Need a sparky! What am I doing wrong?

[Julio Navarro]

I am still having problems with my cyclone motor.

I started having a problem with the LongrangerIII remote tripping when I started the cyclone so I disconnected the cyclone from the remote and pluged it directly to the power line. But then the breaker in the panel did the same thing. I removed the motor to see if I was wiring it wrong (I did notice that the motor was very very hot). I re-connected all the connections to make sure they were firm and tight, re-installed the motor but it kept tripping the breaker.

I am at a loss so I am asking for a sparky's help.

Heres the set up:

The motor is 5hp rated 230KVA 15A draw at full power.
I have it connected to a 220V, 30A breaker.
I am using 10-3 wire (the white is not hooked up to anything)

I know that a starting motor draws much more than when it is running at full power. But if I put a larger amp breaker what does it do to protect the 15A motor (I know that 30A is not protecting its rated 15A as it is)?

I think the wiring is correct, I dont think I wired it wrong, I have both LINE wires connected to the terminals on the motor and the ground connected to the ground screw. The LINE wires come from a 220V 15A breaker on the panel and runs to an 220V outlet box where I can plug the LRII into or the line to the motor directly.

As a note: I had been running the cyclone for a week or so with out a problem.

When I had the motor down I inspected the rotation and it was smooth and unobstructed.

So, I am at a loss as to what is wrong.

Please help.

[Don Baer]

Julio,
You need to get your hands on an amp meter. Does it trip with all of the blast gates closed ?

The motor would only trip for one of three reason, Over load, bad wiring or you have an internal problem with the motor. If the wiring is ok and it the motor is not being overloaded then it's time to pull the motor and take it to a motor shop.

[Kent Fitzgerald]

I agree with Don - you don't want to do any more trial-and-error troubleshooting. A clamp-on ammeter is a very useful tool, and you can get a decent one for under $70.

To use the ammeter, you need to put the jaws around one and only one of the current-carrying conductors. This is usually best done at the motor junction box. Just to clarify a perennial point of confusion, you measure the current in one conductor, and the reading you get is the total current through the motor. Do not double the amp reading, or add the current readings from the two conductors.

[Steve Rowe]

Julio,
I have the following input:

A 230 V 5HP single phase motor draws more like 28 amps at full load and not 15 amps. The 15 amp full load rating would be about right for a 3 phase motor. If you are attempting to run a 3 phase motor on single phase power, I would expect something similar to what you are observing but would be surprized if the motor ran at all.
Circuit breakers are designed to protect your wiring and not the load. That is why motors have thermal overload protectors either in the motor itself or the controller.
Copper 10 gage wire is on the ragged edge of acceptability for a 5 HP motor particularly if you have a long run of wiring. This would cause voltage drop resulting in higher currents and more heating. Also, check to make sure you have the proper voltage at the outlet. Make sure you are meeting your local electrical codes.
Is your Long Ranger rated for the motor size?From your situation, it sounds like it is time to call in a licensed electrician.
Steve

[Don Baer]

Julio,
What is the FLA on the motor nameplate?

[Frank Hagan]

While you're checking the FLA, check the Service Factor (or, SF) number. If its 1.0 or less, you don't really have a 5hp motor, and that could explain why the stated amps don't match what a 5hp motor should have. In some industries, such as pool pumps, it is common to "up rate" the motor's HP by fudging with the service factor. I haven't checked, but I've long suspected that Harbor Freight's inexpensive motors probably use this trick.

[Julio Navarro]

While you're checking the FLA, check the Service Factor (or, SF) number. If its 1.0 or less, you don't really have a 5hp motor, and that could explain why the stated amps don't match what a 5hp motor should have. In some industries, such as pool pumps, it is common to "up rate" the motor's HP by fudging with the service factor. I haven't checked, but I've long suspected that Harbor Freight's inexpensive motors probably use this trick.
The motor is HF 3hp (*cough* previously rated 5hp *cough*) its FLA is 15 and SF is 1.0

The motor starts out running for about 3 seconds but before it reaches full rpms the breaker trips if its plugged directly to the breaker or the Long Ranger III remote trips if it is plugged into that.

Either way, plugged into the breaker or the remote it trips.

The breaker is a 220v 30amp breaker.

The only common denominator is the outlet and box that the remote unit plugs into, I am going to check that right now. I am very certain that the motor is wired correctly as I re-connected it last night making sure the terminal where tight. It runs well if it reaches the full rmps without tripping. But more often than not it trips.

The thermal protection on the motor has NOT tripped so its not over heating (cough, cough)

[Jeff Horton]

I am using 10-3 wire (the white is not hooked up to anything)

But if I put a larger amp breaker what does it do to protect the 15A motor (I know that 30A is not protecting its rated 15A as it is)?

