New dozuki ruined after just a few dovetails?

[Jason R Tibbetts]

I'm a novice woodworker. Yesterday I bought a rip-tooth dozuki and attempted some hand-cut dovetails on some 1" ash. After the first cut, I felt the saw catching in spots, and when I looked at the blade, I saw that about 2" worth of teeth had broken off. After a few more, almost all of the teeth were broken. What did I do wrong? Is ash the wrong wood to try this with?

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Jason,

You probably didn't do anything worng per se, unless you tried to speed the cutting with undo pressure.

Ash and Oak are particualrily difficult woods with inexpensive Japanese saws. I don't know where you picked up the saw. Joel at Tools for Working Wood sells a couple Odate saws which are still inexpensive but are decent Japanese saws for dovetails.

Take care, Mike

[Jason R Tibbetts]

You probably didn't do anything worng per se, unless you tried to speed the cutting with undo pressure.

Ash and Oak are particualrily difficult woods with inexpensive Japanese saws. I don't know where you picked up the saw. Joel at Tools for Working Wood sells a couple Odate saws which are still inexpensive but are decent Japanese saws for dovetails.
I picked mine up at the local Woodcraft. I got the one that was closest in price (~$40) and description to this one from Lee Valley: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32935&cat=1,42884

Should I admit defeat and buy a new blade and some softer wood, or should I try to get my money back for it? I don't think that I was applying undo pressure, but because this is my first pull-cut saw, it's hard to know.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Jason,

I would attempt to get my money back and buy the following:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JS300.XX&Category_Code=TSJ

It's made for hard woods--but on the other hand, if you do get a replacement blade in exchange, I would purchase some Poplar for practice. Even Cherry would be an easier wood on the saw.

fwiw, one shouldn't need to actually apply pressure. The saw won't really cut much faster and one always risk breaking the teeth on these saws.

I know Pam and Dave also have some saws they would recommend for when they see this thread. The ones they recommend may be a tad more expensive, but may also be better saws for the long term.

Take care, Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

Jason, this shouldn't happen in cutting dovetails unless you hit nails and/or knots. I suspect you got a bad saw and would try to return it.

When I started out with Japanese saws, ryoba specifically, I was trying to rip things like old, very hard red cedar 2X4's. I immediately broke one. The problem was three fold: 1) I was applying too much pressure to overcome binding; 2) trying to work too fast; and 3) ryoba shouldn't be used for large ripping jobs because the trailing crosscut teeth muck up the cut, caused me to not be able to hold a straight line.

For a good dozuki for not outrageous prices (not a hand made one), try the LV Professional Dozuki ($50). That saw worked great even though it's not a rip, very fast cutter. Also, Rob started selling the Japanese rip dozuki for $75 that he highly recommended. I haven't tried it since I'd already moved on to the hand made rip versions, but I only did it to check out the difference, not because the professional dozuki let me down in any way. You can look at the LV list of dozuki at http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=42898&cat=1,42884

Pam

[Dave Burnard]

Out of curiosity, which saw did you buy? The saw from Lee valley apppears to be a crosscut dozuki which has talller more fragile crosscut teeth that will be slower on the essentially rip cut of a dovetail.

So make sure the saw is designed for dovetails (rip or modified dovetail teeth) and has an appropriate TPI. Sawing 1" ash with a 7" 25 TPI saw will be slow. Gyokucho has some 9" rip/dovetail dozuki's in the 20 TPI range (example) (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=19.303.0&dept_id=13085). Other places carry them but sometimes it's hard to find the right variation.

Broken teeth in a replaceable blade saw are usually the result of the combination of applying too much saw pressure (the weight of the saw is sufficient) and starting the cut by sawing away from corner of the wood so that only one tooth is in contact with the wood. If this is your first experience with a pull saw you may need to rethink how you start your cuts and/or how you position your workpiece.

Good Luck.

[Alan DuBoff]

I'm a novice woodworker. Yesterday I bought a rip-tooth dozuki and attempted some hand-cut dovetails on some 1" ash. After the first cut, I felt the saw catching in spots, and when I looked at the blade, I saw that about 2" worth of teeth had broken off. After a few more, almost all of the teeth were broken. What did I do wrong? Is ash the wrong wood to try this with?No problem, just buy a new blade! That's why they're disposable I guess, you just replace it with a new one and call it a day.;) With a western style saw you could have just sharpened it, but then again the teeth wouldn't have broke in some oak or ash...:rolleyes:

[Alan DuBoff]

I suspect you got a bad saw and would try to return it.I think you're serious, right? You're saying because the teeth broke it was an inferior saw? The disposable saws are fragile, that doesn't seem out of the norm.

And it doesn't seem unusual that it won't handle oak or ash, most of the disposable blade dozuki saws are not capable of it. Sure, a more expenive Odate or Mitsukawa will handle that type of wood, and you spend more $$$s for those also.

There is no right or wrong, IMO, we all use what works for us. Those disposable saws work ok for a great deal of folks that are patient in hardwoods. Those fortunate with better saws that are more suited for hardwoods don't have that problem at all, AFAICT.

