#4 Blade question

[Bob Hallowell]

I have a bedrock 604. I recently bought a LV A2 steel blade for it. I honed it up and taper the edges some. but when I use it the chips are different. first off the come out staight instead of curled. plus they just plain look different. I put the old SW blade back on and it made nice curly shavings.

I can get both to take .001 shavings. it just the A2 blade doesn't feel as good.

The A2 is set at 30deg with a 1deg micro bevel and the SW is set at 25deg with a 1 degree micro bevel. Both would clean shave my arm with one pass.

I spent a few bucks on this blade and to tell you the truth the original seems much smoother to me.

Why is this.
Bob

[jonathan snyder]

Bob,

I have no idea, but I just ordered the same blade for my Stanley type 11. I hope it is an improvement to what I have. Hopefully someone else will chime in and give you an answer. I let you know how mine works out after I get it.

Jonathan

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I found A2 "grabby" (for lack of a better word). I found it worked much better (and I was a lot happier with it) after I hollow ground it on the Tormek.

That said, I nicked it while planing some teak, so it'll be a spell before I use it again (gotta drag the Tormek back into the house for that).

I have the Hock blade, not the LV one, btw.

[Jake Darvall]

So, the shavings with the A2 blade comes out straight. Whys that bad ?..... Is the plane harder to push with the A2 blade installed ? Thats the important question in my book ?

Whats else differs between the blades other than the steel quality ?

Is the A2 thicker ? I'm guessing its a mill or so thicker.

How about the bevel angle. When you sharpen the A2 blade at 25 degree's does it perform the same ? Try that I reakon.

My feeling is.....there's a difference in the way you've setup the blades, and not so a problem with the A2 blade. Just my first impressions though..... have to experiment a bit I guess. Goodluck.

[Bob Hallowell]

Yes the blade feels more grabby as Dierdre said. The Iron is thicker and is set at a 30deg as I said. I hated to regrind cause in my mind it should not of made a difference. But if someone thinks it will I will try.

the chips being straight don't bother me I was just pointing out what was differtent.

The SW blade just kinda whooses alaong and the a2 doesn't. I took a pic and if you look real close you can see the different chips and the A2 one has little ridges all through it.

Bob

[Jake Darvall]

Bob, I'm thinking the problems a small shaving jam situation due to the thicker blade.

In that pic I see wrinkles in the shaving, yes ?,,,,,,well that might mean the mouth is too closed up, which may make sense since the blades thicker.

So, I wouldn't bother regrinding that A2 blade at first.....I'd first try moving the fog back a little , if you haven't already tried......just move back a little at a time ....just until the shaving comes out free-er.....Still want the mouth to be set as close as possible.

Also, I'd consider filing a relief off the front of the planes mouth....uno, from the top your filing an angle to the front of the mouth, to give more room for shavings to flow out.

:)

[tod evans]

bob, i have a hard time with the type of steel in the blade causing the plane to cut differently? i`m with jake here and think the mouth may be a tad tight. while you`re checking stuff check the cap iron to make sure it`s seated correctly. i`d be hesitant to take a file to a bedrock but that`s just me:rolleyes: ....02 tod

[Bob Hallowell]

I had the cap iron to close to the edge of the iron. But not by much. That made er' much better. Thanks guys.

Bob

[Bob Smalser]

I think you're wasting your dough, replacing perfectly good blades.

[harry strasil]

Amen to that statement Bob.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Bob, wouldn't the better steel provide a longer lasting edge? Much like that you advocate for chisels?

As well, one of the features of old Ohio plane irons which make them better than a stock Stanley is the thicker business end. Less chatter, and notably better steel. As old Ohio blades are a scarce commodity, isn't a replacement blade from Hock et al a decent option for those same attributes?

Take care, Mike

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I like having a second blade for a plane. I didn't "replace" my blade, I just found it more economical to have a second blade for the same plane to increase working time. As a general rule, it stays sharper longer, but even A2 is prone to nicking on teak.

[Bob Smalser]

Bob, wouldn't the better steel provide a longer lasting edge? Much like that you advocate for chisels?

