Buckeye Burl HF

[Jim Ketron]

This is some beautiful wood and it has so many different looks and features that it was hard to capture all its beauty in just a few pictures I think I took over 15 pictures of this piece to pick a few out of the bunch that shows it off the best.
This piece is very light and only weighs a few oz has around 1/8 wall thickness. It measures 3 5/8" tall and 4 7/8" wide, wipe on gel poly for the finish and buffed on the Beall.
Critiques, suggestions, and opinions are appreciated and welcome!

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/Jim_k/Jim%20K%20Turnings/Buckeye3.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/Jim_k/Jim%20K%20Turnings/Buckeye2.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/Jim_k/Jim%20K%20Turnings/Buckeye.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/Jim_k/Jim%20K%20Turnings/Buckeye6.jpg

[Don Baer]

What is the to criticise. That is a real art form. I like it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Gorgeous Jim!....I suggest you send it to me. I can than eye it and get back to you with a critique.....:p You did well with a uniquely beautiful piece of wood!

[Travis Stinson]

WOW! That, my friends, is called a "KETRON!!!!!!!!":cool:

[Bernie Weishapl]

Jim that is beautiful. I like the wood and form. Nice job.

[Corey Hallagan]

Woah, that is a sweet piece! Very nice Jim as always!

Corey

[Andy Hoyt]

Hey! What's the deal? That thang has some dadgummit holes in it. Looks defective or something.


Oh! And it sure is nice, too.

[Barry Stratton]

WOW! That, my friends, is called a "KETRON!!!!!!!!":cool:

YEP!!!

Dang it Jim, I think my jaw broke hitting the keyboard.

That is spec-tac-u-lar.

WOW!!!

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

DROP DEAD GORGEOUS doesn't do it justice!!!

Bruce

[Tom Sherman]

A most excellent form, and the wood is Outstanding. You did very well with this piece Jim.

[Ernie Nyvall]

Absolutely beautisamousful.

[Mark Cothren]

That piece rawks, dude! :cool:

That is one of the best pieces - IMO - that you've done and posted. Excellent work with a challenging piece of wood!

[Dennis Peacock]

WOW! That, my friends, is called a "KETRON!!!!!!!!":cool:

You got THAT right!!!!!!!!!!! Beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool: :D :D

[Jim Ketron]

Thanks Men for the nice comments!

[Henry C. Gernhardt, III]

Jim, that piece is absolutely astounding. You've captured the figure in that wood wonderfully. The sudden dichotomy of the change in color reminds me somewhat of the lunar surface, in that one side (the side facing Earth) is pocked and marred, whereas the other is quite smooth.

Lovely work.

[Barbara Gill]

Jim, I am going out on a limb here. From my experience, I know that nothing is learned from "atta boy" responses. The photograph posted on the other forums did not adequately show the form of this hollowform to make a complete evaluation possible. The last picture you posted here does.

You are right about the wood and your basic form is a good start but I would like to make some suggestions based on sound critiques I have read and that have been given to my work.

The next time you turn this form, try having the shoulders slope a little more into a fair curve. Your widest part of this vase is about 2/3 up which is good. The curve going down to the base should be faired up with no flat spots. This will be made easier if the base is about 1/3 of the widest section. In the case of this hollowform, your base should have been about 1 5/8" in diameter. The collar should be thinner and follow the curve of the shoulders to avoid a clunky heavy look.

Try sketching the changes superimposed on a printout of this hollowform to see what the difference is.

[Keith Burns]

Jim, great job with a difficult piece of wood:) :) And, yes, it would look great in my "Ketron Collection"

[Mike Ramsey]

Great job Jim!! Another "Ketron" Hollow form is born!!

[Travis Stinson]

Very interesting observations Barbara. But, a question, if I may.
Why don't you ever post any of your work here? :confused:

[Barbara Gill]

Because this is not my forum of choice. I post where I can get the very best, educated and honest feedback. The only reason I made the observations here was as I said; the pictures posted on the other two forums were not good enough to really see the form.

