Tool buying advice

[Nathan Hoffman]

I am setting up my shop and need some advice from some woodworkers with more experience than I have. I currently own a good Makita circular saw and a new PC cordless drill, some hand tools, a Paslode finish nailer, and an el cheapo Chicago Electric 3 hp plunge router. I am going to be trimming out my new house, but plan to make some flooring and plenty of furniture in the future. My question is this - with my limited budget, what are the tools I need to start with? A tablesaw is a no brainer, and I'll need a good miter saw for the trim. I also have a lot of rough cherry, walnut, and honey locust wood to be used, so I'll probably need a jointer. Are there certain brands which would be better than others? What kind of router table/ shaper setup is best? Thanks!

[Noah Alkinburgh]

Nathan,

The big four you would want are a TS, Band Saw, Jointer and Planer. With that being said, you just shot 4 months of your mortgage payments or more buying those :D

If your main goal right now is trimming out your house you could get by with a good mitersaw i.e. a slider or big 12". That will crosscut most stuff you would need too and do your corners etc. I would also highly, highly recomend you get at least a low angle block plane...a good one if you don't want to mess getting it set up. This will really help you get the perfect fit on your moldings...

Now if you are going to be painting, the perfect fit is not so important you just use the carpenters best friend: CAULK :D

Good luck and let us know how the projects go.

Noah

[Dave Hammelef]

Engage that brain. The table saw being a no brainer, only if you look in America. If I started my shop today, I would have to give a long hard thought about a table saw. It does alot of things ok, but alot of the tools you mention do those same things better (depending on definition of better). THink this way, what size and condition of wood are you going to buy, and what steps are you going to have to take it through to get your finished product. Then think about after doing that with all the things you want to build, what steps are needed to be performed and what tools best cover your needs. A euro-multi machine (like a rojek spelling is wrong) might be the best choice, however a festool saw and rail system might be a better choice if your working with panel goods and are alone in the shop.

[mike malone]

I am setting up my shop and need some advice from some woodworkers with more experience than I have. I Thanks!

Nathan
Noah is right on the money (TS, BS, PLaner and jointer) Just get used US made stuff and you can always resell them and get your money back....not so with most of the foreign stuff. Have fun, Mike

[Ted Shrader]

I am setting up my shop and need some advice from some woodworkers with more experience than I have. . . . . A tablesaw is a no brainer, and I'll need a good miter saw for the trim. I also have a lot of rough cherry, walnut, and honey locust wood to be used, so I'll probably need a jointer. Are there certain brands which would be better than others? What kind of router table/ shaper setup is best? Thanks!

Nathan -

An oft discussed question. The limiting factor in most all cases is the budget. Assuming you are like most of the rest of us and can't stroke a check for the whole shootin' match at once, you must prioritize.

Noah's suggestion about the basic four is a good one. Dave suggestion about multi-purpose machines helps cover those four. But what are your limits? How can you do a given task? For most woodworking tasks there are at least three different ways to accomplish any given task. Each way with it's own merits.

With your priorities in mind, your order of "major" tool purchases will sort itself out. My recommendation is buy the best quality tools you can afford and possibly forego other "major" tool purchases in order to get a good quality tool now. You will save money in the long run by not being forced to "re-buy" your tools as you replace them. Good quality tools are easier to work with and will last a lifetime with proper care.

Ted

[Nathan Hoffman]

Nathan -

An oft discussed question. The limiting factor in most all cases is the budget. Assuming you are like most of the rest of us and can't stroke a check for the whole shootin' match at once, you must prioritize.

Ted

I definitely need to economize, and my first priority is to trim the house, and that includes making some of my own trim. After that, it will be making the flooring out of the honey locust wood, followed by basic furniture/ some cabinet type work as the need arises. I forgot to mention that I have access to my friend's 20" planer, so I won't need one of those right away. I may be able to buy a radial arm saw from my brother for cheap - any downside to those things? With all the router/shaper type work I need to do, what is the best method? Thanks for all the input!

[Wes Bischel]

I started with a good old hand miterbox, then bought a power miterbox - don't forget the good old hand tools when budgets are tight.
I would also echo looking for used iron. If you have any mechanical abilities - or have friends that do, your whole shop can be fitted for very little money. My 30 year old Rockwell TS was had for $100 - after 13 years of flawless service, I just put new bearings in it for a total of $15. My TomLee bandsaw (60 years old) was free for the taking (trash day find) New tires, grease and a good coat of paint was all it needed. Keep your eyes open, and put out the word with friends and family, you will be surprised what shows up - though, not necessarily in the order you might expect.

