"high dollar tools..."

[Ian Gillis]

Hi All

I kinda muddied the waters in the Saw Bench thread with some of my comments. What I should have done was to simply applaud Harry for his efforts and be done with it. Instead I took a swipe at very expensive tools - and by extension, those who use or covet them.

I would like to apologise if I offended anyone.

The great thing about Harry's initiative is that he is serving to remind us that you can get a lot of useful stuff done with simple tools. I think it's obvious from the number of responses he's got that there's a lot of interest in his approach. I don't particularly need any sawhorses (benches, trestles -depending where you're from) but I'm thinking of building some just for the fun of it.

As a newcomber to these forums, I'm struck by the amount of "ink" that is dedicated to tool talk. Maybe I'm the one with the problem - I'm prepared to accept that :). Harry's straight ahead "use the tools you got" approach is a refreshing break from the "LN LV BU LA" lingo - at least to me it is.

I'm old enough to remember when there was no LV or LN or GW. That doesn't mean that I don't embrace them and the improvements they have made in the selection of what's available out there (I own a Paragon smoother by LV and a LV low angle blockplane, neither of which get used much). But people got things done with hardware store tools.

Crappy tools or poorly tuned tools are a detriment to doing good work - no doubt about it. All the woodworking books I've read always recommended buying the best tools you can afford and I guess that still holds true. The best tools today, though, are so esoteric and highly refined that I think they are better than most of the people who buy them really need.(Myself included)

I think it's important for people to know that they can get by with less than the latest and greatest. You might need to tune it or tweak it a bit, but those are important skills too. If you want to do the highest quality work, you will want the best. If you want to bevel the sides of a sawbench, do as Harry does - pick up the nearest sharp plane and get at it!

End of rant. Please forgive the long post.

IG

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Let's not forget that the tools once available in the local hardware store are now the vintage Stanleys (et al) that many people covet, and that those tools cost then more than a new Lie-Nielsen does now (relative to average wages for a week).

I don't disagree with your assertion that "they can get by with less than the latest and greatest."

However, if you don't have a lot of time for woodworking and are finding an annoyingly large percentage of your time is spent fiddling with your tools (vs. not fiddling with a newer and/or more expensive tool), you may find (as I did) that the pricier tool is a better value for you.

I suppose now's the time to point out that the plane I reached for FIRST in my recent planing-a-teak-leg experience was a vintage 2001-era Record #4. I bought it from Lee Valley for the whopping price of $52.50. It's required little tuning to make it useable (under most circumstances, but this wood was really out of its league). Since I was taking lumber from rough to finished, it's arguable that I should have reached for a Jack first anyway (especially since I happened to have one). That's what I pulled out to finish the task.

[Chris Barton]

A very interesting take on this forum. My personal observation is that this forum tends to focus more on what I call "tool porn" than woodworking. More often than not you see posts of folks showing each other their hand tools and very few posts of the products of those tools. The most expensive plane I own is a LV rabet plane and of my "regular" planes a Groz #4 that I shapened with the tormek and it is great. I also own a couple of 50+ yo Stanleys (# 5 Baily and 2 block planes; low and reg angles). But, they are all heavy "users," I have no "decorator tools."

[Brent Smith]

Hi Ian,

I think that one of the reasons there is so much talk of high end tools is the category of users of these tools. Most of the people (myself included) on WWing forums are hobbyists. Being a hobby, spending money on and talking about our tools is part of the fun. Before LV and LN started making their planes, what was available as new was mediocre at best. The large makers were more interested in the bottom line than the quality of tool they produced and small cottage makers were virtually unknown.

Over the last 20 years or so WWing has taken off as a hobby and people were looking for better quality tools. Along came the new breed of maker. The choice, quality and variety of tools went on an upswing again. We post about what we want, what we need and what should we buy. I doubt it's any different now than it was 80 years ago on a job site where the new tool got appraised, fondled and judged by everyone there. It's just on a grander scale now because instead of maybe 10 guys sitting around the lunch pail, there are 10,000 guys gathering around the internet.

[harry strasil]

I must apologize about my rant too. Some of my old tools did cost a small fortune in there day too, and some of the ones I have found to work with were real bargains for what I paid for them, and I have since found out what they are really worth.

I choose to use old and older tools in an attempt to educate the public at living history and steam shows etc. of what tools and methods our forefathers used in there time period to fashion some of the things they did.

I also choose to use them mainly when not out before the public so that I can become proficient in their use. I do have a few tailed tools that I occasionally use when time is in short supply, such as planing to thickness and edge planing.

I am by no means what you would call a perfectionist, I don't make high dollar or fancy things, just simple usable functional things from what is at hand.

Usually I try to put myself in the frame of mind of a Wood Worker in the time period I am trying to depict with the tools of yesterday he had to work with. It gets difficult at times when I know there's a tailed router, bandsaw and tablesaw handy. When I do use them, I do so with the knowledge that foot powered ones were available in the time period I am trying to represent, but were expensive and not widely used.

I do woodworking the old fashioned way as a hobby and enjoy it immensly even tho it is time consuming and sometimes frustrating. But, the time invested in learning the proper use of the old tools has been rewarding and worth the effort.

I have nothing against the more modern tools as they are definitely of a better quality sometimes than the older ones. I just can't afford them and they do not fit well in my type of sometimes crude woodworking.

