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Ken Garlock
07-29-2006, 11:00 AM
I ran into an interesting but also disgusting article on HOAs (http://realestate.msn.com/buying/Articlenewhome.aspx?cp-documentid=653570&GT1=8384). It makes you want to go to meeting toting an AK-47.:(

It is oh so nice to live in the country.:) :rolleyes:

Chuck Wintle
07-29-2006, 11:17 AM
Whatever happened to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? :(

Dennis Peacock
07-29-2006, 11:24 AM
That's so stupid. Why in the world would ANYONE WANT to live in a HOA type housing area? Whatever happened to American Freedom, My home is My castle, Safety and Sanctuary at Home, Love and friendship around my Home, and just down right neighborly environment around the home.???

So glad I live in the country and I still live in the Free U.S.A...!!!!!!

Pete Simmons
07-29-2006, 11:36 AM
I live in a beautiful controlled community. Golf course in back, pool in front. I have a small shop and no problems using it. I am cautious about noise but no problems. Yes the list is long of what I can not do (lights, doors, trucks, paint, car parking, swing sets/hoops and more) but I do not want these items.

What I can do is throw some wood on my golf cart, drive over to my friends house who has a planner and work on it. And yes he is also in the same HOA.

Also if some jerk throws trash out on the road side in the evening by 10:00 the next day it is gone.

Most of us who live here do not call it an HOA we call it Paradise!

Mark Pruitt
07-29-2006, 11:41 AM
There should be a happy medium to issues like this, but unfortunately like so many other aspects of life, there are extremists on both sides who make life hell for the rest of us. I don't think I should have to put up with a neighbor playing music loudly enough that I can hear it in my living room. I also don't like seeing cars parked on the street--I lived with that at my former residence and it posed an inconvenience for everyone, yet most people didn't care. (In addition to the inconvenience, you inevitably have some jerk that parks a POS in front of his house, ruining the overall apparance of the neighborhood.)

OTOH, limits should be set within reason. Imposing the kinds of regulations discussed in the news article is pure, utter disrespect for persons' individuality. We were not made with cookie cutters. Fining a woman $25 for walking her dog because she is physically incapable of carrying it is unforgiveable. I can only hope that the people who harrased that poor lady wind up in a worse state and are dealt with in the same manner they chose to deal with that lady.

We have a set of covenants in our neighborhood, and I was smart enough to inquire about them and obtain a copy before we closed on our house. They are within reason, and are in fact rather loosely enforced. But, we do not have a HOA yet. The builder should be completing the last house within a couple months. We'll see what happens then. Hopefully we will not see the kind of crap that the article was talking about.

Mark

Ken Fitzgerald
07-29-2006, 12:44 PM
An HOA is a 2 edged sword!

If you have good neighbors you really don't need it.

If you don't have good neighbors, it can resolve problems without you personally having to get involved.


An apartment complex (2 duplexes facing each other) across the street from my house sold recently. New owner put all the old tenants out and did some superficial fix up. He painted the outside and inside and replaced carpeting. New tenants installed......Now the grass on the lawn is unmowed.....the weeds far exceed and have overgrown the grass...the new tenants are using the driveway/parking lot as a storage area for everything from coolers to blowup swimming pools. Parties late at night with a lot of 5 minute drop ins....makes me wonder what they might be selling over there.....I wished we had a HOA. The alternative is for me to get personally involved.:(

Mike Henderson
07-29-2006, 12:57 PM
I've lived in communities with an HOA and without an HOA. I'll take the HOA any time. The reason for deed restrictions is to protect your investment in your home.

Without deed restrictions and an HOA, if my neighbor is doing something that affects the value of my property, I have little recourse if they are not volating the law. I could ask them to change it, but we may have different opinions about the "offense". With deed restrictions, I can point to the deed restriction that bans the offense and tell my neignbor, "If you wanted to do that, why did you buy in here where it it prohibited?" I also have an enforcement mechanism.

Common sense should always prevail, of course, but when the value of your property is at stake, it's good to have the deed restrictions.

Mike

Tony Falotico
07-29-2006, 12:59 PM
This is what's wonderful about life and people,


Some like living in 'Paradise' where things are monitored and controlled, where an HOA takes care of the little annoyances for you, the grass is always green and birds always sing.

