Teak sofa progress...I hate teak!

[Mark Singer]

Well after about 45 hours my ears are ringing from a loud planer...most of my tools need sharpening....my eyes a little tired of the hand cut mitered dovetails ....Did I mention I hate teak? Ask any hardwood supplier and milling teak is 2 times the cost of any other wood....try planing some and you will know why! It is super abrasive and between the oil an the grit it will eat your knives and they get loud! Can you hear me? I can't. The wood also has a tendency to split without cause on joinery and other places...
I have wedged through tenons and mitered dovetails in 6/4 material on the arms. Mitered dovs are only sawn by hand and you have lots of chances to screw up since every surface is exposed (unlike half blinds where you just show one pretty face)...the miter is also handsawn. Dovetails in 6/4 will not allow room for error because in 1 1/2" everything shows....so I took about 1 1/2 hours for each of the arms....which is very slow even for mitered doves...If the miter looks bad the joint looks terrible. I decided on this piece to use my LN dovetail saw which has always taken a back seat to my old great Taylor Bros. saw...After using the LN for this I must say it is an excellent saw! It saws beautiful! After I cut all the joints with the LN ...I cut one more with my beloved Taylor Bros...and it is still my favorite.
These pics are before finish and just lightly planed and sanded... It eats sandpaper too!
I won't flip my knives till after I finish with the teak! My friend Chris Feddershon , a instructor at Palomar called me and gave me some tips. After talking to him I changed to West Systems for all the important joints. He said if you use TightBond glue it right after milling or the oil will cause a joint failure. I will never undertake such a challenging project with teak! It is not enjoyable!
The structure is all mortise and tenon ....mostly made on my new MM Elite S Combo Mortiser. It worked great!
I used a variety of planes...LN 164, LV Bevel up jack and smoother...The LN 102 block...and the Knight Coffin smoother which was great!

[Mark Singer]

here is another teaky pic:confused:

[Jamie Buxton]

Teak?! You should fire that designer.

[Mark Singer]

Teak?! You should fire that designer.

Jamie ...I am crying...I changed it so much I feel like its mine now?:confused:

[John Miliunas]

So Mark, tell us how you really feel about Teak!!! :eek: :D That notwithstanding, those joints look absolutely fantastic! I have to believe it's gonna' look wonderful once you're done with it! :) :cool:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark.......I know you hate working with teak.....that withstanding ....you're surely showcasing your craftsmanship! Excellent! You have more patience than I!

[Alan DuBoff]

Mark,

Chill overnight and things will be ok. Joinery looks fine. Take 2 wacks to the thumb with your ball pein, and you'll forget about it...

Teak is very oily, which is the very reason it's used on boats extensively, it's pretty tough wood. Many of the larger yachts have teak decks also, it adhere's nicely in wet condition with deck shoes (can be hard on bare feet...DAMHIKT).

Very few if any knots, and the ones I have seen are small it's an interesting wood.

With that said, and you certainly have much more woodworking experience than myself, but I like teak with soft edges, because of the tight grain it feels wonderful with soft, rounded edges. The dovetails look nice, IMO, but are sharp joinery. Greene & Greene used quite a bit of teak, or shall I say the Hall Bros. used a lot of teak, in the utlimate bungalows. It looks fantastic. But they used it with soft finger joints that excentuated the joinery with soft edges. It works well in that setting, IMO.

The design you have shows very sharp edges, and is a much more modern design. Maybe another wood would fit better in that situation.

I happen to like teak a lot, as I do purple heart, hickory, paduk, and various rosewoods...but most all of the hardwoods are difficult to work with.

If you want wood that's easier to work with, try to steer your clients to walnut and maple! :p

Walnut has always been one of my faves, it turns, cuts, and pars just so fine...I was at my Mom's not long ago and saw a walnut bowl I turned back in high school, it still feels so nice and soft, even today...it just had danish oil on it, polished up on the lathe...

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I love teak, personally. I can get 8/4 teak shorts for less than wide maple costs me in 8/4, so I'm using it fairly liberally these days.

It loves planes, too. Nice to work, for the most part. Just wipe the joints with acetone before gluing, that's all. Yes, it requires more sharpening, but so do any of the super-hard woods.

I know it's heresy, but I'm considering making the Enfield Shaker Cabinet out of teak (since our dining table is teak and it would go in the dining room).