And lastly I wish I had smaller feet. Size 14's are a mouthful when you get foot in mouth disease occasionally.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Harry, no worries.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you like used cars, which is a great analogy.

Personally, having owned more used cars than new ones, used cars (even of a given year and mileage) are a highly variable lot, much more so than a new car of a similar type.

I don't have any big powered tools because I live in a terribly expensive area [1] and I'd have to have another million dollars to my name (really) to have a shop that could house them. There's no power in my shop area either (and I'd desperately love a light, btw.)

Given that, the price of Lie-Nielsen planes doesn't seem so bad. :)

[1] Three of the top ten cities in the US for median household income and median home price adjoin my town (Hillsborough, Atherton, Woodside). My town is 24th in housing price for the US. (all data for cities with 5000+ population as of 2000 census)

[tod evans]

And lastly I wish I had smaller feet. Size 14's are a mouthful when you get foot in mouth disease occasionally.

jr, this is a clasic! one that fits me to a "t" .
ian, i prefer the old tools myself for a couple reasons; 1] they`ll most likely never depreiciate. and 2] like jr.(harry) using them gives me a sense of nostilgia. also i find, especially with chisels, that many of the older ones are more aesthetically pleasing for me to just look at. as far as the steel used i can`t really tell much difference between my turn of the century buck brothers chisels and my newer two cherries? both hold an edge well and sharpen fairly quickly....i save the antiques for projects i do for family-n-friends and use the new tools to make production. reason being i`m not nearly as concerned about abusing something that`s easily replaced....
chris, isn`t part of the joy of woodworking whether as a hobby or for a living the aquisition,and associated bragging rights, of tools the owner finds pleasing to work with? tool porn- i suppose so? for me anyway tool porn is infills and damascus steel........02 tod

[Alan DuBoff]

I do woodworking the old fashioned way as a hobby and enjoy it immensly even tho it is time consuming and sometimes frustrating. But, the time invested in learning the proper use of the old tools has been rewarding and worth the effort.I'm curious what the old fashioned way is? There's machinery that was built back at the turn of the last century that ran off flat belts and steam engines. I would call that old fashioned.

I'd like to toss out an example. I don't own a lot of planes, and most of the planes that I do own are specialty planes. Of the common planes I only own a few. I do own a Stanley 60 1/2, Stanley 4C Type 11, Stanley No 8 Type 11. I could and do use these as my user planes. They work fine, and having them work well is more a matter of proper sharpening.

Let's say I bought a LN plane to replace my 4C, because I felt it was a better plane? It wouldn't help me be a better woodworker, but it would be a great plane and nobody would feel bad to own such a tool, IMO.

I have nothing against the more modern tools as they are definitely of a better quality sometimes than the older ones. I just can't afford them and they do not fit well in my type of sometimes crude woodworking.I have a hard time believing that anyone, yourself included couldn't afford to buy a LN plane, if you wanted one. The fact is that you don't need one as you have other planes that will do, even tools you might have made yourself. If you can afford to buy gas for your car/truck, you can afford to buy a new plane if you wanted.

Buying a new LN plane because you can't sharpen your Stanley is a poor reason for doing so, and will provide the person with the same difficulty if not more, due to the hardness of the blade.

However, stereotyping folks into a nice painted corner doesn't work so well, IMO. There's folks that only own LN planes and produce wonderful work. There are many folks that own fancy european sliding table saws and other fancy power tools that produce great work. There are folks that don't own any power tools and produce wonderful work. It is all a means to an end. Wether a person aligns with or works in the same fashion as either of these types is purely up to them to decide.

Life is too short to let someone else's ways sour your grapes (not directed at anyone specific). Enjoy it, and do what floats your boat.

I used a new handcrafted joinery saw as an example in the other thread. I had Mike Wenzloff make me 2 small saws. I didn't need them, yet I really do like them and find them to be great tools that will last my lifetime. One can say, "Oh, I wouldn't need a new saw...there's plenty of old ones...", and they would be right. Many with loose handles, duller than butter, broken teeth, rusty blades, frozen saw nuts, poorly seated backs, or even pitting.

So, this is nothing that a mill file, saw vise, saw file, and other minor tools couldn't take care of, but some people don't want to spend the time to do this. I will say that I have taught myself how to do this, and in some cases I have done so rather than working on a project that week, but felt it was a skill I wanted to have. For many folks it would be easier to go buy a new saw, one that is ready to use, so that they can at least have a great tool to use and it shouldn't bother anyone if folks decide to do so.

Maybe someone wants to buy a complete set of Ashley Iles chisels because they don't want to spend a month or two buying old vintage chisels to put together a user set. But maybe they don't want to do that, and no, I don't own a complete set of Ashley Iles chisels, but do have some newer Japanese chisels. I mostly use my old vintage chisels. I certainly could understand someone buying a set of Ashley Isles, or LN chisels, or Japanese chisels, or other new chisels...believe it or not, some folks will buy a set of new Irwin Marples as they can't afford used vintage Stanley chisels which are now going through the roof price wise.

