Panel saw

[Bob Huddleston]

Has anyone made a panel saw? Bought one? Am tired of trying to cut four by eights with a circular saw, or, even more dangerous, ripping them on a table saw. Thanks.

[Neil Clemmons]

I use a guided circular saw and find it works very well. Mine happens to be Festool, but there are other alternatives. I find for the times when I need to break down full sheets of plywood it does a very good job and yet does not take a lot of shop space or effort.

If you want to build a panel saw, the current issue of Shopnotes has plans for making one - it looks very well built with a bill of materials list of around $350 plus a circular saw. Issue is Volume 15, Number 88.

Good luck -

Neil

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I built the other style of panel saw that was in Shopnotes about 15 years ago. It's a very clever design and works well. The plans and kit are still available from Shopnotes at http://www.woodsmithstore.com/panelsawkit.html

Over the years, I made a couple of minor improvements, but overall, I'm happy with it. It folds up to fit flat against the wall, and the circular saw can be removed for handheld work if needed. The kit and wood are probably around $275 not including a circular saw. Here's a pic from Shopnotes website...

-Jeff :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/panel-saw-kit-6804p400.jpg

[glenn bradley]

I envy you guys that cut enough sheet goods to make this an issue. No sarcasm. I really need to spend more time making stuff and less time fixing up the shop. Hey, I've only been here about 9 months, maybe I should give myself a break(?).

[Todd Schwartz]

Jeffrey - giving serious consideration to building this panel saw. Tired of crawling on the floor or embarking the ever elusive teenager. Pulled the old ShopeNotes out last night.

Reading through the plans, I am not sure if I will be able to cut a 5' baltic birch sheet. I assume I will be able to rip it, but do you know if I can also cross cut it.

Also, you mentioned some small modifications - any suggestions would be most welcome.

Thanks,

Todd

[Matt Meiser]

There was also a recent panel saw build in either Home Shop Machinist or Machinist's Workshop magazine. I bought a copy while travelling because I thought it was interesting--I'll see if I can find it. If I can find my copy I'd be glad to send it to you. Their web site is worthless as there is no index information for recent issues and no information on back issues.

However, I would give serious thought to a guide system. They take up very little storage space when not in use. A panel saw takes up a lot of room. Take a look at the one at a Lowes for example. That's a pretty good sized one, but you still need room on both sides of the carriage for loading/unloading. I'd guess you probably need somewhere close to 12-16' of wall space? The guide systems can also make angled cuts which you can't do with a panel saw and can easily be taken with you to a job site.

[Jim Becker]

I concur that a guided saw system such as the Festool (my choice) or EZ-Smart is the way to go for most folks needing a "panel saw" setup in a small shop setting. That and a sheet of 2" foam insulation makes for an easy to use cutting operation.

[Todd Schwartz]

Thanks Matt - if it is a HomeShop Machinist I can most likely find a copy, there is a side of my family that is into metalworking.

I really am looking for a panel saw - been using the guides and measuring, remeasuring, clamping and cutting. Cutting a 5'x5' sheet down to 1'x2' pieces is a lot of measuring and cutting. Plus, it is time for a new project, I have the room and I will benefit from a panel saw for a long time.

Looks like I will need to pull out issue 88 of ShopNotes as well.

Appreciate all the feedback, keep it coming, that is the cool part of this forum.

Todd

[Grady Cowardin]

I would think the only part that would be hard to come by would be the carriage. The one at HD uses roller bushings aranged around a ring in a nice tight config. They are angled inward around the ring and that is the critical spot for precision. I assume you could also align bearings with their shaft perpendicular to the rails as long as their outer surface stayed flat and true. I don't see why a rail setup could so be used such as the EZ sytem etc. The kit linked calls for electrical conduit, a more complicated setup. If one could find those bushings/bearings the rest seems relatively straightforward to come up with. My new company has a full machine/fab shop out back but I have yet to put it to much use. I am about to rip/cut some 3/4 ply for a router cabinet and hopefully I can get the guys at the borg to cut my sheet to my dimensions before I leave as my cruddy circ saw and basic aluminum guides are the opposite of precise. Would definitely be cool to have a panel saw in the shop, especially seeing how it could be setup to only take up a modicum of space.

[Jim Hoelzel]

I have the small Safety Speed Cut (C-4). I have had a the much bigger H-6, but it really takes up a lot of space. The small C-4 is a very useful tool if you work by yourself with sheet goods. I do not think it will cross cut a 60 in. panel though??? Think it is only 50 in. tall.