Some (including me) like to be where you can do whatever you like on your own property, you can tow an old car home to re-build, work in your shop, leave your toys laying out in the yard without anyone hassling you.


Bottom line is, neither of us is right, neither of us is wrong. To each is own. I'm happy that we live in a society where we have the choice to live like we want and still cohabitate in peace. :D :D

Jason Roehl
07-29-2006, 12:59 PM
The biggest problem as I see it with HOAs is the concept of "your property's appearance affects my property values". It's an unfortunate fact of life in this country. If someone wants to park their rusty, dented, oil-burning and leaking, bald-tired car on or in front of their property, I believe they should be allowed to do so, providing they are otherwise following the law. What I think of how it looks is irrelevant. If someone wants to paint their house bright purple with fluorescent green polka dots, more power to them. I don't have to look. If someone likes to have a "freedom lawn", well, so be it, the grass has a right to grow, too. Why can farmers let fields go fallow and grow hay that only gets mowed 3-4 times per year, but a city-dwelling homeowner can't? Because someone doesn't want to look at it?

I would also assert that if someone else's property appearance negatively affects your property values, then your property is over-valued in the first place.

I guess part of what it boils down to, is that none of us own our land. It's all rented. And if you don't believe me, try not paying your property taxes for a while.

You won't find me buying into an HOA neighborhood anytime soon...unless I'm the founding Naz...uh...member...:D

tod evans
07-29-2006, 1:05 PM
funny i`ve never heard of one here in the sticks......but i`ve seen quite a few urban areas that could benifit from one. i see both sides to this issue and have chosen to live in the sticks.....02 tod

skip coyne
07-29-2006, 1:17 PM
no way I could ever live in one .nor would I want to .

I do find it funny when those who choose to live in one have it turn around and bite them in the rear . see it all the time around here

heres a recent one :


TAMPA, Fla. -- The wife of a Tampa solider serving in Iraq is locked in an emotional dispute with her homeowner's association that wants her to remove a "Support Our Troops" sign from the front yard.



to antisecptic a life to fit my style ;)

Mike Henderson
07-29-2006, 1:29 PM
The biggest problem as I see it with HOAs is the concept of "your property's appearance affects my property values". It's an unfortunate fact of life in this country. If someone wants to park their rusty, dented, oil-burning and leaking, bald-tired car on or in front of their property, I believe they should be allowed to do so, providing they are otherwise following the law. What I think of how it looks is irrelevant. If someone wants to paint their house bright purple with fluorescent green polka dots, more power to them. I don't have to look. If someone likes to have a "freedom lawn", well, so be it, the grass has a right to grow, too. Why can farmers let fields go fallow and grow hay that only gets mowed 3-4 times per year, but a city-dwelling homeowner can't? Because someone doesn't want to look at it?

I would also assert that if someone else's property appearance negatively affects your property values, then your property is over-valued in the first place.

If your neighbor does the things you describe, it does affect your property value. If you decide to sell, you're going to get less money for your property because of your neighbor's house. Home owners recognize this fact and enter into a contract which goes with the house (called deed restrictions). It is an agreement between the owners of the homes to do and not do certain things which they believe will enhance the value of the property in the community.

People who buy in a deed restricted community agree to accept these restrictions (by making the purchase). If they do not wish to be restricted, they should purchase in a non-deed restricted community.

Mike

Mark Pruitt
07-29-2006, 2:12 PM
People who buy in a deed restricted community agree to accept these restrictions (by making the purchase). If they do not wish to be restricted, they should purchase in a non-deed restricted community.

Mike
Very true, but HOAs that become nit-picky about the types of things discussed in the article Ken posted have crossed a line. The fact that they are even able and willing to obsess about such things shows that they have way way too much time on their hands. There is a difference between expecting people to be responsible citizens and demanding that they dot their i's and cross their t's all the same. There needs to be a happy medium.

I guess a good analogy would be, e.g. if SMC required of all its members that we create all M&T joints on our projects the same way. "It must be done with hand and chisel." "Routers are prohibited." Can you imagine such?:eek: But somewhere there is a "purist" who thinks just like that, and believes that if you do it any other way you are wrong, regardless of the fact that your M&T will withstand as much abuse as his.

Why do people inflict so much unnecessary pain on each other? Live and let live.