[Jim Ketron]

Thanks for your opinion Barbara, I think this piece is far from Clunky and IMO that word is almost the same as junky and to me that is an insult to the piece and not a very professional critique and a better word could be used to describe what you or someone else is trying to describe.
As far as your critique, I fail to see any flat spots on this turning like you are describing, also I’m not fond of those really tall ogee shaped collars that some are turning I don’t think it would fit very well with this piece. I also looked at a few collars that some have done recently and if you take off the tall part of the ogee or the finial and it looks almost exactly like mine.
The part that you don’t see is the bottom, and where there is a big void that is almost ready to come through that part, and I didn’t want a void on the bottom so it would set up correctly I would have loved to taper it on down but was limited. As sometimes as you know you are limited by the piece of wood you are working with.
As far as the other places, if your not in the in crowed or a (Big Hat) it’s a waste of time to even post on some of the other forums because they don’t respond to the topics. There is as much fawning going on over on those sites as they are here if you are the right person because I have seen it and still see it. So I think that’s why most like it here on SMC when people are ready for critiques they will ask for them, this is a hobby to most as it is mine. I do strive to do the best job I can on all of my work and I take pride in what I do and my craftsmanship.
And for your last post are you saying that there are no worthy or qualified people on SMC to give a good honest critique of peoples work?

[Jim Ketron]

Here is a few more shots of this piece.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/Jim_k/Jim%20K%20Turnings/Buckeye4.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/Jim_k/Jim%20K%20Turnings/Buckeye5.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/Jim_k/Jim%20K%20Turnings/Buckeye7.jpg

[Mark Cothren]

The next time you turn this form, try having the shoulders slope a little more into a fair curve. Your widest part of this vase is about 2/3 up which is good. The curve going down to the base should be faired up with no flat spots. This will be made easier if the base is about 1/3 of the widest section. In the case of this hollowform, your base should have been about 1 5/8" in diameter. The collar should be thinner and follow the curve of the shoulders to avoid a clunky heavy look.


Because this is not my forum of choice. I post where I can get the very best, educated and honest feedback.

I'm still relatively new to turning and love to learn - especially from the "very best, educated" folks that post on the other forums. I sure wish some "very best, educated" folks would post on here with all the less than best, uneducated folks... :rolleyes:

Your critique/suggestion (that you have read from others) in my mind works okay as an opinion, but I hardly see the point in everybody doing their forms or collars all the same way/shape/form. Maybe I didn't get the "rule book" for turning...

I'd absolutely love to see some pictures/examples of what you're talking about. I can picture it in my mind, but a real picture would be great! Thanks in advance!

[Andy Hoyt]

.... I would like to make some suggestions based on sound critiques I have read and that have been given to my work.... Well, I for one would rather know what you think.

[Barbara Gill]

You are welcome Jim. I think if you go back and re-read what I wrote, I never called the piece clunky. I was talking about the collar. Junkie does rhyme with clunky but they hardly mean the same thing.

Also if you re-read what I wrote, I never suggested a tall ogee shaped collar. I have no idea where you got that ides.

True, I can't see the bottom. If there is a good reason not to narrow it down, fine. Just because I made the observation is no reason to get so defensive.

I am sure you do take pride in your workmanship. I went to your site and saw some nice work. That is why I am so surprised that my observations have upset you so much. You did ask for "Critiques, suggestions and opinions...".

[Barbara Gill]

You guys are a trip. Obviously this is a new experience, having someone actually try to say something constructive instead of "atta boy" comments that abound on this site. Your reaction is exactly why you are short on turners who are willing to actually spend some time offering constructive suggestions. Just go back and read how you respond over and over again.

Of course there is no rule book. But there are guidelines for balanced proportions. the Greeks established them a long time ago. They have stood the test of time. It takes a really outstanding turner to deviate from good balance and suceed. Certainly any turner has the right to turn any shape he or she wants to turn but they should not get their shorts in a knot when others may not see the same "beauty".

[Keith Burns]

Because this is not my forum of choice. I post where I can get the very best, educated and honest feedback. The only reason I made the observations here was as I said; the pictures posted on the other two forums were not good enough to really see the form.

Well Barbara, you sure know how to win friends and influance people. I guess we are not educated enough or good enough or honest enough to offer feedback on others work. Please post some of your work so we can all see it.

[Mark Cothren]

I just spent a little time readin' some of the "educated" replies on your esteemed forums. Looks like about the same type of replies there that you are talkin' down to on here. Guess if I was educated I could understand the difference...

Come on - post some of your work here so we can "atta boy" some of your work! Seriously... I'd love to see it.