Wes


Noah said:
"Now if you are going to be painting, the perfect fit is not so important you just use the carpenters best friend: CAULK "

A quote heard from a contractor in NJ - (needs to be said with a
real good NJ accent)
"A little caulk, a little paint, makes a job what it ain't" :p

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Nathan,

Welcome to the Creek. I agree the a TS would not be on the high priority list. If you look at the current Fine Woodworking article of going from rought to finish stock it is only used in the final step. You may want to try the Pens state industries saw guide for your current saw for sheet goods.

Try as many tools as possible before you buy. Take classes at the local community college or vo-tech or Woodcraft to try things out. Wfere are you. Several people like to show off their shops and expound the virtues of their machines.

One word of advise:
Set up every thing the day you get it and wait until you have a specific job for a tool. This helps find any problem while you still have the reciept and the sales person remembers you. DAMHIKT (Don't
ask me how I know this) Don't be afraid to ask what an accronym means.

Have fun and be safe.


Good luck

[Brad Schafer]

I definitely need to economize, and my first priority is to trim the house, and that includes making some of my own trim. After that, it will be making the flooring out of the honey locust wood, followed by basic furniture/ some cabinet type work as the need arises. I forgot to mention that I have access to my friend's 20" planer, so I won't need one of those right away. I may be able to buy a radial arm saw from my brother for cheap - any downside to those things? With all the router/shaper type work I need to do, what is the best method? Thanks for all the input!

Nathan -

As with all things, YMMV, but ...

A few years back, I did something similar to what you're talking about. I built (and trimmed out) my own house. All interior is Ohio-grown red oak. I milled all trim (crown mould, plate rail, base, case, stairs), and also built all doors and door cases, and window shelves for each window (23 of 'em). I didn't want to tackle floors due to volume (1600+ sqft), so I the sawmill hooked me up with a local guy who had a mill. I bought the T&G bits in exchange for him milling the wood, and it worked out pretty well.

I did the whole thing with 3 "large" tools:

a) an old (1950s) Craftsman 10" table saw
b) an old (1950s) Craftsman 6" jointer
c) an old (1960s) Craftsman 10" radial arm saw

Also had a Dewalt ROS and (you guessed it) an old Craftsman 4" belt sander. Oh - also had an old Craftsman router, but I only used it for a few round-over operations.

(This was all stuff my grandpa had accumulated over the years; so I didn't have to purchase anything outside of a few drills and the ROS).

I had two moulding head sets (1 3-cutter, 1 1-cutter), an 8" dado stack (yup - Craftsman) and a variety of blades ... and I milled EVERYTHING at the table saw. I could probably have acquired a shaper or a decent router/table setup, but the TS worked just dandy for me.

The only difficulty with cutting moulding on the saw was profile consistency (particularly when a profile called for multiple passes and cuts), but you get creative when you have to.

On the RAS: if the thing has been beat, it might be difficult to get "trued up" or get to stay true. Once mine was set, it did a nice job, but you might be better for the aggravation to just get a nice SCMS and spend the time doing something else. Oh - DON'T rip with it. DAMHIKT.

I'm not recommending this necessarily, just letting you know that it can be done with decent results.

Best of luck,


b

[Nathan Hoffman]

Nathan -

As with all things, YMMV, but ...

I had two moulding head sets (1 3-cutter, 1 1-cutter), an 8" dado stack (yup - Craftsman) and a variety of blades ... and I milled EVERYTHING at the table saw. I could probably have acquired a shaper or a decent router/table setup, but the TS worked just dandy for me.

The only difficulty with cutting moulding on the saw was profile consistency (particularly when a profile called for multiple passes and cuts), but you get creative when you have to.

I'm not recommending this necessarily, just letting you know that it can be done with decent results.

Best of luck,


b


A couple of qestions:
- What does YMMV mean?
- Since I do not have a router table (or any router bits to speak of) or a table saw, which is the best to get now? I intend to get both eventually, but I can't spend a lot right now.
- Should I consider a small shaper since I have so much modling to do?