Your statement that the white is not connected to anything bothers me. Can you elaborate on that?? I am assuming that is the ground and it's very important to have a ground hooked up for safety reasons.

Breakers do not protect the load (motor or what ever), they are there to protect the wire from over heating and burning down your house or shop.

[CPeter James]

That 15 amp breaker is too small. You need 10 ga wire and a 20 or 30 amp breaker. After that see what happens. Your symptoms are exactly what the too small breaker would produce. It tries to hold and then trips. Starting current can be 10 time or more or running current.

CPeter

[Kent Fitzgerald]

Your statement that the white is not connected to anything bothers me. Can you elaborate on that?? I am assuming that is the ground and it's very important to have a ground hooked up for safety reasons.

Jeff, 10-3 cable has two hot conductors (black, red), a neutral (white) and ground (bare). The neutral is not used in a 240V-only circuit.

[Steve Rowe]

Julio,
It sounds like you have a problem with one of the following internal motor components:

Centrifugal switch
Start capacitor or
Run capacitor ( if your motor has it)I suspect the centrifugal switch is intermittently sticking since you have been successful sometimes. It sounds like a return to HF or a trip to a motor repair shop is in order. Before I went that route, I would verify one last time it is not the outlet by starting a similar size load on it.
Steve


The motor is HF 3hp (*cough* previously rated 5hp *cough*) its FLA is 15 and SF is 1.0

The motor starts out running for about 3 seconds but before it reaches full rpms the breaker trips if its plugged directly to the breaker or the Long Ranger III remote trips if it is plugged into that.

Either way, plugged into the breaker or the remote it trips.

The breaker is a 220v 30amp breaker.

The only common denominator is the outlet and box that the remote unit plugs into, I am going to check that right now. I am very certain that the motor is wired correctly as I re-connected it last night making sure the terminal where tight. It runs well if it reaches the full rmps without tripping. But more often than not it trips.

The thermal protection on the motor has NOT tripped so its not over heating (cough, cough)

[Jeff Horton]

Jeff, 10-3 cable has two hot conductors (black, red), a neutral (white) and ground (bare). The neutral is not used in a 240V-only circuit.

Duhh, didn't register when I read 10-3.

Never mind :o

[Jim O'Dell]

That 15 amp breaker is too small. You need 10 ga wire and a 20 or 30 amp breaker. After that see what happens. Your symptoms are exactly what the too small breaker would produce. It tries to hold and then trips. Starting current can be 10 time or more or running current.

CPeter

CPeter, you must have read too quickly :D Julio is on a 30 amp 220 volt breaker. The FLA reading on the motor is 15.

Julio, I'd check the motor. Sounds like something there is causing the problem, even though I'm not a sparky, and I didn't stay in a....never mind. Good luck. Jim.

[Kent Fitzgerald]

I should have added that what I wrote is true for NM (Romex) cable. But just to make things more confusing, for flexible cord (e.g., SJO), the ground wire is included in the conductor count.

[Julio Navarro]

That 15 amp breaker is too small. You need 10 ga wire and a 20 or 30 amp breaker. After that see what happens. Your symptoms are exactly what the too small breaker would produce. It tries to hold and then trips. Starting current can be 10 time or more or running current.

CPeter
Cpeter: the breaker at the panel is a 30A breaker, the motor FLA is 15A.


I checked the outlet and the 240V plug and all the wiring appears good, no sparks no shorts.

I have a feeling its the motor which wouldnt surprise me considering its a HF piece of.....well, its HF, need I say more?

Good thing is I got the extended warranty bad thing is its heavy as heck and I need to almost take the whole set up down in order to remove the motor. It certainly is aggravating.



Julio,
It sounds like you have a problem with one of the following internal motor components:
Centrifugal switch
Start capacitor or
Run capacitor ( if your motor has it) I suspect the centrifugal switch is intermittently sticking since you have been successful sometimes. It sounds like a return to HF or a trip to a motor repair shop is in order. Before I went that route, I would verify one last time it is not the outlet by starting a similar size load on it.
Steve

I suspect this is close to the problem... The motor sounds like it just runs out of juice, like it just cant get enough power to fully get going and tries to suck more amps out of the circuit then the breaker trips.

When I first had the motor hooked up it seemed to start quicker and with little heistation, now it cant reach full speed fast enough.

I touched the housing of the motor after a few attempts to get it started and it felt very hot to the touch, infact, I couldnt keep my hand on it it was so hot. That doesnt seem normal to me.

I dont think I can get my money back from HF but I guess I will have to take it back. I cant see what else I can do. Trying to get it repaired would be cost prohibiting.

