Jointer adjustments, continuing story...

[Al Willits]

Ok, finally got some time to run the York 8" jointer (remembering the advice to try it and see how it works) and I'm not overjoyed.

After cycling a 2x4 though a few times I started to see some out of squareness.

Watched the "how to adjust your jointer" video again and headed back to the garage...er...shop.

Got the dial indicator out and just checking the cutter head I find its 3 thou off from front to back on the out table and 5.5 thou off front to back on the in table....hummmmm

Its high on the same sides of each table, so possibly a 3 thou shim under the rear bearing would bring it even on the out table, but what do I do with the other 2.5 thou on the in/feed table?
Can the table be shimed ?

It has gib adjustments, but isn't that for adjusting parallel with the other table??

Becoming a bit disapointed with a unit that says its adjusted at the factory....

Al

[Jeff Horton]

I am sure other will pipe in and have more experience than me with this. But I was mechanical designer for years, designed a lot of machinery and gages. While perfection would be nice .005 is in real terms a pretty darn small amount. On most things we did our tolerances were +/- .005. And we're are talking metal working/machine shop tolerances not woodworking. Heck moisture will make wood move that much and a lot more probably.

If you have a visible out of square condition there is something else going on I think. No way can you see .005 with the naked eye. I think don't think what your describing, if I an understanding you correctly, is going to cause a visible out of square condition. .005 high over 8" is 0.04297182 degrees. Don't think we can see that. Thats plenty close for woodworking standards.

If it were my machine I would leave it alone and I would keep looking to find out where my problem is. If you run a piece of wood through over and over it should just smaller and not more out of square unless the fence or the part is not staying flush each time.

Maybe I misreading what your tryin to say but something doesn't add up.

[Jim DeLaney]

...I find its 3 thou off from front to back on the out table and 5.5 thou off front to back on the in table...


So it's 0.0055 out of parallel across its 8" width - right?

So, if you edge joint a 2 X 4 (actual edge thickness = 1.5", you're only using 18.75% of the blade's width, so the 2 X 4 is only 0.00103" out of square.

For me, that's certainly acceptable.

In fact, unless you're using a precision (certified) machinist's square to check it, I doubt you'd even be able to tell it's off.

That 2 X 4 will move as much as 0.125" with just humidity changes. I sure wouldn't worry about 0.001 - or even 0.0055, for that matter.

If you do shim the bearing, that'll bring the error down even more - to about four tenths (0.0004'). Now, to correct beyond that you're getting into the realm of anality...

[Allen Bookout]

Al,

I think that I remember you getting a regular cutter head with blades. If that is the case the following may apply.

If the fence is for sure square to the outfeed table it sounds to me like that your blades are not adjusted precisely level with the outfeed table. After reading your post again I see that you have checked the head to the outfeed table but did you check the blades? That is the really important measurement. The proper thing to do is adjust your tables and then adjust the blades to the outfeed table. Your tables may be good enough for you to get good results by just adjusting your blades parallel to the outfeed table and not try to get the tables any closer. If it doesn't work then go the full route.

I am assuning that you are saying that your 2x4 is out of square around the width and thickness and not talking about a taper running the length of the board. It seems to me that it has to be either the fence not adjusted properly or the blades out of adjustment. Did you check all of the blades? Only one out (a little high on one end) will cause the problem.

If you have to shim your tables in the end, shim the outfeed table to align it with the infeed table since you very seldom need to move the outfeed table and then adjust your blades to the outfeed table. The tables and blades may not be exactly parallel with the head but that is not really a problem as long it is within reason.

I have been through table alignment problems with a dovetail way jointer that I had in the past. I do not know how good the video is that you have but if you really get exasperated and it does not have the information that you need there is a good video with the title "Tuning-up a Jointer" with John White from Fine WoodWorking by The Taunton Press. A Google search will turn it up. I think maybe Woodcraft has it also.

In any case, I will be watching and pulling for you. Good Luck!

