New Clearvue DC webpage finally up

[Doug Shepard]

Just thought I'd post an update. I've been watching ClearVue's site to see the new system I brought up on this thread
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=40304

CV finally has this on their site for anyone that wanted a look-see
http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Order_Page.htm
It looks like they've decided to name this one Mini Max CV1400
Hope nobody gets this confused with a new machine from a Texas importer of Italian machinery.:)

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks, Doug. I happy to see Ed is coming out with a few more items to help those with specific needs. Jim.

[Matt Meiser]

It looks like they've decided to name this one Mini Max CV1400
Hope nobody gets this confused with a new machine from a Texas importer of Italian machinery.:)

Ones with that name will be a collector's item after said importer's lawyers find out. Why would they risk that? :confused:

[Doug Shepard]

Ones with that name will be a collector's item after said importer's lawyers find out. Why would they risk that? :confused:

I found the name a bit curious too. I'm guessing they haven't realized yet that there's a conflict. Though I'm sure they've heard of Mini Max, I willing to bet it just slipped their mind. It's only a small family run business (no legal staff) and I don't get the sense from talking to them that they'd intentionally try pulling anything below the belt. My system will actually be Serial #1 which might have had some collectors value - except they dont have any serial nbrs on them. I'm not even sure their systems have labels with model nbrs on them either, so collectors value is probably nil.

[Jeff Horton]

Glad their prices didn't go up anymore than they did. I have plans to install one but I have to admit that spending a grand for DC is tough. Then half that again for duct work. Even though with my allergies it's cheaper than the Doctor visits.

I need to get this on order but I would rather be woodworking than installing woodworking machinery. :)

[tod evans]

Ones with that name will be a collector's item after said importer's lawyers find out. Why would they risk that? :confused:

matt, i seriously doubt that jim strain is going to have any issues with ed calling one of his dust collectors a minimax cv1400? jim`s a pretty down to earth guy who i think has better things to do than chasing after a dust collector manufacturer......02 tod


[edit] heck with a name like that paul cresti might just buy one.....

[Brian Gumpper]

Quick question on the CV or any DC for that matter. I currently use a JDS 1.5HP that I roll from machine to machine. My planer clogs it and I eat a lot of dust when ripping ply so I am assuming it's not enough. A friend has the big CV and that think will suck your arm off so I am leaning in that direction.

My question is regarding the ratings. I know there is always some marketing adders on the numbers but JDS rates my 1.5HP Dust Force at 1250CFM which is about the same as the CV. Is the difference in rating related to pipe length at all? So after 10' of flex is my JDS much less where the CV is not? Just curios, not very familiar with the art of air flow.

The other thing is how loud is the CV? My friend has his in a plywood "shed" with sound insulation on the inside. I don't have that kind of space and will end up mounting if up off the floor with a long drop hose for the can.

[Jeff Horton]

My question is regarding the ratings. I know there is always some marketing adders on the numbers but JDS rates my 1.5HP Dust Force at 1250CFM which is about the same as the CV. Is the difference in rating related to pipe length at all?
From what I gather there is a lot of factors that can be monkeyed with. How much pipe, what size pipe, where and how you measure cfm. I don't think any two manufactors measure them the same. Bill Pentz measurements are the only ones I really trust as accurate and consistent. I imagine that most manufactors numbers are accurate, just they sometimes measure it where or with a method that makes them look good.

As for pipe, yes is make a big difference. Flex pipe is rough inside and that disrupts the airflow. Elbows disrupt the air flow. Smooth and straight is best but of course it's not usually possible to run it that way.

[Doug Shepard]

The Bill Pentz site probably has the most complete info I've seen about the ratings and testing.
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Measurement.cfm

There is a bit of a Reader's Digest version on Clearvue's site
http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Beginners_Corner.htm

[Darl Bundren]

The other thing is how loud is the CV? My friend has his in a plywood "shed" with sound insulation on the inside. I don't have that kind of space and will end up mounting if up off the floor with a long drop hose for the can.
I am finishing up running ducting for my Clearvue, and while I do not have decibel measurements, it's loud to the point that I'll not work in there without hearing protection. On Ed's site in the forums, some guy did do decibel measurements, and numberwise the cyclone running is about the equivalent of a planer planing wood, in the low nineties, maybe? The quality of the DC sound is different, though, because of the lower pitch.

