Do you have the Jointech system

[Bob Michaels]

I would appreciate responses from Creekers who have the Jointech system and I would like to know if they would buy it again. If anyone has the digital fence or digital lift, do you think they are worthwhile. Also, has anyone used both the Incra system and the Jointech, and which one do you like. Thanks.

[Jeff A. Smith]

I have the router fence (the Cabinet Making System with the SmartFence). No, I wouldn't buy it again.

Here's some reasons why:

1) I never use it for dovetails, and wouldn't. Too slow, too much setup.

2) I never use the offset feature to edge joint a board. Use a jointer for that. Even a cheap one properly set up works better than a router with an offset in the fence.

3) The warranty. Mine has a design defect where you have to hold down the lock handle slightly to get the incremental micro adjuster to adjust. I showed it to someone from Jointech at a trade show and they said I could "probably" get it fixed if I sent it back.

4) The warranty. I had a Smart Miter that was screwed up (it warped) and they wanted $90 to repair it. (The phenolic board wasn't flat.)

5) The OTHER GUY'S warranty. Ever heard the warranty on a Woodpeck.com supplied Incra product? To paraphrase: "If it ever fails during normal use, simply return it for a replacement or repair." There's no "probably" in there, AND it doesn't have to be a manufacturer's defect. If you're using an Incra jig that you bought 10 years ago and it fails for any reason -- you're covered.

Bottom line is this... If you're considering the Smart Fence, ask yourself how many of the "wow" features you'll end up using in the real world. Mine is used as a straight edge zero-clearance fence -- nothing more. If you find yourself in that position, you'll know you spent too much for a router fence. (I did.)

And I hope I don't get flamed because "it clearly says blah blah blah on the Jointech site" (regarding their warranty). I don't care what it says. I've had real-world experience (2 products, 3 separate times) trying to get stuff repaired and replaced. It doesn't leave you in a good spot. And I'm not talking about problems that are minor inconveniences or aesthetic issues -- I'm talking about warped surfaces and improperly machined gears.

My advice: Get something else.

Jeff

[Bruce Benjamin]

I would appreciate responses from Creekers who have the Jointech system and I would like to know if they would buy it again. If anyone has the digital fence or digital lift, do you think they are worthwhile. Also, has anyone used both the Incra system and the Jointech, and which one do you like. Thanks.

I'm sorry I can't offer a specific opinion about the Jointech fence system but I can offer an opinion about their customer service. I bought their Smart Miter sled and not only was it the biggest waste of money I ever spent but the customer service was by far the worst I've ever received. I dealt primarily with the owner of the company and it was like dealing with a brick wall. The details to the story are long so if you're interested you can read it here http://groups.google.com/group/Jointechwoodworking/browse_thread/thread/0493ae1dba64fe55

I realize that some people have had good luck with them and even like their products but the experience I had was so unbelievably bad that I think there's something seriously wrong with Jointech. Not only with their customer service when something really goes wrong but also with their quality control. Go with another brand. I don't care if it has something nobody else does or if the price seems unbeatable or whatever, if something isn't right with what you get you may end up having the same experience I had. This wasn't just one of those, "Everyone drops the ball once in a while" cases. It went on and on with plenty of opportunity for thing to get worked out. There was nobody above the owner to deal with. I'm out hundreds of dollars and the sled now just sits on my wall as a reminder to never get fooled that way again.

Bruce

[Dan Lautner]

I had a similar problem with them. I had a clearly defective part that they would not admitt fault for. After 4 or 5 calls I simply gave up and swore never to spend one cent on any jointech product agin. I have also heard a similar story from my cousin who had a problem with the company giving support on a product.

Dan

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

I think anything I might have said has already been said...

[Mark Pruitt]

Hmm....sounds like, with reviews like these, not only are you geting an inferior product but you possibly won't have anyone to call at some point in the future when more of these kinds of stories make the rounds and nobody is buying this product anymore. Wake up, Jointech!

[Brian Gumpper]

I have both the router table fence and smart miter. I have not had any issues yet so can't speak to customer service. Here are my opinions.

I should never have bought the router table set up being I knew I wouldn't be doing jointery on it. Offset fence can be nice when doing stuff like bullnose profiles where the material the comes out past the bit is a little narrowing than the original stock.

As far as the miter sled, my first instinct was to just the Jessem slider and I should have. The sled is convenient miters but way overpriced for what you get.

So, to sum it up. If I didn't purchase spontaneously, I wouldn't have bought either of them.

