Dovetail saw help needed

[Nick Clayton]

I'm taking a class in September on hand cutting dovetails and need to purchase a saw for class. I've done a bit of research and have come to the conclusion that I need your expert/experienced advice. Having never cut a dovetail by hand and not knowing how much of it I am going to be doing (depends on how I enjoy the class I suppose) I'd rather not spend a small fortune on a dovetail saw. On the other hand I hate having tools that do not perform; I think a good example for reference is that I'm perfectly happy with my Irwin/Marples chisels.

So I've found a saw made in Sweden by Paragon that is sold by Garrett Wade that has similar geometry to the Adria and Lie-Nielsen saws and costs a mere $50 instead of $130. I've looked at the Pax/Lynx and Spear & Jackson saws, but the kerfs are over 50% wider than the previously mentioned saw (from what little I understand of cutting dovetails this is not good) and again at $100 cost considerably more than the Paragon.

I guess my question is has anyone had or heard of anyone with experience, good or bad, with the Paragon saw? If not could you give a beginner some tutelage in the art of buying a dovetail saw?

Cheers,
Nick

[Mark Singer]

Nick at $113 , I like the lie Neilsen dovetail saw...I have been using it and for a Western saw....it is very good...The Adria is also highly rated...I have some great old ones...problem is they need to be straight and sharpened correctly, if they are tweaked no good!

[Mike Weaver]

Nick at $113 , I like the lie Neilsen dovetail saw...I have been using it and for a Western saw....it is very good...The Adria is also highly rated...I have some great old ones...problem is they need to be straight and sharpened correctly, if they are tweaked no good!

Nick,
I agree with Mark - I have the predecesor to the LN DT Saw (when it was Independance Tools) and it's great.

I haven't used the Adria, but I've only heard great things about it.

This might help too:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37127&highlight=dovetail

Hope that helps,
-Mike

[Hank Knight]

Nick,

Many saws don't perform well "off the rack" because they are poorly sharpened by the manufacturer, particularly the inexpensive ones. Unless a saw is bent or has some other structural defect, most, including the inexpensive ones will improve dramatically with a good sharpening. I've never used the Paragon you mention, but I've seen them in the Garrett Wade catalog. It looks like a pretty good saw. My recommendation is to buy it and try it. If you can't get it to hold a line after some practice, find a good saw sharpener and get it sharpened and set properly (you can learn to sharpen it yourself later). For dovetail use, you want it sharpened for a rip cut with a minimal set. My guess is that you will be happy with it.

Hank

[Harold Beck]

Nick,

I have a LN Gents saw that I just love. That said a lot of folks don't like the Gent's style (straight handle) and the thinness of the blade. If I was taking a class in dovetails and didn't want to spend $100+ on a saw for the class I would probably look at an inexpensive Japanese style saw (cuts on pull stroke). There are several inexpensive ones that may say cut very well.

Enjoy the class. A class on hand cut dovetails and mortices is where I got hooked.

HB

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Nick, I have found no real difference in operation between an expensive dovetail saw such as LN or Adria and a cheaper alternative such as the Paragon you mention AFTER the cheaper saw is sharpened properly. Unless you have the skill to sharpen it or the time to send it to a professional, you'll be better served and have more fun in your class with the LN or similar saw. LN and Adria saws are finished better and look and feel nicer than their cheaper cousins which is as important to me as the way they perform.

Also be advised that there are different ways to sharpen a saw and there can be dramatic difference in the way one cuts. Generally speaking, an aggressive saw will be harder to start in the kerf than a slower cutting saw.

[Michael Cody]

I turn mostly, but cut a few dovetails now and then, don't discount the Lee Valley saws... I have the first one (no guide just the saw), works very well and I've heard good things from others about the second one. I also used the LN saw in a class from Frank Klausz and it was superb. You can't miss with Lee Valley service either and they carry the same western style saws that you find in Garret Wade catalog.

