Japanese vs Western Chisels

[Mark Miller]

Hi all,

I have been trying to understand all the intricacies & attributes of the japanese chisels over western but I still don't get it. Okay so they have a harder cutting edge by say 5 points on the rockwell C scale --that comes out to a 7% difference...thats it! Or is Rockwell on some kind of logrithmic scale?

Then the steel is of course laminated with a softer steel to "absorb the impact"? and keep it from chipping. Okay, this thing isn't a jack hammer so that doesn't make much since to me. Some users indicate it chips anyway, not everyone but enough to make me wonder why people are paying hundreds of dollars for a chisel that may or may not chip. I guess the maker is of paramount importance but the only info I can find on makers are what the catalogs that are selling it tell us.

Then they say the Japanese chisel needs to have a steeper angle of bevel than western counterparts because it is brittle and needs more steel behind the cutting edge (The Japan Woodworker told me that one).
Well, doesn't that make it harder to push and hammer thus making control harder? Maybe not so much on the bench work chisels but on the carving chisels it sure would. My carving R. Sorby and H. Taylor, etc carving chisels generally have a 15 degree bevel. Woodcarving is mainly isometrics with pushing and pulling to control the edge where minor differences can be magnified over an 8 hour period. It's not like bench work where you use it for a few minutes and set it down for half an hour. I asked the Japan Woodworker if their Professional Carving Chisels could be reground from their standard 25 degree bevel to a 15 degree without damaging them & I never got an answer to the email.

I read the reviews in Fine Woodworking comparing the hardness of these chisels but I was really disappointed there was not much mention of bevels or how that changes it's performance. Ultimately it seems we need the lowest bevel angle possible while still maintaining the integrety of the steel and edge for the purpose it is intended for.

Or balance? As a canoeing fanatic, I have made canoes and paddles & am acutely aware of how important balance is. Anyone who has ever paddled with a blade heavy paddle for a length of time probably knows what I mean. I have yet to see a review of chisels give any comparisons that are not totally subjective. Its a simple process to see where the balance point is. How much does it weigh compared to another? Never discussed-- but if one is 50% heavier than another it might of interest. At exactly what point does the steel chip? Know one seems to know.

So why does that seem to leave out Japanese chisels when I add up
the points? I'm really looking for a reason (on some level) to find Japanese chisels superior somehow but these questions keep bugging me. I don't get it.
:confused:
Mark

[tod evans]

mark, i`m really fond of german steel for edge tools, sharpens easily and holds an edge well.......never saw the need to fix what ain`t broke...02 tod

[edit] sorry mark! didn`t notice it`s your first post......welcome!

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Mark--welcome!

If one doesn't have chisels and wants a really good set of new chisels [as opposed to composing a set of vintage] I would say the typical Japanese chisels are as good as they get for the respective price points.

I'm not certain the RC scale is logrithmic or not. Maybe someone who actually knows can say. But that 7% is a decidedly big difference.

My perference in chisels is ones which take less time to hone and I can whack without thinking about chipping. It seems from many of the messages on chisels, some of the lower-end Japanese chisels can suffer from that attribute. I do like the balance and feel of them. But I have enough chisels.

Take care, Mike

[Dave Burnard]

[edit] Hey Mark, welcome to the forum!

Here's my 2 cents...

We can discuss this til the cows come home. And we have. Repeatedly. On this and many other forums. We have learned that there are lots of nice chisels in the world, and people who will swear by nearly every variation. Lots of good chisels, so life is good.

Trying to find the best chisels can easily turn into a grail quest. Without actually trying a few of the different types you can only theorize and compare testimonials, gripes, myths, and marketing hype.

Get a few positive recommendations and buy a few midrange chisels in the styles/steels/countriesOfOrigin/etc you're interested in. Really learn how to use and sharpen them - then you'll have something based on your own skills to go by. Enjoy.