Mark

Ken Fitzgerald
07-29-2006, 2:23 PM
Jason,

1st.........I'd be one of the first to stand up and defend someone's civil liberties. The recent case back east involving the right of eminent domain where somebody's home was being taken away so a developer could come in and build a mall (IIRC0) or maybe it was an industrial complex....got my dander up.

That being said........the people who enter into these HOAs do so with knowledge BEFORE they buy or they should know about it BEFORE they buy in an area. If you do so, then IMHO you don't have any right to complain, whine or otherwise decide you want to change it after the fact. It's a business contract.......if contract's are no good........then civil law is no good......then society and the government as we know it is no good and society will fail.

The value of property is what the market will bear......regardless of what you and I "believe or think" it's worth.....regardless of what the tax people assess the property at......it's what the market will bear at the time you make it available for sale.......If your neighbor allows his property to become a run down eyesore it will have a direct effect on the market value of every home in the neighborhood.

I don't belong to an HOA for the same reason you don't. At the same time I personally feel a certain responsibility to myself, my family and my neighbors to maintain my property in a manner that doesn't detract from the nighborhood.

For the record, I've been know to help my neighbors in many ways....I collect their mail when they are on vacation....water their lawns.....have mowed their lawns....collected the paper.......shoveled the 24" of snow from their driveways so they could drive to their carport when they arrived home from a Christmas vacation visiting their children and families in Boise....I've had and still have some extremely good neighbors. They return the favors in similar manners. I've helped paint their homes, build storage sheds, finish concrete etc. Again.....they've helped me and my family in similar manners..

At the same time....some HOAs act as "Neighborhood Nazis" as previously mentioned and I don't care for that either.

In short.........if neighbors are reasonable....there is no need for HOAs.....

Bob Childress
07-29-2006, 2:34 PM
I would also assert that if someone else's property appearance negatively affects your property values, then your property is over-valued in the first place.

Jason, you sound to me like a conservative sort of guy who believes in American values and freedom. Me too. With that set of beliefs, however, also comes support of the free-market system. By definition, a property can never be over-valued or under-valued (except perhaps by the tax authority). The market sets the value. Period. A property is worth what someone will pay for it. The fact is, if my neighbor has a "beater" on blocks in front of his house, the market will not pay as much for my property as they would if the beater wasn't there. Covenants and restrictions help keep values stable. It's a choice to buy in an HOA community or not.

That being said, there are HOAs and HOAs. I lived in one of the Arizona ones for several years (motto: Don't breathe unless we tell you to.) and agree that it was overly repressive. But here in South carolina we have one that is reasonable, friendly, and accomodating while still keeping our property values stable.

Lee DeRaud
07-29-2006, 2:48 PM
Regarding the effect of neighborhood appearance on property values: yes, it matters, although I suspect the actual effect is much smaller than usually assumed.

That said, I'd rather live around people who care less about how their houses perform as investments and more about how they perform as homes.

Mike Henderson
07-29-2006, 2:55 PM
Remember that the HOA is us. By that, I mean that the people who are controlled by the HOA elect the board members. If the majority of the people believe that the board is being excessively strict, they can vote the members out at the next election. It's just like the national and local political elections.

When you hear horror stories of HOAs, you have to take them with a grain of salt. If things really were that terrible, there would be a recall of the board members - the owners would not even wait until the next election. In my experience, these stories often are about one person who wants to do something that is prohibited and just won't back down.

For example, I have to wonder about the story about the lady who couldn't carry her dog in the lobby. There are laws that prohibit discrimination in housing based on disabilities - and these laws supersede things like deed restrictions. You can't, for example, prohibit a wheelchair ramp on the front of the house through deed restrictions. If that lady in the story really had a disability that prevented her from carrying her dog, all she had to do is present a certificate from her doctor attesting to that fact. Note that she didn't sue and is now living in another place. It's possible that she really didn't have a disability but just didn't want to carry her dog. But that doesn't make a good story.

Mike

Ken Salisbury
07-30-2006, 2:58 PM
We have a similiar problem state-wide in Alabama. It is now required if you put your washing machine on your porch - it must be the back porch. No front porch washing machines allowed.