I have used the saw/guide systems, and they work very well if you have the space to lay a sheet flat on saw horses.

Jim

[Tyler Purcell]

If you really want a real panel saw, you're going to have to talk to the machinist side of your family and break out a welder. You'll most likely want a machine with an all steel construction and linear bearings. Take a look at home brew cnc machines, there are many designs for making your own linear bearings using angle aluminum. Then, you can use a length of gas pipe for the bearings to run on. Build yourself a swiveling carriage for the bearings to run on so the saw can cut vertically and horizontally.

This will certainly be a serious undertaking if you do go this route, but I would love to see what you come up with.

[frank shic]

Bob, if you just want to break down plywood sheets for later trimming, a vertical panel saw might be useful but if you are looking to get finish cuts, the lower end models (rockler, safety speed cut, sawtrax, milwaukee and powermatic) will not give you the precision required.

[Burt Waddell]

Bob,

I think that it would be a good idea to visit the EZ Smart forum here on Sawmill. Dino recently came out with a bridge system that works great for a horizontal panel saw. I have made one with EZ parts that can handle full sheets of plywood with ease. I've owned two of the saw trax machines and one vertical panel saw and none of them are in the league with the EZ System.

Burt

[Darl Bundren]

I have the EZ Smart, too, and I am happy with it. You should look at both the EZ and Festool systems; both have their avid supporters. Plus, even if you spend $500 on the Festool system, I'd bet it would be cheaper than most panel saws, even those that you build yourself.

And, you'd be up and running in a couple of days (as soon as the delivery guy dropped off the new goodies).

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I agree with Frank. Whether it's homemade, or purchased, they are best used for rough cuts or when precison to 1/16" is adequate.

My homemade saw crosscuts to about 50" which can handle 49" wide melamine sheet goods. I believe Shop Notes has a second version that's very interesting. A person on WoodNet forum posted the newer version about 6 months ago. It looks neat.

For me, the biggest benefit of a panel saw over a guided saw system is that the sheets can be moved around easier by one person because the sheets are handled on edge. There's no fooling with saw horses or trying to raise the sheet to lay flat on the saw horse. This can really torque one's back.

A panel saw also works well for crosscut long boards. It's always square because gravity is always in your favor. Also, the cut offs won't drop on my foot.

However, even though they fold tight against the wall, they require storage which is valuable space for me. Panel saws cannot do angled cuts either.

Lastly, either method is no substitute for a quality tablesaw equipped with a proper blade for those finicky sheetgoods.

-Jeff :)

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Todd,
Oops! I didn't answer you question about my minor improvements....

Instead of using threaded knobs to change the circular saw's direction from crosscut to rip cut, I used very small toggle clamps. It's quicker, and no loose parts during change over.

I added an electrical switch which activates an oulet next to the switch that the circular saw plugs into. Also, I use a spiral coiled extension cord that is used for trimming shrubs. It acts like an auto retractor to keep the cord out of the way.

-Jeff :)

[Michael Schwartz]

I have wordked with a panel saw set up with a rough blade for hacking down sheets for the table saw and the thing is nowhere near as efficient as my EZ smart setup.


The flaws of a pannle saw.

No zero clearence protection on the cut = massive terrout

Many don't include a stop system for repeatability

They take up a tremendous ammount of wall space
and you need alot more clearence at least on one side to load them.

Even though they can be used to rip, the weight of the sheet will
bind on the blade like crazy, resulitng in burning, a ragged cut, and
the possibility of kickback:confused:


Panel saw vs guide system (Fesstool or EZ Smart)

Zero clearence protection on both sides of the blade for little or no terrout regardless of blade, and TS quality cuts with a finish blade.

Setup a good 4x8 cutting table, like an EZ "Smart Table", or make your own. Foam doesn't provide enough support. Then place the sheet on the table once, and make all your cuts, only moving the guide rails and the saw. You could even setup the cutting table right off the tailgate of your truck so you can just slide the plywood right off.


EZ Smart vs Panel Saw

Better Cut Quality

Repeatability on both sides of the blade without having to take into account the saw-blade

Doesn't take up any room in my shop when I am not using it.

Faster than a a pannle saw for ripping

Can rip narrow strips off of an 4x8 sheet with the repeaters faster than anything except some monster in a factory setup for gang ripping a thousand sheets a day into a set peice.

