Work with old Table saw or look for something newer

[Marlow Wilson]

First things first hi there, I've been sneaking around absorbing knowledge from this forum for some time but only recently actually joined. I'm a student but have acquired a good number of tools over the past couple years and am now facing a fork in the road. I need a table saw for the next job I'm doing (a bar renovation with concrete countertops) and am working away from the my father's huge shop. He has offered to give me an old saw of his for free but I'm debating whether or not it is worth the time and fuss to get it going making decent cuts. The fence is not really workable (ie takes to much time to set up). but everything else is fine. It mostly just needs some TLC and a new fence I think.

Here are my questions

1) Is it feasible to get this thing cleaned up and decent? The top is quite flat (not perfect) but there is some rust.

2) Are these saws any good? I mean the design etc... am I missing out on something with it?

3) What route should I take with the fence? I've seen biesemeyer type fences around for reasonable amounts but know nothing about installing them on an old saw like this.

4) It is wired for 220 right now and I'd need to switch it back (it can be wired for both). How might I do this

There doesn't appear to be much or any arbor runout and the blade-miter slot parallelism seems to be reasonable. What other things should I look for.

With all this in mind should I bother or would I be better of getting a new powermatic 64A for $800 Can from a friend.

Thanks for the help and I'm sorry if this is too much.

[Tyler Howell]

Welcome Marlow,
Clean her up and you should have a good contractor saw. I don't think you will get the precission (SP?) That you want for fine WW.
Power and a great fence are real important.
There are better saws for your $800.00 than the PM 64 IMHO

[Darin Fritz]

Go to the manfacturers forum and check out the ez rails.

[glenn bradley]

Here's another forum (not SMC) that talks about a similar saw. You may want to ask these guys:

Moderator deleted direct link to another public forum - - TOS violation



Oooops! My bad. Do a search on Rockwell / Beaver.

[Larry Cooke]

Welcome to the Creek Marlow!

Here's a question for you. Are you in this for the long haul or just testing the waters? If you're sure you're in for the long haul then the safest and surest way would be to consider another saw. I'm not saying this is a bad saw mind you, but it will need some work to clean it up, and probably a newer fence to make it efficient and accurate. If you're on a time table then by all means go with a new or newer saw. (Read look for a good used saw, there's a lot of them out there if you look.)

If you're testing the waters and have some spare time then I would suggest you do your best to clean it up and put as little into it as possible. If it takes longer to set the fence then so be it. I'm sure with some fiddling you'll be able to get the fence into a workable state. Granted it may not be the best on the market, but it certainly could work for you. After using it and deciding as to whether you want to continue playing with wood you can make a better decision/choice on your next saw. You'll also appreciate the next saw more too.

Regarding the change of voltage on the motor, usually there is a tag on the electrical connector box of the motor. Where the wires go in, there is usually a cover of some sort. Remove the cover and see if there's a diagram in there. If not, check the name plate of the motor and try going to the manufacturer's site for the diagram. Typically, the diagram will tell you wires need to be tied together in order to run the motor at a desired voltage. If you're unsure about this then it may be wise to get a friend that knows electrical or hire an electrician.

Hope this helps,

Larry

[Mike Henderson]

Welcome to the Creek, Marlow. It's difficult to give advice just from the pictures, but I will relate my experience. I got started with, and am still using, an older Craftsman contractor's saw. It was given to me (free!) because it had a defective motor. I cleaned it up, adjusted it and got a new and more powerful (2 HP) motor for it. While it's not a cabinet saw, I find I can do good work (http://members.cox.net/h-h.woodworks/mikes_projects.htm) with it.

If I were you, I'd certainly try to clean up and tune up the old saw. If you think you'll eventually replace it with a better saw, I wouldn't buy a new fence unless the one that's on it is just terrible. Old contractor's saws don't bring anything on the used market so you'll never get your money back for the fence.

Later, you can purchase a cabinet saw with a really good fence, which should hold you for the rest of your woodworking career.

One day I'll run across a used cabinet saw at a great price and I'll replace my old contractor's saw.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

Mike

[George Sanders]

I bought a rusty old Craftsman 10 inch contractor's saw for $20 and bought a Mulecab fence for it as the original fence had been broken and poorly welded. I have no problems with it. I checked it with a dial indicator and it has less than .005 runout. Last year I built an oak entertainment armoir with raised panel pocket doors and it turned out nice. My point is you can do good work with old tools provided that they are tuned up. I went this route because it was what I could afford.