[JayStPeter]

I have the Jointech Cabinet Maker and had the Incra Pro. My personal experience is excellent customer service from both (and, yes, I've had problems with both). I have a Woodpeck plunge lift, so I don't have any experience with the Jointech digital lift.

In choosing between the Jointech and Incra right now, there are just a couple differences.

Positioner:
It used to be the fine adjust on the Jointech was significantly better, but the LS positioner has addressed that. The Jointech positioner has an anti-paralax feature (I'm not sure if Incra copied this on their LS). It is essentially two cursor lines, one on each side of the plastic cursor piece. If you line them up with the mark underneath, you are right on. It is pretty easy to hold your head to the side a little and be off by a 32nd and mess up a joint. The auto-centering feature on the Jointech is not real useful, I still use the Incra centering method.

Templates:
The Jointech templates are color coded and easier to use. The Incra templates require more understanding of the process. But, I find the added understanding I got from the Incra has enabled me to do some interesting things (non-symmetrical joinery).

Fences:
This is where the biggest difference in the two systems shows itself. First and foremost, the basic Incra fence is not useful as a general purpose router table fence, only as a joinery fence. To compare apples to apples, you must compare the Incra with wonderfence to the Jointech. The basic Incra fence has too small of an opening to do much with other than joinery. Even with a bunch of modifications, I found it less than ideal and managed to bend one of them.
Both the Wonderfence and Jointech fence look like good general purpose fences. The jointech gives you the option of zero clearance, which is nice. I have made a bunch of inserts with different sized openings for when I don't want zc and it works well. I hate the offset "jointer" fence feature of both. It's a waste considering the complexity it adds to both fences for something I don't/wouldn't use. Ultimately I chose the Jointech because the fence is extremely beefy and less complex than the Wonderfence. It doesn't need to be disassembled to do joinery and reassembled for general use. The wonderfence is also based on the same pro fence I bent. I don't know how I bent it as I treated it pretty well. The second managed to stay straight for a while until I sold it, but I treated it like it was made of glass. In fairness, I modified it by making the bit opening bigger, so that does weaken it.

On dovetails and joinery:
Neither of these systems is good for "production" joinery. If you are building a bunch of drawers, just about any other dovetail jig would probably be faster and easier. But, they do the nice, decorative joinery for one off boxes and such pretty well.

The Jointech (and probably Incra/Wonderfence) makes an excellent general purpose router table fence. The micro adjust feature is great, as is the repeatability.
I chose between the two by going to a woodworking show and actually test driving both of them. Both companies are very good about demoing and letting you play. If you can, try to get to a show and test them out. I don't think you can choose one you won't like.

Jay

[Brian Knodel]

I was shocked to read so many negative reviews, I assumed (wrongly) that Jointech owners were a happy bunch and had bought the system for a particular purpose as I did. I'm very happy with my system and my dealings with the company were excellent. My system came minus one UHMW strip, but one email and I had the part promptly. I agree that set-up can take some time but I'm a hobby worker and time is not as important to me as it is others. The learning curve will also take time but once you have it under your belt future set-ups go faster.

I am currently working on a small spice box and had many 1/4 inch dovetails, both half blind and through to make. I'm very happy with my first time results and was quite surprised that one could make repeatable, well fitting dovetails just by lining up a cursor.

Very sorry to hear about all the others with negative results. If had the choice to buy mine over again I certainly would
<O:p
Brian
http://www3.telus.net/wood/may28a.jpg

[Bruce Benjamin]

I was shocked to read so many negative reviews, I assumed (wrongly) that Jointech owners were a happy bunch and had bought the system for a particular purpose as I did. I'm very happy with my system and my dealings with the company were excellent. My system came minus one UHMW strip, but one email and I had the part promptly. I agree that set-up can take some time but I'm a hobby worker and time is not as important to me as it is others. The learning curve will also take time but once you have it under your belt future set-ups go faster.

I am currently working on a small spice box and had many 1/4 inch dovetails, both half blind and through to make. I'm very happy with my first time results and was quite surprised that one could make repeatable, well fitting dovetails just by lining up a cursor.

Very sorry to hear about all the others with negative results. If had the choice to buy mine over again I certainly would
<O:p
Brian


As I said in my previous post, I know some have been happy with both the product quality and the customer service. No company is perfect. But sometimes the mistakes a company makes, even if they're few, are so bad you realize that they're just someone you can't risk dealing with. Kinda like the guy who only killed a few of his many friends and acquaintances. The people he didn't kill were pretty happy with him. :D Heck, he only killed a few of them. The experiences I had with Jointech products and customer service were serious enough that they wouldn't be just a fluke or a one-time problem. The errors they made were numerous and in different areas. Looking at the other replies to this thread, a potential new customer has to ask them self if they want to risk being seriously ripped-off or inconvenienced when there are other choices available. Assuming people believe what I've said and what the others have said about Jointech, why would you want to give a company like that your money anyway even if you did think you'll get a good product? I don't buy gas from Exxon because of how they handled the Alaska spill. I don't buy products from France because of how they've treated us. If I had just read this thread and didn't know about Jointech I wouldn't do business with them either. Everyone has to decide what they feel comfortable with though.