[tod evans]

geeze allen you`re on a roll.......why do you feel the need to chastise jr. for liking to use handtools? same for bob? most of our forefathers didn`t own steam or waterpowered equipment and if they wanted to build something whether a barn or secratary they where left using tools they could build or buy and undoubtedly these where human powered. personally i think it`s wonderfull that both these fellows take the time to share their knowledge with the rest of us.
using, let alone tuning or making handtools is becomming a lost art. folks like jr. and bob are whom i consider the wise ones that folks like me should listen to and learn from.
i`d like to thank both these fellows for taking the time to share their knowledge and personalities with the rest of us.....02 tod

[harry strasil]

Well, here we go again, I am gonna chew on the other shoe this time, I already got the toe chewed off the right shoe, might as well have a matched pair.

I guess I opened another can of worms again with an inappropriate post. Last time it was because I was not enough of a Neander when I post a picture of an antique power tool which I consider to be an evolution of a neander tool. This time its because I am too much of a Neander it seems. :rolleyes:

LOL, all this Discussion,for lack of a better term, could be put to better use making chips and sawdust by hand or by power, whichever we have to do the job we want to do. We not gonna change our methods, so why (Discuss) it in such depth. :confused:

This is my final post on the subject, That's my story, and I am sticking to it. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/other/mystory.jpg

We could always discuss Global Warming. LOL

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/other/ATT00003.jpg

[Mark Rios]

Harry, where'd you get a picture of my clothesline? OH....I'm so embarrassed.

[Hank Knight]

Ian,

I'm strictly an amateur woodworker - have been for 50+ years. I've never had the benefit of a mentor; most of what I know I picked up from reading and from trial and error - mostly error. I didn't become part of a woodworking community until I discovered Sawmill Creek and several other forums I visit regularly. I have learned more here in the last 3 years than I learned in all my prior woodworking experience. A big part of what I have learned has been about tools.

I don't know if more digital ink is spent here on tools than on woodworking techniques and projects, but it does seem that tools get a large part of the attention. For me that has been a good thing. I like tools and I have enjoyed learining about them and how they work. The tool posts here and elswhere sparked in me something of a tool-buying binge that has lasted several years. I must admit, however that recently I have returned to a more rational state of mind. My lust for tools has cooled (age has cooled most of my passions). I no longer crave the newest LN wonder plane or scour the internet for the perfect 3/4" beveled edge Witherby chisel or the pristine 75 year-old Disston #12. I have enough tools in my shop to build just about anything I want to build. My interests have returned to the creative aspect of woodworking; I'm much more intrigued by posts about projects and techniques these days.

Nevertheless, internet tool porn and the endless posts about tools here and elsewhere fed an important phase of my woodworking career (if you can call it a "career"). Had I not had the benefit of the many, many wonderful and educational posts on the subject of tools and their use, I would still be completely dependent on my router and table saw, and my one and only hand plane would still be sitting on the shelf, gathering dust and capable only of gouging great chunks from whatever unfortunate piece of timber I turned it to. Instead, today I have a fairly complete woodworking shop with more tools that I will ever need. But I enjoy them. They are sharp, they work as they should, the hand tools are capable of much more that I ever imagined and, I am a much more confident woodworker than I was before I took this journey. As much as one may decry the fascination and perhaps obsession with tools that permeates this and other woodworking forums, I have enjoyed and benefitted from it and I certainly hope and imagine others have and will too.

My $.02

[Ian Gillis]

Hi

Lots of interesting discussion on this topic. It certainly underlines the fact that we come to woodworking for a whole range of reasons. We are all conditoned by our life experiences and we can obviously draw pleasure from different aspects of woodworking.

It's silly of me to criticise others' preferences. I have enough peculiarities of my own to work on. In fact, I'd like everybody to go out and buy an armload of LN planes right now... then the prices might drop, see, and then I might be able to justify buying some of those bronze beauties for myself :D

Now, it looks like the rain has let up so I'm off to buy some lumber and I'm gonna make me some sawbenches:)

Cheers
IG

[Bernhard Kühnen]

Another valid point is that in some parts of the world (e.g. Germany) it is very difficult to find old metal planes. OK you can find old wooden ones but what is if you enjoy metal ones?

Buying via EBAY is one possibility but you really never know what you get and perhaps you have to buy a replacement blade and suddenly you arrive very close to the amount of a new LN which work very fine out of the box.

Mine are all users and of course they look very nice and I enjoy working with them. But I am still a little envy for the guys who could go to a barn sales and look for some good old Stanleys which they could take back to life.
By the way I have bought some old Disstons, Stanley #45 and Stanley router and they work fine. But I still like my new LN´s.

I guess there are many ways to Rome....

[Alan DuBoff]

geeze allen you`re on a roll.......why do you feel the need to chastise jr. for liking to use handtools? same for bob? most of our forefathers didn`t own steam or waterpowered equipment and if they wanted to build something whether a barn or secratary they where left using tools they could build or buy and undoubtedly these where human powered. personally i think it`s wonderfull that both these fellows take the time to share their knowledge with the rest of us.
using, let alone tuning or making handtools is becomming a lost art. folks like jr. and bob are whom i consider the wise ones that folks like me should listen to and learn from.
i`d like to thank both these fellows for taking the time to share their knowledge and personalities with the rest of us.....02 todNo, not chastising at all, in fact, why should they feel that folks who buy modern tools that they consider to be expensive to be bad? Why would it bother them that someone bought an LN plane instead of using an old Stanley?