[Joe Tonich]

Ya know.....I was stayin out'a this, but, you went below the belt on this....


Because this is not my forum of choice. I post where I can get the very best, educated and honest feedback.

Seems you don't hold people here with the highest regards.

In your earlier post you stated....

"You are right about the wood and your basic form is a good start but I would like to make some suggestions based on sound critiques I have read and that have been given to my work."

Sorry, but I went to your 'other site' and looked in your gallery. My opinion is you are critiqing with others observations, not your experienced own....

Please show us the turnings you are referring to, and the changes you made to improve them so we have some insight to what you are saying.

[Carole Valentine]

Well I just had to pop out of the woodwork on this one. I'll probably get banned or the post will get deleted by the post gestapo, but so be it.

Jim,

A quote from your post on another forum as well as this one: " Critiques, suggestions, and opinions are appreciated and welcome!"

I responded to your post on the other forum with the following:

"....If I were to change one thing it would be the collar. To me it looks a tad thick and clunky and tends to draw the eye from the beauty of the vessel. I would make it a bit smaller in diameter (if the size of the opening allows it), thin the edges and maybe give it a bit of an ogee shape. But again, that is just me....."

Rather than respond, you posted on another yet another forum with the word (Clunky?) in the heading.

Well, I am sorry if you take offense at my opinion, Jim. It's just that - my opinion. I am not a "Big Hat" or a Professional". You did not ask for "professional" opinions only. And I cannot for the life of me equate "clunky" with "junky" no matter how hard I try. Junky is your word, not mine. You asked for opinions, not "professional" opinions. If you don't want honest ones, don't ask. I still think the thickness and size of the collar detracts from this piece. And yes, I see what appear to be some flat spots too in this post, but that may be a lighting thing or a result of the voids. I don't know from a photo. The "bit of an ogee shape" (not a tall, towering collar!) is again my personal opinion. I don't know why you should get all bent out of shape when you ask for opinions and get them.

One (and only one) of the reasons I do not post on this forum anymore is the lack of constructive criticism. I can scroll through the posts and all I see is "great job", "Nice form", "Wow!", etc. no matter how good or bad the turning might be. No specifics. No suggestions for improvement. Only ego stroking. That does not help anyone. Barb has hit the nail on the head when she says "nothing is learned from "atta boy" responses." I have been blasted with everything from "the foot looks like it came straight out of the chuck" to "the big finial makes the piece top-heavy" to "the collar is klutzy". (Do you like klutzy better than clunky, Jim?) I didn't take offense...I learned from it. I am still, and will be forever, learning wherever and however I can.

[Jim Ketron]

Well the Head has appered!



Carole this collar is only 1/4 tall so I think clunky is a little of a harsh word to use to describe it. The edge is under 1/8 tall, I'm not fond of the Ogee shape on collars unless the piece has a large flat area leading up to the collar, so I decided not to use an Ogee shape on this one.
I looked in your album and I see several of your collars almost the same proportions as mine but much taller so I really don’t see exactly what you are referring too. I have never met someone who is so quick to parrot information that you’ve have just learned yourself!
So don’t take yourself too seriously!

[Don Baer]

Recently Mark Singer posted in the design forum about offering comments on critiques to posts and I found it very interesting. Mark was asking wether he should give an honest opinion.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=40699
Now personaly I like the piece as posted. Barbera offered some constructive critisism and the artist took offense. Now admittedly some of Barberas commets about folks on SMC creek beeing yes men were IMHO out of line the critique was not. While Jim may not have to accept the critiques as presented I feel that by posting the pix of his piece he is leaving himself open to the opinions of others.

Jim,
when you said
"Critiques, suggestions, and opinions are appreciated and welcome!"

You took off the gloves and opened yourself up to any critique that comes along. Like it or not.