I built a wood framework to mount mine on to keep it off of the wall (which supports our bedroom upstairs) and will eventually enclose it with some sort of soundproofing. The footprint is pretty small and you might consider going this route. It would'nt be a shed per se, but I believe that it will help with the noise.

[Bill Pentz]

Although I definitely have a biased opinion in favor of Clear Vue because they pay me a small royalty on each cyclone they make from my designs, I do want to share that this new Mini CV1400 cyclone built by Ed Morgano is pretty exciting and will probably change small shop dust collection in a very good way.

In 1999 my own shop with its “best” rated cyclone, ducting and fine filter landed me in the hospital. My new respiratory doctor took away my woodworking until I got my shop cleaned up. As an engineer I knew I would not be happy until I measured the problem, so had medical air quality tests run on my shop and home. My inspector was the senior government inspector for OSHA testing in California, thanks to my having worked as a prior director and senior engineer over another air quality program for the State of California. That inspector spent a whole day educating me.

He told me and I later verified by testing at the university where I have long taught that my cyclone put close to 100% of the airborne 30-micon and smaller dust particles into the filter. That dust is full of silica (glass) that quickly cuts and tears its way even through the finest filter. He said I needed a pressure gauge on my system to show when it was time to change filters, because the high dust load from my cyclone had quickly destroyed my filter and the dust was so fine my shop looked great. His particle counter showed over 13,000 times higher for my shop than considered medically safe with more than double the maximum allowed average dust load for a commercial shop. He explained this particle count was really bad news as my shop tested clean before turning on my cyclone then failed its test before doing any woodworking. Almost all that dust was at least three months old stuff stirred up when we turned on my cyclones because I had not done any woodworking for the three months spent recovering.

He said the only safe way to use any existing hobbyist cyclone in his opinion was to trade out to a 5 hp blower that would really move enough air to capture the fine dust as it was made and then blow that air from the cyclone directly outside. He shared that I could get off the Internet CFM requirement tables for almost every type and size stationary tool. Air engineers did considerable testing and have spent over a decade refining how much airflow we need to provide good fine dust collection at our tools. He said even having ample airflow was not enough because I also needed to upgrade my hoods, change all my ducting and change the tool ports. Normal “chip collection” hoods do not amply contain and control the fine dust so it can escape before capture. Likewise, air at typical dust collection pressures is like water and will barely compress at all. That means my smaller ports and duct acted just like a mostly closed water valve and killed my airflow. I needed to use at least all 6” ducting. The single port machines needed 6” ports and the two port machines needed 5” for the larger and 3.5” or 4” for the smaller port.

I went through a lot of work learning the math, physics and engineering to try and make my 1999 “best” cyclone generate less hp killing resistance and provide better fine dust separation. Use of the neutral vane setup worked out by my friend and fellow engineer Jim Halbert saved almost a third on horsepower but the separation was still dismal. I spent nearly a year designing, building and testing, but nothing I could do would make that traditional cyclone design more than about 40% efficient at separating off the 30-micron and smaller airborne dust particles. Although I shared out my changes on my Cyclone Modifications web pages and almost every vendor today now sells their cyclones with my suggested changes, I finally realized that to get good enough fine dust separation to avoid constantly killing filters I was going to have to start from scratch with a whole new design.

I did just that and came up with the ideal woodworking cyclone at 13.5” in diameter with a whole different type of angled inlet that used both a neutral vane and circular air ramp. Unfortunately, it needed a monster 5 hp motor and 16” diameter impeller to turn the air in this tight of a separation spiral. Back in 1999 when I did this work a 1.5 hp motor was considered huge as was a 12” diameter impeller. I finally built a compromise cyclone that was larger so could use a smaller motor. It worked incredibly well as many have learned from building one from my plans or buying one from Ed Morgano with Clear Vue, the only firm that makes my design.