Dovetail saw (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41718&cat=1,42884)

Dozukime (Japanese Dovetail) (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32929&cat=1,42884)

[Robert Rozaieski]

Nick, I have both the Paragon dovetail saw and tenon saw (larger version). They both come filed crosscut which is not ideal for dovetails. I already had a vintage Atkins backsaw filed crosscut so I had both Paragon saws re-filed rip and given minimal set similar to that on the LN and Adria saws. They both cut excelent now. The dovetail saw I use for dovetails (duh!) and the larger rip saw I use for cutting tenon cheeks. The only thing I don't like about them is that the handle is a little beefy but I'm going to change that with a little rasp and file work and customize both saw handles to fit my hand. Even with the re-filing and setting, both saws combined cost me about what a new LN dovetail saw costs. I definately recommend them but only if you have the factory teeth filed off and new ones filed in rip. I think I paid about $25 to have both saws done.

[Maurice Metzger]

Nick, I use a very inexpensive saw, a "Thick Kerf" push stroke (western) 18TPI Zona Razor Saw, model 35-380, that cost $8.50:

44423

I did touch it up with a file, but it worked OK before that. The manufacturer calls it a "Thick Kerf" saw to distinguish it from other model making saws, it's really not that thick, the kerf is .020".

Don't be intimidated by suggestions that you sharpen an inexpensive saw, for me it was just using a 4" XX slim file (I think) to clean up the factory edges.

Maurice

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

WHy not just try it and see how you do? Give it a few hours and you will be a dab hand.

The class may increase your learning curve by giving you a "technique" but you can learn all the technique by simply reading a bit then doing it.

Try these sites:
--http://home.nj.rr.com/afoust/dovetails.html--
--http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/DovetailDrawer17.html--
--http://www2.gol.com/users/nhavens/htmlfile/dt1-e.html--

[James Mittlefehldt]

My .02 worth. I have the Pax dopvetail saw that Lee Valley sell, I beleive it is $76. US, I bought it filed for a rip cut, and have used it for nearly a yaer and have not as yet touched it with a file. It is a good saw and the back is extremely stiff and gives a great deal of control. You can use it out of the box and it is more reeasonable than the LN.

Once you try it and find you like this sort of stuff, like there is any doubt, you may very well want to move up to say and Adria, LN, or dare I say it a Wenzloff.

I paid $99 dollars Canadian for the Pax and frankly after struggling with cheaper saws feel it is more than worth the extra expense.

[Alan DuBoff]

Wenzloff & Sons.

Nothing beats a handcrafted tool, custom made for you, esepcially at around the same price a LN or Adria sells for.

EDIT: here's a pair I use.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/adu/adu_0002.jpg

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Nick. The width of your kerf does not matter when you are cutting dovetails. What does matter [to make sawing easier] is that the saw does not have too much set. This allows the blade to wobble in it's own cut and makes it easy to veer off line. So check to see what the set is and not the kerf. I would recommend buying a inexpensive saw or even try to borrow one for the class. During the class see if you can try some other peoples saws and see what you like. Good luck. Peter

[Steve Wargo]

I'm partial to the LN saws, and have 4 of them, but I agree with others, and really wish I had a Wenzloff original. Good luck with the decision making process.

[Rob Millard]

Nick,

My first saw was a $9.95 Stanley, that I filed to a rip configuration and removed all the set. I now have a couple LN’s but I still use that Stanley quite often (today in fact). If you want to go the Stanley route, but aren't up to the sharpening, I'd be glad to sharpen it for you.

Rob Millard

[Bill Moser]

Nick -
I also have the LN dovetail. The handle feels right (I don't like the feel of
the newer handles like those of Paragon or Freud). Incidentally, I learned to
cut dovetails (as well as stock preparation) from Ian Kirby's book,
"The Complete Dovetail". If you feel like reading up a little before your class,
Mr. Kirby provides the most thorough discourse on the full range of dovetail joints I've seen. Judging from the pics in the book, he uses relatively
inexpensive tools (Marples chisels, maybe a newer Freud or Garlick saw?)

[Nick Clayton]

Many thanks to all of your suggestions and helpful wisdom to an aspiring woodworker; not to mention kind offerings of sharpening saws! I truly enjoy the candor and respect you apply to each others varied opinions. I think that LN is the way to go for out of the box performance and local availability; plus woodcraft is having a sale this weekend by me.

I am still apprehensive about purchasing such a pricey purpose-built saw with such little experience. I have an older Freud gents saw that I may bring to the sharpener to have "touched up". I just feel a bit uneasy about having a Bentley without knowing how to drive; though I supposed you grow into things.

[Hank Knight]

Good choice, Nick. You won't be disappointed. For years I thought hand cut dovetails were a myth. I'd been trying to cut them with an Tyzak back saw I inherited from my father. It had the factory teeth and a lot of set. I couldn't cut worth beans with it. Then I had the opportunity to try a new LN Independence dovetail saw, and it was an epiphany. It cut straight and fast and it hugged the line like nothing I'd ever seen before. It was truly an eye opener for me. If you start with a good saw, you'll have a much easier time learning dovetails.
Hank

[Jeff Horton]

I went a totally nother direction. I bought a old saw from someone that refurbs them. I bought a dovetail and rip cut back saws, both for about $60 (for both). I have just started using these and they work perfectly. His sharpening work is excellent and he is very reputable. If your interested just PM me and I can get your his contact info.

[Bob Smalser]

Good heavens. Seventy-five and a hundred dollar dovetail saws for a beginner? You'll go broke before you even finish your first project.

I have three dovetail saws I use, all old Disstons, in different lengths and teeth. None of them cost more than 25 dollars. I also have a couple 15-dollar European dovetail saws beneath my bench I used successfully for decades. Drop by and I'll give them to you after we rehab them together. I's no big deal, I already have a couple kids of members on various forums far from home and dropping by for help.

3000 miles too far? Then find somebody like me in your town, there are plenty of us in woodworking clubs and guilds. Or find Woodenboat magazine's builders forum and ask for help, as I know several builders in your neck of the woods who would gladly help you along in the right direction.

[harry strasil]

Shucks, I have had no formal training to cut dovetails, and I have used, a rip saw, a crosscut, several back saws, a rip frame saw, a bow saw, several different types of dovetail saws and even cut them without sawing just a chisel. When I first started I didn't even lay them out, just the depth with a marking gauge and then just freehand cut the angle to the right depth. Just don't use a pencil to lay them out, use a sharp knife. Cut so you have a little to pare off with a sharp chisel and the fit like a medium glove on a large hand. LOL

[richard gebhart]

Keep in mind that "thin kerf" is ill-defined, whose width is rarely noted by seller or manufacturers. "Thin kerfs" vary between (0.12) 0.15" to .25". Sometimes the thickness can be important: a big deal. The one Garret sells is 0.15"--perfect for my needs, and the saw's quality is top notch (as with most of Garrett Wade's stuff.



I'm taking a class in September on hand cutting dovetails and need to purchase a saw for class. I've done a bit of research and have come to the conclusion that I need your expert/experienced advice. Having never cut a dovetail by hand and not knowing how much of it I am going to be doing (depends on how I enjoy the class I suppose) I'd rather not spend a small fortune on a dovetail saw. On the other hand I hate having tools that do not perform; I think a good example for reference is that I'm perfectly happy with my Irwin/Marples chisels.

So I've found a saw made in Sweden by Paragon that is sold by Garrett Wade that has similar geometry to the Adria and Lie-Nielsen saws and costs a mere $50 instead of $130. I've looked at the Pax/Lynx and Spear & Jackson saws, but the kerfs are over 50% wider than the previously mentioned saw (from what little I understand of cutting dovetails this is not good) and again at $100 cost considerably more than the Paragon.

I guess my question is has anyone had or heard of anyone with experience, good or bad, with the Paragon saw? If not could you give a beginner some tutelage in the art of buying a dovetail saw?

Cheers,
Nick

[Frederick Skelly]

keep in mind that "thin kerf" is ill-defined, whose width is rarely noted by seller or manufacturers. "thin kerfs" vary between (0.12) 0.15" to .25". Sometimes the thickness can be important: A big deal. The one garret sells is 0.15"--perfect for my needs, and the saw's quality is top notch (as with most of garrett wade's stuff.

necrothread

[Jim Koepke]

necrothread

When first seeing this, it was surprising to see no comments of mine.

That is when the start date was noted, a year before my first visit here.

508807

Often referred to as "Zombie Threads."

508808

Don't feel bad, we have mostly all performed the resurrection rituals once or twice.

jtk

[Rick Dettinger]

The prices pretty much give the zombie thread away. I would like to be able to buy a LN dovetail saw today for $130. Beginners like myself can just use a hacksaw or a coping saw. We will be using our chisels more to pare to the lines, in any event. Experienced workers just pare a few thousands of compressed wood away, and bang the joints together. Easy, if you can do it! At least, they make it look that way.

73,
Rick

[steven c newman]

Depending on the thickness of the wood..either a Disston No. 4 , 14" , 9ppi backsaw (3/4" and up) or a Disston No. 68 for the thinner stuff I build...both done while sitting on a shop stool at the end of my bench.....hard on my back, nowadays, to stand there hunched over....and yes, I do use my chisels...seeings how I do NOT own a fret saw.
Cut on the waste side of the layout lines, leave as much line as you can...pare for fit..nothing hard about it...

[Thomas McCurnin]

First, the type of saw will not help you if your technique sucks. You can cut perfect dovetails with a used Stanley back saw, or screw them up with a $300 hand made saw. Focus on technique first.

I learned from the school where Paul Sellers taught, and consequently use his technique. Proper layout with a .5mm mechanical pencil. Leave the line. Focus on posture and make a few dozen practice cuts, like before playing a round of golf, going to the driving range to hit a few buckets of balls to get your technique down. Once you can cut straight, you're good to go. A sharp chisel also helps. I'd recommend watching his video and practicing at home before you go to the class. Also Rob Cossman has a couple good videos that teach good fundamentals, although he seems to make the subject more complicated than it needs to be, but I genuinely like the man.

Second, the saw is all about comfort for your hand. So getting one that fits your hand will improve technique. Bad Axe Saws out of San Diego makes a good product with three sizes of handles.

[mike stenson]

Bad Axe moved out of Superior, Wisconsin?

[Jim Koepke]

As Thomas wrote:
Second, the saw is all about comfort for your hand.

One of my often expressed thoughts on purchasing a tool is try to get a hands on feel for it if possible.

Most of my saws have had work done on the handles with rasps, files, gouges and sandpaper in order to make them more comfortable in my hand.

For one of my dovetail saws, a Ron Bonz kit was purchased that didn't come with a handle. For the feel in the hand it is my favorite for cutting dovetails. > https://sawmillcreek.org//showthread.php?249983

jtk

[steven c newman]

Plus...one can always sit down, while they work..
509803
And just relax..

[Jim Reffner]

Bad Axe moved out of Superior, Wisconsin?

Nope. Just checked the Bad Axe website.

[Eric Brown]

While a thinner blade is nice it is also more likely to get bent if you are inexperienced. Hint: Let the saw do the work and don't push down on it. For me and my small hands, I ended up cutting the handle on a Tools for Working Wood dovetail saw and took a 3/4" section out. Comfort is important. I would suggest buying an inexpensive saw and taking it to the class. Look at all the saws you can while there and take notes as to what you like or don't like about each. Then if needed buy a saw you will be happy with. I would also consider the saws recently released by Blue Spruce. They look very nice.

[David Carroll]

My first "nice dovetail saw" was (still is) a Tyzack-Turner closed handle dovetail saw. It was $45 bucks from a shop in Portland Maine. At the time the only other choice out there for well made dovetail saws (apart from the mass produced ones) were the Adria and the Independence saws which were just introduced. But as I recall they were even then more than $100.00 and so were way out of my price range. Since then (1980s) I have purchased several others. The LN, as well as a couple of antique saws. Which one do I grab? The sharp one!

I know the OP has long since made his decision, but for me, I really cannot tell much difference between saws as long as they're sharp and set up well. Maybe I'm not as sensitive to the finer points of saw geometry and how it affects cutting as other folks are. But I pretty readily adapt to the saw in my hand once I have made a cut or two. Even gents saws, which I like a lot.

However, my advice would be to buy the best saw you can afford and then learn to use it. It's like a lot of things, tennis racquets, violins, and even golf clubs. You can learn to play with lesser quality at the beginning, then move up to "professional" level equipment when you are experienced enough to discern the somewhat subtle differences between the differences in quality.

Of course, learning to sharpen saws is important, the best dull saw won't cut better than a cheap saw that is sharp.

DC

[Mike Allen1010]

My first "nice dovetail saw" was (still is) a Tyzack-Turner closed handle dovetail saw. It was $45 bucks from a shop in Portland Maine. At the time the only other choice out there for well made dovetail saws (apart from the mass produced ones) were the Adria and the Independence saws which were just introduced. But as I recall they were even then more than $100.00 and so were way out of my price range. Since then (1980s) I have purchased several others. The LN, as well as a couple of antique saws. Which one do I grab? The sharp one!

I know the OP has long since made his decision, but for me, I really cannot tell much difference between saws as long as they're sharp and set up well. Maybe I'm not as sensitive to the finer points of saw geometry and how it affects cutting as other folks are. But I pretty readily adapt to the saw in my hand once I have made a cut or two. Even gents saws, which I like a lot.

However, my advice would be to buy the best saw you can afford and then learn to use it. It's like a lot of things, tennis racquets, violins, and even golf clubs. You can learn to play with lesser quality at the beginning, then move up to "professional" level equipment when you are experienced enough to discern the somewhat subtle differences between the differences in quality.

Of course, learning to sharpen saws is important, the best dull saw won't cut better than a cheap saw that is sharp.

DC

+1 we’ll said on all fronts

[Todd Zucker]

This is the Neanderthal forum. I think any thread dating back to as far back as the 1750s should not be considered a necrothread. Just continuity and part of the knowledge base.

[Mike Brady]

The moral of this story is buy your saws from Lie-Nielsen, in 2006.

[mike stenson]

The moral of this story is buy your saws from Lie-Nielsen, in 2006.

You should have been here last week...


As always.

[Tom M King]

The single most important thing about a dovetail saw, or any other backsaw, is the sharpening. All mine are old ones that were bought before there was such a thing as these newer boutique saws, yet I have no doubt they will cut as good.

[Mike Allen1010]

I think the OP poses an interesting question in the overall context of how does one allocate their $ in building a hand tool woodworking kit. Even though this is well trod ground, I can help adding my two cents. For perspective, I started with Japanese pull saws in the 70s and I've owned Western dovetail saws from Wentzloff, Lee Nielsen, Bad Axe, many vintage saws and have sharpened/restored hundreds of saws over the years. Currently I use about a dozen shop made joinery/back saws I made myself. I know that's a lot, many would say too many but I'd like to think that all optimized for specific tasks. Couple thoughts:

* Cutting hand cutting joinery and dovetails in particular is one of the hallmarks of hand tool woodworking and so for me it's an area where I think it's good ROI to make an investment in a quality saw.

* Saw set up/configuration absolutely matters. Rip configuration is absolutely better than crosscut. My personal preference is 15° of rake (which is a little easier to start than 12° of rake typically seen in full-size handsaw's), I also like to add about 5° of fleam angle in case end grain isn't perfectly straight etc. Most importantly, as little set as you can get away with. As a previous poster said, too much set means you'll have a wide kerf that is more difficult to cut straight.

* For me, plate thickness is an important consideration. For example I love my Lee Nielsen .015" thick plate dovetail saw, but typically only use it in stock less than 4/4 thick. Thin plates heat up quickly in thicker stock – not saying you can't use it, but I prefer .020" or .025" thick plates for thicker stock/longer cuts like sawing tennon shoulders. Longer cuts/thicker stock also are easier with coarser pitch/fewer points per inch like 9-13 PPI. If speed/efficiency is important to you, plate thickness also matters because thinner plates cut more quickly – e.g. thinner kerf = less material removed.

* As one of our fellow Neanders tagline says, "sharp solves all matter problems". A sharp, well tuned saw (e.g. rake, fleam, slope angles and set appropriate for the thickness of saw plate), is priority one.

* Japanese pull saws are sharp, accurate, reasonably affordable, easy to handle and cut reasonably quickly. Only downside for me is I can't resharpen them and teeth are delicate and prone to break/bend if your technique isn't great. I bought some of these for high school shop class I teach and they lasted about a week before they were unusable – but that's pretty tough crowd. The mostly adult, college beginning woodworking class I teach, they lasted a little longer, but none made it through the semester unscathed.

* Given the variables described above, evaluating/deciding on dovetail saw that's right for you is an area where it's super helpful to be able to try out various options based on your skill level kind of stock you use etc. See if you can find a fellow woodworker in your area that can give you an opportunity to experiment.

Just my food for thought,, YMMV.

Cheers, Mike