[Frank Fusco]

If you have the room for two, keep this one, clean/fix and use for general purpose cutting. Then buy yourself the better one for more precision work. Can save switching around blades, etc.

[Andy Fox]

I've never done it, but I think you should be able to get the saw cleaned up and in decent working order. Many people use a contractor's saw for precision woodworking.

What's the problem with the current fence? Maybe it will work better once everything's clean, smooth, and waxed. Once set square with the blade, does it stay square?

There should be a plate on the motor or maybe inside the panel on how to switch the wiring back to 120V.

[Mike Wilkins]

Welcome. The saw in the photos appears to be a well made machine with cast iron table top, which is a real plus. And since it is a Rockwell/Delta, it is possible that a Unifence will bolt up perfectly without any modifications at all.
I restored a 1964 vintage Rockwell/Delta Unisaw and added a Unifence which bolted up perfect. But you looking at between $250 and $350 or more for a Unifence; maybe less for other brands that may need holes drilled.
I would go the new fence route, rather than sink $800 into a machine that is not very much different than the one you have.
My 2 Cents.

[Marlow Wilson]

Thanks for all the replies. I tried to repost last night but my internet was down. The main problem withe the fence is that my dad, who has had the saw since it was nearly new, said the fence never really worked well. It doesn't tighten down well and needs to be meticulously measured up. My ideal option would be to get this saw going with a reasonably priced fence, but I don't want to do its going to come back and bite me. I know little about older saws and how to make them new, but based on what you guys are saying I'll probably trying cleaning it up this afternoon. To respond to some off the questions I'm definately in this for the long run but for now have access to an amazing shop. This is part of the problem as My fathers year old General cabinet saw has me spoiled. For now I'm just using this to rip up melamine and ply for a concrete form, so accuracy is not paramount but inevitably I'll come to want more, and easy fence accuracy.

More questions:

1. What should I use to get the rust off? I'm thinking steel wool plus something but I've never worked with something this rusty.

2. I'm still unsure about the fence recomendations. I can get a decent biesemeyer-type fence for $175 can at a local store. (Busy bee tools) Is this too much? And what other should I be looking at, keeping in mind that I'm in Canada (sorry).

I eagerly await your replies and after some real work I'm going to get the saw going.

Cheers and thanks,

Marlow

[Carl Eyman]

short of that do what Mike Hewnderson said above. With a $200 Vega fence or equivalent you'll make accurate cuts and do good work. If you have the bucks for a cabinet saw go for that, but if you have other shop needs for those $ fixing this one is probably the most cost effective route, IMHO.

[Don Baer]

On the Bessy web site they have specials that are scratch and dents. you can save big $$$. This link (http://www.biesemeyer.com/specials/index.htm) will take you to there web site.

[Jeff Horton]

Lots of fine work has been done with saws like that. A lot has to do with the person using the saw. The more you use it the better you know it and the better results you will get. I say clean it and use it. Then replace it latter if you need too.

I have a 1946 Unisaw (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=38453&highlight=unisaw)with the same or similar fence. I like the fence but I will be the first to admit a new one is nicer. But that fence can be made work just fine. What I have seen the key is the condition of the rails. They need to be rust free and semi-polished finish. Not mirror like, but smooth. If they are rusty they don't work with a flip.

I had to replace the bars on mine. I found an NOS set of 5 foot rails for mine, installed and waxed them and I am very happy with it. I took the fence apart, cleaned, painted and lube everything and learned how it worked and how to adjust it. Thought I would end up with Bessy clone but I ams still using mine and no intentions of replacing it.

PS I cleaned my table top with a ROS and started with some 80 grit paper. It cleaned up nice and still has the old patina on it too. A coat of furniture wax after that.

[Gary Swart]

The main function of a TS is to cut, usually rip, material straight with accuracy. To get those results, your saw must be properly aligned with no worn or defective parts that will alter the alignment. A contractor saw can provide these essentials. The next need is a fence that will guide the material. While even a straight 2x4 clamped on the table would work, but most of us would not settle for that, we want a fence that will adjust quickly, easily, and accurately. It appears from your description that the saw will do its part. If it is equipped with a quality fence, such as a Bies, this saw should work well for you. Even assuming that the motor can be rewired to run on 120, if at all possible, I'd keep it at 220 and provide a 220 outlet for it.