My favorite domestic is cherry, but I'm learning to love walnut.

[Norman Hitt]

Beautiful Joinery, Mark. It will really hold the frame together solidly. What will the upholstery and the finish be? It'sa gonna be NICE when it'sa done.:D

[Karl Laustrup]

That design is fantastic Mark. The joinery is first class, as I would expect it to be coming from your shop.

While the teak is a pain to work with, I've a feeling the finished product will be stunning. :)

Karl

[Tom Sherman]

Just have one word for ya Mark WOW!

[Mark Singer]

I love teak, personally. I can get 8/4 teak shorts for less than wide maple costs me in 8/4, so I'm using it fairly liberally these days.

It loves planes, too. Nice to work, for the most part. Just wipe the joints with acetone before gluing, that's all. Yes, it requires more sharpening, but so do any of the super-hard woods.

I know it's heresy, but I'm considering making the Enfield Shaker Cabinet out of teak (since our dining table is teak and it would go in the dining room).

My favorite domestic is cherry, but I'm learning to love walnut.

What is a good natural finish? I was thinking of just Briwax....What do you use?

[Bob Childress]

Mark,

That is gorgeous work, as usual!!! You know, you ought to consider doing this for a living:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

BTW how do you like working with teak? :D

[Richard Wolf]

Great work Mark. They sell teak oil as a finish, maybe that's an outdoor finish only.

Richard

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Nice exposed joinery. Nice lines.
I am partial to Danish Modern too.
Why are you hand cuttiing the miters?

[John Downey]

Hi Mark,

Man, I hear ya (figuratively). Great looking work though lots of extra pain!

I made a teak entry door last year, knowing it would dull my blades, but not prepared for how fast. Only flattened and thicknessed 100 bdft of stock, mixed 8/4 and 4/4, and I should have changed the planer blades near the end too. Ended up having to sand out a bunch of burnish marks that wouldn't have been there if I'd not wanted to ruin another set of blades.

Still, it was the best wood for the project and looks great when done. This thing is now a south facing door in the Tucson heat, and I do honestly expect to have to do some tweaks sooner or later. If it were anything but teak I doubt it would hold up more than 5 years, since the house has no shade over it (yeah, I know, but a ramada would have "spoiled the designers vision" or some other version).

For finishes, wax should be good. The people I made the door for put a coat of teak oil on every six months to a year to maintain the color rather than let it go grey. Before anyone points out that teak oil is just thinned tung oil finish, yeah I know, but its the easy way to get the homeowner to remember what to buy at HD and not coat the thing with poly!

Great looking work once again, I think you'll find it well worth the effort- especially once its done!

John

[Lori Kleinberg]

What ever you say. I think it looks great. Can't wait to see finished project.

[Mike Hill]

Great work Mark. They sell teak oil as a finish, maybe that's an outdoor finish only.

Richard

My wife and I did over 7K miles on our Island Packet Sailboat in 2001/2002. Keeping the teak nice was a real project along with the stainless brite work.For the Teak in side the boat (and it was a bunch of teak) we used Teak Oil purchased at West Marine. You can order it on line or go to one of their stores. I believe it was called "golden" teak oil. In any case, we simply wiped down the teak every few months with the oil and it kept it beautiful and protected. Some salt water got into the boat and the oil withstood it with no problem. After several coats it has a nice sheen. Here are 2 pictures of some modifications we had done to the boat by a local cabinet maker in Kema Texas. Hope this gives you an idea of what to expect if you go the oil route.
Mike


42931

42932

[Mark Singer]

Nice exposed joinery. Nice lines.
I am partial to Danish Modern too.
Why are you hand cuttiing the miters?
The blend to the first pin and it starts on the edge of the pin and tail board....so it must be done by hand

[Rich Torino]

Mark,
that is truley a skillful job.. Looking forward to seeing the finished product.....

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Teak oil from West Marine, just like Mike. :)

[Dan Larson]

Beautiful work, Mark!

We use "Scand-Oil" on our solid teak indoor furniture.
http://kilian.stores.yahoo.net/scandoil1.html

I don't know what's in it, but it's well suited to the naturally oily hardwoods.