So when Ed Morgano with Clear Vue Cyclones last year asked me to help with a cyclone that would fit under a low ceiling, I realized that my original design that worked best during testing would be an ideal unit for him to make and sell. I talked Ed into including in the blower modifications enough pressure so that this system can actually move the air needed for good fine dust collection through even the smaller 4” ducting and ports that we mostly find readily available. It will work far better with all 6” ducting and ports but even with 4” it does a pretty incredible job. We had to go through some more blower redesign to get all working just right without putting the motor at risk of pulling too many amps, but this unit is now in production. It works incredibly well both in terms of efficiency and total separation. Good work Ed!

Bill Pentz

[Aaron Beaver]

Bill are you saying all filters will get torn up and cause problems? I know its best to vent outside but some can't do that. I am just asking from this sentence you posted above. Or as long as you keep your filter clean you are good.


"That dust is full of silica (glass) that quickly cuts and tears its way even through the finest filter. He said I needed a pressure gauge on my system to show when it was time to change filters, because the high dust load from my cyclone had quickly destroyed my filter and the dust was so fine my shop looked great."

[Bill Pentz]

Bill are you saying all filters will get torn up and cause problems? I know its best to vent outside but some can't do that. I am just asking from this sentence you posted above. Or as long as you keep your filter clean you are good.

Aaron,

You have it exactly right. Our fine filters have a limited life that depends upon dust loading, type of wood, how often you clean your filters, filter surface area, and pressure in your system.

Filters are a tough catch-22 situation, meaning you can't win for losing and are always going to need to eventually replace filters. If you clean too little the pressure goes up killing the airflow we need for good fine dust collection while pushing the fine filter destroying dust right through the filter pores. If you clean too much you wear out your filters from the cleaning.

In commercial systems they track the system pressure after every cleaning. The dust builds up in the fine filter strands a cake that does not get removed with normal shaking or pulse air cleaning, the pressure goes up. It takes about 9 cleaning cycles for a new filter to build its permanent dust cake, highest "clean" pressure, and achieve its best level of filtering because that blockage improves filtering. During that "seasoning" process our filters are sieves that pass most of the finest unhealthiest dust until about four filter cleanings. This is not a problem in most commercial dust collection systems because getting them certified for indoor use is so expensive most are just put outside where the fine dust just blows away. Somewhere around 20 cleaning cycles the pressure begins to fall meaning our filters are getting worn. When the pressure falls enough most end up either having to wash their all poly felt filters or replace their poly-paper blended filters. With the all poly able to live through about 4-5 machine washings, their double the initial cost ends up costing about half as much as the blended filters most use.

For commercial dust collection systems that vent inside into facilities that must pass regular government air quality tests, the vendors use filters tested and certified according to ASHRAE standards when new, not after building up this dust cake. A well seasoned filter will filter 20 to 30 times better than a brand new filter. Unfortunately with no oversight on our vendors and the testing being very expensive, most hobbyist filters are advertised with their outdoor fully “seasoned” filtering levels. This means most pass the finest unhealthiest dust most of the time when used indoors. Between moving too little air to capture the fine dust as it is made, hoods that do not control and contain this fine dust, and these open filters, most small shops build up dangerously high levels of fine dust unless they regularly get blown out thoroughly.

bill

[Doug Shepard]

Bill
Thanks for chiming in on this thread. I essentially bought this new system sight unseen and decided to be the guinea pig. Online pics weren't even available until 3 days after I bought. I was pretty confident dealing with Ed that I was getting good advice but it sure is nice to hear a ringing endorsement from the Grand Poobah of the DC Lodge.:D

[Tim Wagner]

How large of a pipe needs to go outside, and does the filter sit outside also?

How much can I expect to pay?