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/smiley2.gif

Chuck Wintle
07-30-2006, 3:07 PM
Regarding the effect of neighborhood appearance on property values: yes, it matters, although I suspect the actual effect is much smaller than usually assumed.

That said, I'd rather live around people who care less about how their houses perform as investments and more about how they perform as homes.
Excellent point! :D

Mark Rios
07-30-2006, 3:32 PM
We have a similiar problem state-wide in Alabama. It is now required if you put your washing machine on your porch - it must be the back porch. No front porch washing machines allowed.


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/smiley2.gif
ROFL


What if you keep the washer in the crate/box on the front porch? And maybe put a plant on it? Or a beer keg?


:D :D :D

skip coyne
07-30-2006, 3:39 PM
ROFL


What if you keep the washer in the crate/box on the front porch? And maybe put a plant on it? Or a beer keg?


:D :D :D
crate ?

box ?

they dont sell NEW appliances in 'bama has to be at least 10 years old to be sold within the state :D

Frank Fusco
07-30-2006, 5:07 PM
As we see in the news everyday, some people prefer to live in a highly regulated and controlled society. Many of these HOA rules are just plain sick. I live in a semi-rural environment. My garage and shop doors are open. If I want to take a whiz in the yard I do. There was a TV show at one time about night monsters that did terrible things to people who violated their HOA rules. But then, some rules can prevent uninvited strangers, like the two below.

Mark Rios
07-30-2006, 5:30 PM
As we see in the news everyday, some people prefer to live in a highly regulated and controlled society. Many of these HOA rules are just plain sick. I live in a semi-rural environment. My garage and shop doors are open. If I want to take a whiz in the yard I do. There was a TV show at one time about night monsters that did terrible things to people who violated their HOA rules. But then, some rules can prevent uninvited strangers, like the two below.



Frank, I'm sorry to have to tell you that those animals in your post are unauthorized pets pursuant to the by-laws of the local HOA. Since they let you take their picture they must trust you and therefore be your pets. You will shortly be receiving a notice of what your fine will be and whom you need to notify when your house actually goes on the market so that we can monitor your leaving the neighborhood due to your lack of appreciation of the sanctity of our beloved CC&R's.


Oh, and I have just been handed a note that asks that you remove and take all of the foliage that your pets like to eat as well. We wouldn't want any other unauthorized pets to be tempted to infiltrate our sanctuary.

Good day.

Robert Mickley
07-30-2006, 5:52 PM
Why do you need an HOA? I though that what zoning laws where for?

Take the next township north of me. If you live ther you better darn well keep the place cleaned up and not have any trash out or dead beat cars sitting around. On the same hand there are no HOA's in that township and its one of the richest in the county. The reason there are no? HOA's Theres a township ordaince forbidding them. and its never been challenged. The simply are not needed. If your local government does its job they aren't needed.

Now my township isn't zoned, as a result there are a few places around that could be cleaned up but they are few. By the same token the board of trustees has tried to get zoning in several times and keeps getting voted down. Folks here don't want it.

Sooner or later it's going to get crammed down our throats, the city folks keep moving out here and at the rate we are going in 7 to 10 years we will be outnumbered.

Michael Stafford
07-30-2006, 5:58 PM
We have a similiar problem state-wide in Alabama. It is now required if you put your washing machine on your porch - it must be the back porch. No front porch washing machines allowed.


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/smiley2.gif


Well, we don't have much trouble with washing machines around here. Our biggest problem is with people putting upholstered furniture on the front porch. It is so pervasive that cities have had to pass ordinances forbidding putting the duct taped lazy boy on the front porch....Only in the best neighborhoods.... Folks sitting in their house furniture on the porch make easy targets for drive byes....:p :eek: :D

Frank Fusco
07-30-2006, 6:27 PM
Frank, I'm sorry to have to tell you that those animals in your post are unauthorized pets pursuant to the by-laws of the local HOA. Since they let you take their picture they must trust you and therefore be your pets. You will shortly be receiving a notice of what your fine will be and whom you need to notify when your house actually goes on the market so that we can monitor your leaving the neighborhood due to your lack of appreciation of the sanctity of our beloved CC&R's.


Oh, and I have just been handed a note that asks that you remove and take all of the foliage that your pets like to eat as well. We wouldn't want any other unauthorized pets to be tempted to infiltrate our sanctuary.