Thanks for all the responses

[Noah Alkinburgh]

A couple of qestions:
- What does YMMV mean?
- Since I do not have a router table (or any router bits to speak of) or a table saw, which is the best to get now? I intend to get both eventually, but I can't spend a lot right now.
- Should I consider a small shaper since I have so much modling to do?


Thanks for all the responses

YMMV = Your Milage May Vary

a router table you can build yourself out of some plywood.

router bits well that depends alot on what you want to do and may cost you as much as a good tables saw (no joke)

I would buy a good plunge router (read high horsepower and amps with variable speed) and build a router table for it before I bought a shaper...if you are thinking the little delta "shaper" it is just a permanently mounted router base in a cabinet. You will get much more versatility out of the router.

A router table can be as simple as an old counter top with a cutout for the router. Just needs to be flat.

Noah

[Jason Roehl]

One thing that should be said here is this. First, figure out WHAT you want to BUILD and HOW you want to build it. That will help you determine tool purchase order. It makes no sense to buy a bandsaw if all you are going to build is rectangular picture frames. With all that being said, I would say that the router is probably the most versatile power tool, with a tablesaw being a close second.

[Nathan Hoffman]

I need to make and install trim for my house, and then make flooring. After that it will be basic furniture/cabinet type work. My question really is about the best way to make the moldings and flooring: router table, shaper or table saw witha molding head.

[Daniel Rabinovitz]

Nathan
In addition to all the good advice above
Get two really good saw blades - one for the miter saw - one for the table saw; if you are going to cut alot of plywood, then two blades for the table saw. I use FORREST blades and they give me a really smoooooooooooth cut.
The first piece of big equipment that was purchased was a 12" Dewalt miter saw (because the price was right) and also a Forrest blade for it (in the store at the same time $100.00). Got it home - took off the standard blade and stashed it under the workbench and put on the Forrest blade. Haven't seen the origonal blade since - wonder if it's still under the workbench.

Now that goes for all you blades, for hand planes or saws - get the best and you'll get a "fine" cut. Don't skimp!
Daniel

[Dave Hammelef]

I need to make and install trim for my house, and then make flooring. After that it will be basic furniture/cabinet type work. My question really is about the best way to make the moldings and flooring: router table, shaper or table saw witha molding head.
Well Nathan, I will try to answer your question since your title seems to have misdirected everyone.

1st you want to make your own trim. What design. Some designs can be done simply on a table saw, others need at least a router in a table, and some really should be done with a shaper. Of course you need to get the boards to the width you need can be purchased that way or cut down on tablesaw, or bandsaw, could be done (not recomended with router or shaper).

2nd Installing trim, I would say a good miter saw (compound if doing crown molding) and a pancake compressor with brad nailer.

3rd Flooring, what type of wood are you starting with a log, rough cut lumber, or surfaced 4 sides (S4S). If S4S you need a tounge a groove bit for a router or shaper, or could be done on a tablesaw. Rough cut, you need to add a jointer and planer to get to S4S. A log add a bandsaw to get to rough cut. A tree add a chainsaw to get to log.

Of course we have not talked about sanding or finishing yet.

I do not mean to scare you away, but to avoid the It depends or just people shouting out tools, a very good description of what your going to do needs to be discussed. I wish someone would have made me sit down and think out the entire wood processing steps I was going to do and/or wanted to do. I might not own a 6" jointer if I had really thought it out. I use it occasionally but find it easier/ faster to buy stuff Thats flat from mill (skip jointed) then just use my thickness planer, a bandsaw for resawing it would have done me alot more good then the jointer.

dave

[Dave Hammelef]

Lets not turn this into the merits of a jointer. They have a purpose I just dont like using one thats all.

[Brad Schafer]

I need to make and install trim for my house, and then make flooring. After that it will be basic furniture/cabinet type work. My question really is about the best way to make the moldings and flooring: router table, shaper or table saw witha molding head.

To continue Dave's (well-stated) post and my earlier rant ...

You are absolutely where I was a few years ago. You've got 2 different need sets: 1 short term (build the house), 1 longer term (build other stuff). There's some overlap in tools, but I'd suggest concentrating on the problem at hand.