More ergonomic, safer, more accurate, and instead of just breaking sheets down for the TS you can just cut all your parts.

I can't say much for the fesstool, as I don't own it but I am sure it is a quality tool and it does have its merits. I don't wan't to start another EZ vs Fesstool war, but I did choose the EZ over the Fesstool, primarily becuause I feel the EZ is more versitile, and offers many more options for repeatibility, and with the bridge, replaces my tablesaw most of the time.

[Matt Meiser]

Also, I use a spiral coiled extension cord that is used for trimming shrubs. It acts like an auto retractor to keep the cord out of the way.

I've never seen those. The only shrub trimming extension cord I've seen is the one that gets shortened by a few feet every year when I accidentally cut through it.

[Matt Meiser]

Foam doesn't provide enough support.

I think you are supposed to put the foam on top of a solid support--like the floor or a large table. I've never done it because I hate foam--those little pieces stick to everything for months.

[frank shic]

matt, it's funny that you mention the foam since i tried to trim a piece down last year using... a circular saw. yes, the stuff covered almost every available surface in the shop including myself and was a chore to get off!

[Tom Veatch]

Jeffrey - giving serious consideration to building this panel saw. Tired of crawling on the floor or embarking the ever elusive teenager. Pulled the old ShopeNotes out last night.

Reading through the plans, I am not sure if I will be able to cut a 5' baltic birch sheet. I assume I will be able to rip it, but do you know if I can also cross cut it.

Also, you mentioned some small modifications - any suggestions would be most welcome.

Thanks,

Todd

Like Jeffrey, I built the "old" version and recommend the material kit offered by ShopNotes. I was a little skeptical of the U-bolt/nylon spacer carriage guides, but it works very well and I am quite pleased with the results.

I don't believe there is enough room in the original plans to make vertical cuts on 5' widths. But, if that is a requirement, it should be a simple matter to mod the plans to get the necessary height.

[Jack Morrow]

I've been cutting down lots of 4' X 8' plywood lately and the EZ Smart system is tops. May I make a few points?

1. The guide rails are straight and sturdy.
2. Little storage space required.
3. No measurement offset because the guide rails have removeable plastic anti-chip edges thare are cut by your saw.
4. The base for your saw also has anti-chip guards cut by your saw.
5. The anti-ship edges/guards can wear and are replacable and inexpensive.
6. A $15 blade in your circular saw makes cuts that rival the $90 blade in your tablesaw.
7. I now safely handle and cut large panels.
8. I can slide a panel over to my cutting table and load it by tilting and lifting it by myself.
9. I used to use the "factory edge" because cutting was such a hastle, but I now make a good, clean edge.

No, I'm not Dino. But the ~ $250, EZ Smart GuideTM 114" PackageEZ Smart GuideTM 114" Package rocks.

Jack

[Matt Meiser]

I hear the complaint on panels being easier to handle vertical than flat. The EZ table helps because you don't have to move the sheet once it is on the table, but it can still be hard to get a heavy sheet on there for one person.

Dino, how about designing a vertical smart table? Combine the design of the vertical panel saws, but use the EZ guide to give chip-free cuts. We need some way to hold the saw on the rail too.

[Jack Morrow]

I hear the complaint on panels being easier to handle vertical than flat. The EZ table helps because you don't have to move the sheet once it is on the table, but it can still be hard to get a heavy sheet on there for one person.

Dino, how about designing a vertical smart table? Combine the design of the vertical panel saws, but use the EZ guide to give chip-free cuts. We need some way to hold the saw on the rail too.

Matt,

I move the panel to the table and lean it onto the table. Then, simply lift the bottom of the panel and push/slide it onto the table. It's really so simple and easy.

Jack

[Tom Hargrove]

Everything Mike said above is true and then some.

I have worked in two shops that had panel saws. In the first shop, it sat unused most of the time, because it was not accurate enough for cabinet work.

In the second, we finally put it up in the loft/attic after realizing that it was wonderful for taking up lots of valuable room and for generating dust as well as attracting dust. It was not real good for cutting sheet goods when accuracy mattered. We did like it because it could be used as a ladder to get up to the loft before we put it up there. . ..

I have tried several shop made and commercial jigs and fixtures. Then I used a Festool saw with guide rail. It makes accurate quality cuts. Sawdust collection is a snap. And – the tool stores neatly out of the way when you are done with it. It can be used on sawhorses at the back of a pickup so whole sheets don't need to be lugged in and manhandled. (This matters to those of us who are not as young today as we once were, and usually work alone!)