I was more curious with my question about what "old fashioned" meant.

Let's leave power vs. hand out of it, my point was that even if someone was to use a powered grinder, you can place the same onus on them.

I just don't see how using modern hand tools (joinery saw as a case, LN plane as another, new chisels, whatever) to be bad when one is using them to work wood, period.

I can't make that any clearer for you Todd.

[Alan DuBoff]

We not gonna change our methods, so why (Discuss) it in such depth.Nobody was asking anyone to change. I was more so hoping that some folks would realize that everyone doesn't work wood like them, buy tools like them, or eat and go to the bathroom like them. Sometimes it's nice to have an open view of things.

Many people are here for various reasons. Wether it be to actually work wood, collect tools, or even if they just have an interest and don't even have any tools. I have never felt it good for folks to stereotype any particular class of folks, and certainly will voice my own opinion on that when they do. Especially when someone is living in a glass house with hypocritical views, which to me some of those statements are.

If it bothers you, or anyone else, it's easy to hit the next key.

Not exaclty sure what your underwear hanging in the wind has to do with hand tools.

[tod evans]

alan, my appoligies! i`ve re-read what you`ve written and looked at it in a different light. i see where you where headed, at least i think i do?
sorry, tod

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

We could always discuss Global Warming. LOL

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/other/ATT00003.jpg

As a silly aside, mom and I went out to the movies the other night to "cool off."

When we got home, a friend asked us how we liked "An Inconvenient Truth" (about global warming).

I said we'd gone to see something else, completely missing his rather clever witticism. It didn't click for an entire day that he was being funny. :)

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

INevertheless, internet tool porn and the endless posts about tools here and elsewhere fed an important phase of my woodworking career (if you can call it a "career"). Had I not had the benefit of the many, many wonderful and educational posts on the subject of tools and their use, I would still be completely dependent on my router and table saw, and my one and only hand plane would still be sitting on the shelf, gathering dust and capable only of gouging great chunks from whatever unfortunate piece of timber I turned it to. Instead, today I have a fairly complete woodworking shop with more tools that I will ever need. But I enjoy them. They are sharp, they work as they should, the hand tools are capable of much more that I ever imagined and, I am a much more confident woodworker than I was before I took this journey. As much as one may decry the fascination and perhaps obsession with tools that permeates this and other woodworking forums, I have enjoyed and benefitted from it and I certainly hope and imagine others have and will too.

Amen. Except that I'll add that I learned a lot about using routers and table saws back in the 90s on rec.woodworking.

There is an incredible amount to learn in order to choose one's tools, and it must get tiresome to those who feel they've got their full set.

[Mark Rios]

.........................whew!!!.................. ..okay I'm back............just finished ordering some high dollar tools..................................what did I miss????

[Mike Henderson]

I'm a bit late reading this thread.

I've taken a number of woodworking classes - still do - and have been surprised (maybe even shocked) by the money some beginning woodworkers spend on LN and LV planes, before they even know what the planes will do, or if they're going to use them. My most "mouth dropping" moment was when a beginning woodworker came to class with a LN #9 plane ($350), when he didn't even know what a shooting board was.

The school publishes a recommended tools list and is very reasonable in what they recommend. For example, they recommend a Stanley #4 plane and the Irwin blue handle chisels.

When a beginning woodworker asks me for tool recommendations (particularly planes), I recommend the older Stanley planes that you can find at reasonable prices on EBay, for several reasons.

First, I believe that the woodworker will gain a lot by learning to tune up an old plane. Most of the time, an old plane can be improved and the woodworker will learn what improves the working and what doesn't.

Second, many beginning woodworkers won't use hand tools very much but will stick with power tools.

Third, even if they use hand tools a lot, they don't know in the beginning what hand tools they'll use a lot and which ones will gather dust, or get sold. They'll also develop personal preferences.

Fourth, there's a lot of expense in setting up a shop. Most of the people I meet are not rich (far from it). Being told to buy expensive tools will just stand in the way of their development into experienced woodworkers.

Of course, you can sell a LN or LV plane for almost what you paid for it, but it can be a lot of money sitting around until you decide what you want to do.

Mike

[Don Baer]

I wasn't going to post on this thread because I am only a part time Neander. My first woodworkering teacher was my Dad. He had some Disten hand saws a Stanley Smoother and some chizels as well a coupe of hammers and a brace and some bits and some assorted rasps. This is what I first learned to use. Later on when they became available he could afford them he got a corded hand drill and a Skill saw. Later he got a bench top TS, a bench top band saw and a bench top drill press as well as some corded sanders. He kept the plane, chizels and other neander tools and continued to use them as well as the newer mores modern tools depending on what he wanted to do. When he passed away several years ago I kept all of his nieander tools as well as the bench top Table saw. I now have a much better table saw, floor standing band saw and various other more modern power tools. One thing I learned frommy Dad and later from a workshop I took from Sam Maloof is "use the proper tool for what ever the job requires". I watched in awe as Sam used his band saw routers as a carving tools then he would use his hand rasps to finish shapeing. There's nothing wrong with being totaly Nieander but that not my style I do woodworking as a hobby and to me the tools don't make the job it's the craftsman.
Harry I have been enjoying your tutorial because it is teaching technique. This is part of what my Dad taught me and part of what I learned from Sam Maloof. Keep up the posts since I still have a lot more to learn. I intend to teack my technique to my sons and grandkids.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I've taken a number of woodworking classes - still do - and have been surprised (maybe even shocked) by the money some beginning woodworkers spend on LN and LV planes, before they even know what the planes will do, or if they're going to use them. My most "mouth dropping" moment was when a beginning woodworker came to class with a LN #9 plane ($350), when he didn't even know what a shooting board was.

