Who's right on bandsaw upper guides: Bird or Duginske?

[Andy Fox]

Mark Duginske in his Band Saw Handbook (1992) says that most 14" consumer bandsaws have upper guides/thrust bearings that need to be readjusted everytime the upper guide height is changed.

But, Lonnie Bird in The Bandsaw Book (1999), says he wouldn't even buy a bandsaw with this "problem," and he even shows a diagram illustrating it! Does he really mean, "I wouldn't buy a really expensive European saw with this problem?" :D

Which expert is right?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Maybe both. I grew up using Do-All and Grob bandsaws.
They have a variety of guide systems from the bearings and the solid guides and the solid guides with a bearing in back of the blade.

The cheap saws may have a height arm that is simply not at all true to the table or the path of the blade so when you move it the back of the guide is in a new place with respect to the blade.

However, if that's not an issue for you in that you are perfectly happy to re-set the guides, then why let some author make it one. It's your money he's trying to spend.

[Kyle Kraft]

How about a quick inspection to check the perpendicularity of the upper guide slide assembly to the table? It seems to me if the axis of the guide assembly is perp. to the table in all axes (sp.) then you shouldn't have to readjust the guides yes no?

[Mike Cutler]

Both are right, and neither is wrong.

I have a Jet 14" bandsaw. Prior to putting the riser kit on it. The upper guide bearing required very little fussing with. The riser kit required that a different guide bearing set up be put on it.
With the longer guide post the amount of error is magnified quite a bit.
If you go from top to bottom, you will have to mess with it. This is just part of the benefit of the economical price.

My Rikon 18" has the same issue, but not as great. You have to check the guides after it has been retensioned, after it hasn't been used for a bit. Once agian the price to pay for the economic savings.

Lonnie Bird is definitely on a level of woodworking that I'll never achieve. His requirements for machine performance are much higher than mine. Whether or not an "expensive european bandsaw" has this problem I can't answer. Some other folks here on the board should be able to though.

It comes down to expectations of machine performance for the cost of the machine. If I spend $4K on a bandsaw, versus $500 I expect a lot more performance, and tighter machining tolerances out of the $4K machine.

Mt .02 fwiw.

[Andy Fox]

Cliff, would you expect a new top of the line ($700-$1000) Delta, Jet, or Powermatic 14" bandsaw guides to have this "problem"/inconvenience?


How about a quick inspection to check the perpendicularity of the upper guide slide assembly to the table? It seems to me if the axis of the guide assembly is perp. to the table in all axes (sp.) then you shouldn't have to readjust the guides yes no?
Kyle, assuming table is square with blade that's correct. I think the issue is that the guide axis is not perpendicular to the table on many bandsaws.

Mike, were the new upper guides included with the riser kit, or was it an aftermarket accessory that you had to buy separately to help resolve the readjustment when changing height issue?

[Mike Cutler]

Andy.

I installed Carter Guides when I put the riser kit on. Be prepared to shim the riser block. The matching faces of the riser block, and the original bansaw faces were not 100% true, and the top guide was not perpindicular to the bottom set of guides, nor in exactly the same plane. The lower guides on the Delta have the thrust bearing closer to the underside of the table. I machined a new lower guide bearing mounting block so that I could configure the Carter Guides for the Jet to be closer to the underside of the table.
On mine the upper guides would move towards the frame as they were lowered. Not much, but enough that the guide bearings would have to be adjusted if to large of a step change was made.

It took a lot of "fiddlin" with my Jet 14" to get it working properly, in my opinion. It works well now but I've put a lot of work into it. It was Jet's top of the line model when I bought it.

I never could get the Jet 14" to resaw properly. It could cut thin venner okay, but it just wouldn't bookmatch a piece of material with any consistency, so I purchased the Rikon 18" solely for resawing.If you are looking to add a riser kit and resaw for bookmatching on a 14". I wish you better luck than I experienced.