[Marion Rood]

I vote for cleaning up and changing fence. I would do I complete tune-up. Link belt, switch over to 110, maybe a new switch, line up the blade, build on small outfeed table, home made throat plate with splitter, buy forrest blade. You can always use this as a jobsite saw and upgrade to cabinet saw for your shop.
Good luck on rust removal, I've never had to remove that much and you want to keep tables flat. I use steel wool and Johnson's paste wax on my saw to keep it from rusting. Learn what causes kickback.
Post more pictures when you are through.

[John Kain]

Welcome to the Creek, Marlow. It's difficult to give advice just from the pictures, but I will relate my experience. I got started with, and am still using, an older Craftsman contractor's saw. It was given to me (free!) because it had a defective motor. I cleaned it up, adjusted it and got a new and more powerful (2 HP) motor for it. While it's not a cabinet saw, I find I can do good work (http://members.cox.net/h-h.woodworks/mikes_projects2.htm) with it.

If I were you, I'd certainly try to clean up and tune up the old saw. If you think you'll eventually replace it with a better saw, I wouldn't buy a new fence unless the one that's on it is just terrible. Old contractor's saws don't bring anything on the used market so you'll never get your money back for the fence.

Later, you can purchase a cabinet saw with a really good fence, which should hold you for the rest of your woodworking career.

One day I'll run across a used cabinet saw at a great price and I'll replace my old contractor's saw.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

Mike

I'm with Michael. I'm working with a crapola craftsman saw that is certainly worse than the one you have available to you. I seem to do well with mine.

I'd simply clean the top and rail (coat with Johnson paste wax), then clean and lube all the moveable parts and go from there. After you get some metal exposed and cleaned, then see what's up with the fence. You can always check e-b*y for a replacement.

[tod evans]

marlow, i go along with the general consensus, keep the saw, clean `er up and make money with it...8 bills won`t buy much when you`re needing a saw but if you`re only mildly interested it`ll go a long way toward some good old stuff. or be a start for new high quality down the road...02 tod

[Mike Henderson]

I cleaned the top of my saw with my random orbit sander. The sandpaper will clog up so you'll have to use several sheets. Wipe it down with mineral spirits every now and again so that you can see where you are. Wipe the mineral spirits off well before sanding again. You may find that several spots are pitted - don't try to get the pits out or you'll create a depression. Just ignore the pits - they won't affect the performance.

Here in SoCal, it's pretty dry so I don't wax my top. The guys who live in humid areas can give good advice for preventing rust long term.

If I understand your situation, you'll use this saw at the job site where you may not have access to 220V. 110V really limits the size of the motor you can put on it and the performance of the saw (you probably already know that).

Good luck - let us know what you decide to do and how it works out for you.

Mike

[Marlow Wilson]

I did a quick sand of the top with some medium grit emery and took apart the fence. The table top is still less than perfect but is smooth enough and should be alright for now. I didn't want to go nuts sanding but I'm thinking I might go back and do a little more. As far as the fence goes I took and apart and am going to clean, polish and wax (suggestions are welcome here) the internals and put it back together. I lightly sanded, polished and waxed the rails and will see how they perform. To respond to the post about new rails, I think I'd rather spend the money on a new fence system because the entire fence is in rough shape. Once the paint dries on the fence I'll be able to make some cuts and micro-adjustments.

I tried to upload pics of the current progress but am having some troubles.
I'll try repost with some picks of the final product as well as the in between stages.

Cheers and thanks again,

Marlow

[Marlow Wilson]

I guess I was able to post some pics. Anyways the above photo is the fence drying outside, and below is the improved top and fence taken apart.

Cheers

[Jeff Horton]

Well I said something about new rails but didn't mean you should buy them. I meant mine were so bad I didn't want to try to salvage them. I doubt they would have ever worked proper. Mine were totally rusty, no chrome left and the fence wouldn't slide. Just scrubbed and you had to bump it to make it move.

