Veritas planes at the end of the line, and he had a whole list of spots where he would check each and every plane before passing it. I also saw some specific quality-control guys who had a special room with some dedicated measuring equipment where they could measure different points on a tool/item to verify everything down to very precise amounts to fall within detailed spec sheets.

It was fascinating. A lot of fun, too.

I hope this doesn't come across like I'm attacking you, Bruce. That isn't my intent at all. I just wanted to share my experience with LV, to show why I would take them at their word.

best,
...art

[Chris Padilla]

Seems to me like your putting too much emphasis on the level of accuracy on a straitedge for the purposes of working wood. This question seems to come up here on a fairly regular basis. Any reasonably strait ruler will work fine for adjusting jointer tables as long as it is over 24" in length. Remember, wood changes size by increments of 1/64 - 1/4" just due to moisture changes in the environment. Measuring to the thousandth of an inch is not worth the effort, at least when you are working wood.:rolleyes:

Steve Wilson hit the nail on the head: you want a good straight-edge to set up your machinery that cuts the wood...not necessarily for the wood itself since most know that wood moves. Heck, metal moves, too, just no where near as much as wood. One should always want their equipment set up for tolerances better than what that equipment can produce.

[Chris Padilla]

I just wanted to share my experience with LV, to show why I would take them at their word.

Like my Bessey clamps (all of their clamps), I know I can buy that brand and not worry an iota it will break the next day or won't work as advertised. I have developed the same feeling for stuff purchased from Lee Valley/Veritas. All of it is quality stuff and the best part is, somehow, they can keep their prices very reasonable for the quality!

It is so refreshing to have that kind of assurance from a company that you don't have to think twice. I have a mechanic I take my BMW to...same thing, I know he will be reasonable for charging me to fix it and they always get it right the first time. You can't imagine how nice it is to not have to worry the next time it needs work...especially on that pricey little sucker! :eek:

[Mark Rios]

I've always preferred to have my tools (that need to be adjusted) set up as accurately as I possibly can get them. This is also why I choose not to buy low quality tools. To me, if the tool is set up accurately, I know and can rely on the fact that any mistakes or errors (or not) in the work will be MY fault and that they can be fixed by better workmanship. Otherwise, I spend literally hours and days (as in the case of my Freud router that Charles just fixed for me) trying to find out what I'm doing wrong when it's the tool all along.

I try to buy good quality tools and then set them up to the anal degree then I can decide what level of quality will result and not have to let the tools dictate that for me.

As far as wood movement, don't we allow for "bad" or negative wood movement as opposed to "good" wood movement? In other words, if there is a gap in a joint, I've never seen one get "better" after the wood acclimates and ages, not mine anyway. :D I think that the trick is to get the joints as close as possible so that when the wood does move, the gaps, errors or mistakes are minimized right?

This is just the opinion of a bonehead woodworker. I may be all washed up. But if I am, I try to be washed up to within .0002 per foot. :D :D :D

[Barry Bruner]

Hi , kinda new on the forum and far from a expert but this sounds like a bit of overkill. Like Chris says about the wood movement and the are all your planer Blades at perfectly the same hieght and all you joints with in .0003. I enjoy the post buy I hope it don`t scare a new woodworker to buying a lot of machinist tools, I wouldn`t think the tollerence are the same. But I agree everything close to perfect would work better. BARRY BRUNER

[Robert Mayer]

I would say they are probably more than accurate for woodwork. Some of the finest furniture ever made was done without fancy straight edges.

[Chris Padilla]

Barry,

You don't need a lot of machinist (i.e. $$$s) tools but an investment in a good quality (i.e a little bit of $$s) straight-edge will really serve you well and last forever (assuming you don't drop it! :eek: ). The straight-edge can be used for so many things...you'll wonder how you got along without one once you have it!

I find it an invaluable tool and well worth the investment.

[Al Willits]

I just sent Lee Valley an email asking them about the accuracy of the straight edge, we'll see what they say.

Al

[Mike Jory]

I agree with the previous poster, I will buy tools that are much more accurate than what I may or may not be able to adjust. Table saw, jointer, planner, etc.
I figure that I must strive for a bnech mark and then increase my working capability to that mark.:D
But I would have to weigh the cost of a $54 straight edge compaired to how many times I could, or would need to use it?
Mike

[Chris Padilla]

But I would have to weigh the cost of a $54 straight edge compaired to how many times I could, or would need to use it?
Mike Get one...you'll be surprised how often you might grab it. :D

[Barry Bruner]

HI again, maybe I should have said that I can`t blame some off my less than acurate cuts on my Great Neck 4 foot yard stick that not a yard long. I understand your saying if the line is straight you have a lot more chance in dupilicating it in your cut and I totally agree. I work in a storeroom in a large alunimum plant and one day a empoylee checked out a level ,then returned it and showed me it wasn`t level. I`m sure this applies to straight edges as well. Barry Bruner

[Allen Bookout]

Get one...you'll be surprised how often you might grab it. :D
I totally agree.

