Jet Slow Speed Sharpener??

[CPeter James]

I got my new Woodcraft flyer in the mail and on the front cover is the "new" Jet Slow Speed sharpening machine ala Tormek. Even at the same price, $399.99. Has anyone seen or tried one? Why would you spend that much money and not get the "real thing"? It appears that it comes with no jigs so they would all be extra. At least the Tormek comes with the basic jigs to get you started. Does this have some superior features? The stone wheel looks like the 1000 grit wheel on my Makita. Is it "gradable" like the Tormek? It also looks smaller than the Tormek. No, I don't have a Tormek or work for anyone selling them, just curious.

CPeter

[Chris Barton]

I have seen the new Jet and I own a Tormek. The jet is a nice looking machine and supposedly the wheel is gradeable. Also, any jig the will fit the Tormek will fit the jet. The water pan on the jet is clearly better than the Tormek, mine slops water all over when I am using it. The jet also has variable speed control but, I don't think that provides any advantage. My take on it is that WMH Tool group saw what I have heard called a "low hanging fruit" opportunity in business lingo. The Tormek is a devilishly simple machine and should cost much less than what it does. Instead of trying to undercut the market they came in at the same price and I am sure their profit margin on this machine is huge. Additionally, they appear to have many more attachments than the Tormek, more attractive design and what appears to be some nice improvements over the Tormek which has had only one change since its inception which was a micro adjustment on the rest. The kicker right now is that they are offering a free sub base unit with some storage areas if you by the machine and an attachment. If I were in the market I would certainly consider this machine over the Tormek.

[Allen Bookout]

Chris,

Did you get a look at the user instructions? That could be interesting if they are written by someone in the far east. Surely they were smart enough to copy Tomek's.

Allen

[Mike Wenzloff]

The instructions are covered by copyright--that would be one way for Tormek to strike back, so to speak. But it would be an easy thing to do a full rewrite.

I was just using the wife's Tormek yesterday. Several years old now and still runs as quiet and as nice as when first made. That is another issue I think Jet et al needs to pay attention to if they match the Tormek in price, as Jet is.

Given the track record of the one, and given the same price, I would opt for the T machine again. And besides, if the Tormek accessories fit the Jet, then most likely the reverse is true, so Jet has no compelling advantage there.

It'll most likey be a topic that's around for a while.

Take care, Mike

[Jeff Farris]

I will preface this message by reminding everyone that I sell TORMEK for a living, and have for 13 years. It is all that I do. I don't sell anything else. I certainly have an ulterior motive for making this post. That said, I will try to provide a fair and balanced assessment of the machine. I ordered one and tried it out. Here are some observations.

The motor on the Jet is a Chinese made DC motor. That is how they achieved the variable speed. One of the first things mentioned in the maintenance section of the DVD is how to replace the brushes. The TORMEK motor is a totally enclosed, continuous duty rated induction motor made in either Germany, Great Britain or Sweden (they use multiple manufacturers for guaranteed supply). It should never need any work or maintenance whatsoever, even in commercial or industrial use.

The drive system does not work as well as the TORMEK. They built a "torque adjustment" into the drive train, which forces the motor into the drive wheel. That and the variable speed seem to me to be an attempt at product differentiation to solve a problem that barely exists. Yes, on occasion a TORMEK can slip, but as detailed in the Owner's Handbook, if you rough up the surface of the drive wheel, the slipping will stop, and you can apply as much force as you can without stalling the stone. That should be a consumer's first test. Try to stop a TORMEK by leaning a tool against it, and then do the same with the JET. I have used TORMEK machines of every conceivable age, with every conceivable diameter of stone, down to 6-3/4 inches. I have never, ever wished that the motor turned faster.

One TORMEK feature that has been admired by owners for years is its simplicity. Everything you could ever need to work on is really easy to get to. Jet, in an attempt to make their copy more appealing, has added a plastic drawer into the frame and added plastic sides to the frame to protect the motor. Working on the Jet -- cleaning the drive wheel, changing the bushings, replacing a motor -- would be much, much more involved.

They did do a superb job of redesigning the water tray, and the splash guard added to the top of the machine does direct water back into the water tray, instead of landing on the top of the machine. However, putting on and taking off the water tray is not nearly as straightforward as it is on the TORMEK.

TORMEK provides their owner's with an 156 page book with 549 detailed line drawings and dozens of photographs detailing the use of each and every accessory for the system. The Jet owner's manual has absolutely nothing written on how to use the machine. It has exploded view parts diagrams of the jigs, but not word one about how to use them. There is a DVD with the Jet, but it is not step-by-step, nor could it be called comprehensive.

I have to take Chris Barton's comment about more attachments to task.

What does Jet offer that TORMEK does not?

The optional 4 drawer base, for one. Well, one problem that I discover with TORMEK customers very frequently is that they have the machine too high. On most tools, you need the machine on a table so that the top of the machine is just about the level of your belt buckle. Why raise the machine another 5 inches? Now it is even higher, and a standard work bench is another 5 inches too tall.

An attachment bar so that you have a bar in front of the wheel and in front of the hone at the same time. Nice feature.

An attachment bar so that you can have a bar on the side of the wheel. I personally cannot see the advantage to this.

A plane iron camber jig. I have not tried this yet. On first blush, it looks like it is going to introduce far more camber than you want on anything except a scrub plane. I have taught TORMEK owners how to camber a blade on the TORMEK with nothing except the standard straight edge jig for 13 years. You really don't need to spend another hundred dollars to do this job.

All the rest of their accessories are direct copies of the TORMEK accessory.

What does TORMEK offer that Jet does not?

An attachment to sharpen jointer and planer blades.

An accessory that sharpens skew chisels and large roughing gouges.

An accessory that sharpens very short chisels and gouges.

An one piece accessory for sharpening bowl gouges. Our fingernail jig is still protected by a patent, so that couldn't copy it exactly. Their attempt looks like it will be much harder to adjust and use with any consistency.

An interchangeable profiled honing wheel that can match just about any turning or carving tool.

Only one change since its introduction?. In the 13 years that I have been associated with TORMEK the machine has undergone constant improvement. The horizontal base and working from both sides of the machine was introduced about 10 years ago. The shaft, washers and nut of the main shaft have gone from black oxide to chrome plated to stainless steel (Jet's are bare steel -- not plated and not stainless). The patented AngleMaster set up guide was added several years ago, replacing the 4 sided, 4 angle guide. Just a few years ago the frame was redesigned for better clearance when working on short tools. And, most recently, micro adjustment was added to the Universal Support. And, best of all, every improvement, with the exception of the new frame, was backwards compatible with every older machine built for the last 20 years.

That's the machine. In the accessory line, TORMEK has added at least one new jig or major redevelopment of an existing jig every year or every other year. And that has no sign of stopping. There are very exciting things just on the horizon.

Everyone has become so accustomed to cheap tools that they expect everything to be cheap. Mr. Barton's comment about the TORMEK's simplicity and that it is overpriced overlooks the quality of each and every component and the fact that the machine is made by a workforce that is both devoted to the machine's quality and paid a wage that allows them to live a comfortable life. Certainly, it was inevitable that some company would see TORMEK's success and try to grab some for itself. We certainly invite everyone to carefully compare each and every option on the market. If you look at the available options carefully, I think you will still find that TORMEK is your best value in power sharpening.

[Jim DeLaney]

I noticed that the Woodcraft ad said something like: "...variable speed control allows you to lower the speed as the stone wears...."

Don't they have that backwards? As the stone wears, its diameter gets smaller, and you'd need to have it spin faster to achieve the same surface speed as a full sized stone.

Just a bit of a nitpick...

BTW, the base, with drawers for the jigs, seems like a good idea. I may just build one for my Tormek.

[CPeter James]

I noticed that the Woodcraft ad said something like: "...variable speed control allows you to lower the speed as the stone wears...."

Don't they have that backwards? As the stone wears, its diameter gets smaller, and you'd need to have it spin faster to achieve the same surface speed as a full sized stone.

Just a bit of a nitpick...

BTW, the base, with drawers for the jigs, seems like a good idea. I may just build one for my Tormek.


I noticed that, but did not want to start the post off on too negative a tone, so let it passs.

CPeter

[Jeff Farris]

I noticed that the Woodcraft ad said something like: "...variable speed control allows you to lower the speed as the stone wears...."

Don't they have that backwards? As the stone wears, its diameter gets smaller, and you'd need to have it spin faster to achieve the same surface speed as a full sized stone.

Just a bit of a nitpick...

BTW, the base, with drawers for the jigs, seems like a good idea. I may just build one for my Tormek.

I believe that is the ad in American Woodworker. That was a big "Ooops" by the WMH marketing department. Man, I wouldn't want to be the guy in marketing that was responsible for proofreading that ad. I wonder how many other magazines it will be in that way before they get it changed?

Jim, see my comment above re: machine height. Also remember that you are constantly turning the machine around (or should be unless you can walk around it). Do you really want to add the weight of the extra base and the stuff you would put into the drawers to the machine? I don't.

Take a look at the Sharpening Station built by Norm Abram on New Yankee Workshop for an excellent base for your TORMEK. I built one on his design, except I put all the drawers on the same side (he built 3 on one side and 2 on the other). If you've seen my online videos, that is what I am working on. The pull out step overcomes the problem of needing one height for working in the vertical mount and another for working in the horizontal mount.

[Matt Meiser]

Jim, see my comment above re: machine height. Also remember that you are constantly turning the machine around (or should be unless you can walk around it). Do you really want to add the weight of the extra base and the stuff you would put into the drawers to the machine? I don't.

Plus you'll need it to be waterproof or at least water resistant. I store all my Tormek doo-dads in a cabinet over my sharpening/grinding/metalwork bench.

If you do put something under it, a lazy susan platform with a locking pin woudl be really nice for turning the machine around.

[Jeff Farris]

...
If you do put something under it, a lazy susan platform with a locking pin woudl be really nice for turning the machine around.


As long as it is really stable. I have seen several of these that customers have made and most rock and roll too much for my taste. The locking pin and the bearings have to be really top notch to not cause more problems then they solve.

[Chris Barton]

I have to take Chris Barton's comment about more attachments to task.

Jeff, that observation on my part was based upon what I saw at the Franklin, TN Woodcraft store demonstration and the displays on hand. As I said in my post, I own (and like) a Tormek. No scientific comparison was undertaken.



Everyone has become so accustomed to cheap tools that they expect everything to be cheap. Mr. Barton's comment about the TORMEK's simplicity and that it is overpriced overlooks the quality of each and every component and the fact that the machine is made by a workforce that is both devoted to the machine's quality and paid a wage that allows them to live a comfortable life. Certainly, it was inevitable that some company would see TORMEK's success and try to grab some for itself. We certainly invite everyone to carefully compare each and every option on the market. If you look at the available options carefully, I think you will still find that TORMEK is your best value in power sharpening.

Jeff, I have plenty of "good" tools but, few I would describe as cheap and I certainly didn't characterize either tool in question as cheap. In fact, I prefaced my statement that it was likely that WMH was looking to make a "fast buck" so to speak in this situation. If you want to debate "wage that allows them to live a comfortable life" I would be happy to do so. Last I heard, between incomes taxes and VAT in the EU that nearly 60% of one's salary is siphoned off by the government. But, I think that would be more appropriate to post in the off topic board. I stand by what I posted, the Tormek is a devilishly simple machine that costs more than it should. I will add that it is not my job to subsidize workers in Europe any more than it is for me to do so in Tiwan. My interest lies in the product and not the politics. Your post seems to suggest that you are feeling threatened by the presence of a competitor in an area that Tormek has enjoyed essentially no competition. If the Tormek is superior then the market will decide that and it will achieve market share comensurate with its quality. However, your own post makes me want to go look at this product again and see if I would agree with your observations. If the Tormek has the technological and quality advantages you suggest then you should rest easy and without worries.

Regards,

Chris

PS: I don't work of either company but, own equipment from both. So as the the question of "fair balance" perhaps I may have the higher ground...

[Jeff Farris]

... If you want to debate "wage that allows them to live a comfortable life" I would be happy to do so. Last I heard, between incomes taxes and VAT in the EU that nearly 60% of one's salary is siphoned off by the government. But, I think that would be more appropriate to post in the off topic board. I stand by what I posted, the Tormek is a devilishly simple machine that costs more than it should. I will add that it is not my job to subsidize workers in Europe any more than it is for me to do so in Tiwan. My interest lies in the product and not the politics.

I am not accusing Jet of unfair labor practices and my interest in the politics of where a product is made is my personal one. I don't know what Jet is doing in China, but I do know what many, many companies do in China, and I prefer not to deal with them when at all possible. You are probably right that this discussion belongs in the OT forum, but I think we are creating a huge problem in our country by giving China an unfair advantage in trading with us. It is a problem that is growing at an exponential rate and will come back to haunt us in the not too distant future.

Taxes or no taxes, you need to take a look at the standard of living in Sweden. They have us beat by a mile, much less a Chinese factory worker. No, its not your job to subsidize the Swedish factory worker. But you said the TORMEK is overpriced and I am trying to point out that the components are top quality, the manufacturing is top quality, the support for the end user is top quality, and that no where in the manufacturing or distribution chain is anyone reaping the huge profits that you and many, many others seem to think they are.


Your post seems to suggest that you are feeling threatened by the presence of a competitor in an area that Tormek has enjoyed essentially no competition.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I specifically closed my post with a suggestion that anyone considering the purchase of a power sharpening system should look at all the available options carefully.

[Chris Barton]

After having read Jeff's posts I had to wonder, why would WMH bring in a tool at the same price to compete with a know industry leader unless they have something to offer that would provide them with a potential advantage? And, I think I have figured it out. If you look at the costs of the accessories (which fit both machines) you will find the answer. On average the Jet accessories are about 20% less expensive than the comprable Tormek accessory. So, my guess is that their marketing strategy is to bring to market a tool at the same price as the Tormek with some appearance upgrades, provide a free base (I was wrong, you don't have to buy an accessory, it comes free as a promotional giveaway with the machine) but, your real market advantage is the accessories! They have clearly thought this out like a chess match. You don't want to get in a price war over the machine itself because nobody wins there and there is a thing in business called "price-based value perception, " i.e. the more you pay for something the better it must be. However, this generally doesn't apply to accessories. So, they have created a win-win situation for themselves. If you are a potential new buyer of the sharpening device you can chose from either but, if you buy the Jet you get a free base and accessories that cost significantly less. Now, if you already own the machine and let's say you are like me and have a Tormek you are still likely to buy accesories, and with Jet's being able to fit either machine and priced 20% less, which are you likely to buy; Jet wins again. Unless the basic machine is a dog then I think Jet will come out on top in this situation. They are taking market share away from Tormek in both fronts.

Jeff, your assertions about some of the technical differences between these machines will have to be borne out by experience. The point about brush replacement may be significant for someone that puts industrial strength "wear and load" on a machine but, in reality most people who will be using these are hobbiest woodworkers that will never likely need to replace brushes. I look forward from hearing from someone that has purchased a Jet to weigh in on this thread.

Also a follow up question Jeff; does Tormek have any styling/technical changes in the pike to planned to address this new competitor?

[Jeff Farris]

Also a follow up question Jeff; does Tormek have any styling/technical changes in the pike to planned to address this new competitor?

What TORMEK has coming up in the near future has been in development for many months, and in some cases years. They are not a company prone to knee jerk reactions. There are some exciting introductions that will be forthcoming this Fall. Neither I nor TORMEK will discuss them on a public forum until they are ready to launch. Though I am at liberty to discuss the new TTS-100 turning tool setter. I will start a new thread on that in the turning forum later today.

[Chris Barton]

Thanks Jeff! Ya know, I just had a feeling that a Tormek change(s) was around the bend after giving this the old MBA 101 treatment. I look forward to your posts.

[John Shuk]

Jet's advantage may be that they are more widely available in retail outlets. The reputation of the Tormek may be what sells Jet's similar looking machine when a person walks into a brick and mortar tool seller.

[Chris Graham]

I read the discussion about the Jet wet Sharpener on this web site when I was trying to decide which machine to purchase, the jet or the Tormek. I ended up buying the Jet as it was a $100 dollars less and the guys at the store where I bought it recommended it. I have used the machine for sharpening a bunch of different tools, I purchased some jet jigs and some tormek jigs as well and can tell you that the jigs from tormek are of better quality. The plastic bushings on the jet straight edge jig kept falling out as I slid it on the tool support so I ended up gluing them in. The other problem that I encountered was that the straight edge jig did'nt align square with the wheel so it has to be squared off every time you sharpen a plane iron or a chisel. The leather honing wheel on this machine runs way off and is made of plastic. Although I haven't used the tormek, if the jigs are any indication I would have to agree with Jeff that this unit is a cheaper made in China version of the tormek that isn't quite up to snuff.

[Chris Barton]

Interesting first post... You'er the first person to find a complaint with the Jet. I will wait to hear more.

[Dave Lehnert]

Working in retail it is my guess that Jet came out at the same retail price so down the road they can offer a 25% to 50% off sale and everyone will jump on it. Because if they came out at ½ the retail people would say “You get what you pay for” How many times have you heard that on here? Don’t think for one second that retailers and Mfg. Don’t know that.

Like I said. It’s just a guess.

[Jeff Wright]

Working in retail it is my guess that Jet came out at the same retail price so down the road they can offer a 25% to 50% off sale and everyone will jump on it. Because if they came out at ½ the retail people would say “You get what you pay for” How many times have you heard that on here? Don’t think for one second that retailers and Mfg. Don’t know that.

Like I said. It’s just a guess.

Am I missing something here . . . I thought the Jet machine was introduced middle of last year at $299 including the fancy base/drawer option.

[Michael Fross]

Am I missing something here . . . I thought the Jet machine was introduced middle of last year at $299 including the fancy base/drawer option.
Yep. Just checked Woodcraft (http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5883) and they have it for $299.99. So, it's 1/3 cheaper than the Tormek....

Michael

[Charles McKinley]

Check the date of the original post: July of last year. Jet dropped the price about 2 weeks after they introduced it. There has not been much talk about it since the original discussion.

I would like to heat how it is holding up noe that people have had time to play with it. Not that it will be on my list anytime soon.

[Dave Lehnert]

Like I said. Introduce it at the same retail then drop the price. Looks to be exactly what happened. It's all a game they play

[Chris Graham]

THe unit that I purchased came with the storage tray, the stone grader, the straight edge jig, honing compound, angle setter, machine cover and both wheels. After I got home I was looking through the flyer that they gave me at the Rockler store and seen that they are selling the Tormek for $379 and they are including the diamond truing stone with the basic package, a $61.99 value. So that brings the price down to about $17 more than the Jet which is not a bad deal. If I had of known at the time I would have probably bought the Tormek.

[Dennis Hatchett]

[quote=Jeff Farris] "What TORMEK has coming up in the near future has been in development for many months, and in some cases years. They are not a company prone to knee jerk reactions. There are some exciting introductions that will be forthcoming this Fall. Neither I nor TORMEK will discuss them on a public forum until they are ready to launch."

That was written quite some time ago so I thought I'd see if there has been any change in the past 6 months.

I'm new here - first post – and I appreciate the great stuff I’ve been reading, but I’m not new to the shop world or the business world. I'm a little amazed that anyone would give Jeff Farris a hard time for doing what he's paid to do and for what he believes is the superior product. I watched his instructional videos before I ever even used a Tormek and I was impressed. He is a great salesman and an articulate teacher who seems genuinely interested in helping people make good decisions. His responses have been very helpful to me even though I'm not sold yet that the Tormek is the better value.

That being said, I think the shop junkies like me are the people with whom Tormek is most concerned because I was prepared to buy a Tormek a few weeks ago. However, the related threads here at Sawmill and the comparison review at the NewWoodworker have given me pause.

I have extensive experience with the Tormek of a friend and I was impressed from the first moment I put a plane iron to the stone. I made a habit of invading his shop once a month or so to shape up the irons, chisels, and knives that needed a bit more than a quick tuning on my Norton waterstones. My friend has been quite patient and used some of my tools in our symbiotic friendship, but I have always wanted to get my own Tormek. I desire the convenience and speed with which it cuts a new bevel and cleans up the occasional drop damage.

There has always been a more immediate need in my shop until a recent commission had TORMEK written all over it. I went to Jeff's website and was prepared to order when I found the red ink announcement that direct purchase of the Tormek via SharpToolsUSA was no longer an option. I was curious and found this thread on Sawmill about the relatively new Jet competitor that entered the market last year. I guess I've been out of the loop for a while and missed all the hubbub.

So after my research over the past week I'm now leaning toward the Jet because of word of mouth and the clever(IMHO) new ideas of variable speed control and water management. The Tormek is quite annoying in its tendency to leave puddles like a little puppy after almost every use. In fact, my buddy leaves a towel near the Tormek for sopping up the puddles. It's not a huge deal but, quite frankly, it smacks of an easily corrected problem that was ignored by a complacent manufacturer and design team who lacked competition. I mean, how difficult is it to redesign a water tray of molded plastic? It seemed pretty easy for Jet who appears to have “borrowed” the rest of their design.

I was also irritated at the very high cost for a well made, but incredibly uncomplicated machine. The high wages of Swedish socialists are of no more interest to me than the job security of Communist Chinese factory employees who are enjoying significant increases in their quality of life. I just want a good tool at a good price. Hey, that’s business, and it's not like we're talkin about good ol' blue collar boys in Flint or Cleveland.

I still appreciate the Tormek but the Jet package at a well known retailer seems to be the better value with a cover and the base with drawers thrown in with the already superior package that includes a stone grader. You don’t even get a stone grader or a cover with the Tormek unless you come up with more money. The only strong advantage I can really give the Tormek after all I’ve read is that it is a proven long-term performer. The Jet reviews all seem to suggest that it has a strong chance to be just as reliable especially in a one-man-shop environment.

So Jeff, convince me that saving $150+ isn't worth it and that the more expensive Tormek is still the better value. Heck, I could buy the Jet, tack on that new little lithium ion Bosch driver I’ve been wanting, and still have enough left over to take my wife to see Happy Feet one more time at the movies.

What I've read so far has not sold me on the Tormek because I think it would take improvements on the current Tormek to bring me back from the dark side. I'm only going to wait a few weeks before I purchase. If you are listening Jeff(I'm still a fan) What's NEW? Is anything on the drawing board and when will it get here?

Thanks, Dennis

[Randy Denby]

Dennis, I'm still glad I bought the Tormek...and your post is spot on in my opinion. Complacency is no longer an option for Tormek .

Reason I'm glad I chose Tormek? If for no other reason, it has a stainless steel shaft. That could be a big issue when Jet owners find their wheels seized to the shaft/nut. I would caution any Jet owners to maintain this periodically.
I'm also partial to induction motors vs direct current.

[Jeff Farris]

Some of this ground has been covered in other posts, but here goes.

It is pretty easy to tell that one of the most critical points in the overall accuracy of the TORMEK system is the fit between the Universal Support and the sleeves that it mounts into (also the horizontal base). Before you decide which one to buy, walk up to both, loosen the locking knobs and observe the adjustment and amount of side to side play in that fit.

The next comparison is a little trickier, because I don't know where you're going to look at the machines, and how well the TORMEK is going to be maintained. Take the stone grader (either side), turn both machines on and really bear down on the stone. Even with the Jet "torque adjuster" maxed out, you can stall the Jet long before you can stall the TORMEK, if the TORMEK drive wheel has been properly maintained --- which means cleaning it with a piece of 80 grit sandpaper. If you can stall the TORMEK, get the salesman to find a scrap of 80 grit, take the honing wheel off, turn the machine on and rough up the surface of the drive wheel. I weigh around 250, and I can lean a good 75 to 80 percent of my weight against the TORMEK without stalling it out. The Jet "torque adjuster" is there because the material that they use in the tire does not allow the motor to "bite" into the tire like the TORMEK wheel does, so they force the motor into the drive wheel, which seems to me that it might not lead to drive wheel longevity.

As for variable speed, if you mount two identical tools into jigs, turn the Jet up to the maximum speed of 150rpm, and apply what TORMEK considers a normal working load to the tools, the Jet will be running slower than the TORMEK. We did it using a mechanical arm to apply exactly the same load to both machines. It may run 150 with no load, but the speed drops dramatically with load applied.

If there is one thing that I get tired of with a TORMEK after doing a full day's worth of demonstrating, it is turning the machine around to use the honing wheel. Hey, its not a big deal, but it does get heavy after the 40th demo of the day. Could you talk me into bolting another 5 - 8 pounds of steel to the bottom and filling it with jigs and a stone grader? Uh, no. Sorry, I don't want a 4 drawer base on my machine, even if it is free. Not only is the weight an issue, but one of the most common reasons for people to have problems with their TORMEK is that they have it on too high a work surface. The top of your TORMEK frame should be just about the height of your navel. For an average guy of 5-10 or 5-11, that means his table height should be about 27 inches. Most work surfaces are 36 or so. Now, on a Jet with the 4 drawer base, the problem just got about 3 inches worse.

As for the mess, yes the Jet does catch a little more of the dripping water than a TORMEK -- a little more, but not all. Put a cafeteria tray under either one, and you've got the problem under control. On top of the machine, Jet's design leaves quite a bit to be desired. Look at the square cut outs in the handle and grooves in and around the water deflectors. There are just one heck of a lot of places for water, steel, and spent abrasive to collect.

To summarize, the difference between 299 and 399 is manufacturing tolerance, motor quality, drive wheel quality, and grind stone quality (very hard to quantify or explain, but it is there if you have used both).

What's new at TORMEK? We have a couple of very exciting new products that we are introducing. One is targeted at the woodturning market, but the other is a great improvement for everyone.

TORMEK's website uses frames, so links don't work right. Go to http://www.tormek.us In the menu on the left side of the page go to the last item which is "News". There you will find complete details on the new TT-50 truing tool. If you hit the "2006" button in "News" it will show you the details on the TTS-100 turning tool setter. Here are the highlights of each.

The TT-50 truing tool is fed across the grindstone by a screw, instead of by hand (like the ADV-50D). This makes it much easier to get a consistent surface on the grindstone. It also takes advantage of the micro-adjust feature of the Universal Support, allowing you to very carefully determine how much you are going to cut off your grindstone. It sets up faster than the ADV-50D, is easier to use, gives more consistent results, and at least for the next few weeks, costs exactly the same. For those of you who already have the ADV-50D, there is an upgrade version (TT-50U) which has everything that the TT-50 has, except the diamond tip. It is a 3 minute project to take the tip out of your ADV-50D and put it in your new TT-50U. For those who have or are considering the Jet sharpener, unfortunately the TT-50 will not work with the Jet. They changed the spacing between the inside edge of the grindstone and the sleeves for the Universal Support. The TT-50 was already designed and in patent process when the Jet was introduced, so please don't start saying that we purposely designed it not to work with the Jet.

The TTS-100 turning tool setter tackles the issue of resetting turning tools exactly the same so that you can sharpen them quickly, removing the least possible amount of steel, and get back to the lathe with a tool that cuts exactly the same as it did last time your sharpened it. It gives you the protrusion stops, jig settings, and bevel angle settings you need for a medium backgrind bowl gouge, a long backgrind bowl gouge, a fingernail grind spindle gouge, a straight grind skew and a radius grind skew. The shapes are patterned after the tools I have been demonstrating with for the last 10 years, so if you have watched me turn at a show, those are the shapes you'll get from the TTS-100.


EDIT Forgot to mention another new feature on the machine. The horizontal base is now cast and machined, instead of extruded. It has a tighter tolerance fit with the Universal Support. The shape is relieved next to the handle, which minimizes a former pinch point. And it has locks on both legs (which was introduced on the late model extruded bases). It is available as an upgrade to older machines for around 20 dollars.

[Jeff Farris]

...Complacency is no longer an option for Tormek .
....

It never was an option. We have continuously upgraded and improved the system for the last 28 years.

[Dennis Hatchett]

Dennis, I'm still glad I bought the Tormek...and your post is spot on in my opinion. Complacency is no longer an option for Tormek .

Reason I'm glad I chose Tormek? If for no other reason, it has a stainless steel shaft. That could be a big issue when Jet owners find their wheels seized to the shaft/nut. I would caution any Jet owners to maintain this periodically.
I'm also partial to induction motors vs direct current.

Good points Randy. Very few people will ever regret a Tormek purchase. It's obviously a great machine that is a proven performer with a loyal clientele. Let's say the Tormek is a better machine for those reasons you mention - induction motor and a stainless shaft. I can't really see those features making a real world difference to a cost-conscious consumer with a long wish list of tools yet to be bought. (Please, no one give me "the worst tool I ever bought was the one..." line. I think we can agree that the Jet doesn't appear to fit in that proverb.)

I think the Tormek advantage is arguable at best and the jury will be out for a few years. But I'm not sure I want to pay 30% more for the marginally superior Tormek vs. a Jet that improves on a couple of the Tormek's issues. If I weren't on a budget I'd just buy both, try them for a while, and sell the weaker one on ebay. Now there's an idea.:D

[Bob Wingard]

It is pretty easy to tell that one of the most critical points in the overall accuracy of the TORMEK system is the fit between the Universal Support and the sleeves that it mounts into (also the horizontal base). Before you decide which one to buy, walk up to both, loosen the locking knobs and observe the adjustment and amount of side to side play in that fit.

Not a critical point, in my estimation .. .. once the support is locked-down, the "fit" is transparent to both tool and user.

The next comparison is a little trickier, because I don't know where you're going to look at the machines, and how well the TORMEK is going to be maintained. Take the stone grader (either side), turn both machines on and really bear down on the stone. Even with the Jet "torque adjuster" maxed out, you can stall the Jet long before you can stall the TORMEK, if the TORMEK drive wheel has been properly maintained --- which means cleaning it with a piece of 80 grit sandpaper. If you can stall the TORMEK, get the salesman to find a scrap of 80 grit, take the honing wheel off, turn the machine on and rough up the surface of the drive wheel. I weigh around 250, and I can lean a good 75 to 80 percent of my weight against the TORMEK without stalling it out. The Jet "torque adjuster" is there because the material that they use in the tire does not allow the motor to "bite" into the tire like the TORMEK wheel does, so they force the motor into the drive wheel, which seems to me that it might not lead to drive wheel longevity.

SO .. .. the Tormek has a greater amount of excessive torque than the JET ?? ?? A realistic test would be to see if either machine strains or stall under the load of a REAL sharpening scenario.

As for variable speed, if you mount two identical tools into jigs, turn the Jet up to the maximum speed of 150rpm, and apply what TORMEK considers a normal working load to the tools, the Jet will be running slower than the TORMEK. We did it using a mechanical arm to apply exactly the same load to both machines. It may run 150 with no load, but the speed drops dramatically with load applied.

JET and Tormek are both sold as "slow speed wet sharpeners" .. .. has anyone ever determined exactly what speed is IDEAL for sharpening ?? ?? JET gives you a range to play with .. Tormek does not .. .. I still see this as a small plus for JET.

If there is one thing that I get tired of with a TORMEK after doing a full day's worth of demonstrating, it is turning the machine around to use the honing wheel. Hey, its not a big deal, but it does get heavy after the 40th demo of the day. Could you talk me into bolting another 5 - 8 pounds of steel to the bottom and filling it with jigs and a stone grader? Uh, no. Sorry, I don't want a 4 drawer base on my machine, even if it is free. Not only is the weight an issue, but one of the most common reasons for people to have problems with their TORMEK is that they have it on too high a work surface. The top of your TORMEK frame should be just about the height of your navel. For an average guy of 5-10 or 5-11, that means his table height should be about 27 inches. Most work surfaces are 36 or so. Now, on a Jet with the 4 drawer base, the problem just got about 3 inches worse.

I might think this would possibly be of concern only to one who is, in fact, demonstrating a JET 40 times a day !! !! To the average Joe using this machine once in a while, I see no problem.

To summarize, the difference between 299 and 399 is manufacturing tolerance, motor quality, drive wheel quality, and grind stone quality (very hard to quantify or explain, but it is there if you have used both).

Now you're staring to play a little dirty .. .. you imply with no proof whatsoever that the JET is inferior by reason of poor manufacturing tolerance .. .. you have established that the sockets of the JET are of a different size .. .. not that they have poor manufacturing tolerances .. ..their tolerances might possibly be better than Tormek's .. .. JUST A DIFFERENT SIZE. As to motor quality .. .. again, DIFFERENT .. not BETTER .. there is no proof offered that JET's motor is inferior, yet you imply that it is. Drive wheel quality .. .. again, DIFFERENT .. NOT BETTER !! !! !! if I ever got something jammed in a sharpened, I think I'd rather stall it out than force it through, possibly damaging the machine, jig, or tool !! !! Grindstone quality .. ..well, by now you get my point .. DIFFERENT .. NOT BETTER !! !!

For the record .. I own a Tormek .. also for the record .. after reviewing all of the competing features of both units, I'd take the JET in a minute and save the extra $100 + .. .. Woodcraft occasionally has 10%-15% off sales making it even more attractive.

[Michael Gibbons]

The only way I know of producing something at a lower cost is to cheapen the product. Why did Jet copy the Tormek anyways? Couldn't they come up with something completely new and original? The Jet looks so much like the Tormek, it's almost embarrasing. And I don't want to hear about the drawers or the water tray because those aren't that important to the function of the grinder, What advantages does the Jet possess?

[Jeff Farris]

Not a critical point, in my estimation .. .. once the support is locked-down, the "fit" is transparent to both tool and user.

My point was, Bob, that if the Universal Support rocks right and left in the sleeves, it will not necessarily lock with the arm parallel to the grindstone.



... A realistic test would be to see if either machine strains or stall under the load of a REAL sharpening scenario.

Which was addressed in my next paragraph, where equal, working loads were applied and the Jet slowed down to less than the speed of the TORMEK.


.. .. has anyone ever determined exactly what speed is IDEAL for sharpening ?? ??

Yes, we have. 90 rpm. I don't mean to sound flip, but Torgny has tested this issue extensively for years. Given stone composition and size, 90 rpm is ideal for the TORMEK. Does Jet's variable really give you a "choice" if it slows down slower than the fixed speed TORMEK once load is applied?




I might think this would possibly be of concern only to one who is, in fact, demonstrating a JET 40 times a day !! !! To the average Joe using this machine once in a while, I see no problem.

You might not see a problem, others might. And, I was trying to interject a little levity into the discussion. I don't think one would really have to pick the machine up 40 times a day to get tired of an extra 8 or 9 pounds.



Now you're staring to play a little dirty .. .. you imply with no proof whatsoever that the JET is inferior by reason of poor manufacturing tolerance .. ..you have established that the sockets of the JET are of a different size .. .. not that they have poor manufacturing tolerances .. ..their tolerances might possibly be better than Tormek's .. .. JUST A DIFFERENT SIZE.

The sleeve to universal support fit is sloppy. I consider that a manufaturing tolerance. If you have a better term for it, I will be glad to use it. We also put together the support extension that is supposed to extend in front of the honing wheel. Once it was mounted to the universal support, the support would no longer fit into the horizontal base.


As to motor quality .. .. again, DIFFERENT .. not BETTER .. there is no proof offered that JET's motor is inferior, yet you imply that it is. Drive wheel quality .. .. again, DIFFERENT .. NOT BETTER !! !! !! if I ever got something jammed in a sharpened, I think I'd rather stall it out than force it through, possibly damaging the machine, jig, or tool !! !!

I'll apologize for not stating the motor issue more correctly. My personal preference for most equipment is an induction motor over a DC motor, but you're right that my claim of motor superiority is not quantifiable. I will not yield on the issue of the drive wheel. Their wheel just does not work as well as ours. I have tried it in hands on use and Torgny has tested it extensively in the laboratory. As for jamming things, don't worry. The nut will pop loose the instant anything jams in a TORMEK (don't ask me how I know this. :rolleyes: ).

[Art Mann]

I wonder what will happen when the Grizzly guy notices the price and simplicity of these machines!

[Gary Keedwell]

After years of googling the Tormek, I finally pulled the trigger yesterday at the Woodworks Show in West Springfield, Ma......The demonstrator said it was only his second show and he did good, Jeff. He answered all my questions and showed me how to sharpen a chisel. My big concern was putting on the secondary bevel..put he showed me and put my mind to rest.
I also purchased the Cabinet Maker's Accessory Kit, (CMK-104) and received the $60 off for the Show discount. I really did not seriously think of getting the Jet because I feel that "why get an imitation when I can get the original" I didn't want to always wonder if saving a few bucks was worth the aggravation.

Can't show any pictures because they are going to ship it to my house for FREE.

Gary K.

[Matt Meiser]

I wonder what will happen when the Grizzly guy notices the price and simplicity of these machines!

I was suprised it wasn't in this years catalog.

[Chris Graham]

As I stated in my earlier post, I purchased the jet sharpener and although it does a decent job sharpening my tools I do believe that it is a cheaper version of the Tormek. I work as a contractor and own all kinds of tools, I can compare these sharpeners just like any other tools, I can buy a quality Dewalt or Milwaukee drill for $200 or I can buy a similiar Black and decker drill for $100 but it won't be nearly as good a drill. I knew when I bought the sharpener that I should'nt have shopped on price alone, but the salesman talked me into it and now I am stuck with a decent sharpener instead of an excellent sharpener.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

As I stated in my earlier post, I purchased the jet sharpener and although it does a decent job sharpening my tools I do believe that it is a cheaper version of the Tormek. I work as a contractor and own all kinds of tools, I can compare these sharpeners just like any other tools, I can buy a quality Dewalt or Milwaukee drill for $200 or I can buy a similiar Black and decker drill for $100 but it won't be nearly as good a drill. I knew when I bought the sharpener that I should'nt have shopped on price alone, but the salesman talked me into it and now I am stuck with a decent sharpener instead of an excellent sharpener.
Care to provide details to support your assessment?

[Chris Graham]

Hey Rob,

I am basing my assessment on my view of the Jet sharpener. I will say that I have never used the Tormek, but that any reviews or posts that I have read about it all state that it is a quality machine. I did purchase some of the Tormek jigs as well as some made by Jet, and can tell you that the Tormek jigs are better. The straight edge jig that came with the sharpener has plastic bushings that slide on the universal support and these were not even attached the the jig, I had to glue them in place. Also the straight edge jig does quite line up square to the wheel so I have to adjust the tool I am sharpening to end up with a square edge, a time consuming process at best. I thought that maybe I didn't dress the wheel properly and that was the problem, but i checked the distance between the universal support and the stone with some feeler gauges and it was good so it is obviously the jig itself. The one otherthing that I consider to be of poor quality is the plastic drive wheel, it wobbles all over the place which in turn causes the leather honing wheel to wobble all over. I would think that Jet could at least manufacture these components to turn relatively true but they don't, so in my opinion the quality is lacking. I will say that the water collection on this machine works great and the variable speed motor is a nice feature that I use every time I am sharpening a tool.

I feel that Jet has cut a few corners in the quality department based on my experience with the machine. I can not do a direct comparison with the Tormek because I don't have access to one. If I were going to buy a sharpener again I think that I would take a closer look at the Tormek and see how it operates and the quality of the machine. I may have saved a $100 but I am going to spend more than that in time just squaring up tools with the jet jig so that they are sharpened properly.