[Doug Shepard]

Tim
Looks like the current price is $945 which inludes shipping + $140 for the 2 filters from Wynn Environmental. That's before whatever you end up spending on ducting, electrical stuff, and other installation hardware. It's best with 6" pipe, but I think they also have a 4" intake port they can substitute if want to run 4" and dont mind losing 300 CFM. If by outside, you mean outdoors, I'm not even sure if you need the filters though. Give Ed Morgano at ClearVue a call (864-878-3827) - he'll answer any of your questions and give advice on your particular setup without any sales pressure. No affiliation - they just have great customer service. I just last weekend finally bought PVC ducting so still dont have the whole setup operational yet, but the brief periods I've powered it up, every loose piece of paper and dust in the shop started slowing heading toward the cyclone. I'm expecting some serious suckage.

[Tim Wagner]

Tim
Looks like the current price is $945 which inludes shipping + $140 for the 2 filters from Wynn Environmental. That's before whatever you end up spending on ducting, electrical stuff, and other installation hardware. It's best with 6" pipe, but I think they also have a 4" intake port they can substitute if want to run 4" and dont mind losing 300 CFM. If by outside, you mean outdoors, I'm not even sure if you need the filters though. Give Ed Morgano at ClearVue a call (864-878-3827) - he'll answer any of your questions and give advice on your particular setup without any sales pressure. No affiliation - they just have great customer service. I just last weekend finally bought PVC ducting so still dont have the whole setup operational yet, but the brief periods I've powered it up, every loose piece of paper and dust in the shop started slowing heading toward the cyclone. I'm expecting some serious suckage.

ya you mentioned venting it to the outside, I do have houses on either side (10" away from ours) with kids that run up and down the driveways. So naturaly i wouldn't want to be exhausting dust at them or there house. I just figured you would still want a filter on the end. even if it's mounted outside, posibly 9' above grade. 6" ducts aren't a problem, furnace ducts hang 8" down now. I only have the TS now, so I can add ducts as I need them.

[Jim O'Dell]

Tim, I ducted my exhaust outside with no filters, but then the closest house is about 150 or so feet from my shop. I used 8" pipe to a 8-6-6wye, then short 6" flex to the louvered exhaust ports in the outside wall. If you need to go to the problem of adding the filters, I'd keep it inside and not have to punch the hole through the wall. I'm not sure neighbors that close would be thrilled with have the exhaust aimed at their house. Mine sounds like a small turbine engine from the outside without filters. Filters would muffle it some, but I bet it would still make for some "What the____ is that noise??" :D :eek: :D conversations with the neighbors! Might be better at resale time that way anyway. Mine is a detached shop building and the 2 holes are from the attic space, so still easy to get around if I decide to move. Not sure what else it would be used for than a shop or maybe a game room, as per the subdivisions rules, detached buildings can not have running water. I guess they didn't want a bunch of extended families moving in!! Jim.

[Tim Wagner]

thanks for your help. I'll let you know what I decide.

[John Schreiber]

Has anybody tried venting outside some of the time? In my shop, I have the doors open wide about 80% of the time when I'm working, but when it gets below freezing, I can't spare any of the heat inside the shop.

Could I vent outside in three seasons and use a filter in the winter?

Also, has anyone tried venting through a roof? I do have nighbors close and I thought that might decrease noise and any possible dust issues.

[Jim Becker]

John, I actually thought about venting outside part of the time, but never worked out the logistics. (Be sure you account for keeping critters out of the vent...)

[walter stellwagen]

Me too I live at 8000 feet so venting outside in the winter is really not practical
I bundle up and use my easy smart. Since I have a dust sucker which has a huge
inlet to the filter the logistics seem heavy Perhaps we should have a thread or
something on the topic.

Walt

[Bill Pentz]