Good day.



Good for a chuckle. I'm still waiting for a bear to come through. Let the HOA Nazis pet that pet. ;) :D :)

Ned Bulken
07-30-2006, 6:37 PM
I'm out in the semi-country, close enough to the city for a halfway decent commute, but in a 'neighborhood'. They have a lakeshore owners association which maintains a small strip of land at the end of the street, one day they came knocking Demanding several years of 'back dues'. I looked at her and said, have you Ever seen us down at the lake? ' well , NO, but you live here so you Owe the money. I told her that if I wanted to use the lake, I'd go to the community park where at least the people were friendly (and it is free) and to go away as she wasn't getting any money out of us that day . She threatened me with 'if we catch you down there we'll call the sheriff'. I laughed in her face and told her to get out or I was calling them first. Haven't seen her since.
When we move, I'm aiming for either way out in the country rural or smack dab downtown Loft living, nothing in between.

Mark Rios
07-30-2006, 7:13 PM
I'm out in the semi-country, close enough to the city for a halfway decent commute, but in a 'neighborhood'. They have a lakeshore owners association which maintains a small strip of land at the end of the street, one day they came knocking Demanding several years of 'back dues'. I looked at her and said, have you Ever seen us down at the lake? ' well , NO, but you live here so you Owe the money. I told her that if I wanted to use the lake, I'd go to the community park where at least the people were friendly (and it is free) and to go away as she wasn't getting any money out of us that day . She threatened me with 'if we catch you down there we'll call the sheriff'. I laughed in her face and told her to get out or I was calling them first. Haven't seen her since.
When we move, I'm aiming for either way out in the country rural or smack dab downtown Loft living, nothing in between.


Ned, you should plan in some time the day before you move and spend it down at the "Special, Golden, Diamond, Precious Lake Front Resort". If someone tells you that you have to leave don't argue, just ask for the person in charge and offer to buy him/her a soda, beer, sandwich, whatever. Then tell them now that you've finally been down there, you just might think about joining. :D :D :D :D

JayStPeter
07-31-2006, 10:52 AM
That said, I'd rather live around people who care less about how their houses perform as investments and more about how they perform as homes.

For many of us, you have to tread the fine line there. It's not like I work for IBM in the '60s and I'll work there until I retire. I'd rather move than have a 2hr. commute. So, I make my house my home. But, I do have to think about the investment aspect of each thing I do. Who knows ... in a couple years when my project ends my company may not have anything else for me. I might wind up having to move on, then I'll care very much how my home performs as an investment. Nothing like a couple corporate takeovers in your past to make you live like you might not have a job next month.

Jeffrey Makiel
07-31-2006, 2:35 PM
I'm not going to bloviate as to whether a HOA is a good thing or not because I see the positive and the very potentially negative sides of having one in our current times.

However, I will say that HOAs didn't exist (at least to any degree I'm aware of) forty years ago. Local zoning was adequate. I attribute this to:

1. A house was not considered an investment; it was considered a home. Modern examples are house flipping, minimal upgrades that maximize return-on-investment, and folks moving into and out of a community as soon as the kids are out of school.

2. Forty years ago, folks generally seemed more considerate to each other and were more community minded. Everybody knew each other even if personalities clashed, and folks took personal responsibility of their homes and family.

3. Parents do not teach their children responsibility around the house. I can't remember the last time I saw a teenager cut the lawn, pull weeds, coat the driveway, clean the gutters, wash the windows, etc. Back in my day, me and my bothers did all these things, as well as all my friends, plus we had to do things that are not required on most maintenance free homes today. It wasn't bad. In fact, it reinforced us as a family. However, a HOA will do these things for you so you don't have to exert yourself or the precious kids, and free up time for more soccer practice.

Unfortunately, I think HOAs are here to stay. It's not a question of whether they should be allowed. It's a question of why they are becoming more popular is what concerns me.

-Jeff

Lee DeRaud
07-31-2006, 4:06 PM
I can't remember the last time I saw a teenager cut the lawn, pull weeds, coat the driveway, clean the gutters, wash the windows, etc. Back in my day, me and my bothers did all these things, as well as all my friends, plus we had to do things that are not required on most maintenance free homes today. It wasn't bad. In fact, it reinforced us as a family. However, a HOA will do these things for you so you don't have to exert yourself or the precious kids, and free up time for more soccer practice.Dunno how it works where you are, but I've never heard of an HOA that performed maintenance on individual houses. Common areas like green-belts, sure, but not the homes of its members.

Andy Fox
07-31-2006, 4:21 PM
The HOA in the subdivision I live in has plenty of restrictions.... no sheds, house colors, 6' max fence height, etc. The HOA had an attorney review the CC&R documents, and he determined that they were not enforceable--I guess mainly because an adequate mechanism for enforcement wasn't specified, and different people signed different documents, or no documents at all. :eek: The three tract builders in our neighborhood use these same documents everywhere they build. The deed restrictions were more of a smoke and mirrors attempt to sell houses than a real set of enforceable covenants.

The no sheds rule is supposed to prevent ugly, deteriorating sheds from blighting the landscape. I'm suspicious of the builders' motive behind the no sheds restriction, as they also build considerably more expensive houses with larger garages and more storage space. Why would they want to let the homeowner build or buy storage square footage when they could profit from a future upgrade? :mad:

Either that, or they preferred cluttered garages storing everything that could/should be in shed, with the result being streets and driveways littered with cars because there's no room to park them in the garage. And, the garages are all attached, so gasoline/lawn mower storage is a fire, cancer, and birth defects risk! :mad: I want my property values protected, but I'm not willing to gain a few thousand dollars (or even a few million dollars) at the expense of my family's health and safety. Of course, I didn't think about this (and a long list of other things) when I first moved in from an apartment. :rolleyes:

The HOA decided to have an attorney re-write the documents, but they conveniently included a clause that said the HOA board could assess a fee at any time of any amount for any reason. :eek: That went over real well with everyone :rolleyes:, and now they're spending more of our money on legal fees to have the attorney re-re-write the documents.

In another chapter of this comedy of errors, the "strictly by the book" HOA had the address numbers spray painted on the curb in front of each house without asking anyone if they wanted this done. Too bad they ignored a city law which prohibits doing this without the property owner's written permission. I would think just common decency, respect, and common sense would've clued them in that maybe they should get permission first. :rolleyes: This isn't a good sign, and to me it indicates that they're starting to think they're above the city and the law. :eek:

HOAs are not for me, but when properly managed with the right people on the board, they can sometimes be a good thing.

Jeffrey Makiel
07-31-2006, 10:04 PM
Dunno how it works where you are, but I've never heard of an HOA that performed maintenance on individual houses. Common areas like green-belts, sure, but not the homes of its members.
On many NJ town house developments they sure do, right down to replacing the roof, asphalt paving and exterior finish. However, the large tasks are usually done through a separate assessment that the association votes on. If you disagree, too bad. You're payin'.

But there are HOAs that are not as inclusive for the regular middle income family. However, the more upscale the development, the more the HOA's assume responsibility. It's great if you got the money and don't enjoy doing any of the work...and there's plenty of those high income level families in NJ. Maintenance fees exceeding $500 is not uncommon, and a nice $4,000 assessment fee for larger tasks every 3 or 4 years is also not uncommon.

John Kain
07-31-2006, 10:17 PM
I live in a HOA area.

Ours does pretty well except enforce rules. That's fine by me. But I'm moving soon and never plan to return to one.

I hate the idea of having Ms. Mary Jane Rotten Cro........dictate how I paint my house, build a shed....etc etc........

Does some group of "know-it-all-I-know-whats-best-for-you" self indulgent, better-than-thou, 'my way or the highway' pseudo-dictators get me into their development? Hell no.

I'm with the anti-HOA crowd. I'll take my chances on my neighbors and my relationships with them to ensure my house's value, rather than a set of arbitrary rules enforced (monetarily mind you!) by a 68 year-old woman who loves to pick up the fee for her, oops, I mean, the development's flower garden (right next to her house at the front of the neighborhood).

Count me out.

Lee DeRaud
07-31-2006, 11:28 PM
On many NJ town house developments they sure do, right down to replacing the roof, asphalt paving and exterior finish.Ok, that's a condominium set-up, not single-family houses. Not the same thing (at least out here) as an HOA in a single-family development: generally the roofs and exteriors in a condo are "common areas".