Allen

[Chris Barton]

Steve Wilson hit the nail on the head: you want a good straight-edge to set up your machinery that cuts the wood...not necessarily for the wood itself since most know that wood moves. Heck, metal moves, too, just no where near as much as wood. One should always want their equipment set up for tolerances better than what that equipment can produce.

I hear what you'er saying but, not everyone is going to have the >$50 for a strait edge. And, since you don't really need that level of accuracy for setting up something that machines wood, then why buy it? You end up fussing around fiddling with machinery trying to get it accurate to .001" when it has absolutely no bearing on the finished product. If you like playing with machines that's great but, if you want to make furniture, it irrelevant. Robert Mayer had it right, the finest examples of furniture from the past 3 centuries never had the ability to measure to the .001" degree of accuracy. This then becomes an exercise in pedantics...

[Bruce Page]

I hope this doesn't come across like I'm attacking you, Bruce. That isn't my intent at all. I just wanted to share my experience with LV, to show why I would take them at their word.

best,
...art
Art, when reading your post, that never entered my mind.

I certainly wasn’t slamming LV. They are a first-class company and everything that I have ever bought from them has exceeded my expectations. My comment was more of wonder at how they could purchase the raw stock, perform very accurate machining, advertise, and still make a profit selling them at $57.50. Surely, there isn’t that huge of a demand for 50” straight edges!
The machining on my straight edge was very nicely done, I don’t doubt that it is accurate too.

[Nick Roper]

I just sent Lee Valley an email asking them about the accuracy of the straight edge, we'll see what they say.

Al

That will be interesting to find out. It seems to be covered in DIN 874 however, I was not so interested that it was worth 96.00 to read about it.

[Al Willits]

Ok, got this back from Lee valley, they also sent an attachment of a picture, it basicly showed a feeler gauge being inserted between the straight edge and the table, showing how they measured.

Haven't heard anybody yet say they have one and its not as accurate as they say it is, so I'm leaning towards buying one.

Al who has his band saw to set up next, but may just spare ya all of that episode.....:)

=========

We have received a reply from our Research and Development department and they have informed us the following:

The flatness for the straight edge is not certified.

“When measuring the flatness the straight edge is placed on a flat surface plate and at most a .003 shim will fit between the surface plate and the surface of the straight edge resting on the surface plate.”

They have also sent us the following attachment for you.

We hope this helps.

Cheers,

Jeff Curling
Internet Customer Service Representative

[Chris Padilla]

I hear what you'er saying but, not everyone is going to have the >$50 for a strait edge. And, since you don't really need that level of accuracy for setting up something that machines wood, then why buy it? You end up fussing around fiddling with machinery trying to get it accurate to .001" when it has absolutely no bearing on the finished product. If you like playing with machines that's great but, if you want to make furniture, it irrelevant. Robert Mayer had it right, the finest examples of furniture from the past 3 centuries never had the ability to measure to the .001" degree of accuracy. This then becomes an exercise in pedantics...

Chris,

I guess we will just have to disagree about this, eh? ;) I happen to think adjusting machines that cut wood to fine tolerances does have a bearing on the final product...it sure does mine! :) I think at some points during that 3 centuries, they didn't even have machines that could be adjusted as such! :) I have machines that can be adjusted as such so I do it and I think it adds a lot to my work. Peace, my namesake!

P.S. I don't think pedantics is a word but I get your point. ;) (A pendantic exercise?)

[Al Willits]

Hummm...looks like Chris posted after my last post, but I don't see it..I'm going blind maybe???

Al

[Steven Wilson]

Chris,
I think at some points during that 3 centuries, they didn't even have machines that could be adjusted as such!

Shure they did Chris they just didn't have measuring tools to quantify it. Although I may use large shop machines for case goods I also like to neander it a bit and make furniture using handtools (even thickness planing and riping stock with hand tools). Guess what? All of those hand planes, throats, saw sets, etc. are set up at the .001" level or so. It's just that you go through some basic mechanical means to get there instead of useing machinist measuring tools - but the precision is there.

As a test, take your powered jointer and raise one blade .005" or .010" higher than the other blades. Now edge joint a piece of wood. Notice the scalloped edges? Can you mate two pieces with the nice scalloped edges? Now get that blade back to level. Notice how the scalloped edge went away. Of course you can't simulate that with a hand plane because you only have 1 blade. But if you want to get a feel for lack of precision just take your jointer plane and knock the blade out of alignment so that it's skewed in the throat. See that lovely bevel you cut on the edge knocking it out of square. Of course to reset you just slip a piece of paper under the front of the plane, loosen up the blade and let it rest on your bench. Walla! you've just reset your jointer blade to be square with the plane - probably well near .001" from side to side variance. It's just that you use a different method that gives you the precission. The tool set up practices 200-300 years ago ensured precission just like us using machine setup tools on our stationary machines today. This notion of inacurate tools producing great work is a bunch of hooey.