[Julio Navarro]

CPeter, you must have read too quickly :D Julio is on a 30 amp 220 volt breaker. The FLA reading on the motor is 15.

Julio, I'd check the motor. Sounds like something there is causing the problem, even though I'm not a sparky, and I didn't stay in a....never mind. Good luck. Jim.
LOL, thanks Jim for making me laugh! "I didnt stay at a..." haha, very funny!

On this long, long dissapointing weekend I need a small laugh.

Ive been working on getting my shop ready to work confortably. I had the cyclone finished, most of my shop furniture done, wiring run to all my machnes, the BS tunned and ready, my router table working well...and now the motor on my cyclone goes caput after only no more than a few hours of total opperation. Very, very dissappointing, it seems like this endeavor has had more than its share of dissappointments.

I am not looking forward to taking that motor off the top of the cyclone.

[Jim O'Dell]

Glad I could help in some small matter :rolleyes: , just wish it had been an easy fix for your problem. If you try to take if off in place, be sure and get some help. Best bet will probably be to take the cyclone down and do it that way. I have mine set up where I can take the cyclone body off, then lower the motor/blower housing as a unit. The way I built my stand (separate from the wall) I can lower the motor/blower by myself. I can also put it up by myself fairly easily. Hope you get it back up and running without too much of a delay! Jim.

[Sparky Paessler]

Julio

I have the same motor on my 12" jointer and have had trouble with it also. It seems to have trouble either getting up to speed or with the starter contacts kicking off. It has burned up two starter caps. I finally put a higher voltage rated starter cap on it and also wired a neon light to the starter circuit that I watch when I turn it on. If it doesn't go out in a second to two I turn it off and try again. This is just a temp fix until I replace the motor with a "good" one. When I get time I am going to pull the motor apartand look at the start contacts and see if they are sticking or something else is wrong. I would recommend replacing that motor for your dust collector. I used a Lesson motor on my cyclone and a heavy duty magnetic starter.

A "Sparky"

Sparky Paessler (The Sparky has nothing to do with electricity)

[Julio Navarro]

Julio

I have the same motor on my 12" jointer and have had trouble with it also. It seems to have trouble either getting up to speed or with the starter contacts kicking off. It has burned up two starter caps. I finally put a higher voltage rated starter cap on it and also wired a neon light to the starter circuit that I watch when I turn it on. If it doesn't go out in a second to two I turn it off and try again. This is just a temp fix until I replace the motor with a "good" one. When I get time I am going to pull the motor apartand look at the start contacts and see if they are sticking or something else is wrong. I would recommend replacing that motor for your dust collector. I used a Lesson motor on my cyclone and a heavy duty magnetic starter.

A "Sparky"

Sparky Paessler (The Sparky has nothing to do with electricity)

Sparky!

I was wondering when you'd show up!

JK, but seriously, I think you are right, what you described sounds like what is happening.

Where is the starter cap? How easy can they be replaced?

[Frank Hagan]

The motor is HF 3hp (*cough* previously rated 5hp *cough*) its FLA is 15 and SF is 1.0

The motor starts out running for about 3 seconds but before it reaches full rpms the breaker trips if its plugged directly to the breaker or the Long Ranger III remote trips if it is plugged into that.

Either way, plugged into the breaker or the remote it trips.

The breaker is a 220v 30amp breaker.

The only common denominator is the outlet and box that the remote unit plugs into, I am going to check that right now. I am very certain that the motor is wired correctly as I re-connected it last night making sure the terminal where tight. It runs well if it reaches the full rmps without tripping. But more often than not it trips.

The thermal protection on the motor has NOT tripped so its not over heating (cough, cough)

Well, with that low a SF, its not a 3hp either! If the motor label says "3HP" and the SF says "1.0", then its a 2 or 2.5 HP motor. There's a formula somewhere, but I'd guess 15amps at 230v equals 2hp, not 3hp. That may help you when/if you replace it with one from Leeson or Baldor. They don't "uprate" the motor labels, so it can be confusing comparing prices.

And, are you sure that motor has thermal protection? Not all do. When I was looking for a 1/2 HP motor for my drill press, I noted that some of the HF motors didn't have thermal overloads.

[Julio Navarro]

So why would a 2.5hp motor have such a hard time starting up? why would the Long Ranger remote, which is rated for a 3hp motor, keep shutting off?