Dan

[Carl Eyman]

I've done a lot of teak work, but none on the level of your work. To finish it I used Watco's Teak Oil. It seems to have more body than Watco's regular oil and is for indoor use, or so I think. Much of the teak work I've done is now 30+ years old, and is extremely low maintenance.

[Mark Singer]

Thanks...I made a sample with Watco Teak oil and it looks very good! That is what I will go with... Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Robert Mayer]

Considering the price of teak around here theres a lot of other cheaper stuff out there. I like it, but not enough to pay $20 a bf for it.

[Scott Coffelt]

Impressive as always.

[tod evans]

well executed mark! i think watco is a good choice too. try their finishing wax...02 tod

[Don Baer]

Excellent work Mark, but I expected nothing less from you. Your remarks about teak reminded me What Sam Maloof said when the lady at the work shop asked him if he would make a piece out of any wood the customer requested. His answer was "If I like the wood".

[bill walton]

Mark,
Before you get to far with the watco, at least check these out. The inside of my boat is teak finished with this stuff which I think is teak oil with a bit of varnish mixed in. looks great and lasts along time. http://www.dalyspaint.com/catalog_conditioners.html

[John Scarpa]

Mark,

I liked your sketch and it's a treat to see it come to life in your shop. Your skill with a back saw is very impressive. those joints look very tight. I bet you've cut a fair amount of dovetails and it shows. When I first acessed this site I pent a fair amount of time learning how to set up a shop. Now I find my self spending time reading and thinking about design. Gee I wonder who influenced that? :)

John

[Gail O'Rourke]

Mark,
Gorgeous, I love the design and your execution is perfect. Good work.

Sorry to hear of your troubles with the teak. I haven't worked with it but will keep your comments in mind if I do.

[Roy Wall]

Wow!!!........those joints are tight! The oil will definately highlight the excellent craftsmanship.........

This why another client wants YOU to build ALL the furniture in her house...:cool:

[Mark Singer]

Mark,
Before you get to far with the watco, at least check these out. The inside of my boat is teak finished with this stuff which I think is teak oil with a bit of varnish mixed in. looks great and lasts along time. http://www.dalyspaint.com/catalog_conditioners.html

Bill,
I love Daly's products and have used them for years! Most of my homes furniture is finished with Daly's Ben matte....I will try a sample. The Watco teak oil sample looks really good. I have the SeaFin also

[Mark Singer]

I really appreciate the comments . To me modern furniture without hand crafted joinery is a bit flat... It may have great simplicity and proportion, but it speaks of the earlier Danish veneered panel stuff that was popular in the 50's , 60's and even now. It is wonderful practicle furniture , but does not celebrate the crafstman or the tree... When we look at Nakashima we see the celebration of the tree! It is still living in a piece of furniture....a natural edge which feels solid as solid wood should and joinery that celebrates the art of the crafstman. In Krenov, we see the continuation of the Scandanavian roots of design, and added is the celebration of the detail and the skill of the crafstman. This is the embodiment of truly great design and the expression of a single craftsman making, fitting and crafting each piece in a special and careful way....it speaks the language of hand built and this takes a well designed piece to another level.
The mitered dovetails on the arms are a very natural expression....like the fingers grasping the corner...metophorically...Like the statue of Lincoln seated in the seat...his fingers bent over the arm... The miter adds continuity and allows the piece to flow. A simple through dovetail will not look nearly as correct.
This is the language of the crafstman....the fluency to chose the best joint for both structural and esthetic reasons and to not be intimidated to execute it. This fluency allows a woodworker to express the detail and the feeling of solid wood which acknowleges ..."the tree"
Yes, I had a headstart on sawing starting with my Father as a child ...we only had handtools and an electric drill... Everyone starts somewhere and I have gotten better over the years by practicing...Mitered dovetails in thick boards are among the most difficult joints...yet with practice it is manageable and worth learning... It is the same skills as for all joinery...layout, marking, baseline scribe, cutting on the waste side...etc...This practice allows you to speak the language and chose the detail and make the piece really special...

[Matt Guyrd]

Mark,

I do a lot more reading and learning on SMC than I do posting, and for good reason. Please forgive my lack of knowledge in questioning.

The design is intriguing and I have always enjoyed the creative work of artists of all kinds, and your work is no exception. I really enjoy reading/viewing your posts.