[Carole Valentine]

Jim, as I have said over and over again, that is just MY OPINION. You asked for opinions. Why, I will never know. You seem to only want ones that agree with yours. If you like that style of collar, use it for heavens sake. It's your work. I think that style looks great on some of your other pieces. You can choose to accept or ignore other peoples opinions. But darn it, don't get so uptight when you ask what others think and you get a response that might not be exactly what you want to hear!
As for my album, there are some pretty awful pieces in there, and it's fun to go back and look at them and think "yuck!" and I will probably feel the same way a year from now about pieces I do today, but comparing your collars to mine simply on the basis of overall height is really not reasonable since they are different styles. I lean towards concave, you seem to lean towards convex. Again, in MY OPINION and in MY OPINION ONLY, a concave (ogee) collar can support more overall height (not edge thickness). Hmmm...wonder who I am parroting there? Could it be that it is simply MY OPINION??? My opinion, your opinion. That's what it boils down to doesn't it? And since it's your piece, and since I really don't care one way or the other, lets just both go back to our chosen hangouts. From now on, I will know that when you say "Critiques, suggestions, and opinions are appreciated and welcome!" you don't mean mine.

[Don Baer]

I will know that when you say "Critiques, suggestions, and opinions are appreciated and welcome!" you don't mean mine.

Carol,
I always look forward to your posts and realy like to see what you have to offer. please when folks ask for a critique feel free to give YOUR opinion we can all use some constructive criticism. Ii also would like to see more of your work as well as Babs work. As a matter of fact after looking at all 160 posts by babs I can't find 1 post where she has shown anything she has truned.

[Jim Ketron]

Carole did I say anything about your critique on WOW? No!
There was only 2 posts on there as usual because I’m not in the clique over there.
So I ask on WC and got a few more critiques. Is that wrong?
Seems to me you got upset by me asking there if it was clunky, you and your buddy was trying to stir up some trouble over here about that post so after feeling like I was being attacked I just gave my opinion on the matter. I can take a critique but what is just the opinion of one? I wanted more!

So what this boils down too is this 2 diff prides getting in the way
Defending my turning and you defending your critique!

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I think we need to spend some qualitly time in front of our lathes......... just my opinion, mind you .....

[Barbara Gill]

Don, I apologize if my answer seemed offensive. I never would have brought the subject up except Travis asked my why I didn't post here. It was a legitimate question that deserved an honest answer.

An "educated opinion" has nothing to do with a person's level of education. It has to do with their experience in the subject in question.

I think if you go back and look at the last 100 pictures of work where opinions were requested, you will find that dispite poor form, tearout, etc. the constructive comments are few and far between. The people who have the ability to help each of us become better turners are not steping up on this site. Do you wonder why? There was nothing in my originial post that was mean spirited or out of line yet look at the reactions. That in itself should be very revealing. Everyone is king and nobody wants to tell him he is not wearing cloths.

[Keith Burns]

An "educated opinion" has nothing to do with a person's level of education. It has to do with their experience in the subject in question.



You are exactly right Barbara, it has to do with the experience in the subject. After reviewing your album over there, it is obvious to me that you have no experience in the subject. When someone with knowledge and experience who is a much better turner than I am critiques my work, I accept it and learn from it. Even when someone with no experience says they don't like something I've done, thats fine, too. But for you to come here with the "goddess" holier than thou "I'm a professional" attitude you came with, it is just arrogant and wrong.

[Andy Hoyt]

You're right Barbara. Quite often pieces are shown here that warrant a critique for any number of reasons. Occasionally that critique is formally requested, but more often than not it's only implied or is somewhat vague. What makes all of Sawmill Creek such a terrific place is the degree of honor and respect accorded to all regardless of how long they've been a member; the frequency of their participation; or the quality of their work. This is something I consider absolutely fabulous; and more to the point, conspicuously absent in many other forums.

One also has to consider that the SMC Turning Forum is populated with folks of all skill levels. I believe that the beginning turner benefits immensely by simply hanging out with those who possess more talent. And those who already have the talent, skill, and experience enjoy the spiritual benefit from careful and insightful nurturing of the beginners. It really is a family.

What you don't see in these threads are comments that have the potential to embarass or belittle anyone. But guess what? The comments (harsh or cruel or potentially harmful as the may be) still get made - but it's done privately. And more often than not this results in an ongoing private dialog (and friendship) with lasting value to both parties.

Don Baer correctly referred you to a thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=40699)where the topic of how to post a constructive comment on a piece of work with dubious qualities is discussed. It should be required reading for all.

And with all this said, I would like to point out that participation in this forum without posting one's own work does tend to have problems with the establishment of credibility. Having a body of work on another forum doesn't cut the mustard (or the mayo for that matter). WOW is exclusive; WC is graphically challenged; and the rest of them just tend to raise one's blood pressure too much. The vast majority of the members here don't bother with these other forums.