If you consider the cost, making a panel saw and buying a good saw and blade to use in it will cost about the same as a Festool.

[Randal Stevenson]

I hear the complaint on panels being easier to handle vertical than flat. The EZ table helps because you don't have to move the sheet once it is on the table, but it can still be hard to get a heavy sheet on there for one person.

Dino, how about designing a vertical smart table? Combine the design of the vertical panel saws, but use the EZ guide to give chip-free cuts. We need some way to hold the saw on the rail too.


I don't see any reason it couldn't be used vertically verses horizontally, it would just be harder to adjust. (although if you cut the same thickness over and over, look for some of the links in which people used hinges to mount the rail on one side.

That said, WHAT and HOW do you load and unload sheets into? With my Smart table, I pull the truck in, and unload them one at a time on it (so I can cut them down). Smaller pieces I do on the Bridge (still trying to get happy with my portable Bridge, haven't decided which way is best, leaning towards the Spartan).
But if your set on a panel saw (I started looking in 2004, before deciding on the EZ and buying in 2005), do you have any out of business hardware stores/chains? We had Payless Cashways, Home Quarters, Builders Square, just to name a few, and I would see used panel saws from them all the time.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I hear the complaint on panels being easier to handle vertical than flat. The EZ table helps because you don't have to move the sheet once it is on the table, but it can still be hard to get a heavy sheet on there for one person.

Dino, how about designing a vertical smart table? Combine the design of the vertical panel saws, but use the EZ guide to give chip-free cuts. We need some way to hold the saw on the rail too.

Hi Matt.
Working vertical and pushing / resetting the panel after each cut.
A. Load the panel on a single task tool on a dedicated 12'-00" wall.
B. Make your first trimming / squaring cut. (You need a good back)
C. Set the stop.
Walk few feet.
Push the panel against the stop.
Walk to the saw. Make your first cut.
D. Unload the cut piece.
Push the panel against the stop.
Make your second cut.
E. Unload the cut piece..... to be loaded again
for the rip cut following the above routine.

The vertical panel saws are made for total safety at the lumber yards.
If you read the notes:
No precision cuts. No clean cuts. No narrow cuts.

The industrial vertical panel saws are much better.
I used one for 5 years.
The stop system is multiple and the carriage /Beam
moves easily and very precise.
The cuts are cleaner and the safety is second to none.
I used an industrial vertical panel saw for few years.
Nice single task tool but not the ultimate easy solution.
Nice tool but not the right answer for speed.
The computerized Vertical Panel saws are a different animal.


The commercial EFSTS. (EU Sliders)
I used one for few years.
A must in a commercial shop for it's versatility
but not for the ease and speed of cutting panels.
Not as safe as the vertical panel saws but safer
than a cabinet saw on all cuts...
IF you find ways and learn to use the slider on all cuts.
Paul made a nice jig for ripping narrow stock safe.


The problems with panel saws is the handling of the panels.
The solution is to handle each part once without loading and unloading the panel 100 times.

The ultimate easy way is to make your first cut.
Without moving anything or touching the large 'uncut ' piece,
you can make the final cut ( On the cut piece) from the same spot.
I will post videos and photo gallery's about the New Format EZ System.
a system that is good on panels and solid stock.
Here is a simple version of the EZ PBB.

Posted on the ez forum.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=61864
And here is the compete ez solution for panels and thin stock.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=61953

[fRED mCnEILL]

I recently built a panel saw that is a combination of plans from a couple of magazines. To built it I bought 6- 8 ft 2x4's, a sheet of plywood and 2- 6 ft. peices of aluminum angle. To make a long story short, I built a frame to hold the plywood sheet to be cut. I then attached the aluminum angle and the saw base slides in between the two peices of angle. Very simple. Its not fancy, it doesn't have a counterbalance to bring the saw back up to the top and it doesn't have a fancy carriage to carry the saw. But it works and its is VERY accurate.And when you are finished you can use the saw for other things. I built it in an afternoon with the bulk of the time taken making sure the angle al. was 90 deg. to the sheet being cut.

To use it you place the sheet to be cut on the frame and position it.You then take the saw and place it between the angle al. and pull it down cutting the sheet.

It won't rip the sheet but I decided that was something I could live without.
And it probably cost me about $20.

Fred Mc.