As well, one of the features of old Ohio plane irons which make them better than a stock Stanley is the thicker business end. Less chatter, and notably better steel. As old Ohio blades are a scarce commodity, isn't a replacement blade from Hock et al a decent option for those same attributes?



I bought a Hock iron set to try it a couple years ago based on forum comments....a fine blade all right, but performance-wise, it doesn't make any difference at all to me. It certainly isn't going to make a 3lb, 45-degree plane work like a 5lb, 50-degree plane, and there's a lot more to chatter than thick irons. Another half-turn on the mounting screw after the iron is set will cure chatter....if you need two plane adjustments for the job, then use two planes.

There's so much more going on in a plane to get the best out of it that a higher-speed iron set alone doesn't add much incrementally. If your planes are performing significantly better with an aftermarket iron as opposed to stock, then my guess is, either your sharpening or your fettling could stand some work.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Main issue is edge retention in my view, *not* performance. Thicker new-steel blades don't get any sharper than thin. Don't produce better shavings. They do have better edge retention, just like better steel in chisels.

And while I hone the tools in use many times during the day, I'm not opposed to better steel lasting longer--whether that steel is HC [my preference] or A2.

Reduction/elimination of chatter and or simple blade flex on rank shavings is a great by product of the thicker iron--assuming the plane is fettled properly to begin with.

I don't think a plane is a complex device. Fettling isn't rocket science. Neither is sharpening. But thanks for the thought.

Take care, Mike

[Bob Smalser]

I don't think a plane is a complex device. Fettling isn't rocket science. Neither is sharpening. But thanks for the thought.



The reliance on ready-tuned prestige planes, Tormeks, etc, et al among the various hand tool forum participants tells me either they are overcome with brand-name status, could use some coaching, or both. Plenty have sure come by here, and I've tried a lot of high-speed planes.

All this stuff has to have practical application in materials or manhours to be really meaningful. An A2 edge only lasts slightly longer because the steel is slightly harder, and harder steel takes longer to sharpen. You might feel better, but you really don't gain a lot. And blades thicker than the chipbreaker and mounting screw need to prevent chatter are merely excess weight better and more cheaply done in lead if weight is what you want.

Personally, I'm beginning to think the hand tool world is becoming more and more about status and aquisition that woodworking. We're certainly seeing new offerings that have much more to do with collector value than function.

[harry strasil]

Bob, that's why I prefer the old laid on blades that are tapered. The blister steel that was forge welded to wrought iron for chisels and plane blades, is harder than hades and seems to hold an edge forever for me. The soft wrought back gives the thin blister steel stability from cracking and breakage, thus it can be harder and last longer.

I pick up all those old tapered blades I can find as they are going to be a thing of the past soon and unavailable. I do cut some of them up for making blades for my shopmade planes and as replacements for my woody plow plane.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Nah, Bob. Pretty cynical. People post for a multitude of reasons. I think one of which, when new-to-them tools are involved, is to share a common like for tools--new or vintage--with someone who will care. No big deal.

I enjoy reading of people's journeys in using them and would like to think I help somewhat in their use and care. As I am sure you do.

If people choose to share more of the tools they have bought, cleaned and tuned more so than what they do with them...why should I care?

Often, these same people post what is built in another one of SMC's forums, but that doesn't mean they might not have used some of these tools they show here to make it.

An A2 edge only lasts slightly longer because the steel is slightly harder, and harder steel takes longer to sharpen. You might feel better, but you really don't gain a lot
Kind of like using a Witherby instead of a cheap Stanley? Aside from aesthetics and ergonomics, what else is there to be gained hunting for Witherbys and Swans if it isn't to obtain a better chisel who's edge will last longer? Gotta be something as you recommend hunting them down. And they can cost every bit as much as an AI--if not more. But with either, one gets better steel which holds an edge a bit longer than a Stanley.

It ain't about "feeling better." It's about taking less breaks from the work in order to hone a chisel made from putty.

Personally, I'm beginning to think the hand tool world is becoming more and more about status and aquisition that woodworking.
Just beginning? And just limited to the hand tool world? And just in this day and age?

Again, I think it was good someone thought enough of "high-end" tools, say like Disston 12s and 16s, to have paid the premium price way back when so we would have relatively easy pickings in our day. Same with Bedrocks. And infills. And English saws. And Witherby chisels. And Swans. Speaking of which, when I bought my wife a set of Swan turning tools, and adjusted by inflation etc., I think I paid less for a near-new set than the original owner.

So it is today. 100 years from now, when the Stanleys are all used up, I bet there will be people glad that someone bought a premium LN plane so they could pick it up in a flea market for a song.

Take care, Mike
who's done now...

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

The reliance on ready-tuned prestige planes, Tormeks, etc, et al among the various hand tool forum participants tells me either they are overcome with brand-name status, could use some coaching, or both. Plenty have sure come by here, and I've tried a lot of high-speed planes.

All this stuff has to have practical application in materials or manhours to be really meaningful.

In my case, I really started using planes in March, and didn't really decide not to go the power tool route until April. That means I've accumulated a fair number of planes in a short time so I could do a variety of things.

And this is the Great Newbie Problem: sudden acquisition of several planes, and wanting to USE planes. Now, if I acquired one a year (on average) that needed fettling, that'd be one thing. But thirty in three months? I'd never get any woodworking done.

Nearly every plane I received had a severe nick in the blade. Now I *know* how to regrind a blade without power tools (and grinders, but I really hate grinders), but in order to get the planes I'd acquired to work at all, I'd need to spend significant time. I could either get a Tormek and get them done, or be so frustrated spending all my woodworking time doing something I didn't enjoy that I'd give up.

This happened to someone I know, btw.

Well, I got the Tormek, but I'm still not done regrinding blades.... Some of the planes I got a couple of months ago still aren't useful (for a number of reasons, which I'm working through), so the value I've gotten out of these planes sold at a generally good price is $0. So, my question: how were they rationalized in "practical application in materials or manhours"? Answer: they weren't. Period. They could be eventually, but they're not now.

How come the LN's aren't "practical application in materials or manhours" when they work right out of the box with a light honing? Answer: they are.

Now, if I mentioned that some of my woodworking time comes out of possible consulting time, and an LN #4 costs four hours of consulting (pre-tax), maybe you'll see that a few hours spent fettling a plane may make it more expensive than just buying the darn LV or LN plane in the first place.

Me, I'd rather spend time woodworking than fussing around not woodworking.

[Bob Smalser]

In my case, I really started using planes in March, and didn't really decide not to go the power tool route until April.

That long, eh? ;)

Y'all obviously know best, then. If there's anything I can help with, it'll probably be somewhere in here:


Courtesy of Bob Smalser


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[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

That long, eh? ;)

Y'all obviously know best, then. If there's anything I can help with, it'll probably be somewhere in here:

Wow, thanks for all the references.

Yeah, that long. I was a real Normite years ago and it took me a while to realize that a) I could learn to do everything by hand and b) I wanted to learn to.

I'm not in great physical shape. On the one hand, this made me reluctant to go the hand tool route, because it is more physical. On the other hand, I realized it was physical work I enjoyed. I love planing. Until I discovered that, I wasn't really willing to commit to the neander path.

[Bob Smalser]

... it took me a while to realize that a) I could learn to do everything by hand and b) I wanted to learn to.

I'm not in great physical shape. On the one hand, this made me reluctant to go the hand tool route, because it is more physical. On the other hand, I realized it was physical work I enjoyed. I love planing. Until I discovered that, I wasn't really willing to commit to the neander path.

It's not an "either-or" choice between hand an power....and not really about tools at all....it's about making things outta wood.

Don't be afraid to use the power tools where they make sense for your work and your body, and the hand tools where they make sense. Once you learn to split and plane out a board from a tree, you don't have to keep repeating those same grunt skills, and spending too much time there will be at the detriment of fit-and-finish skills where hand tools really come into their own. Think of the basic electric motors as your apprentices, if you like.

Even for those interested more in the history and use of hand tools than woodworking, you'll never come to any real level of skill unless you make a maturing series of completed projects instead of just shavings and simple shop fixtures. Visualization, design, stock selection, measuring, layout, etc, all are tied in to an economy of effort you won't acquire otherwise...where you learn that pushing more tool than you need is wasted effort better spent elsewhere.

[Mike Wenzloff]

The post which begins...

"It's not an "either-or" choice between hand an power....and not really about tools at all....it's about making things outta wood"

is a really good post, Bob.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

It's not an "either-or" choice between hand an power....and not really about tools at all....it's about making things outta wood.

Mike's right -- this is a beautiful quote.


Don't be afraid to use the power tools where they make sense for your work and your body, and the hand tools where they make sense.

It's odd that I made the commitment to hand tools only a few weeks before we moved into a house I'd never seen -- that turns out not to have power in the area we'd designated for my shop. I do have access to some large power tools (and do use them when they make sense), but mostly I have a couple of smaller ones. I'm still having difficulty with hand sawing, and I'm practicing that skill.


Even for those interested more in the history and use of hand tools than woodworking, you'll never come to any real level of skill unless you make a maturing series of completed projects instead of just shavings and simple shop fixtures. Visualization, design, stock selection, measuring, layout, etc, all are tied in to an economy of effort you won't acquire otherwise...where you learn that pushing more tool than you need is wasted effort better spent elsewhere.

I agree about the completed projects. :)

Right now, I'm working on a couple of projects using only hand tools, and a bigger project that's using a mix. As it's gotten hotter, my work has slowed down quite a bit, so I'm hoping we get another cool spell soon. It's almost cool enough tonight to head out to the shop.

[Alan DuBoff]

It's not an "either-or" choice between hand an power....and not really about tools at all....it's about making things outta wood.Already been quoted, but I need to quote this also. For me, I realized that I don't want to spend time dimensioning my timber/lumber, but that I do enjoy working with hand tools. I have a pile of lumber I've dimensioned for a workbench, and to think about dimensioning all of that lumber by hand makes my brain hurt.

I hope to be doing what you're doing now, that is to build a house. No question that building a house is the ultimate woodworking project that one can tackle. I certainly won't be building my house entirely by hand, but I will do hand cut joinery wherever possible.

Interesting to note that in the early 1900s when machines had first progressed to the point that motors were added and flat belts were used, several companies that created powered machinery printed numbers of how much more productive some of the machines were. It should be no surprise that a single machine could do 10x-20x in a day than a person could do by hand.

The best woodworkers work smart, IMO, the lesser work a lot harder.

[Jake Darvall]

. i`d be hesitant to take a file to a bedrock but that`s just me:rolleyes: ....02 tod

:D ...yeh, I know what you mean. It can be hard to modify something that becomes precious I suppose.

Spose I'm a little different. Typical Australian. A lot of us think of tools as just that,,,many of us treat them badly......not very romantic. But, I can't stop thinking, that there's no point in owning a tool that doesn't perfrom well.

I think in the past, I've put a few into shock with some of the things I've done to my planes. :p

Glad to hear you fixed the shaving problem Bob. :)

[Mike Wenzloff]

...Spose I'm a little different. Typical Australian. A lot of us think of tools as just that,,,many of us treat them badly......not very romantic. But, I can't stop thinking, that there's no point in owning a tool that doesn't perfrom well....
I was probably born on the wrong continent then ;)

Never bothers me to alter a tool if it cannot or doesn't otherwise work properly. That's why files were created...

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

An A2 edge only lasts slightly longer because the steel is slightly harder, and harder steel takes longer to sharpen.Yeah, wait til those same folks who couldn't get their Stanley blade sharp, try to tackle the A2...

Even some of the older Stanley blades are VERY hard...getting them in good shape takes some effort. A sharpening tool has nothing to do with power or hand, and many woodworkers will really screw a blade up with either. Wether it be using a power grinder, a water stone, and modern system (Tormek, Lap-Sharp, Delta, Jet, etc...), scary sharp, etc...it's only a means to the end. I personally wonder how any woodworker can not afford to know how to sharpen their tools. Yet there are hordes of folks that have not acheived this skill and even some will buy a new tool rather than learn to sharpen their old ones. Disposable Japanese saws are a good case in point. Not to dis Japanese saws, this is not meant...someone who owns a decent Japanese saw and sharpens it themself should be respected just the same. Many great woodworkers will use a Razor dozuki and just replace the blade once a year. Nothing wrong with that, IMO, as long as they get to their end.