Allen

[David Rose]

Al, it sounds like your fence is out of adjustment by .003". That is, out of square to the table. I may be reading this wrong. But if I am right, then you will be .0025 off to one table if the fence is adusted to "0" to the other table. That would cut over 1/2 your error.

The place to start (IMO) is squaring the tables to each other, if it is simple. It sounds like you might already be close enough. Then set the knives square to the table. I would probably pick the infeed if there is still a little difference. Lastly set the fence sqare to the table. Again, I would go to the infeed. After that see where you are.

I could be wrong :eek: on which table to set knives and fence to. You will start on that table but end on outfeed/fence. Normally if the fence is flat/square and you hold to that, it should stay square to the infeed... I think...

David


Ok, finally got some time to run the York 8" jointer (remembering the advice to try it and see how it works) and I'm not overjoyed.

After cycling a 2x4 though a few times I started to see some out of squareness.

Watched the "how to adjust your jointer" video again and headed back to the garage...er...shop.

Got the dial indicator out and just checking the cutter head I find its 3 thou off from front to back on the out table and 5.5 thou off front to back on the in table....hummmmm

Its high on the same sides of each table, so possibly a 3 thou shim under the rear bearing would bring it even on the out table, but what do I do with the other 2.5 thou on the in/feed table?
Can the table be shimed ?

It has gib adjustments, but isn't that for adjusting parallel with the other table??

Becoming a bit disapointed with a unit that says its adjusted at the factory....

Al

[Allen Bookout]

Al,

Did you get the standard 4 knife cutter head or the Byrd "Shelix" cutter head? With the Shelix head could be a whole different story.

Allen

[Al Willits]

"""""""""""
Maybe I misreading what your tryin to say but something doesn't add up.
"""""""""""

You hit the nail right on the head...
Having become a bit fustrated I quit trying to figure out what's wrong and waited till this morning to go look again, I'm not always as patient as I should be and have learnt a night sleep does wonders....and it did. :)

I was getting an out of square board after running it though the planer several times, then the jointer, I may have more than one problem here.

Wondering why some of the measurements didn't always seen correct I took a closer look at the magnetic dial indicator holder and found where the rods go into the fine adjustment assembly they would move, thus giving me multiple readings..

Not having the time to correct, I just removed half the fine adjustment section and went from there.
Numbers are far more correcthan before, I'm finding that at the infeed table the cutter head is .0005 low on the back side and the outfeed is high at the front part of the cutter head by .0015.

I'm having the feeling this is close enough.

The tables are off .002 from each other front to back and I'm not sure if I should worry about that or not, if the out table comes off easily, it'd be fairly easy to shim it, I'd think.....

Also I have not set the blades on either the jointer or planer, after the last disaster I went though on the planer, it was suggested I run a board though them and see what happens.

Which is where I'm at now.

Still a bit disapointed at the factory settings, but maybe I'm being to picky.

Once again, the newbie says thanks to all..

Al who thinks learning curves can be steep at times...

[Kent Fitzgerald]

I was getting an out of square board after running it though the planer several times, then the jointer,

Al, I think if you joint first and then go through the planer (jointed face down), all your problems will disappear.

[Al Willits]

Thanks Kent, I'm figuring most errors on my boards are operator error, getting a bit of snipe at times too, and I think I'm letting the board sag as it comes out the planer, thinking when I do longer boards I might use a couple of roller stands.

I can see running something like a 2x4 though the jointer, then running the jointed side down though the plainer,, but how about when running boards that are wider than the planer can go high?
I thought someone said to run them though the plainer first?

Me thinks a book on squaring boards and the different methods for the beginner would get at least one sale...:)

Al

[tod evans]

Thanks Kent, I'm figuring most errors on my boards are operator error, getting a bit of snipe at times too, and I think I'm letting the board sag as it comes out the planer, thinking when I do longer boards I might use a couple of roller stands.

I can see running something like a 2x4 though the jointer, then running the jointed side down though the plainer,, but how about when running boards that are wider than the planer can go high?
I thought someone said to run them though the plainer first?