Yeah, that's a definite purchasing error, that last one. I know what each and every one of my planes does and have used the vast majority.

(IO.read('plane-list.txt')).split(/\n/).sort!.compact * ', '

...tells me:

Chisel Plane (Stanley #192 modified), Knight Toolworks Dovetail, Knight Toolworks Scrub, Lie Nielsen #40-1/2 Scrub Plane, Lie Nielsen #5-1/2 Jack, Lie Nielsen #60-1/2 Low Angle Block Plane, Lie Nielsen #95 Right-Angle plane, Lie Nielsen Boggs Straight Spokeshave, Lie Nielsen Preston Rounded Spokeshave, Lie-Nielsen #103 Block Plane, Record #4 Smoother, Record #7 Jointer, Record 043 Plough Plane, Small Forkstaff, Stanley #113 Compass Plane, Stanley #12-1/2 Veneer Scraper, Stanley #3 Smoother, Stanley #39 1/4\" Dado Plane, Stanley #45 Combination Plane, Stanley #46 Skew Combination Plane, Stanley #48 Match Plane, Stanley #4C Smoother, Stanley #55 Spokeshave, Stanley #6 Fore Plane, Stanley #78 Rabbet Plane, Stanley #79 Side Rabbet Plane, Stanley #8 Jointer, Stanley #92 Shoulder Plane, User-made Hock Kit Smoother, User-made Panel Raiser

[Chris Barton]

I have held back on this forum a little but, quite honestly it has a name that is simply not fitting. When I first became a member of SMC I thought this forum would have a significant number of posts of projects made with these hand tools and using techniques specific to hand tools. But, little of such posts can be found in this forum. There is a dialogue about old hand tools and new hand tools and those that covet and collect them. But looking over the past few months of posts less than 10% actually show projects made with these tools. So, that leaves one to wonder, do people collect tools and choose this forum to talk about their acquisitions? Aside from a few, including Harry, Rob and a few others, it appears that this forum is really more focus on tool collecting. And, that's perfectly OK. I would much rather hear from Bob, Rob and Harry but, again that's because I am more interested in the product of the tools and much less interested in their collectability. Maybe it would be better and more accurate if the forum were renamed the "collectors corner" or some such...

Just my opinion.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Chris, good points, and I'd like to see more completed works too, because I think it'd be encouraging. I'm doing poorly in that department (snapping more pics of my shaving horse soon, really).

I tend to post a lot of pics on flickr, but even so I haven't really quite finished most of my projects -- I keep getting priority interrupts.

Personally, I'd not be interested in a collector's corner, because I don't collect tools. :)

[Mike Wenzloff]

I have held back on this forum a little but, quite honestly it has a name that is simply not fitting...
Oh, I don't know, Chris. It is named Neanderthal Haven...

1. A harbor or anchorage; a port.
2. A place of refuge or rest; a sanctuary.

Of course, once the criticsm gets leveled, it becomes less so.

Count the posts in the General woodworking forum as to how many post are Should I buy...I just bought... vs. projects. As well, compare the shear number of regular posters in the General forum to the number of project posts. Could be an enlightening comparison to the NH forum.

I'll say it again. I don't come here to post what I've made. I do come here to join in a fellowship of others with like interests, that being handtools. Whether that fellowship consists of Here's what I've made...How do I...what should I buy...Here's what I bought...I don't really care. It's the comraderie I seek. All else is but the vehicle for that to happen. For me.

I work hard all day, every day. Usually 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. For me SMC--regardless of the forum I am reading--is for rest and relaxation. Sometimes I get to ask a question. Sometimes I get to share a process or method of work. But I read far more than I post. It's contemporary, unlike a book or a magazine. It's interactive to a degree, unlike a book or a magazine.

And heck, sometimes like my friends when we have worked a long day and happen to meet up at a local watering hole, I can bicker and debate.

Those are some of the reasons why I come here. Does this meet with your approval?

Take care, Mike

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Dang, Mike, that's a great post. And what you said.

I've learned so much here (and on Woodnet and UK workshop and...).

But I need to go into the shop now and open up the package of vintage saws I just got....

[Chris Barton]

Oh, I don't know, Chris. It is named Neanderthal Haven...

1. A harbor or anchorage; a port.
2. A place of refuge or rest; a sanctuary.

Of course, once the criticsm gets leveled, it becomes less so.


I would say that it was not a criticism but, rather an observation based in fact.


Count the posts in the General woodworking forum as to how many post are Should I buy...I just bought... vs. projects. As well, compare the shear number of regular posters in the General forum to the number of project posts. Could be an enlightening comparison to the NH forum.

I see far more projects posted relative to general number of posts on GWW. However, there is plenty of tool discussions over there as well. Diversity is great. I'm not sure I share your appraisal in this comparison.


I'll say it again. I don't come here to post what I've made. I do come here to join in a fellowship of others with like interests, that being handtools. Whether that fellowship consists of Here's what I've made...How do I...what should I buy...Here's what I bought...I don't really care. It's the comraderie I seek. All else is but the vehicle for that to happen. For me.

And that is clearly the overall view of most of the posters on the NH board. However, at some point in time one must assume for any of the items of discussions on NH to be truely "tools" they must logically get "used" and thus, produce something beside shavings or sawdust. If collecting tools is really the underlying passion why not embrace it. If using tools is the drive, show the evidence, we all could enjoy and dare I say, learn from such. How pedantic a debate as such as have occured in this segment as "how thin my shaving are" which by itself, seems to yeild little value. Yet, may favorite so far has been the panic stricken plea for help in cleaning wood residue off of a new tool. Seems to reinforce my belief. All that said, this is a free and voluntary forum and everybody should enjoy it. My posting is just observation. While I may want to see more actual finished pieces, in reality, what I want is irrealevant. Interestingly, in reviewing the past year of posts in this forum guess which posts had the most activity? (hint: they weren't pictures of saws and planes).


I work hard all day, every day. Usually 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. For me SMC--regardless of the forum I am reading--is for rest and relaxation. Sometimes I get to ask a question. Sometimes I get to share a process or method of work. But I read far more than I post. It's contemporary, unlike a book or a magazine. It's interactive to a degree, unlike a book or a magazine.

And heck, sometimes like my friends when we have worked a long day and happen to meet up at a local watering hole, I can bicker and debate.

Yeah, me too. That whole doctoring thing is a pain. Like the great Major Frank Burns of MASH fame once said in his role, "being a doctor wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to touch people." I find SMC a nice place to relax. I also think it is a great place to ask stimulating questions and pose provocative postulates (hmmm?).


Those are some of the reasons why I come here. Does this meet with your approval?

My approval is meaningless, just ask my 24yo daughter:o .


Take care, Mike

You too!

[Mike Wenzloff]

I...
I see far more projects posted relative to general number of posts on GWW. However, there is plenty of tool discussions over there as well. Diversity is great. I'm not sure I share your appraisal in this comparison.


Interestingly, in reviewing the past year of posts in this forum guess which posts had the most activity? (hint: they weren't pictures of saws and planes).
You're right Chris.

Here are the 12 posts with the greatest number of responses:

Finished Bench
Plane Advise
Newport Kneehole Desk
Newport style bureau
Afraid to ask but...
Dovetail difficulties
Dovetailed Shaker Serving Tray
Winding Sticks
Mortise Chisels
Rationale for Sole Flattening
Silver Chest Pics
Infill Planes Equal Big Dollars

And next up:
It's Finished! Coping Saw-sized Japanese-Pull-Type Bow Saw (for Dovetails)
Plane recommendations?
Veritas Low Angle Jack
...for Scarey Sharpeners... MKII Power..
LN Low Angle Block Plane or Veritas version
Any homemade saws? Started by who about what?
Some family additions
Need chisel advice
Granite surface plates
I've Created a Monster... (Long w/Pics)
microplane VS rasps
Japanese chisels
LN disapointment

Want me to go on?

Of those threads, how many are completed projects? How many are advice? How many are acquisitions?

This goes on for pages. It's a fairly even mix of posting dates as well. Seems this has been going on for some time.

And of the posts in the general woodworking forum, sorted by greatest number of responses?

Of the 24 posts on my first page, possibly 4 of them are about woodwork [I think it was 3 of those 4 started by Mark Singer as well], the rest are of shop fixtures and or shops, what tools to buy or what tools to avoid...get the picture?

I'll start another post for another point...see. This is just like down at my watering hole...Mike

[Clinton Findlay]

its all horses for courses.

I buy old hand tools because I am paying off a home loan. I figure every extra months repayment I make is worth a year off the loan in the long run. This is my focus, at least till children come along.:p

So, my thicknesser (a No7 jointer plane) cost 1/20th (maybe more?) its powered equivilent - I have no power in my shed so thats another expenditure.
I might be a lot slower by using hand tools - but if I were still saving for machinery then I would not have the $ to buy my timber anyway.
For the same reason I buy second hand tools - the cost of a LN No7 is a lot more than an old beastie.
I don't have to produce a lot of furniture to provide my wages - I'm a hobbyist.

I'd love a Festool router - I looked at them the other night and in my country (Australia) they are @$1000 (@700 US$?), and I'd like to match it to a shop vaccuum.

While I don't have the money to buy LN or Festool - I'll not knock another for choosing to take this route. The same if someone wants to fill their workshop with infill planes instead of other types - who am I to critiscise their hobby?

[tod evans]

well......i come over her and chip in my .02 because i use handtools,not exclusively but i do use them daily. i enjoy the banter here as well as in the other forums and figure there`s as much to learn here as there is in the others. i`m not a hobbiest although i hope to be someday down the road. thanks to the whole lot of you for your collective wisdom...02 tod

[Mark Singer]

You're right Chris.

Of the 24 posts on my first page, possibly 4 of them are about woodwork [I think it was 3 of those 4 started by Mark Singer as well], the rest are of shop fixtures and or shops, what tools to buy or what tools to avoid...get the picture?

I'll start another post for another point...see. This is just like down at my watering hole...Mike

I think I am in some sort of trouble again....huh:confused:

[Ian Gillis]

Hi

I really had no idea that I was stirring up such a hornet's nest. I apologise unconditionally to anyone who was offended by my comments. Feelings are running very high in here the last couple of days - I am afraid I have driven a wedge between 2 camps that were co-existing peacefully.

I'm standing down. I'm going to go back to lurking and I'll keep my opinions to myself. Again, I'm sorry for the upset I have caused.

IG

[tod evans]

Hi

I really had no idea that I was stirring up such a hornet's nest. I apologise unconditionally to anyone who was offended by my comments. Feelings are running very high in here the last couple of days - I am afraid I have driven a wedge between 2 camps that were co-existing peacefully.

I'm standing down. I'm going to go back to lurking and I'll keep my opinions to myself. Again, I'm sorry for the upset I have caused.

IG

awww man, no reason for that ian! really this is no hornets nest, and the comments are in no way your fault. please feel free to chime in any time it suits you all of us are pretty well behaved.......well most of the time:rolleyes: .
different perspectives are just that, we all have our own take on things but at least here we`re able to discuss them civily....02 tod

[Lars Thomas]

Ian, I have been following this thread with interest. In no way would I consider this a hornet’s nest. It's all very intelligent discussion.

I too have always been surprised about the ratio of tool oriented post compared to completed project posts. I think both have value, but I prefer the completed project postings.

[James Mittlefehldt]

Ian you didn't start anything that had not happened before and will likely happen again. The reality is in some sites this would have turned into an all out war here it was a minor disagreement, at worst, and no harm done.

Feel free to post anytime and ask any question you might have I am sure you will be happy with the answer you receive. The only dum question is the one you don't ask.

By the way Bob Smalser and Harry Strasil are tremendous resources check out some of Bob's links, I learned to do Mortices pretty quick reading one of Bob's tutorials.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi

I really had no idea that I was stirring up such a hornet's nest. I apologise unconditionally to anyone who was offended by my comments. Feelings are running very high in here the last couple of days - I am afraid I have driven a wedge between 2 camps that were co-existing peacefully.

I'm standing down. I'm going to go back to lurking and I'll keep my opinions to myself. Again, I'm sorry for the upset I have caused.

IG
Ian, if you were to go back to lurking it would be an unfortunate result of what I think has been a simple debate of philosophical difference. And even at that, some of these differences are closer to agreement than one would suspect if it were a live conversation at the local pub.

So, my feeling is, stick around, make any comment you feel like making. At worse it will stir conversation. Wait. That's also the best it can do. A win-win if you were to ask me...

Take care, Mike

[Mike Weaver]

So, my feeling is, stick around, make any comment you feel like making. At worse it will stir conversation. Wait. That's also the best it can do. A win-win if you were to ask me...


Well said Mike.

-Mike

[Mark Rios]

Hey Ian, even though you're from Canada :D , I, for one, vote that you stick around and keep your insight in the fore.

[Dave Anderson NH]

As I noted in another post where there was disagreement, argument, discussion, philosophical differences, and personal attitudes expressed, this is part of forum life. We would have a boring Neanderthal Forum indeed if everyone agreed. In fact, there would be little reason to even have a forum.

We all have different perspectives and we all are members here for different reasons. As long as everyone plays by the rules and exercises common courtesy, thinks before they post, and respects the viewpoints of others, we will do well.

Whether we are here to talk about tools, view members projects, ask questions or answer them, no one will be pleased all of the time. Conversely, everyone should be pleased some of the time. That's about the best we can hope for in this life.

Play nice, and have fun.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

For the record, I was not offended (or upset or whatever) in any way. If anything, the discussion got me to think about why I preferred the choices I have, and how I might do things differently if I started over again.

In particular, it was interesting to me in thinking about some of the other choices I've made in the not-too-distant past.

For example, when I started woodworking again this year, I thought a LN smoother was expensive at $300. However, just the prior month, I'd spent that much on makeup (before you gasp, I hadn't bought ANY in years, so it was unusual) at Neiman Marcus. (The line I decided on wasn't any more expensive there than anywhere else, and they have superb customer service.)

I'm still sorting out in my head why one seemed expensive and the other didn't, and I don't have a good answer yet, especially as I've always been a tomboy and tool lover and didn't wear makeup for years....

[Jeff Farris]

For the record, I was not offended (or upset or whatever) in any way. If anything, the discussion got me to think about why I preferred the choices I have, and how I might do things differently if I started over again.

In particular, it was interesting to me in thinking about some of the other choices I've made in the not-too-distant past.

For example, when I started woodworking again this year, I thought a LN smoother was expensive at $300. However, just the prior month, I'd spent that much on makeup (before you gasp, I hadn't bought ANY in years, so it was unusual) at Neiman Marcus. (The line I decided on wasn't any more expensive there than anywhere else, and they have superb customer service.)

I'm still sorting out in my head why one seemed expensive and the other didn't, and I don't have a good answer yet, especially as I've always been a tomboy and tool lover and didn't wear makeup for years....

Dierdre, that is a conundrum that the overwhelming majority here at the Creek absolutely cannot relate to. :D

It is true, though. Any piece of underwater photographic gear that I can find for 300 - 400 is cheap, but I sweat bullets over the same amount for a LN plane that I will use just as much or more than I will the photo doodad.

[Mark Rios]

Dierdre, that is a conundrum that the overwhelming majority here at the Creek absolutely cannot relate to. :D

It is true, though. Any piece of underwater photographic gear that I can find for 300 - 400 is cheap, but I sweat bullets over the same amount for a LN plane that I will use just as much or more than I will the photo doodad.


Hey Jeff, where do you find complete doodad's for $300 to $400? I'm doing good to find an underwater doo OR dad for that much.

And at least I touch my high dollar tools once in a while. Here in the central valley it's hard to find anywhere to even open the case for underwater stuff. :D :D :D

[Ray Sheley]

As a relatively "newbie" on these forums let me add my insight on the tools vs. project debate.
For myself, I am much more comfortable in discussing tools, what they are, how much they cost, and what I did or will do with them simply because I have more aquired skill with this aspect of our passion than what I yet posses in woodworking.
When I get good enough I will show and discuss my projects, until then I will count coup and be one of the boys ( with all due respect to the ladies Deidre.) with tool talk.
I love the project threads and learn a lot from them, so keep them coming. I just now do not have much of value to add to the posts.
Simply put, Our interests far outweigh our contribution. We talk up what we can.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Ray,

Welcome to SMC. I originally posted to this thread because it seemed to be provocative enough to stimulate some deep discussion. Please don't hold back on posting your projects. The many sage tallents can provide great guidance and superb reinforcement on your fledgling efforts and as woodworkers, we tend to be our own worst critics...

[Frank Fusco]

Reading this thread has made me chuckle. I have largely given up neanderthal tools because the old energy motor is getting rusty. I now enjoy using (a new term to me) "tailed" tools. But this thread, with just a few word changes could have been used on other forums I belong to. I have long been a reenactor/buckskinner and user of traditional style muzzle loading firearms, particularly flintlocks. Many discussions on those lists end up with some one saying "if they had it, they would have used it". 'they' meaning those who lived in the pre-1840 era. That's not the point. The point is/was to learn from experience how our predecessors lived and forged lives, and America, using what they did have back then. From that use came enjoyment. By turning on a band/table saw, powered lathe or whatever, I will never understand what was involved in making items necessary for living with just a few simple hand tools. That said, enjoy what you will, your way. As far as I know, there are no Neanderthal Police watching.

[Mike Henderson]

Reading this thread has made me chuckle. I have largely given up neanderthal tools because the old energy motor is getting rusty. I now enjoy using (a new term to me) "tailed" tools. But this thread, with just a few word changes could have been used on other forums I belong to. I have long been a reenactor/buckskinner and user of traditional style muzzle loading firearms, particularly flintlocks. Many discussions on those lists end up with some one saying "if they had it, they would have used it". 'they' meaning those who lived in the pre-1840 era. That's not the point. The point is/was to learn from experience how our predecessors lived and forged lives, and America, using what they did have back then. From that use came enjoyment. By turning on a band/table saw, powered lathe or whatever, I will never understand what was involved in making items necessary for living with just a few simple hand tools. That said, enjoy what you will, your way. As far as I know, there are no Neanderthal Police watching.

I agree. One thing I'd like is a book that really described what it was like to work in a furniture shop in the 1700's. One that described the tools, the working conditions, finishes, and the people who did the work. Could even be a novel.

Try as we might, most of us can only approximate what it must have been like. We have modern shops with lights, modern glue, etc. We have modern knowledge in our heads. I use old tools but it's piecemeal. I know that it's not really what our ancestors lived through.

Mike

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi Mike, There is actually more about how those shops operated than you would think. Unfortunately it's all in bits and pieces in dozens of different books and periodicals. American Furniture, the Chipstone Foundation annual publication, had a great article a while last year on shops in Newport, RI. The best source however is a trip to Colonial Williamsburg and a lot of questioning of Mack Headley, Kaare Loftheim, and David Salisbury in the Hay Cabinet Shop. Mack in particular has spent over 30 years researching this very topic.

[Jeff Farris]

.... The best source however is a trip to Colonial Williamsburg and a lot of questioning of Mack Headley, Kaare Loftheim, and David Salisbury in the Hay Cabinet Shop. Mack in particular has spent over 30 years researching this very topic.


I was going to add Colonial Williamsburg to this thread, but Dave beat me to it. On one visit one of the fellows was putting the last coat of wax on an exquisite harpsicord. They had been working on it for over a year. Two guys behind him were roughing out some large timbers. I asked him what they were working on. "The next one", he said.

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Mike, There is actually more about how those shops operated than you would think. Unfortunately it's all in bits and pieces in dozens of different books and periodicals. American Furniture, the Chipstone Foundation annual publication, had a great article a while last year on shops in Newport, RI. The best source however is a trip to Colonial Williamsburg and a lot of questioning of Mack Headley, Kaare Loftheim, and David Salisbury in the Hay Cabinet Shop. Mack in particular has spent over 30 years researching this very topic.

Thanks for the suggestion. The reason I mentioned a book is that Colonial Williamsburg is a long ways from me (completely across the US). I've visited quite a long time ago, but that was before I really started woodworking.

I think there's a lot of interest in how things were done back then - maybe Mack Headley will write a book on his research one day.

Mike