My personal suggestion though is to set your sights a bit higher for a bandsaw. A nice well made bandsaw is a great addition to a shop. You'll use it more too.
If I were to add up all of the money I spent on my two bandsaw's, and factored in my efforts to remachine parts, and resolve bad design issues. I might have looked at machines in a considerably higher price range than either of mine.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, would you expect a new top of the line ($700-$1000) Delta, Jet, or Powermatic 14" bandsaw guides to have this "problem"/inconvenience?

If PM did it I'd be dissapointed but then again General trashed their tails on the mortisers. so maybe PM is droipping the ball.
Delta and jet I'd not buy expecting top of the line. I'd expect to have to modify the machines to get 'em to run right. That would not have been true 30 or so years ago.
Old delta is good stuff.

[Loren Hedahl]

I have one of the last Delta 14's that came with a 'Made in USA' tag. It is accurate in that respect. It's a good machine for it's size.

However, I also have a 12 inch Craftsman (aluminum frame model) that needed the guides readjusted when increasing or decreasing the blade exposure. A year or so ago I spent a morning filing and shimming and it is great in that respect now as long as you stick with narrow blades. The frame strength doesn't allow tensioning of wider blades without developing a bit of twist.

So I keep both saws. One for heavier work and the other with a narrow fine pitch blade for finer work. Convenient not to have to do many blade changes. Works for me.

[Mark Pruitt]

I remember reading that comment in Duginske's book, and I am somewhat mystified by it as it has not been true in my experience. I have a Delta 14" BS and I have never found it necessary to readjust either the guide blocks or thrust bearings when simply changing the height of the upper guide assembly. I do check them every time, but I only have to make adjustments when changing blades.

[Larry Conely]

I had a Yates American 16 inch band saw for many years. The guides never required adjusting unless a blade change was made. I recently replaced it with a Powermatic 14". One reason I selected Powermatic is that it had all the whistles and balloons already, including the Carter guides. My limited experience so far is that the Carter guides do not require readjustment unless a blade change has been made.

Larry

[Dick Strauss]

There are two basic issues with my Delta 14" bandsaw and similar designs.

How true does the height rod travel perpendicular to the table top along its 6-12" path (assuming the blade is also perpendicular to the table)?

How much does the rod height adjustment channel allow the guide mechanism to rotate? They have made the tightening bolt slot wider than it needs to be to allow for easier movement. This introduces some rotational play in the guide assembly. If your guides are set pretty tight to the blade, this tends to take care of itself as you tighten the handle. If the guides are set loosely, this can be more of a problem because it allows for more rotation.

[Andy Fox]

After returning my other problematic bandsaw (failed thrust bearing, etc.) I purchased the Delta X5 thinking it would solve all of my problems (and maybe bring about world peace? :confused: :rolleyes: ) if I paid twice as much. :rolleyes: The Delta is overall a nice machine, and it has held up well, but the upper thrust bearing is out of parallel with the blade by 1/8" over the entire 12" of travel (with riser block). The guides are out of parallel by 1/32" or so. I just got the Iturra Design catalog (great resource!), and it looks like I may have to order a few shim kits to shim the upper wheel out (not coplanar now), and the tracking arm to the right. You'd think Delta would include the shim kits and shim instructions in the manual.

The way any cast iron saw is made--with 2-3 separate castings bolted together with ground mating surfaces--I just don't see how the upper guides could ever be parallel with the blade unless someone is just lucky or adjusts tracking for this purpose.

Anyway, Delta is really going above and beyond expectations by sending me an entire upper casting, along with other parts for vibration problems, to assist in my seemingly futile quest for bandsaw perfection. :o

If the new casting and shimming don't work, I just might drill and tap some new setscrews to adjust the guidepost angle. :cool:

[Andy Fox]

There are two basic issues with my Delta 14" bandsaw and similar designs.

How true does the height rod travel perpendicular to the table top along its 6-12" path (assuming the blade is also perpendicular to the table)?

How much does the rod height adjustment channel allow the guide mechanism to rotate?

I haven't really noticed any post rotation on my saw, but interestingly, the back of the blade is about 1/16" out of square with the table when tensioned and tracked as coplanar as possible. More evidence that the new casting just might be at least part of the solution.