Aside from the intricate joinery and it's execution, what really jumps out at me is the seemingly floating arm and back-rest upper and lower rails (not sure if this is the correct terminology). I am curious as to how strong these elements are, particularly at the back corners. Do the corners flex if weight was applied? We all know the proper position on a sofa for our derriere, but what if some galoot with one too many glasses of wine at a cocktail party decided he needed to rest his legs and sat on this arm/back piece? Regardless, it's a cool piece that makes me think.

Did you use the wedge through tenons at the corners, or another joint?

Thanks for sharing...please do post more shots after you decide on, and apply, a finish.

Matt

[Mark Singer]

Mark,

I do a lot more reading and learning on SMC than I do posting, and for good reason. Please forgive my lack of knowledge in questioning.

The design is intriguing and I have always enjoyed the creative work of artists of all kinds, and your work is no exception. I really enjoy reading/viewing your posts.

Aside from the intricate joinery and it's execution, what really jumps out at me is the seemingly floating arm and back-rest upper and lower rails (not sure if this is the correct terminology). I am curious as to how strong these elements are, particularly at the back corners. Do the corners flex if weight was applied? We all know the proper position on a sofa for our derriere, but what if some galoot with one too many glasses of wine at a cocktail party decided he needed to rest his legs and sat on this arm/back piece? Regardless, it's a cool piece that makes me think.

Did you use the wedge through tenons at the corners, or another joint?

Thanks for sharing...please do post more shots after you decide on, and apply, a finish.

Matt


Matt, this is an excellent question and something that plaqued me through the construction. Matt the large cantilvevered corners are surprisingly strong. I sat on the lower one on the corner...no problem! The upper one is very solid also. I think even the upper would support a person...although I am afraid to try it. The original Schindler design was quite fragile and the pieces have been repaired and are only from redwood whick is not a strong wood.
The approach to the problem was to stack the rear elements so the full stretcher would be supported and the weight transfered to the bottom rail. I used 3 tenons and epoxy ....I also had long grain to long grain working for strength. That made the back long members into moment resisting beams... The arms were very dificult! First imade the mitered dovetails with the arms and returns left long. The rear joint was a blind loose tenon and it made assembly of the upper arm very difficult. I needed to start the tenon...hook over the bisquits I used in the front leg (top and front ) and slowly tap into place without breaking the mortice out! One important thing to remember is tenons can be shorter in the dirrection of the grain....so 1 1/4" is penetration is enough.....crossing the grain it penetrates about 2 1//2"... I dry fitting I split the side of a mortise with a tiny crack.! On final glue up I did one arm side and then clamped to the long stretcher.....did the second side ...unclamped and clamped all together....it was tough! I added a small clamp to repair the tiny split at the same time...with the epoxy it is fine and very strong.
There was no other way in my mind to assemble the arm/ strecher piece and the dovetails really needed to be made first! The wide lower arms have 3 - 3" screws and a tiny rabbet to seat them at the verticle interface wit the front leg... This with the epoxy developed the full strength of the wood the transfers throgh the dovetail. The doves are just glued with TightBond..2 ...the joint itself does a lot of the work. The same is true of the wedged through tenons which do not really show in the pics. These carry the front beam stretcher.... i used ebony wedges...and that is a strong joint and easy to make.

[Jim Hinze]

Mark,

I've watched in wonder how this piece as evolved and now sits in it's current state. What a marvelous piece of work.

I get the slight impression your not fond of teak :D .. However, it looks wonderful. I can't imagine that piece in any other wood.. it seems to have been designed for the materials and the materials for the design... I guess that should be the goal of any piece...

[Chris Padilla]

Good stuff as always, Singer! When ya holdin' an SMC gathering? :D

[Mark Singer]

Good stuff as always, Singer! When ya holdin' an SMC gathering? :D

Chris come down lets gather:) I will fire up the BBQ and we can sip on a Red...or Pilsner...and make a dovetail or a chickentail:confused:

[Chris Padilla]

Chris come down lets gather:) I will fire up the BBQ and we can sip on a Red...or Pilsner...and make a dovetail or a chickentail:confused:

Ah, the infamous Singer chickentail joint! I can't wait...the kid needs to visit Legoland one of these days so we may just pop in!

Oh, got any stout on hand?! I may be close to the Napa Valley but I don't indulge in any of their product.... :eek: