Help, unable to get good cuts on TS...

[Dan Lyman]

Hi,
When I rip stuff on my TS (left tilt unisaw), the pieces do not come out square. I cut the wood to length on a miter saw before ripping. With plywoof, I just use factory edge. I noticed this on a recent sheet goods project. Looking back, I think this may have always been the case too. It appears to be about 1/16th" over 12" or 13" long piece of wood. I have used 3 different inexpensive squares to check this and there is slight variation amongst them, but none of them call things square.

I have tried several methods to verify that the blade is parallel to the miter slot. I'm pretty sure that it is. I have used dial indicator first. The tested again using cross pieces of wood with a screw sticking out the end to touch the same tooth at the front and again at the back after rotating the blade around.

I have fiddled with the fence and the miter slot and gotten them parallel to each other. Seems to be a little resistance pushing the wood through the blade and a little bit of burning.

If I angle the fence back at the far end (opening it up from the blade), it will no longer be parallel to the blade, at least if I did my measurements correctly. I will try this in the morning just to see what the cuts are like.

I also cut all 4 sides of a small piece of plywood using the stock miter guage and the corners seemed to much more square, though not perfect. This could be due to slippage as I made the cuts though.

I checked the fence (beisemeyer) face and it seems straight.

I am confused and not sure what I'm doing wrong. Any suggestions? Something doesn't add up but I'm not sure what.

Sometimes it just helps to talk things out

Thanks

Dan

[Mark Rios]

Dan, please be very careful when cutting with a blade/fence that you KNOW is not aligned properly. This is EXACTLY how bad things happen with misaligned saws. You might want to rethink this.


Just my 2 cents.

[Frank Hagan]

Sounds like you're doing everything right, so my "advice" might be worth what you pay for it!

For ripping, you will need the rear of the fence out just a bit to prevent binding, but when feeding the stock you are pressing slightly toward the fence in front of the blade, so you'll be OK. It shouldn't cause you to have a tapered rip cut.

It might be technique when feeding the stock. I have a tendency to rotate the back end of the board toward me, and away from the fence, as I'm feeding it through (found this out by the spectacular kickback that can produce). I use a finger board to maintain even pressure on the stock in front of the blade. Rockler has the one in this pic for $6.99 right now (I bought a wood one for about that price on sale, and have used it for years). Something like that may help you determine if its technique or the saw.

[glenn bradley]

I VERY rarely consider the factory edge of sheet goods as suitable for a reference edge. If the factory edge is real close I may use it to rip slightly over sized and then use my newly cut edge as a reference to correct the factory edge. This way I can get a decent set of parallel edges.

Secondly you mention that you cut to length before ripping. I rip to width and then cut to length once I have long parallel edges thereby getting a good square cutoff. Keep in mind that I am just a hack-hobbyist. Some of our more prolific amateurs or professional members could probably comment on this with years of experience behind their technique (I always enjoy hearing how they do what they take for granted and I struggle to achieve).

If I can pull it off with my 1970's Craftsman and Align-a-rip fence, the Unisaw/Bies combo should work very well. As someone else mentioned; you may want to check your setup. I know you've checked the fence but it doesn't hut to go through the process. Blade parallel to miter slot, blade parallel to fence, fence parallel to miter slot. 1/128 over four feet is close enough for me, 1/128 over 4 inches is completely unacceptable. IMHO.

[Don Morris]

A plywood factory edge might not be the best test. What happens when you use a recently jointed edge of hardwood done on a jointer that you have tested to make sure the fence is at right angles to the jointer table. After running it through a planer of course. I recently bought some $110.00 furniture grade Maple plywood, and the "factory edge" wasn't "perfect". Close, but not "perfect".

[Richard Wolf]

Are you sure the problem is not with the miter saw. I'm on mine everyday and know they can be a PIA to keep square in 3D. If it's a slider it adds additional problems. I would check those cuts first.

Richard

[Brad Townsend]

It doesn't sound like this is your problem, from my own experience, I would encourage you to check the fence face with a reliable straight edge again. Probably a long shot, but worth a try. I used mine for two years until I realized that it was the fence that was the problem, not my tecnique. You can get a replacement fence face from Bies. In my case, they sent me one for free, even though it was out of warranty.

[Lee Schierer]

Since you have a dial indicator, you can easily check your fence alignment to the cross cut slot. Take a piece of wood and attach it to the miter gage. Then using a wood screw, attache the dial indicator to the block of wood. Move the fence over and lock it in place where it will touch and slightly engage the tip of hte dial indicator. With the miter gage at the front edg of your table, set the reading to zero. Now slide the miter gage across the table and watch the reading on the dial indicator. It should stay at zero. You should be able to tell if the fence is parallel or not. It will also tell you if your fence is flat.

My preference is to have the fence exactly parallel to the blade. Never closing in. A slight (we're talking .001-.005") tailing away is fine. Much more than that will lead to poor cuts on long pieces.

[tod evans]

dan, you talk about square in regards to the ripfence? a tablesaw and ripfence should cut parallel, the parallism isn`t relevent to the miter slot. if your saw isn`t able to cut parallel surfaces using the fence it`s most likely opperator error by letting the board loose contact with the fence. i find it easier to have the fence toed out by a small amount, some prefer dead parallel to the blade but either way when passing wood through the blade held tight to the fence it`s almost impossible to not cut parallel. square comes into play when you crosscut your parallel rip......02 tod

[Tom Jones III]

[quote]When I rip stuff on my TS (left tilt unisaw), the pieces do not come out square.

When you rip, pieces should come out parallel, not square. If you measure the width of the piece after ripping, is it a consistent width? If so then the ripping setup is correct.

>> I cut the wood to length on a miter saw before ripping.
There was a thread yesterday and an even better thread a few months ago. It might be a little hard to get the search to come out well on this topic, but I think most (maybe all) of us are not able to get furniture quality cuts from a miter saw. I've got an excellent miter saw that I spent quite a bit of time setting up and I cannot get furniture quality 90* cuts.

>> Seems to be a little resistance pushing the wood through the blade and a little bit of burning.
Keep working on it then, there is something wrong and you won't get the best results until this is solved. There should be zero burn on plywood and most hardwoods. Don't forget that a quality blade freshly sharpened is important.

>> I also cut all 4 sides of a small piece of plywood using the stock miter guage and the corners seemed to much more square, though not perfect. This could be due to slippage as I made the cuts though.

The above seems to be a key statement. For testing setup I have a piece of 3/4" ply with the sides as long as my good square. Find a way to clamp it down to your miter gauge and pass it through. How does it look after cutting all sides?

It sounds like you are on the right track. Keep working on it and you will be glad that you did. What you are learning now will lead to much better furniture. People don't seem to talk about this topic much and for us new to ww'ing it seems like something that everyone else gets without effort. I think a lot of people got their saws setup and learned best practices a long time ago and then forgot the effort they went through initially.

[Dan Lyman]

Thanks everyone, looks like some good advice here. I will do some further playing around and see if we can narrow things down a bit and let you know.

Dan

[Dan Lyman]

Hey again,
I was able to play a bit before going to work. Maybe I'm getting slower as I get older.

The miter saw was off a bit verically, which could have played into the problem some. I used a jointed board this time and confirmed the squareness of edge and face after jointing. After ripping I was able to confirm the sides were parallel. Used tape measure, calipers, and flipped the cutoff end over end and butted it up to original piece and they all indicated the the sides were parallel.

I rechecked (thousandth time) the blade is parallel to the miter slot and the fence is also paralel to the miter slot.

I measured the fence face and it is well below .003 according to the feeler guages, and I didn't have a thinner one to use.

I still get a bit of noise and a litle undo pressure when ripping narrow pieces. I will try tweaking the fence again to se if I can make it smoother.

I measures the miter slot an it is a constant width, does not vary.

So, I guess the saw is doing what it's supposed to do on rip cuts. The squareness issue must be all me. I will rethink my process, such as cutting to length after ripping and maybe squaring up the edges of plywood before starting and using feather boards on rips.

Any other ideas welcome. Hoefully I won't have to bring this one back up agian, :rolleyes:

[tod evans]

dan, i always try to rip long lengths then crosscut. if you need to crosscut first do so oversized,rip then cut both ends...02 tod

[Chip Olson]

Are you using the stock blade guard/splitter? Make sure the splitter isn't out of alignment and throwing your cuts off. Got bit by that one recently on my 22114 after cranking it over to 45° without taking the 0° ZCI out first; oopsie.

[Tom Jones III]

Too much pressure required for a rip sure sounds like either a non-flat fence or a dull blade.

Glad to hear about the progress.

[Dan Lyman]

Tod,
now that I'm reasonably sure the rips are parallel, I'll take your advice and do final crosscuts after ripping. Thanks

Hey Chip,
I made the cuts with and without the splitter. Same result. It's the aftermarket Delta quick release splitter btw. I had the same idea this morning. Thanks


Tom,
I agree, and am still a bit leary of the setup. I plan to play with the fence alignment some more to see if it makes a difference. Before that though, I'll chec to see if the blade is dull. Haven't had it sharpened yet so who knows. I may try cleaning it as well. I do have a new freud rip blad I can try as well. Thanks