Me thinks a book on squaring boards and the different methods for the beginner would get at least one sale...:)

Al

al, snipe is something we all deal with when using a planer to some extent. as far as paralleling a board you`ve jointed the edge on,"to tall for the planer" use the tablesaw....02 tod

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks Kent, I'm figuring most errors on my boards are operator error, getting a bit of snipe at times too, and I think I'm letting the board sag as it comes out the planer, thinking when I do longer boards I might use a couple of roller stands.

I can see running something like a 2x4 though the jointer, then running the jointed side down though the plainer,, but how about when running boards that are wider than the planer can go high?
I thought someone said to run them though the plainer first?

Me thinks a book on squaring boards and the different methods for the beginner would get at least one sale...:)

Al


Al.

I don't understand this statment.

"but how about when running boards that are wider than the planer can go high?"

Typically, this is the sequence I follow for milling boards. Face joint one side. Edge joint edge with the newly joined face against the fence. Plane the opposing face on a planer. Run the board through the TS with the joined edge against the rip fence.
You should end up with a board that is uniform in thickness and parallel along both sides.

One more source of problem is if you are using a "2x4". If this is a construction 2x4. You may never get it perfect. The board is green, or not kiln dried, and the material will literally be relieveing stress as you are milling it. The growth rings are too wide, and are of too small a radius in the 2x4's I've been using.(I've been milling some "Kiln Dried" lumber the last day or so also.)
If you are using a 2x4, I would stop and start using something different, maybe some poplar, or maple.

Just a few thoughts.

[Al Willits]

Maybe this will help.

It was suggested to run a board though the jointer first, then filp it so the jointed edge was down and run it then though the planer, makes sense as then the both sides that are milled should be paralell....right??

My problem with that is, what if the board is taller than the maximum opening of the planer, that's what I meant by
"but how about when running boards that are wider than the planer can go high?"
Please excuse my lacking of proper terms, its the newbie in me..:)

Also the jointer has the standard cutters, but I think with finding my dial indicator holder malfuntioning, I may have solved a few of the major problems I'm having.

I think with Mike's suggestion on facing boards it will go better also.

I will try and set the blades on both the jointer and planer this weekend, hopefully things will go better, I'll let ya know..

Al you all are saving my sanity, very greatful to ya all..

[Kent Fitzgerald]

It was suggested to run a board though the jointer first, then filp it so the jointed edge was down and run it then though the planer, makes sense as then the both sides that are milled should be paralell....right??

Al, my suggestion was in reference to face jointing, not edge jointing. Mike's sequence of steps is correct.

[Al Willits]

Sorry Kent, got face and edge mixed up....:)

I'm wondering then, if one had a 2x4 sized piece and it was out of square, running it though the jointer turning it a quarter turn each time will, or will not, end up with a squared piece??

Al .. who see's a loooong learning curve ahead

[tod evans]

Sorry Kent, got face and edge mixed up....:)

I'm wondering then, if one had a 2x4 sized piece and it was out of square, running it though the jointer turning it a quarter turn each time will, or will not, end up with a squared piece??

Al .. who see's a loooong learning curve ahead

al, unless you`re darn lucky you`ll just end up with a square cornered parallelogram. that`s the logic behind using the planer to parallel the face and the saw to parallel the edge.....02 tod

[Kent Fitzgerald]

I'm wondering then, if one had a 2x4 sized piece and it was out of square, running it though the jointer turning it a quarter turn each time will, or will not, end up with a squared piece??


Probably not. You'll wind up with flat, but non-parallel, faces. The edge of a 2x4 is too narrow to register against the jointer fence and produce an accurate 90 degree angle.

As a safey tip, use push blocks on the jointer, especially with narrow stock.

[Al Willits]

Probably not. You'll wind up with flat, but non-parallel, faces. The edge of a 2x4 is too narrow to register against the jointer fence and produce an accurate 90 degree angle.