===

As for me: I love my japanese chisels and know how to use them. I hit the hooped ones hard with a steel hammer as their makers intended, they don't chip unless I hit a nail or rock. I've never had to increase a bevel angle but have decreased it, never use a micro bevel or back bevel. I sharpen my chisels by hand on a mix of waterstones. I keep a few HSS chisels around for plywood and glue-lams. But that's just me... ;)

[tod evans]

[edit]
Get a few positive recommendations and buy a few midrange chisels in the styles/steels/countriesOfOrigin/etc you're interested in. Really learn how to use and sharpen them - then you'll have something based on your own skills to go by. Enjoy.

===

;)


dave, this is some of the best advice i`ve seen regarding chisels. thanks! tod

[Mike Wenzloff]

[edit] ...
Trying to find the best chisels can easily turn into a grail quest. Without actually trying a few of the different types you can only theorize and compare testimonials, gripes, myths, and marketing hype.
...
As for me: I love my japanese chisels and know how to use them. I hit the hooped ones hard with a steel hammer as their makers intended, they don't chip unless I hit a nail or rock. I've never had to increase a bevel angle but have decreased it, never use a micro bevel or back bevel. I sharpen my chisels by hand on a mix of waterstones. I keep a few HSS chisels around for plywood and glue-lams. But that's just me... ;)
Thanks, Dave. I didn't intend for my post to be a complaint about Japanese chisels--at least I don't read it thatta way and it certainly wasn't intended so.

I guess my point is the $9.99 Japanese set at HF isn't a good starting point, certainly neither is the $9.99 set of western ones. But even so, they [the inexpensive Japanese ones] are probably better. They do chip fairly easy whereas the inexpensive western one roll.

Dollar for dollar, the Japanese ones are a better buy until one gets high enough in dollars to make a decent comparison of western ones--because less than X-amount, western ones [other than vintage] are junk.

So if I had about $175 or less to spend on a new set, I would look hard at good Japanese ones. Above that the western ones are also worth considering.

The trade-off between harder steel and softer steel in decent chisels is only sharpening less or more often. Unless one purchases inferior chisels of any origin.

Take care, Mike

[Mark Singer]

I think you have been given some great advice by Dave and others. The Japanese chisels with hoops are not comfortable to use in the hand if not struck.... They hold an edge great and I have a few and use them. Most of my chisels are older socket chisels...It is nice to have a few stubbies...that are short. Get a few different kinds and see what you like. I have the new Lie Neilsen socket chisels and they are like the old Stanley 750's...good balance. A few paring chisels like older Swan or Witerby's or Stanley 720's are very nice and can be struck with a mallet as well

[Hank Knight]

Mark,

As others have said, there are strong advocates for Western chisels and there are strong advocates for Japanese chisels. If you search for the subject on this forum you will find lots of digital ink spent extolling the virtues of each and the differences between the two styles. It' s an interesting read and I encourage you wander through the discussions.

I have and use both styles; and, while I'm sure there are substantive differences between the two, they don't amount to much in my book. Both cut wool very well when they are properly sharpened, and I don't think it is any more difficult to put a fine edge on a Japanese chisel than a western one. The technique may vary a little, but sharpening them is basically a learned skill - and a necessary one.

Having said that, Japanese chisels and Western chisels are different - enough different that they feel different in the hand. Japanese chisels are generally lighter and seem somehow more delicate than Western chisels, but the delicacy is something of an illusion. Apart from the fact that Japanese chisels are designed to be hit with a steel hammer and Western ones with a wooden mallet, I think the differences are pretty subjective - they are for me,at least. I use my Western chisels for a while and then switch over to the Japanese ones, and then back, just for the change. I don't know that one style performs any better than the other, but I like the different feel. Try both. You may find that one style really suits you better than the other.Then again, you may not. I think, however that you're wasting your time trying to decide between the two on the basis of steel types, bevel angles, hoops or no-hoops and such. It's the feel that will be the difference for you in the end. So grab some of both and try them out - see which ones feel best to you.

My $.02

Hank

[Dave Burnard]

Mike - nope I didn't read it thatta way either. My advice was general in nature. I agree - don't buy cheap (new) chisels unless they are your "loaner" set. I guess the trouble comes when we try to figure out where to draw the line for cheap. ;)

I don't have problems using hooped Japanese chisels in my hand, but if I'm going to do a lot of paring I'll reach for a paring chisel. A hooped chisel is never going to be as comfortable as an unhooped chisel. But you can hit a hooped chisel much harder than you can hit an unhooped one. It's a trade-off. Where you fall probably depends on how much chopping vs pushing you do.

However, this does bring up the issue of setting the hoops properly on a japanese chisel. If not set up properly they can fall off which is annoying, or the hoop can become deformed from hammering which can lead to discomfort or even bloodshed. ;) I think some suppliers are offering to preset the hoops these days. It sounds crazy, living here in the west, but in Japan many good chisels don't even come pre-sharpened since the craftsman wlll want to set the bevel angle to suit what he's working on. Anyway setting the hoops is something to think about... There are several reasonable magazine articles and web articles to describe the process. It might seem daunting when you get a new set of chisels - but it's better to just do one or two at first and use them to see how good of a job you did before messing up/with all the others. ;)

Good advice from Hank!

[Mark Miller]

Hey, thanks guys for all the good feedback here! I didn't expect so much help so fast! I guess I should have mentioned that I have a set of R. Sorby mortise chisels & carving chisels and a set of Harris beveled chisels all of which I enjoy using. Plus I have collected antique tools for 25 years or so now so I've gotten to try a bunch of antique chisels of nearly every brand & I like most of those too. Is $25 chep when it comes to a Jap chisel or is $50? Seems like they are on a different cheap scale.

I reckon I am chasing the holy grail for the "perfect" chisel and become one with wood (as one teacher told me years ago), but to me that is as much fun as using them. I figured I was missing out on something from what I was hearing of Japanese chisels & I have just gotten one in the mail today so I will play around with it awhile & see what I can do with it. I'm encouraged to try a couple more and see for myself. For me, I'm still playing in the sand box--it's just the toys that have changed.:)

Is there anyone out there who has tried the Japanese gouges? I'd like to know if they had good experiences with them or not.

Thanks,
Mark

[Mark Singer]

An analogy I sometimes use on chisels is that of a pencil and paper...if you can design a home , you can sketch it with a cheap pencil on a paper bag...or napkin at lunch....and if you can't the best Mount Blanc pen and pencil set and the finest hand made paper will not help... Basically they are metal blades held in wooden or plastic handles...if well sharpened you can make wondrful joints with any of them...Of course we have preferences and that comes from trying and finding out what works...Mark, it sounds like you have and I encourage you to try different ones rather than buying a set until yo find a favorite...I always take a few to the bench...and pick one that suits a particular task, I am lazy and will often just pick whatever is close to me....it still works ok

[Carl Crout]

Buy some good German chisels and be happy - Two Cherries, Hirsh or MGH.
I have the MGH and they are nice.

[Dave Burnard]

For a japanese chisel these days, $25 is on the cheap side. Maybe I have expensive tastes, but I think $50 is a good place to start.

My working set are Fujihiro's which are very reliable, they are sold by Hida Tool and Misugi Designs. I've been using them for about 10 years now. They are hand made by Chutaro Imai in the one-person shop attached to his house. Misugi also sells a fancier version of his chisels but you'll pay more for all the extra handwork involved. I was able to see him work and ask a few questions when I was in Japan in May. He's very good at what he does, and was very helpful in explaining some of the finer points of chisel making.

There are much more expensive chisels out there with more exotic steels or fancy etching, etc. The Fujihiro is my point of reference for what a chisel should be capable of. Same should apply to other similarly priced chisels from dealers who specialize in Japanese tools, but I don't have experience with the others. Check around with other users...

[Bill Moser]

I also have a set of Fujihiros (from Hida). They're great chisels, at about
$50 apiece. And some Barr's, and some LN's, and Witherbys, and some more
Japanese paring chisels, and mortise chisels, dovetails... Basically, I love
chisels -- they're my favorite tools to work with! Once you get to a certain
level of quality, both eastern and western chisels have something interesting
offer. I haven't mapped it all out in my own mind, but I sure like to have a
whole bunch of chisels around with different bevel angles, hardnesses, handle
lengths, widths, etc. There's definitely a greater range of chisel choices
from Japanese manufacturers these days (want a $5000 chisel? I think
Misgui Designs can cover that for you) . I really like the LN socket chisels,
and would like to see them extend the widths to > 3/4", and while Im at
it, I'd like to see some "cabinet length" chisels (i.e overall length about 12")
from LN.
Bill

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I just want to point out that a lot of the "Cheap" Japanese Chisels are NOT made in Japan, and they only "Look" like Japanese chisels.

I have both and find both do the job they were made for.

Cheers!

[Bob Smalser]

Hi all,

I read the reviews in Fine Woodworking comparing the hardness of these chisels but I was really disappointed there was not much mention of bevels or how that changes it's performance.

You might look up "All About Chisels in FWW #181:


Why are bevel angles different?

So the cutting edge lasts longer in use – it’s a compromise. The finer the cutting edge, the finer and faster the cut, and the bevel chosen for specific chisels is based on the tasks they are to perform and the ability of the steel used to hold its edge under those conditions. Paring chisels are ground with shallow bevels, 15 to 20 degrees, for delicate use. Use a mallet on them, and you’ll break down that fine edge quickly and be forced to sharpen too often. Mortise chisels, in contrast, are ground specifically for mallet use and have steep bevels, 30 to 40 degrees or more, but in turn, don’t function as well for paring. Bench and firmer chisels are compromises to do both and are found with 20 to 30 degree bevels, bench chisels generally on the shallow side of that range for more efficient paring, and firmer chisels on the steep side of that range for more efficient chopping. It often varies slightly by manufacturer because of the steel each manufacturer uses. There are several factors involved, but generally, the harder the steel used, the steeper the cutting angle must be to prevent chipping the edge. Blades laminated with very hard steel at the cutting edge and soft steel atop like found in some older Western edge tools and most Japanese tools require steeper bevels than non-laminated tools.


Most new chisels aren’t sold with “secondary” or “micro” bevels added to the main bevel’s cutting edge, it’s a matter of individual preference whether they are used or not. A secondary cutting bevel is achieved by raising the chisel handle slightly during honing from anywhere from two to five degrees to add a second small bevel at the cutting edge. The advantage is significantly greater speed in honing the blade, as only a couple thousandths of that blade at the edge actually does any cutting, so why hone the entire cutting bevel? The disadvantage is that the main bevel must be honed eventually, as continued honing of only the secondary bevel will eventually round over the main bevel and require regrinding. Regrinding often shortens the life of the tool by taking off more steel than needed, so why postpone that work by honing secondary bevels? It all has to be done anyway, how and when you do it is your choice. I use secondary bevels on almost all my edge tools, but every third or fourth honing lower the handle and hone the main bevel on the coarse stone to keep it flat, and have gone as long as decades without having to regrind the main bevel in some of them.


What you need to know about chisel steel.

Here is a general rundown of the steels commonly found in chisels. Manufacturers generally use High Carbon steel; where different steel like A2 is used, that steel is generally more expensive and will be labeled as such. All these except High Speed Steel burn rather easily when sharpening on a grinder – turn that steel blue from heat, and it loses its temper and must be ground more slowly until the burned, blue steel is ground away.

Today, steels of all types are exceptionally uniform and of high quality, but that wasn’t the case a century and more ago, and manufacturers then proudly advertised the special qualities of their steel. As a result, some names like “Crucible” and “Sheffield” dating back as far as the late 1700’s are still sometimes currently used.

High Carbon Steel

After the processes were developed and refined during the middle 1800’s to reliably produce large quantities of high carbon tool steel inexpensively, such steel became the mainstay of edge tool production that continues today. “Sheffield Steel”, “Warranted Cast Steel”, modern 01 and other Tool Steels, “Swedish Steel”, “Crucible Steel”, and others. Many of the chisels made during the late 1800’s still serve admirably today; as properly forged and heat treated carbon steel takes an excellent edge while is very easy to resharpen using traditional composite, water or oilstones.

Chrome Vanadium Steel

A modern, shiny tool steel used for mechanic’s tools and only occasionally seen in lower grades of chisels. The chromium and vanadium add hardness, toughness and rust resistance, and if properly made, I’m told, they can take a good cutting edge. Unfortunately, the only way I know to determine whether the chisel was properly made is to hone and use it, and of course, by then you’ve already purchased it. These are more difficult to sharpen than carbon steel, and I’m not sure if it’s the steel or the manufacturing process, but in lower tool grades it can be impossible to obtain an “excellent” cutting edge.


High Speed Steel

M2 and other formulations. Chromium, tungsten, molybdenum and vanadium are added to resist softening when the steel is overheated during use or sharpening on a high-speed grinder. Used primarily in drill bits and lathe tools, this steel is expensive, hard, tough, easy and fast to grind, holds its cutting edge longer than carbon steel, but is very difficult to hand hone and doesn’t take as fine an edge using typical sharpening stones short of diamond paste on an indexing plate.

A2 Steel

The modern compromise. High carbon steel with chromium and molybdenum added in smaller amounts than some other modern steels, but sufficient to add some toughness, hardness and longer edge life at minimum expense to the quality of the cutting edge and ease of sharpening. I find these harder blades only slightly more difficult to hand hone on traditional stones than carbon steel, and very doable without resorting to the expensive diamond pastes often recommended. I also find A2 blades take a very good edge and hold it as long or slightly longer than my best prewar carbon tools.

Rockwell Hardness

More compromises. The Rockwell index is simply a hardness test of the final, tempered blade. Chisels available today can range from RC 56 (relatively soft) to RC 64 (relatively hard). Softer steel is easier to sharpen but doesn’t hold its edge as long as harder steel, which takes longer to sharpen but holds its edge longer. Chisels above the RC 62 range can also be brittle, if not during use then when you accidentally knock one on a concrete floor and find you have a badly chipped edge that must be severely reground, shortening the life of that tool. As a practical matter working at or close to a bench, I find chisels so fast and easy to touch up on the stones, that harder steel with longer edge life isn’t necessarily better for me - my preference is the ability to take the sharpest cutting edge I can hone, but hone easily. In my plane irons however, it is real convenient to not have to dismantle, hone, reassemble and adjust any more often than I absolutely have to, and depending on the plane, that preference may take precedence over my very best cutting edge.



Forging – does it make a difference?

I think so, but it can be controversial. One view is that the more the hammer is used in shaping the hot blade as opposed to grinding it, the smaller the crystalline structure of the steel becomes and the better aligned that structure is with the cutting edge, with other benefits in carbon and grain size as well. Older tools and hand-forged tools are better because they have been shaped more by forging than modern tools. The counterargument is that in contrast to the inconsistent-quality steels of the 19th Century, high-quality modern steels benefit most from proper heat treatment, and that poor results come from manufacturer shortcuts taken to cut costs, not lack of forging. The middle ground is that additional forging is more expensive, and a manufacturer going to that expense is more likely to get the rest of it right.

As a practical matter in chisels, the differences are often subtle and subjective, but are certainly there. Almost all my older professional friends in the woodworking trades much prefer the best prewar makes of chisels to new factory chisels, however expensive. Hand forged, best quality steel is the mainstay of legions of knowledgeable Japanese tool woodworkers, and many of today’s popular custom tool and knife makers wouldn’t still be in business hand-forging edge tools if they didn’t have a superior product.