I clearly see this as operator error in the conditions it was being used, for better or worse. Know your tools and know their limits, and friends don't let friends cut hardwoods with a disposable dozuki.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Teeth should not break in sawing dovetails, period. This is such a minor cut, zip zip you're done, there's hardly any connect time with the wood, certainly not enough to gather harmful force. I think Jason got a defective saw.

Pam

[Mike Wenzloff]

See Jason--told you Pam and Dave would be along!

Listen to them as they have a much, much broader experience than I do with Eastern saws.

It seems there is a consensus as well that maybe too much pressure was used, so whether you get a replacement blade or a new saw, allow the saw to cut at its own speed. The way the teeth are shaped actually prvide the appropriate feedrate for the saw being used. The only pressure one should use with an Eastern saw is to maintain contact in the cut, and that is as much technique as anything.

Take care, Mike

[Dan Forman]

Jason---I think the link mike was trying to give you was this one. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JS340.XX&Category_Code=TSJ

This is the newer version, the other one is discontinued I believe, or at least has not been available from the web site for some time.


Dan

[Brian Kent]

My Dozuki is from Rockler, their $42.99 Dozuki Dovetail saw. After about a dozen dovetail cuts in poplar it had a half-dozen teeth missing. They replaced the blade and gave some advice after replacing, but I was already using soft wood, a steady cut, and light pressure. It was just a bad blade.

They gave me the new blade and I have made 12 hardwood dovetail boxes (oak, purpleheart, walnut) and a dovetailed night-stand with 3/4" oak, with no teeth missing. I appreciate the good customer service and I'm glad to know that the blades were supposed to last longer than that first one did.

I am highly satisfied with that saw and with my $30 Ryoba (I think from Japanwoodworker), which has cut through a double thickness of 8/4 purpleheart with no damage (and right on the line).

[John Kempkes]

Good to see things were taken care of.

I still prefer the Western saws, in fact, I have a weakness for them :eek: especially the Norse Woodsmith ones :) http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/Pamella/IMG_2422.jpg

[Pam Niedermayer]

See Jason--told you Pam and Dave would be along!

Listen to them as they have a much, much broader experience than I do with Eastern saws....

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mike; but Dave Burnard knows much more than I about all things Japanese tool. He even forges his own chisels and plane blades in a fuigo, a Japanese style charcoal forge.

Pam

[Dave Burnard]

He's trying anyway ;) Thanks for the kind words.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

While I'd love to own saws from Mike Wenzloff or Lief (Norse Woodsmith), I have a western set from Tim Hoffman plus a LN dovetail saw.

http://static.flickr.com/53/136656853_b139585384.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/77/184638768_c3529198cb.jpg

[Rolf Safferthal]

I'm a novice woodworker. Yesterday I bought a rip-tooth dozuki and attempted some hand-cut dovetails on some 1" ash. After the first cut, I felt the saw catching in spots, and when I looked at the blade, I saw that about 2" worth of teeth had broken off. After a few more, almost all of the teeth were broken. What did I do wrong? Is ash the wrong wood to try this with?

The most reasonable thing might be a bad blade but....

....it might have been too much pressure especially on the pushing stroke (no pressure at all!)
....it might habe been a mechanical deformation of the teeth, for example from the saw falling down and bent teeth, especially if one tried to bend them back! The sawblade´s steel ist quite brittle.

My experience comes from a year of sawing European Beech which is pretty hard too. Lost one tooth of a Dozuki due to bending the tooth. Handle these tools carefully!

[Jason R Tibbetts]

My Dozuki is from Rockler, their $42.99 Dozuki Dovetail saw. After about a dozen dovetail cuts in poplar it had a half-dozen teeth missing. They replaced the blade and gave some advice after replacing, but I was already using soft wood, a steady cut, and light pressure. It was just a bad blade.

They gave me the new blade and I have made 12 hardwood dovetail boxes (oak, purpleheart, walnut) and a dovetailed night-stand with 3/4" oak, with no teeth missing. I appreciate the good customer service and I'm glad to know that the blades were supposed to last longer than that first one did.

I am highly satisfied with that saw and with my $30 Ryoba (I think from Japanwoodworker), which has cut through a double thickness of 8/4 purpleheart with no damage (and right on the line).
Alright, yours is the post that's convinced me to return mine. I'd like to at least believe that my problems weren't 100% caused by user error. 99%, maybe. :)

Just to clarify things, the one that I purchased is item #C on this page:

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=850

[Mike Wenzloff]

Well Pam, it's all relative. You know way more than me. Like you, Dave's more than kind in sharing what he knows.

It's a win-win for the rest of us. You speak from the reverence of a user, he too, but also from the point of view of a maker.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

Alright, yours is the post that's convinced me to return mine. I'd like to at least believe that my problems weren't 100% caused by user error. 99%, maybe. :)

Just to clarify things, the one that I purchased is item #C on this page:

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=850
Jason, I've had one of those saws for a couple years without incident--but one of my sons used it the other day and promptly took a couple teeth off. While I wasn't watching him closely when it happened, out of the corner of my eye I didn't see nor did I hear anything amiss. He is well versed in western saws and this was perhaps his second time using it.

I like mine enough for how I use it, I'll pick up another blade when it is convenient. Luckily the teeth which snapped off are at the end and so it is still usable.

Take care, Mike