Bruce

[rick fulton]

Bob -

Although the SmartLift Digital and the Incra LS Super System prices seem over-the-top, i accepted them as presents from SWMBO last year. Gloats on all three counts.

I have had no problems with the lift, and would purchase one again if I lost this one. The beauty of it is in the repeatability of the height setting. Bit changes can be done easily from above the table. It can be zeroed out within seconds after installing a new bit. It remembers the zero point (flush) and last height setting forever. I often leave the same straight or dovetail bit in the router for weeks. It is great to just walk up to the table, dial in the height I need, and then go for it.

I've had no problems with the Incra either. I love the micro adjustment feature and the sliding scales for starting at a known zero point. But I don't know if I would buy one again, there are so many other features I have not used (yet). In addition, the Incra (and Jointech, i think) fences require a much larger table top to take full advantage of their positioning systems. The added horizontal surface requirements would not be so bad if it could be easily integrated with a tablesaw extension table, but therein lies the 2nd problem - the fence positioner mounts to the table top with 6 screws. Adding your own quick release system helps make table top space contention a non-issue.

Customer service issues aside, these two companies are both producing unique products that compete head to head in features. It's a tough decision; hope you have good luck with whichever product you purchase.

rick

[Sam Chambers]

Bob, I have both the Jointech Saw Train and the Smart Miter. The issues I've had involve setup - A that's probably due to my inexperience as much as anything. I've used my Saw Train on 3 different saws - A Shopsmith, a Delta contractors saw, and now my Unisaw. I think I have a problem with something being twisted. It's a rail or the Smart Fence itself, but I haven't had a chance to diagnose it yet.

As for the Smart Miter, I think it's a great idea, but I just can't get it adjusted correctly. I have one more idea, and if that doesn't work, I may sell it.

I've never had an issue with Jointech's customer service. In fact, shortly after receiving my Saw Train, I had a few questions and called them. I got Terry Adams on the phone, and he talked me through a few things. He even stayed late that night to help.

[Brian Gumpper]

I have had no problems with the lift, and would purchase one again if I lost this one. The beauty of it is in the repeatability of the height setting. Bit changes can be done easily from above the table. It can be zeroed out within seconds after installing a new bit. It remembers the zero point (flush) and last height setting forever. I often leave the same straight or dovetail bit in the router for weeks. It is great to just walk up to the table, dial in the height I need, and then go for it.

The digital lift is nice. If you do dovetails, you can zero out the bit height, make your test custs until you get the results you want, then read the number on the display. Wright that number on the bottom of the bit with a Sharpie and you are good to go. Next time you want to make that dovetail, zero the bit agan and adjust height until you get to that number written on the bottom of the bit, perfect every time. No more test cuts.

[rick fulton]

The digital lift is nice. If you do dovetails, you can zero out the bit height, make your test custs until you get the results you want, then read the number on the display. Wright that number on the bottom of the bit with a Sharpie and you are good to go. Next time you want to make that dovetail, zero the bit agan and adjust height until you get to that number written on the bottom of the bit, perfect every time. No more test cuts.

Brian -
Great idea.
Thanks!
rick

[Lewis Perry]

I have the smart fence system--no, I would not buy it again--way to much set up time and hassle for dovetails

[Brian Gumpper]

Brian -
Great idea.
Thanks!
rick

Wish I could take credit Rick but it was the Jointech guy that showed me that. His technique for zeroing the bit too was to slide a piece of wood over the bit and increase the height .001" at a time. Once the bit catches on the wood, back it down .001" and that is your zero.

[Terry Flowers]

I relish the opportunity to chime in about Jointech's customer service, and it also isn't nice. The only Jointech product I have is the Smart Miter, and it is the only one I will ever have.

I bought it when it was first in production. I had a problem with the slick tape that sticks to the bottom falling off. I will admit that they promptly sent replacements along with a new miter scale because I thought mine was not accurately placed. Those were two inexpensive items, and that is where the customer service ended.