There should be shame in not being able to keep your tools sharp, however one prefers to do that, and stereotyping folks into painted corners is not ideal in the real world either, since there are so many various folks enjoying woodworking with various interest and skill levels.

I somehow suspect that even you would turn your grinder on if one of your chisels gets a big chip in it, Bob. Or would you use a file like our forefathers? They would have told you that you didn't need to buy one of those fancy powered grinders. Yet, the fact is that when powered grinders came along, folks learned that they could save time by using them, and time is after all a very good motivator.

I'm not sure if owning modern tools is a sin or not, and I own new and old of both power and hand tools. If it saves them time, more power to them, or if they enjoy using it more, all the more as well. You do advocate that folks work wood with whatever tools they happen to own, don't you? This is after all the means to the end, where no matter what tools one owns, they use them to craft wood into a finished work.The level of detail folks go to depends entirely on the individual and typically shows in their work as a result. Some use new modern tools to do that, and others use old tools. I can't see how either are bad.

Owning a new handcrafted joinery saw certainly doesn't make me cut joinery any better, yet I like using it, and I do keep it sharp. More importantly is using it so that it needs to be sharpened, and this is the means to the end.

[Jake Darvall]

I was probably born on the wrong continent then ;)

Never bothers me to alter a tool if it cannot or doesn't otherwise work properly. That's why files were created...

Take care, Mike

:D absolutely.

You and Bob having a little disagreement I noticed ? :D

Interesting conversation though.

I can relate entirely with having a hard blade. So, I can see that attraction to the A2 blade. On the kind of hardwoods we work here in Australia, its just pointless using some of the regular stanley blades on them. Just too soft. Blunten up too quickly. Its not a subtle difference either. Just plain obvious. Only just a few passes and your back to the sharpening station again,,,,

I know its slower sharpening a hard steel, but thats no problem if you avoid stones. Doesn't matter how hard the blade is, if you learn how to sharpen to burr on white bench grinder, then straight to hard felt buffing wheel. (IMO)....I practise this regularily shaping blades from old hand files.

I also definetly agree that a thicker blade reduces chatter. Thicker the better I believe. I started a thread on an experiment I tried a while ago....where I put an overly thick matherson iron from an old woodie into a stanley #6
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=23991&highlight=putting+thick+blade

Completely different feel to it, with such a thick iron installed. Solid uncompromising feel quite unlike how it is with those 2mm regular blades. I've noticed thin blades, even when they don't chatter, often flex down slightly on the start of cut with some timbers, and back up again as you leave your stock......uno, can feel it through your hands. Never have that feeling with this overly thick blade. It either cuts or just slides when it bluntens....none of this jumpy behaviour.....But thats just my impression.

But interesting in what Bob Smalser mean't when he said this...

. Another half-turn on the mounting screw after the iron is set will cure chatter.....
Not sure if that always helps, Bob. I've tried all sorts of things when planing certain timbers with a tuned hand plane loaded with a thin blade, including tightening it up.....but it sounds like a good idea to keep in mind. Your basically saying that more tension at the blade edge is required....which means that you'd have to release the screw a half-turn before attempting to remove the blade when its time to re-sharpen.

Sounds like a good idea to reduce chatter. But, why not reduce it more by having a thicker blade ? .....a good half turn on a thicker harder blade sounds much better doesn't it. :D just kidding. Don't take me seriously please.

The only problem I have with new blades is the cost. Which is where Bob's point lies I think. Is the cost worth the improvement, cause you can often get by just fine without them.....

Interesting stuff.

[Bob Smalser]

There should be shame in not being able to keep your tools sharp, however one prefers to do that, and stereotyping folks into painted corners is not ideal in the real world either, since there are so many various folks enjoying woodworking with various interest and skill levels.

I somehow suspect that even you would turn your grinder on if one of your chisels gets a big chip in it, Bob. Or would you use a file like our forefathers? They would have told you that you didn't need to buy one of those fancy powered grinders. Yet, the fact is that when powered grinders came along, folks learned that they could save time by using them, and time is after all a very good motivator.



C'mon, Alan.....you know sandstone grinders have been around a whole lot longer than steel files.

Personally, I think the internet these days is chock full of "tool experts" who couldn't get jobs as basic form carpenters, doing outright harm spreading ignorance and snobbery. While I agree there aren't many bright lines in between, newcomers don't go wrong focusing on completing woodworking projects rather than completing their tool collection.

[Alan DuBoff]

C'mon, Alan.....you know sandstone grinders have been around a whole lot longer than steel files.Oh, do you have one? Would you use it if you chipped a chisel? A file would work, and certainly if someone had a hand grinder it would work, the majority don't.

Personally, I think the internet these days is chock full of "tool experts" who couldn't get jobs as basic form carpenters, doing outright harm spreading ignorance and snobbery. While I agree there aren't many bright lines in between, newcomers don't go wrong focusing on completing woodworking projects rather than completing their tool collection.Sure, this has always bothered you. But the world is comprised of a lot of different people. It shouldn't bother you what folks spend their time on. Some folks get excited about tools, some actually buy them for resale (not me, I admit), and others want a complete collection of LN planes.

Do you believe that all folks would desire a job in basic carpentry? I certainly don't, and more so feel that this is yet a great example of how different minds think. I've worked basic carpentry jobs in the past, as I have plumbing...but things like crawling under 75 year old houses to hacksaw off the tops of rusted out cast iron drainage pipes is not something I would wish on anyone, or knocking out showers to fix the framing in the wall where water has damaged it, laying subfloors in bathrooms, etc...yet this is the type of basic carpenty work that someone would get tossed...

Seems someone around here bought about 200 old chisels on ebay to put together a set of users. Does this make it wrong for you? Or do you speak from experience of wasting time doing so rather than spending it on projects in themself?

[Bob Hallowell]

sorry, didn't mean to start a fight. I was just having a bonehead moment and asked for alittle help. I was the cap iron set a littlt to close now she take quite nice shavings.
I didn't pay much for the 604c either just $10 at an antique store. I tuned her up quite nice. I would not have paid the $200 dollars it normally cost to get one. I hope to find more this way.
I live in a small town in Pa and don't have access to nice woodworking stores and don't know anyone around that is profiecent in handtools to give me lessons and tips. Sometimes people in my situation need to bite the bullet Like I did with Mike's saw just to see what a particular tool should work like. you can read all you want on the internet but without the feel it hard.
I have been a power tool guy for awhile, and over the last year have been buying some old planes, saws, and chisels. and finding incorporating these into my projects are making them turn out nicer and more satisfying.

Bob

[tod evans]

bob, you`ll find that hand-n-power tools mix well. if your bedrock is of the round top design and you later decide you want to trade it in on a ln or lv plane i use and collect the early corrugated bedrocks and may be interested? .....02 tod

[Richard Niemiec]

[quote=. . . .I've accumulated a fair number of planes in a short time so I could do a variety of things. . . . . . thirty in three months? I'd never get any woodworking done. . . .[/quote]

Do I understand you have bought 30 planes in 3 months and none were "used"? You must be one of LN/LV's best customers..... <slight plane envy here>.

regards.Rich Niemiec

[Jake Darvall]

Personally, I think the internet these days is chock full of "tool experts" who couldn't get jobs as basic form carpenters, doing outright harm spreading ignorance and snobbery. .

:D boy, you don't mind a fight Bob....but, I know where your coming from....

I guess, there's only so many hours in the day. If somebodies fascinated by blades, tools and sharpening and puts his time there,,,,well

Same problem with some carpenters I know......I work with some on the occational job.....plenty of them don't know where to begin with sharpening a tool.....One bloke I new, with all his experience, thought it was good enough sharpening a blade by dragging it along the cement....