On mouldings: it definitely depends on how complex you intend to get, and how intricate you want to be. If you're just putting a simple edge on a board, or just require 1 or 2 passes per board to get what you want, a router might be okay. If you're looking to do Victorian-style ornamentation, well ... that's problematic without spending a lot of money. Either way, repeatability is paramount. If you go the router route :rolleyes:, you'll want some type of table and aninfeed/outfeed setup. I build a couple of cheap tables out of scrap precuts and MDF, and still use them. You'll also have money in router bits. If you go the TS route, you'll have money in the saw, in a couple of decent blades, a dado head, an insert and a moulding kit. The moulding kit may cost you as much as a decent router (sans bits).

On moulding installation: I used my radial arm and a manual mitre-box instead of buying a CMS. Saved money, but running back and forth to the RAS was a pain. The mitre-box was great, but I don't cut as fast as a machine. :)

On flooring and lumber in general: this is where I paid extra. I didn't want to fool with straight-edging, flat-siding and what not. There was too much wood and too little time. I got my raw lumber from a sawmill that had a couple big Delta thickness planer/edgers on site. For an extra $.05/bdft they did it for me (since I was buying a relatively large bunch of wood from them).

BTW - my experience is that trying to mill any substantial amount of flooring from relatively raw lumber using small tools is very difficult, particularly if you're doing t&g.

Where are you getting your lumber? How much time are you giving yourself? How much floor are you putting down? How many lineal feet of base will you need? Of crown mould? Of casing for doors/windows?

Lots to think about,

b

[Nathan Hoffman]

Thanks for all of the input! This is great!

The trim I intend to make is a mix of simple and more complex pieces (baseboard, chair rail, crown, window trim), and I already own several hundred bdf of rough lumber (cherry, ash, walnut, redwood, honey locust), but I will probably need to buy more depending on which room and what material I am working with. I guess I will need some rip capability, because it is all various widths. I have access to my freind's 20" Shop Fox planer, and I can probably get the boards jointed on one edge there also. There is a way to cut a square edge on a rough board using a table saw jig, isn't there?

As far as installation goes, I have a Paslode cordless finish nailer, and I can probably borrow an old Makita 10" miter saw (not CMS). Can't I just make a jig to hold the crown molding upright and not need the compound action?

As far as the flooring goes, there is only one (100 sq ft) room that I am definitely planning to do, and I have about 150 sq ft of rough milled honey locust, and another huge log to have sawed if I find another room that could use some sprucing up.

Sound like I may need a table saw anyway, but should I invest in a molding unit or a table and bits for my router?

Again, thanks for the advice.

[Brad Schafer]

Thanks for all of the input! This is great!

The trim I intend to make is a mix of simple and more complex pieces (baseboard, chair rail, crown, window trim), and I already own several hundred bdf of rough lumber (cherry, ash, walnut, redwood, honey locust), but I will probably need to buy more depending on which room and what material I am working with. I guess I will need some rip capability, because it is all various widths. I have access to my freind's 20" Shop Fox planer, and I can probably get the boards jointed on one edge there also. There is a way to cut a square edge on a rough board using a table saw jig, isn't there?

Sound like I may need a table saw anyway, but should I invest in a molding unit or a table and bits for my router?


Planer access is good, particularly if none of the boards are surfaced yet.

You don't *have* to have a jig to edge a board. Yeah, it's primitive, but a good eye and a chalk line did me pretty well. What I couldn't get on the initial pass I got on the jointer.

The more you describe what you want to do, I really don't see how you can get on without a table saw, but this is just my (somewhat uninformed) opinion.


As far as installation goes, I have a Paslode cordless finish nailer, and I can probably borrow an old Makita 10" miter saw (not CMS). Can't I just make a jig to hold the crown molding upright and not need the compound action?

I didn't use a jig, but I did use geometry and multiple axes on the RAS. For stuff (particularly crown mould) that I knew was going to be a pain, I made sure that I had a squared edge on the board before milling, then used it as a reference in the (manual) mitre-saw.

I don't know much about Paslode stuff; I bought a Stanley finish nailer (air). If you're shooting thru oak, whatever you have had better have some giddyup.


As far as the flooring goes, there is only one (100 sq ft) room that I am definitely planning to do, and I have about 150 sq ft of rough milled honey locust, and another huge log to have sawed if I find another room that could use some sprucing up.

My gut says you're going to be close to the edge on raw vs. usable. (My head has no knowledge, on the other hand.) :rolleyes: I would avoid using that other "huge log" like the plague unless you're prepared to get it sawed NOW and get it somewhere that it can dry out for an extended period of time. I don't claim to know all the ins & outs, but I'd think you'd have moisture issues with it. The red oak I used was kiln dried and left to acclimate in the new house for 2 weeks before I ever fooled with it, and it still wanted to move a little.

A general comment on equipment acquisition and putting up a house...

When I started building, I was absolutely dead set on low-balling as much as I could, and counted every penny for several months. I came to a point in time where I decided that it just wasn't worth nickel-and-diming myself to death. (I've heard the same thing from other guys, too.)

I don't know how much you intend to drop on the house, but my guess is the cost of a few essential tools will be speck on the canvas in the long run. Yeah, $2K for a few tools sounds like a lot now, but how does that compare to the overall cost of the house? Can you bury tool expense in the mix as part of your construction loan expenditure? And how much money does a $2K investment save you (when compared to buying finished goods)?

I didn't grab the aforementioned TS/jointer/piecey-parts until I was close to a year into the project, opting instead to just muddle along with what I had (some nice small tools and that old RAS). Had I just bit the bullet and done it up front, I would have saved a lot of time futzing and screwing around using the wrong tool for the job (and a hundred bucks or so replacing the window that got a board shot thru it when the rip attempt on the RAS bound up).

Maybe more than you wanted to know; apologies for the length,


b

[Nathan Hoffman]

I do have an opportunity to spend some money on tools as part of the loan, but as you say, I'm kinda trying to nickle and dime it. I'm saving about $5k by not having someone else do the trim, so spending $2k is reasonable. So how good of tools (table saw, CMS, router table, jointer) can I get for $2k?

[Rob Russell]

I do have an opportunity to spend some money on tools as part of the loan, but as you say, I'm kinda trying to nickle and dime it. I'm saving about $5k by not having someone else do the trim, so spending $2k is reasonable. So how good of tools (table saw, CMS, router table, jointer) can I get for $2k?

Nathan,

I'd really sugget you think about a used, quality-name, combo machine like a Felder or MiniMax if you can find one. You'll get capabilities that the single machines don't provide. Specific examples are a slidnig tablesaw/shaper and a jointer that's as wide as your planer. Wanna put a straight edge on a board? Clamp it to the table of a sliding table saw and cut the straight edge. One pass across the jointer for cleanup and you're done. Have a 9" board to face joint, a 20" planer but only an 8" jpointer? The combo J/P gives you whatever width for both operations.

I'll admit that I've spent a big pile of $ on the machinery I have (top-grade semi-combo equipment). For $4000, you may be able to find a decent machine and have some money left over for tooling and a power feeder. You also need to think about dust collection, both from practical working and health perspectives.

Just some more things to consider.

Rob

[Brad Schafer]

I do have an opportunity to spend some money on tools as part of the loan, but as you say, I'm kinda trying to nickle and dime it. I'm saving about $5k by not having someone else do the trim, so spending $2k is reasonable. So how good of tools (table saw, CMS, router table, jointer) can I get for $2k?

Rob may have a good point - and I'm not really qualified to comment on your question (have probably gone way OB in the first place) ...

However, let me re-emphasize: mightily resist the urge to nickle/dime. I'm not suggesting throwing caution to the wind, but there's a saying about the bitterness of poor quality lingering long after the sweetness of low price is gone. What you get should probably be based on an honest assessment of your skill level and projected post-house use.

Trust me - in 5 years, you'll forget about having spent $3500 on tools instead of $2k ... but you'll see a screwed up corner joint or a floor finish fart every time you walk by ... and hate it.

Dunno where you live, but General Industrial Supply (Nashville) has been known to put together good deals for Creek-dwellers. Ken Salisbury (one of our friendly mods) would have details.

Good luck,


b

[Nathan Hoffman]

Thanks for the input! What about a good tablesaw with a router attachement on one wing and a good miter guage setup to hand most all of what I need?

[Ken Salisbury]

Dunno where you live, but General Industrial Supply (Nashville) has been known to put together good deals for Creek-dwellers. Ken Salisbury (one of our friendly mods) would have details.


Nathan - GIS has some stuff presently on sale you might be interested in. See the following thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?threadid=3524

I sent you a Private message with more GIS information as you requested.