In 1999 even after seeing my allergy tests I had a hard time believing my doctors when they blamed my woodworking hobby for nearly killing me. After reading all the available small shop dust collection information I bought a good air cleaner, faithfully used my 3M NIOSH approved dual cartridge dust mask whenever making fine dust, plus used the “top” magazine rated cyclone with vendor designed and supplied ducting. My allergy testing clearly showed I had rapidly built up a strong reaction to many species of woods, so I paid for a medical air quality test run on my shop. That testing showed that after three months of no woodworking, just turning on my cyclone launched enough fine dust that I needed to put on my mask. That testing also showed my vendor had gravely exaggerated in their advertising. Their blower moved less than half the minimum air at my larger tools shown by over twenty years of air engineering as needed to collect the fine dust amply to avoid failing a government air quality test. Their ducting design was gravely undersized to move that needed air. Sadly, after throwing away the original internal cyclone filter that kept plugging per the advice of my vendor, the replacement big bag filter was a sieve that freely passed most of the fine dust because the blast of chips on the side had worn big holes in that near new filter. Worse, even that huge filter was gravely undersized to support the existing airflow resulting in the constant plugging, plus over cleaning also quickly ruined that filter. My inspector said my vendor probably also forgot to mention that there is almost zero chance of good fine dust collection without also replacing most stock small shop tool hoods and ports. In short, my cyclone system that left my shop looking clean provided at best a false sense of security. The considerable invisible fugitive dust that escaped collection continued to build in my shop. With this dust taking six months to years to break down or dissipate, there was so much in my shop that almost any airflow from my tools, dust collection system, air compressor, etc. launched this fugitive dust airborne again and again. In short there was no safe time to work in my shop without also wearing my mask. My inspector said almost all small shops that vent their dust collectors or cyclones inside similarly fail with terrible air quality. Because my shop was attached to my home, every time I went through the shared door my home became more contaminated. Fine airborne dust rapidly went into my home when I opened the door, plus this dust is also carried on our clothes, skin, hair, etc. In short, just the little wood working we did that day left his meters showing my home was also badly contaminated with fine dust.

Rather than whine about my situation, I went to work to figure out what went wrong and what needed to be done to make repair. I sorted through the jumbled mess of small shop, hobbyist and vendor information to define what is actually needed for good fine dust collection. In a nutshell we need to upgrade almost all tool hoods and ports to control and collect the dust, move between 800 to 1000 real CFM at our larger tools, use an amply sized blower to move the air, use big enough ducting to carry the needed air, and then exhaust the air outside. Some like me have weather or other constraints that preclude exhausting outside, so we need to filter. My testing showed all small shop cyclone designs put too much dust into the filters, so we either needed huge filters or a much better separating cyclone design. I spent a lot of time improving the existing cyclone design testing and refining suggested changes, plus making my own improvements. Although I shared out those changes on what eventually became my Cyclone Modification web pages and most now use my suggestions, even with my suggested changes these existing cyclones remain a poor solution to use with filters. We need a much better fine dust separating cyclone which is why I engineered and built such a unit then shared that design on my web pages.

Even with my better cyclone design I still have long recommended exhausting outside whenever possible. Why wear out our expensive filters when there is no need, especially when almost none have the test gear to know when it is time to replace our filters? The easiest way to exhaust outside is snake an 8” line from your system outside. I have helped many setup systems that can exhaust outside or to filters. Doing so is easy by buying or making a simple diverter. Here is a rough sketch of how to make a diverter box. The last I made used quarter round with weather stripping insulation inside the box to give a little better seal.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/Cyclone/AirDiverterBox.gif

bill

[Tim Wagner]

Bill, It sounds like you have put a ton of time into this. I have another discussion going at http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=562685#post562685

My question is now, with a tall house and close neighbors, what is it going to take HP, and system size wise, to move the exhaust air from the unit (DC) located in the basement. some 20-30 feet up above the roof line. will there be enough flow over such a long run to exhaust the dust without gravity dragging it back down the pipe? this is probibly the only option I have. what good is a 120 doller filter that ends up landing you in the hospital. personaly I think these systems should be regulated by the goverment to perform as advertised with new and clean filters, not seasond ones.

Ps, as far as redsigned DC hoods. does this mean the DC setup on my PM 2000 isn't good enough, or large enough?

[Bill Pentz]

Bill, It sounds like you have put a ton of time into this. I have another discussion going at http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=562685#post562685

My question is now, with a tall house and close neighbors, what is it going to take HP, and system size wise, to move the exhaust air from the unit (DC) located in the basement. some 20-30 feet up above the roof line. will there be enough flow over such a long run to exhaust the dust without gravity dragging it back down the pipe? this is probibly the only option I have. especialy if all the DC designers lie and say there systems do things that they don't, like clean the air. what good is a 120 doller filter that ends up landing you in the hospital. personaly I think these systems should be regulated by the goverment to perform as advertised with new and clean filters, not seasond ones.