He thought that was just fine,,,,,rarely used the chisel of course, cause it was hard to use.....and stood back in shock when he borrowed my chisel, clipping a rafter, when he forgot his chisel one day......:D

But, I do know where your coming from though....bothers me sometimes too.....There is plenty of old tools out there already to cover everything one needs.....The new stuff mostly isn't necessary.....but still nice to own them though eh:D

[Jeff Horton]

Originally Posted by Bob Smalser

Personally, I think the internet these days is chock full of "tool experts" who couldn't get jobs as basic form carpenters, doing outright harm spreading ignorance and snobbery. .



:D boy, you don't mind a fight Bob....but, I know where your coming from....

Heck, he is right! Someone like Bob, who does this for a living. is published in at least one national magazine posts something and 5 other so called experts have to tell him his wrong, why it won't work, a better way to do it..... just pick one. When most of them don't do it for a living and are probably just glorified tool collectors. Yes Bob, you hit the nail on the head.

There are a few people that I really respect and when they speak, I LISTEN! But they get so little respect they don't post much and I don't blame them. IT is a terrible loss to those of that come to learn from them.

Now I am going back to my corner and staying out of this.

[Mike Wenzloff]

sorry, didn't mean to start a fight.
...snippity snip...
Bob
Ah, Bob, you didn't start nothing. Mostly a bunch of us trying to get points across in a PC-sorta way. Beats a brawl down at the tavern [I'd lose that anyway <g>].

Sometimes I use new, sometimes vintage. I, like everyone else I know, have a mixture of both. Same with powered tools.

It is efficient to use a mix of both. Heck, most of these coveted vintage tools were made with powered tools anyway. Whether line-shaft power or electric once that day came. The Shakers had a fairly mature view of using both human and non-human-powered tools.

Now that the shop is closed down, I find myself on the side of less powered tools than when the shop was going. Sort of came full circle as I grew up using hand tools near exclusively. Over the years leading up to the shop, there was still more hand tools used than powered tools. The shop changed that.

Now I consider myself a hobbyist again. I cannot say I enjoy the process more without the powered things. I enjoy making things from wood no matter how.

I buy tools as the mood strikes or time allows based on need, with a little of want thrown in. Many times those tools are vintage for the savings, sometimes they are new. With the new ones I make sure they are the best I can afford, something which doesn't enter much into a decision with vintage. That's based upon interest, availability and brand--and how much effort I want to put into it.

The fundamentalism of extremes or of different philosophies will often cause a stir. Much of the time people ignore it, sometimes not. The main thing is to clearly decide on what we as individuals want to do and set about doing so. Even in disharmony there are often truths to take to heart. Bob S.'s and Harry's clearest messages were made into a million-dollar slogan: Just Do It.

Hate to see that get lost in all the positioning.

Take care, Mike

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Personally, I think the internet these days is chock full of "tool experts" who couldn't get jobs as basic form carpenters, doing outright harm spreading ignorance and snobbery. While I agree there aren't many bright lines in between, newcomers don't go wrong focusing on completing woodworking projects rather than completing their tool collection.

Okay, I KNOW I couldn't get a job as a carpenter, but then again neither would I want one: I'm a desk jockey at heart. :) Okay, well, a computer geek, which usually involves a desk.

I know my tool collection's not complete, but I don't worry about it, I'm worrying about finishing my shaving horse instead. I did buy a couple of specific tools for that, including a big auger bit.

[Alice Frampton]

published in at least one national magazine

I congratulate you on managing to preserve your innocence, Jeff. Publication doesn't actually mean much at all except someone got paid for their opinion. Often to see it subsequently edited out of all recognition, but that's another topic... I imagine anyone who's actually "doing" isn't going to have time to fool around writing articles and posting all over the various hand tool fora. What are they? Some kind of keyboard jockey?

That's not how I feel about it, but it's no more than what some folks suggest is the case with reference to others. Funny how it's so often the folks who complain about too much tool talk who pop up for arguments like this that don't have anything to do with woodwork at all.

Tsk, and I was going to let this horse Rest In Peace too. Shall we all go and make like woodworkers now and stop faffing about annoying each other?

Cheers, Alf

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I imagine anyone who's actually "doing" isn't going to have time to fool around writing articles and posting all over the various hand tool fora. What are they? Some kind of keyboard jockey?

That's not how I feel about it, but it's no more than what some folks suggest is the case with reference to others.

Well, you know, some of us ARE keyboard jockeys, who may be held up on a task (waiting for a long test run, waiting for the latest graphics from marketing), etc., and therefore gabbing with the buddies on SMC (or elsewhere). Sort of like a global virtual water cooler.

[Bob Smalser]

Publication doesn't actually mean much at all except someone got paid for their opinion.

That's my point....you should strive to develop an opinion worth paying for.

And you only get there from here by putting the entire woodworking package together, not just a small piece of it.

[Alice Frampton]

Bob, my point is that someone paying for something doesn't necessarily mean it's good/right/accurate. In the case of an article it might just happen to fit what the editor wants at that moment. I'm not suggesting this in reference to any particular articles, just a general belief that something being published doesn't make the author the last word on the subject. They might well be of course, but not because they've got an article in a magazine.

Cheers, Alf

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm personally staying out of this one. My only comment is that occasional well argued differences of opinion are healthy for the community. The only caveat is that folks stay within the terms of service and "play nice".

[Bob Hallowell]

I made new curly maple knob and tote. It has it's new a2 blade plus a LN cap iron. all in all a total of $65 invested but definitly my favorite plane!

Bob

[Mike Wenzloff]

Nice tote 'n' knob, Bob!

So how's it working?

Take care, Mike

[Chris Barton]

Bob, my point is that someone paying for something doesn't necessarily mean it's good/right/accurate. In the case of an article it might just happen to fit what the editor wants at that moment. I'm not suggesting this in reference to any particular articles, just a general belief that something being published doesn't make the author the last word on the subject. They might well be of course, but not because they've got an article in a magazine.

Cheers, Alf

Welcome to SMC! Your "brothern" Peter lives here in Nashville these days and thrills us all with great music.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Welcome to SMC! Your "brothern" Peter lives here in Nashville these days and thrills us all with great music.
Hah, do you feel like I do?

Frampton Comes Alive was a good album. Still have my original LP...and use it...Take care, Mike

[Chris Barton]

Hah, do you feel like I do?

Frampton Comes Alive was a good album. Still have my original LP...and use it...Take care, Mike

I WISHHH I still had that album! I met Peter about 9 years ago when I first lived in nashville (I am a "returnee," someone that learnedhow to appreciate the town) and have had a couple of occasions to see him and speak with him since. What a nice chap!

[Mike Wenzloff]

I recently digitized it, cleaned it up a tad. It was an album with great production value, something which wasn't always true of the 1970s.

I saw him "recently" via TV doing a special or an appearance of some sort. Cannot remember the occassion. I like the acoustic side of him, which was mainly the focus of what I saw. Though a bunch of my music was ripped off in 1980 or so, and I sold off a bunch several years ago, I still have somewhere north of 2 to 3 thousand recordings--but that is the only Frampton album.

Though I have and always will like rock, my main love is jazz and blues. My first jazz album was I think in 1971, Herbie Mann's [I]Push Push. Duane Allman on guitar.

Ah memories. Eh? What's that? Oh, the whip is cracking for the second shift...

Take care, Mike

Edit for OT content: I sharpened the blade for my smoother today, a thick Hock <g>...

[Corvin Alstot]

Still have my original LP...and use it...Take care, Mike

Way off topic . . . but I hope you got it in 1959!

[Mike Wenzloff]

Way off topic . . . but I hope you got it in 1959!
Yep, OT like a conversation.

Frampton was 9 in 1959...But Comes Alive was released in 1976.

If Mann's Push Push...I believe it was released in 1971...I don't think Duane Allman was playing in 1959...

Take care, Mike

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Where's WaltQ when you need him? :)

[Alice Frampton]

Confession time - I don't have any of his albums at all. :o

When I was a kid I had a teacher who eagerly asked me "You're not related to Peter Frampton are you?", presumably lining up all the autograph requests and such in her mind. I'd never heard of him and in all innocence said "Yes. He's my cousin and lives in Canada. He works in a bank." Just for a split second she must have thought...

Cheers, Alf

On Topic content? Erm... nope, sorry.:o