I think your on the right track, just take some emery cloth to the rails and clean if they are not smooth. People are quick to call these fences junk and I am sure some are, but mine works perfect. The scale is accurate, it locks square (just have to remember to tighten the back clamp too) and it doesn't move once locked. What more could you ask for?

Granted it not as smooth or nice to use as a new Bessy, If I found a great deal on a Bessy or similar I might replace it. But I have $60 in mine plus a couple hours labor. :) I would rather have the money to spend on wood myself.

[Tim Morton]

Looking good so far..to take a top a little further along if you get some Gojo hand soap in the orange bottle and some scotch brite pads you can alternate between gojo and wd-40 using a ROS and the scotchbrite pads. You will have it looking like new in a couple hours. I would also vote for a new fence...I mean after all that hard work you certainly deserve a little "treat":D Lots of times Amazon has a $25 off $200 sale and you can get a beis or vega fence for right around $200 with free shipping. Both will work GREAT for ya, and when you buy that cabinet saw down the road you can drop the new fence right on it.

[Wes Bischel]

Marlow,
Looks like you have a good start on things. I have the older version of your saw (early ‘70’s) with the same top and fence. As others have mentioned. Make sure the blade is aligned with the miter slots, and then the fence is aligned with the blade. If the fence didn’t work well from the get go, I would suspect it had an issue with the tension adjustment for the far side. My fence will go “out of square” when it’s moved, but when it is tightened squares up again – so I need to loosen and adjust the measured dimension. It has become second nature – just a quick pump and it is fine. Hopefully yours can be tuned even better.

On a side note, I have had my saw around 14/15 years and have found a lot of other things to spend my money on. It works well enough that I haven’t been able to justify replacing it.

Good luck,
Wes

[Bruce Wrenn]

Marlow,
Looks like you have a good start on things. I have the older version of your saw (early ‘70’s) with the same top and fence. As others have mentioned. Make sure the blade is aligned with the miter slots, and then the fence is aligned with the blade. If the fence didn’t work well from the get go, I would suspect it had an issue with the tension adjustment for the far side. My fence will go “out of square” when it’s moved, but when it is tightened squares up again – so I need to loosen and adjust the measured dimension. It has become second nature – just a quick pump and it is fine. Hopefully yours can be tuned even better.

On a side note, I have had my saw around 14/15 years and have found a lot of other things to spend my money on. It works well enough that I haven’t been able to justify replacing it.

Good luck,
WesDon't you just hate it when old tools refuse to quit. Recently upgraded Craftsman CS to Delta CS. Have Uni in shop holding up compound sliding miter that I have used ONCE. CMS was a gift from kids and wife's ex. Son talked wife's ex into contributing to cause. One day the Uni will be hooked up.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

When you stated that you are a student ( presumption is that $$ is limited) I submit that you answered all the questions right there.

Fix 'er up and wail away.
As stated by others the saw will always have limitations but then, so does everything else. No matter what machinery or equipment one uses one always has to cope with limitations.

[Steve Canada]

I went through this same dilema with a VERY similiar saw.

Got it free from my Brother in Law, along with a new 2hp General motor, and General blade guard/splitter/anti-kickback pawls.

Mine cleaned up awesome and it's a solid built saw. Weighes a ton! I'm surprised by your fence comments though, mine locks down on both ends like a sub hatch! But I haven't checked how square it is yet.

I was also given half of a Delta Unifence, but I'm still waiting for the rail to see if it will mount up.

MY ONLY ISSUES ARE:

- It's a 9" saw. Blades are getting harder to find, but are cheaper too.
- The saw is old-school, and Safety is at a minimum: There is NO room for a riving knife/anti-kickback pawls from under the table.
- A splitter will have to be added to a zero clearance.
- I had to add a magnetic switch from a Delta, and it's proving hard to find a mounting location.

On the plus side: you can buy any length iron rails and extend the fence way out if you need to. I have 2 sets.

I wasn't sure either which way to go. A new saw would be so nice! But, I decided 800$ is a lot of money, and while I could afford it, this saw will do 100% of what I need, at about 80-90% quality. For now, I can live with those numbers no problem.

Regarding the 110/220. This wiring should be done on the motor.

As an FYI: Here's a schematic if you want to do a thorough restoration:

https://www.acetoolrepair.com/DeltaHtml/TableSaws/6201.htm