Bevel Up vs. Regular Smooth Plane

[Hans Braul]

I have decided I need to invest in a high quality smooth plane. I am looking at two Lee Valley products - the #4 Smooth plane and the bevel up smoother plane. The advantage I can see with the bevel up plane is you can easily change blades to accommodate different grains (they sell 25, 38 and 50 degrees bevels). With the regular plane, cutting angle is fixed. The only thing I can see that the regular smooth plane has the the bevel up doesn't is a chip breaker. What are the pros and cons?

Thanks
Hans

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Bevel up planes don't have chipbreakers because they don't need them. Some bevel down planes don't have chipbreakers, either.

[Gary Herrmann]

Hans, LV sells a #4 bevel up smoother and a #4 1/2 (the BUS). I've got the #4 1/2, among others. I'm not a plane expert. I tuned and honed the irons via scary sharp and was very pleased with the results when I used it to smooth the top of an occasional table I built. Prior to that, my only experience with using planes was with a LV low angle block to trim end grain to size.

I'm one of those guys that doesn't get as much shop time as I'd like. My goal is to increase the amount of work I do with hand tools. I suspect it will be a long road.

Buy what feels right to you, hopefully after you get a chance to try it.

[John Todd]

Without starting off the LV or LN debate again (i'd vote for LV) I'd recommend getting a Bevel Up plane. Traditionalists seem to have a preference for bevel down standard bailey style bench planes, but as a beginner I don't think you can beat the flexibility of a bevel up plane. LV has the advantage of the three bevel up planes sharing the same blade: BU Jointer, LA Jack, or BU Smoother, or there's also the narrower LAS (low angle smoother) with a different blade. I'd recommend the BU Smoother. It's a wonderful plain. Only drawback to it is that you can't shoot with it. If that's important, buy a second plane, the LA Jack, a wonderful plain... or buy the narrower LAS (Low angle smoother) that can shoot as well. The difference between the BU Smoother and the LAS is basically the difference between a 4 1/2 and a 4. They're both good planes. Lie-Nielsen also makes wonderful BU planes, 62 and 164 replicas.

[Ben Grunow]

I have some old stanleys (not sure what age or number but 3 are about 6" long and I have some larger ones too, might be less than 20 years old, I don't have a clue) waiting for my a time when I can tune them to be usable. I have never really looked at the blades but are you saying that the bevel should be up on all of them? Also, while I'm asking, is there any simple way (website to log onto) of determining the age and value, if any, of my planes? Any help would be appreciated.

[Mark Rios]

I have some old stanleys (not sure what age or number but 3 are about 6" long and I have some larger ones too, might be less than 20 years old, I don't have a clue) waiting for my a time when I can tune them to be usable. I have never really looked at the blades but are you saying that the bevel should be up on all of them? Also, while I'm asking, is there any simple way (website to log onto) of determining the age and value, if any, of my planes? Any help would be appreciated.


This should help a little:

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

[Ben Grunow]

Thanks Mark. That should do it.

[Clinton Findlay]

Ben, the old Stanleys will (with few exceptions) be bevel down types.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Ben, chances are at 6" in length, they are block planes and will be bevel up...just compare to Patrick Leach's site you were given and figure our what it is you have. Many/most of the pictures shold clue you in to how they are assembled for use. If not, let us know via numbers or pictures and we can further help.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Hans--it could be argued that a bevel up plane is more extensible in a variety of planing situations. Even Tom Lie-Nielsen thinks his bevel up planes make for wide use.

I think personally that for the smoother-sized planes like what you are looking to purchase, the bed angle of the plane is less an issue in typical North American woods.

Once you start trying to use softer woods or very hard woods, that is when I believe a bevel up planes come into their own. At least if one is going to posses as few planes as necessary.

Whether the LV 4, 4 1/2 or the bevel up smoother [a different beast than the low angle smoother] may well depend on the type of woods and functions you desire.