I noticed at a subsequent wood show that they had changed the sled to a different type of surface, very smooth, and mine was rough and not condusive to the adhesive tape sticking. I called and explained that I felt that the one I had was like a prototype that didn't work out, since they had abandoned the original sled material, and requested that they replace it with the new type. I got nowhere. Even though they were not legally obligated under the warranty, it is just bad business to leave customers dissatisfied with their product.

As someone else mentioned, I have had exactly the opposite experience with Incra and Woodpecker. They have been more than willing to rectify any problem that I have had, including replacing my saw fence that I complained was not perfectly straight. They sent a new one and did not even ask for the old one to be returned.

Terry

[Bruce Benjamin]

I relish the opportunity to chime in about Jointech's customer service, and it also isn't nice. The only Jointech product I have is the Smart Miter, and it is the only one I will ever have.

I bought it when it was first in production. I had a problem with the slick tape that sticks to the bottom falling off. I will admit that they promptly sent replacements along with a new miter scale because I thought mine was not accurately placed. Those were two inexpensive items, and that is where the customer service ended.

I noticed at a subsequent wood show that they had changed the sled to a different type of surface, very smooth, and mine was rough and not condusive to the adhesive tape sticking. I called and explained that I felt that the one I had was like a prototype that didn't work out, since they had abandoned the original sled material, and requested that they replace it with the new type. I got nowhere. Even though they were not legally obligated under the warranty, it is just bad business to leave customers dissatisfied with their product.

As someone else mentioned, I have had exactly the opposite experience with Incra and Woodpecker. They have been more than willing to rectify any problem that I have had, including replacing my saw fence that I complained was not perfectly straight. They sent a new one and did not even ask for the old one to be returned.

Terry

Exactly. They claim that there's a lifetime warranty. I did everything I could to prove to them that there were numerous flaws with my sled, even sent it back to them at my expense. All I got was denial, arguments, and bewilderment from the owner/inventor. It was a nightmare. I never lost my temper or was rude to him but he raised his voice to me on more than one occasion and even hung up on me once. He just couldn't seem to believe that one of his products could possibly have any problems, let alone several. He couldn't understand half of the simple concepts I pointed out. It was almost like he was in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease. I've unfortunately known a few people with this disease and this is what it was like. Very frustrating dealing with someone lacking in certain mental capacities like he appeared to be. The rest of his crew that I talked to at one time or another, (3 or 4 others) weren't much better but he was the person I dealt with 90% of the time.
Glad I don't live anywhere near Texas or I might be in jail right now...;)

Bruce

[Warren White]

As for the Smart Miter, I think it's a great idea, but I just can't get it adjusted correctly. I have one more idea, and if that doesn't work, I may sell it.


Sam,
I have the Smart Miter and really do like it. I use it for making very precise miters for picture frames.

As for adjustment, you must start with an absolutely parallel blade to miter slot. If it isn't, I don't think you can get there from here.

They talk about using a dollar bill to adjust the distance between the sled and the blade. I didn't like that, and went to a feeler gauge. I think I used about .010 and carefully adjusted until it was tracking from one end of the sled to the other. I just took the slack out of the screws; adjusted the sled; backed the sled up and tightened up the exposed screw. Then I checked the adjustment and moved the sled the other way and tightened up the exposed screw on the other end. You can also carefully lift the sled off the table and tighten the screws once you have it set.

I have gone back from time to time and checked the tracking and made adjustments, just like I go back from time to time and recheck all of my power tools.

I hope this helps. I really like my sled and use it all of the time. Once in a while I wonder why I didn't buy a Osborne miter because I wouldn't loose the depth of cut, but that is just one of those learning experiences.

Best of luck,
Warren

[Sam Chambers]

I hope this helps. I really like my sled and use it all of the time. Once in a while I wonder why I didn't buy a Osborne miter because I wouldn't loose the depth of cut, but that is just one of those learning experiences.My biggest frustration with the Smart Miter is that you can't adjust it while it's sitting on the saw. Whenever I pick up the sled, no matter how careful I am, it goes out of adjustment. I've been looking a the Osborne EB-3, and I like their adjustment system better (at least in theory.) Of course, it doesn't have the automatic 1/2 degree repeatability of the Smart Miter, so there's definitely a trade-off.

[Dave Fifield]

Like Rick above, I have a Jointech SmartLift Digital router lift and an Incra LS fence system. They both work flawlessly and I'd buy both of them again. I love being able to control my router cuts to within 0.001" (or better). The only thing I'd ask Jointech to change is to make the inserts from a harder material - they are made of fairly soft plastic (good if a bit goes wild I guess, but this has never actually happened to me yet).

Dave F.