Okay, I've said my piece - disjointed as it may be. I hope this helps. And yes; comments and a critique of this post are invited.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

................. And yes; comments and a critique of this post are invited.

Well then Andy, I just have to say that I hate you new Avatar, it has been bugging me for sometime, but I just did not know how to tell you............ ;) :D

[Chris Barton]

OK, so I think I know why we don't have any women posting here anymore...

[Chris Barton]

Also, I am having terrible problems with blank pages again and other technical issues. Hmmm...

[Mark Cothren]

Well, I’ve had some time to simmer down on this a bit… good sense tells me to just leave it alone and let it die, but I’m like Jethro Bodeen when Jed said about him, “If brains was lard that boy wouldn’t have enough to grease a skillet.”

I’ve also had some private online conversations with some of you and that gave me some perspective. I appreciate that.

There are a few things that happened that I wish would not have. But in the end I’ve learned some things – some I already knew, but had to relearn. Most of these deal directly with this thread, but some of them were just brought to mind as I pondered these things.

(1) It’s hard to communicate true sentiments, thoughts, and feelings online. It’s also too easy to misinterpret what someone is trying to say. Best practice (for me anyway) should be to always give the benefit of the doubt.
(2) Opinions are like armpits. Most everybody has one or two, and sometimes they stink – mine included. Just because someone’s opinion differs doesn’t make it right or wrong.
(3) You don’t score any points with the home team by talkin’ down to them – especially when you’re sittin’ around their campfire. It happened in this case – both ways. Poor form on both parts – guilty as charged, I am.
(4) Tough criticism is hard to take and we need to work on it. I am TERRIBLE at receiving negative – but constructive – feedback. Even when it’s given in a helpful way. That’s nothing but pride. Sometimes hard for me to swallow that big sucker. It’s something I need to continue to work on.
(5) “Attaboys” may not help make you a better turner, but they don’t necessarily make you worse, either. A little encouragement to someone who is trying their best doesn’t hurt, in my opinion (there’s that word again).
(6) If you post a piece and ask me for honest feedback, if I like it and don’t have any suggestions as to how you might make it better, then “Looks great to me!” is acceptable feedback.
(7) If you ask for feedback/suggestions/critiques/opinions/etc, then you better mean it because you’re likely to get it. And an opinion is just that – an opinion. A differing one doesn’t make it – or your’s – right or wrong.
(8) A word you choose as a descriptor – like “clunky” – may not mean the same thing to someone else as it does to you. Before I post next time I need to reread what I have typed and make sure the meaning is clear.
(9) We are all (at least that’s the way I feel) here to share and learn.

I’m not pointing my finger at anybody else. Well, okay, maybe I am. But when I point one at you I’m pointing four back at myself (whoever came up with that corny saying anyway?)…J

I’m just trying to say I’d like to apologize to everyone who has it coming from me. My momma didn’t raise me this way. My only excuse is the effect of the Moxie fumes still lingers. That and the summer heat is getting to me…

This is a great forum/community/group. We all still have stuff to learn. I hope everybody – I mean EVERYBODY – continues to participate here.

[Shelley Bolster]

The message is gone, so am I

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Atta-boy Mark :D

(sorry, I could not resist)

[Joseph Peacock]

THAT LOOKS VERY,VERY,VERY,VERY GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D ;) :cool:

[TYLER WOOD]

Ok, as a new turner I post my comments. I personally would have liked to see it without a collar. Maybe? I don't know the condition of the lip below, bet seeing the two colors fight at the top would have been splendid! I feel the colar does seem to be a bit heavy for the piece, maybe becayse of the charcoal colored wood and the black on top of it. I know you say the color is small, maybe dimensionally it is, but it looks heavy for the piece.

Again as stated I am new to turning and all have seen on this forum most of the work I have done, so take my critique for what it is worth.

Jim will you please PM me and tell me if I am off base. Or anyone for that matter. I am giong to try a hollow form, but am wanting to get tips and info from some of the EXPERT TURNERS here on SMC .

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Does anyone think that in the future it might help if this Sticky (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56171) was read and followed. We might then come closer to avoiding these type of things happening.:o I for one am saddened by all of this.:(

[TYLER WOOD]

actually I think most of this happened before the sstickey, just brought back to life by someone dredging up old threads.