Take care, Mike

[Adriaan Schepel]

Interesting topic.

Why can't you shoot with the bevel-up smoother?

Cheers,
Adriaan

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Adriaan,

The LV bevel up smoother is coffin shaped. The LV low angle smoother has straight sides and is decent on a shooting board.

A better plane for all but small work on a shooting board is one with more mass--a number 5 or larger. Or, what my preference is, the LN No. 9.

Take care, Mike

[Hans Braul]

Thanks to all. Deirdre, you say the chip breaker isn't needed on a bevel up. Why? If the effective cutting angle is the same, what makes the bevel up not need the chip breaker? Is it just an unnecessary feature of the regular plane design?

Thanks
Hans

[Ian Gillis]

On a bevel up plane the bevel itself deflects the chips and causes them to curl away.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

What Ian said. Sorry to sound so cryptic.

[Hans Braul]

Sorry to be so dense, but....

On a bevel up plane, a 38 degree blade gives an effective cutting angle of 50 degrees, which is the same as on a regular plane. I don't see how the blade itself acts as the chip breaker since there is nothing forcing the fibers up beyond the top surface of the blade. On a regular plane, the fibers are forced up beyond 50 degrees by the chip breaker, but no such thing exists on the bevel up.

Rookie in need of training....
Hans

[Ian Gillis]

Sorry to be so dense, but....

On a bevel up plane, a 38 degree blade gives an effective cutting angle of 50 degrees, which is the same as on a regular plane. I don't see how the blade itself acts as the chip breaker since there is nothing forcing the fibers up beyond the top surface of the blade. On a regular plane, the fibers are forced up beyond 50 degrees by the chip breaker, but no such thing exists on the bevel up.

Rookie in need of training....
Hans
As I understand it, the difference is that a chip taken with a bevel down plane will follow the flat plane of the back of the blade and foul itself on the lever cap (or wooden wedge) and block the path of subsequent shavings, causing a jam. The chipbreaker is essentially a deflector that diverts the shaving upward and prevents it jamming into the lever cap. It creates clearance.

With a bevel up design the shaving follows the plane of the bevel which is steeper than the bed angle of the blade. The bevel itself serves to deflect the shaving away from the lever cap (cap iron). There is a clearance angle formed by the bevel and the top surface of the blade. A chipbreaker would be redundant in this case.

I don't know if I'm expressing that very well. Give me 2 weeks and I'll create a Powerpoint version that will make much more sense :o

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

As Ian said, it's not the angle, it's the location of the bevel that makes the difference.

[Ben Grunow]

Hey Clinton and Mike- I looked at my planes finally and they are even marked with numbers! I have 3 #4's and 2 #5's (one of each size is not made by Stanley- or not marked with the word Stanley anyway). No idea how old but they work. How should I get the rust off without damaging the black paint? SHould I just wax these to prevent the rust again? THese should have their bevels down if I am correct. Makes sense because the blade angles are quite high.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Those are bevel down planes. I'll leave others to handle the fettling questions.

Heh, even I don't have 3 #4s. :) Two, yes, but not three.

[Ben Grunow]

You gotta hit the tag sales. Mine were had for less than $50 for all 5. THey need some rust removal but I have used them and they plane. I also have an old beater plane that is 18" long (no name, broken handles, cracked parts). I should take some pics to see if anyone is intersted for parts.

[Ian Gillis]

Naval jelly, which you can get at the hardware store is one way. My preferred method is electrolysis. All you need is a battery charger, a large bucket and some washing soda.

http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm

Edit: There is one problem with the instructions on the above site. He lists stainless steel as an alternate electrode material. DO NOT use stainless... it releases hexavalent chromium during electrolysis. This is a hazardous material that you don't want to have anything to do with.

[Ben Grunow]

Cool Ian but what are the settings for the charger. Mine is combo 6/12 volt at different amperages. Probably 12v on low but have to ask anyway. Thanks for the link.