Ps, as far as redsigned DC hoods. does this mean the DC setup on my PM 2000 isn't good enough, or large enough?

Tim,

Although some would like you to think I am a vendor, I am not nor do I own, work for, or in any other way represent and of the firms that make or sell dust collectors or cyclones. After trouble with the expensive "top" magazine rated cyclone I bought, as a concerned engineer who did not want to give up my woodworking hobby, I did put a ton of time and research into figuring out what it takes for good fine dust collection.

The basics are real simple, you must have hoods that control, capture and deliver the fine dust as it is made and almost all stock hoods will not do this. Air engineers long ago learned that without revised hoods the roughly 40 to 60 mile per hour ducting air speeds are no where near enough to capture dust being launched by blades bits and cutters at over 100 miles per hour. They also learned that once the fine dust escapes capture, it spreads so quickly that there is almost no chance of clearing quick enough with air cleaners and exhaust fans to avoid failing an air quality test. To pull that dust in air engineers worked out and spent over twenty years refining the need to move between 800 to 1000 CFM at our larger tools depending upon the air quality level you want.

To move this much air you need to know the resistance in your shop. You indicated that you were considering an 1100 CFM dust collector. That 1100 CFM represents the maximum airflow at the lowest resistance. Because blower technology is fairly mature, you can look at almost any good blower table and see the best expected performance you will get at higher pressures. You likewise need to use a static pressure calculator to get a close estimate of the overall resistance in your shop. A typical 2 car garage sized shop with the normal ducting and a typical good fine filter that is fully seasoned will generate about 6.5” of resistance. Adding 30 feet more vertical run to exhaust that air outside eliminates about 2.5” of resistance for the filter, but adds about 1.3” more resistance for the long exit pipe, leaving about 5.3” overall resistance. If you looked at the Cincinnati Fan pressure blower tables (http://www.cincinnatifan.com/catalogs/PB-1102-internet.pdf) you would see that it takes an 11” diameter impeller turned by a standard 3450 RPM motor to reach a maximum airflow of 800 CFM at about 1” of resistance pulling about 1.52 hp. By using a special 7” oversized inlet tube and letting the 1.5 hp motor run at over 2 hp which most will do for a few minutes until they get hot and burn up, a vendor can get one of these blowers to get 1155 CFM. At your 5.3” of resistance that same blower will be loafing along at about 1.16 hp and only moving about 630 CFM.

That right there is a big problem. Air engineers long ago determined that we need to move a real 800 CFM at our larger machines to meet OSHA air quality, closer to 900 CFM to meet ACGIH air quality, and about 1000 CFM to meet medical recommended air quality for woodworking facilities which is the standard in Europe. Using that same fan table and 6” of resistance we see that the first blower which will move enough air uses a 13” blower wheel and needs 2.47 hp. Now add back in that 2.5” for your dirty filter plus the 2.25 to 4” of overhead to drive a trashcan separator or cyclone and suddenly your resistance climbs from six to over 11”. Now at 11” we find ourselves needing 3.04 hp turning a 14” diameter impeller. That is why I believe that most 3 hp and smaller cyclones are undersized to provide good fine dust collection, especially when we choose to use a less efficient backward curved impeller to reduce noise. This same table shows that we do not get our 1000 CFM airflow until pushing 3.15 hp to turn an over 15” diameter impeller.

So what does all this say? With our only needing 350 CFM to do a good job of collecting the same sawdust and chips we would otherwise sweep up with a broom, almost any 1.5 hp dust collector will work great for you. With your having a basement shop and a desire to get rid of the fine dust instead of allowing it to contaminate your home, you are going to have to move lots more air and either exhaust outside or do some serious filtering.

Please take the time to study and understand my web pages before jumping over this same cliff that I and so many others had to repeatedly land on our heads to finally learn to avoid.

bill