As a safety tip, use push blocks on the jointer, especially with narrow stock.


Well then somethings going right then, after running the odd sized 2x4 though several revolutions, I ended up with a odd shaped 2x4.....only smaller...:)

Appreciate the safety tip, these things are much more dangerous than the lathes and vertical mills I've played on, and they can bite pretty bad too.

Al

[Jeff Horton]

Numbers are far more correcthan before, I'm finding that at the infeed table the cutter head is .0005 low on the back side and the outfeed is high at the front part of the cutter head by .0015.

I'm having the feeling this is close enough.

The tables are off .002 from each other front to back and I'm not sure if I should worry about that or not,

My gosh man, that is DANGED close ! In my book those measurements are perfect! Obviously you don't have a machinist background or your would be more than happy with reading like that. Sure it would be nice to be within .001 but most machine shop machines aren't much closer to perfect that that. I mean your talking dimensions smaller than the average human hair.

Yes it's close enough. ;)

[Al Willits]

My gosh man, that is DANGED close ! In my book those measurements are perfect! Obviously you don't have a machinist background or your would be more than happy with reading like that. Sure it would be nice to be within .001 but most machine shop machines aren't much closer to perfect that that. I mean your talking dimensions smaller than the average human hair.

Yes it's close enough. ;)

If you mean do I have formal schooling on machining, yes I have some, but most of my trainning was done by my father in law who worked in the model room for a major manufactur (Rosemont Engineering) and to him a few thou was sloppy.
I also did a fair amount of machining for the drag bike motors I built, including the tubrochargers that went on them, thus my quest for "close" tolerances.

The two main tools I used were a Bridgeport Vertial mill and a Harding tool room lathe and both would obtain accuracy to a thou easily.

But you are correct I am not a machinist by trade, but if just adding a .002 shim to the outfeed table to make it + or - less than a thou, I don't see that as being to picky...well..maybe..but if you can get it correct, why not?

Also the video that was posted on this forum on jointer/planer set, up has the blades adjusted to a thousanth, so I'm not so sure I'm to far off going for the set up numbers I am.
Overkill? You may be right, but its only my time and I feel its worth it to me.

But I know what you and others are saying about its only wood and the wood itself with expand and contrat with temps and humidity more than the numbers I'm looking for, and once again that ya all for your help.

But I'll know the darn table will be off and it'll drive me crazy, especially with the cure being doable.
If I had to send the unit back or drag it off to a machine shop, no I'd just live with and probably not ever see any problems.

Al

[Al Willits]

Well...after discovering nobody in the general auto parts world either has or heard of shim stock for bearings/etc I will probably have to order some.
Jointer tables are gonna stay at .003 off, front to back for now, chances are whatever wood I run will never know the difference... :)

I did then spend some time and set the blades, they were off .005 from each other and after a bit, I got a adjusting method that works fairly well and all blades are within a thou, hopefully next time will take a bit less than three hours though..:)
Gotta thank whoever posted that video site for jointer/planer set up, really helped.

Was gonna head to menards and pick up some B/C plywood for garage cabinets but the rain may postpone that...gotta buy a topper for that truck..
But I'm gonna take some of the junk would I have and practice making it square, then start making cabinets with it.

I may tackle the planer later but not sure if I'm ready for it...

Al

[Allen Bookout]

Al,

Some really good hardware stores have shim material. If you cannot find it there, Lee Valley has it. You can even buy a small assortment of different thicknesses. It is called the "Brass Sampler".

Here is the page: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=40946&cat=1,43456,43407

Allen

[Al Willits]

Hadn't thought of a hardware store, thanks I'll check lee valley too, Mr Vaughan video shows using shims to raise and lower the rollers depending on whether your planing rough or smooth wood, so maybe a variety pack might be the way to go..thanks Al.

Did get up enough nerve to tackle the planer today, got to the blade set up portion and not having a lot of luck making the holder for the dial indicator, may just order one.

Slowly but surely making progress, hope springs eternal..:)

Al