This particular motor does have thermal protection, there's a red button on top.

this is the motor
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=7570

[Don Baer]

Well, with that low a SF, its not a 3hp either! If the motor label says "3HP" and the SF says "1.0"

Frank,
Where did you get that information. 1.0 SF mean 1.0 service factor. Accorting to my NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Assc.) hand book that mean if a motor is rated at 3 HP with a 1.0 SF then it will pull 3 HP all day. Some motors have a 1.15 SF that means you can overload it to 1.15 times the rated hp with out any damage on a continuous basis. Please please don't confuse people with false ideas. I have been applying motors to machinery for 35 years. I have worked with motors from sub fractional Horsepower to 10,000 Horsepower. AC motor and DC motors and alike.

[Julio Navarro]

Don:

Does that SF 1.0 mean I can keep the motor running for say 3 hours at a time without doing any damage to the motor?

Or do I need to turn it on and off only when using it and does turning it on and off over and over again do more damage than keeping it on for a long period?

Assuming the motor works is it better practice to just turn it on while working and off whne I leave the shop?

[Don Baer]

Julio,
1.0 Service Factor means continuous. That means 8 hours if you want. The thing you don't want to do is start and stop the motors more then a few times an hour. Starting and stopping is worse on a motor then running it continuously. Thats why people who use blast gastes that start and stop the motors install a off delay timer to keep the motor running as they go from machine to machine.

[Jim Becker]

Julio,
You need to get your hands on an amp meter. Does it trip with all of the blast gates closed ?

The motor would only trip for one of three reason, Over load, bad wiring or you have an internal problem with the motor. If the wiring is ok and it the motor is not being overloaded then it's time to pull the motor and take it to a motor shop.

Just as a note in case someone else didn't mention it, the motor/impeller works the hardest with the gates open, not closed. So to test amperage draw under load, there has to be maximum air flow.

[Julio Navarro]

Just as a note in case someone else didn't mention it, the motor/impeller works the hardest with the gates open, not closed. So to test amperage draw under load, there has to be maximum air flow.
Jim:

If I un-hook the blower form the duct work so its open at the intake will this be the best way to test it?

[Frank Hagan]

Frank,
Where did you get that information. 1.0 SF mean 1.0 service factor. Accorting to my NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Assc.) hand book that mean if a motor is rated at 3 HP with a 1.0 SF then it will pull 3 HP all day. Some motors have a 1.15 SF that means you can overload it to 1.15 times the rated hp with out any damage on a continuous basis. Please please don't confuse people with false ideas. I have been applying motors to machinery for 35 years. I have worked with motors from sub fractional Horsepower to 10,000 Horsepower. AC motor and DC motors and alike.

Don, take a look at the chart at http://www.franklin-electric.com/empd/product/pool_spa_1_square.html which identifies what I'm talking about. Note the amp draw on the various motors. The 1 HP "full rate" design has a SF of 1.65 and draws 20.4/10.2 amps (230v / 115v). Now look at the bottom chart ... their uprate 1.5 HP motor has a SF of 1.10 and draws 20.4/10.2 amps (230v / 115v). These are the same motors, with just slightly different information on the label. They cost the same.

But here's the rub. Consumers shopping for a 1 HP motor are often confused by this, and will buy the 1 HP uprate motor ... in this case, one drawing 14.0/7.0 amps ... instead of the exact replacement 1 HP full rate ... often on price.

I have no doubt that you are technically correct regarding the REAL reason you have a service factor on motors. However, I've seen consumers cheated now for going on 20 years by this game, done mostly by pool equipment companies and other places (like HF) who have buyers who don't know what they are buying. I have even seen motor labels with SF less than 1.0 sold as replacing the full rate motors, and motors without a SF rating at all.

[Don Baer]

NO, Then you will be creating the worse possible case. The blower needs to have the duct work connected otherwise you will overload. Actually Run the motor with all gates close this will be the least amount of load on the motor. Then open the blast gate closest to the DC and this will be the worse case. If you still are not overloading the motor and you want to try then open two blast gates. with it running. you should see and increase in amp draw.

[Frank Hagan]

Julio, the information I've read on DC is that all of the motors with those large impellers connected need some resistance or will over-amp. So if you turn it on without ducting connected, you will over-amp, overheat, and trip either the breaker or the thermal overload. So if you're testing all of this without any ducting connected ... well, shame on us for not asking about this! Your ammeter will show high amp draw without ducting attached, but it could be because the motor is freewheeling and not able to "bite" the air. Some of the DC units do have a smaller inlet plate that allows you to run them without ducting.

[Julio Navarro]

Just FYI, all the gates are closed except for one at the very end of the run about 12 feet away from the inlet.

Let me clarify, the duct run is installed and only one out let actually works, its at the very end of the run. So I think that means that there is good static preassure.

[Sparky Paessler]

Julio

The starter and run caps are under the two large metal covers sticking up on top of the motor. On my motor the starter cap is the one nearest the label on the motor.

Sparky