Table saw accidents

[John Kain]

hey guys....

This has probably been asked before. But I'll ask again.

I'm getting a new table saw here pretty soon. I'm a surgeon, and although everyone's fingers are important, mine seem to be my whole life. Since I'm not ready to give up woodworking, I have been drawn to Sawstop obviously. I'm just wondering if it's really worth the extra money. Is it a watered down version of the General 350 or the new Powermatic? I ask because I only expect to get more involved with woodworking as I get more advance in age and want to buy a top-notch saw I'll NEVER have to replace (one I can hand down to my son).

Also would like to hear any "saves" from the SawStop from personal experiences. I guess I'd also like to hear from those who didn't get so lucky with a tablesaw in the past.

Thanks in advance..........

[Don Baer]

John,
I had the opportunity of looking at the saw at a store and was very impressed with the quality of it. Fine woodworking in the lated issue rated it very high also. If I were in the market for a Cabinate saw it would definitly be high up on my list.

[tod evans]

john, i think per-n-bob have one that they really like? i`ve never seen one..02 tod

[David Duke]

John, as you said this has been debated many times and as with most things it comes down to personal choice. Everything I have read about the SawStop for the most part has been positive other than the cost, it seems to be a well built saw with very good dust collection, there have been some posts concerning "unexplained" blade lock events but those have been very few but as I understand it when the blade does "lock" it damages the blade and replacement cartriges are pretty expensive also.

Of course the cost of loosing a finger or severly damaging your hand would be much more expensive and devistating to your livelyhood, but I am of the opinion that the TS is no more dangerous than any other tool in the shop provided you use proper technique and observe all safety guidelines plus the technology isn't available for comparable safety on these tools and you will be using these tools (router, BS, miter saw)so the chance for an accident will always be there. That said, it can be argued that the SawStop is worth the expense to prevent the accident on the TS, I would personally buy a top end cabinet saw and put the difference between it and the SawStop on different tooling.

[tod evans]

john, since you asked about saw injuries, all of mine have been from kickbacks. so arm yourself with that knowledge whichever saw you decide to get. the missiles that occasionally shoot out of a saw have the abiliy to do severe damage, especially to your hands as they`re in the line of fire. not trying to scare you but stuff happens and meat-n-bone are no match for flung boards..02 tod

[edit] john, one more thought, the best way i know to keep your hands out of the line of fire would be a slider.considerably more money than a sawstop but in your shoes it may very well be wisely spent money even for a hobby. tod

[Tyler Howell]

Sawstop is pretty impressive. Saw it in action. I agree with Tod. only kick backs did any damage.

[Cecil Arnold]

John, were I in your position I would not consider anything but a Saw Stop, but I would also be very aware of Tod's advice.

[John Kain]

john, since you asked about saw injuries, all of mine have been from kickbacks. so arm yourself with that knowledge whichever saw you decide to get. the missiles that occasionally shoot out of a saw have the abiliy to do severe damage, especially to your hands as they`re in the line of fire. not trying to scare you but stuff happens and meat-n-bone are no match for flung boards..02 tod

[edit] john, one more thought, the best way i know to keep your hands out of the line of fire would be a slider.considerably more money than a sawstop but in your shoes it may very well be wisely spent money even for a hobby. tod

Tod, I actually had a kickback accident a little more than a year ago. The wood took off some skin on my left 3rd finger tip. I was able to work around it, but I was really hampered in the OR for 2 weeks. It didn't hurt my operating skills but I had to think about it with every single instrument I put into the hand (I'm left handed).

It's one of the reasons I like the Sawstop and the Powermatic 2000 (for the riving knife)

[Chris Padilla]

Were I in the market for a new TS, the SawStop and PM2k would get very hard looks and I'm sure I'd end up with the SS....

[Ben Grunow]

Imagine the raft of s--- you would catch from your co-workers if you cut off YOUR finger! You are supposed to be cutting things off other people. I bought my Sawstop because I knew I would never forgive myself for injuring myself instead of spending a few more bucks- and it's a great saw. No brainer.

[John Kain]

Any word on the Bandsaw that Sawstop is trying to engineer?

[Michael Cody]

PREFACE: I don't own a saw stop, I rarely use a table saw anymore either. But have used one a lot in my life. I use a guided saw system and bandsaw mostly and turn on my lathe.

Boy I seem to be in soapbox mode lately!

That said, if I buy another table saw it will be a sawstop or something comparable. Face it, how much is one of my fingers or hands worth. To me it's priceless, but to you ... there is no comparison. Screw the possible blade misfires, who cares about the small extra cost for the saw or if I chew up a blade.. That is all armchair pontification macho buffalo pucky. Sounds tough -- but I've never had an accident with a TS either, never even a kickback. I don't use a guard but I use a homemade riving knife. I use push sticks and I use safe techniques, but I have to be right " EVERY SINGLE TIME TO BE SAFE", the saw only has to be used wrong once to change my life!! It's like the safety jackets in my boat, sure I can swim and actually I have fallen out of a boat (was even sober) .. but if I fell out and knocked myself unconscious -- what good does that seat cushion do me, I wear a high dollar comfortable flotation jacket always.

Now look at your investment in yourself, can you honestly say that all the con-hype, non-tested reasons to save few bucks BS about safe techniques, jigs, etc... will make you not regret forever the one time in thousands you didn't get it right! There was another thread a couple days ago about riding a motorcycle -- risk versus what you get out of riding. Most mature folks sold the bikes since the return doesn't out weigh the risk.. You have a chance to get yourself state of the art safety. It's not perfect but it might mean you have to screw up 5-6 times out thousands before you are hurt instead of one. It doesn't mean you work less safely, you use all the tricks and techniques but you are working with a safety net in case you are actually human and might make a mistake. That sounds worth it to me.

[Jeff Horton]

If I were a surgeon I would have to seriously consider a SawStop. You situation is a bit unique.

With that said I could make a good argument for a standard saw and just using the guard that come with it or an after market guard. Without the guard I can see how someone could easily tear up a finger. I almost did it once and scared me bad. I put the guard back on but I just hate it because it is always in the way. So I took it back off till I find one that works well.

Honestly the band saw concerns me more than the TS. I work smaller pieces on it and than the TS and I have see what the butcher can do with a BS. :eek:

[Joe Jensen]

John, the Sawstop is in a different class than the General and Powermatic. The Sawstop is built much more like the high end European saws. I sold my PM 66 to buy the SawStop when I saw how it was constructed inside. For example, the Sawstop has independent adjustments for blade alignment to the miter slot when at 90 degrees and when at 45 degrees (heel adjustment). The dust collection, the true riving knife, the top is a full 30 inches by 40 inches, I could go on and on. I was lucky in that the local store had a Sawstop with the top removed so I could inspect the insides. Rest assured that this saw is very well built. Download the manual online and you'll see How it's a 21st century design coupled with lots of cast iron...joe

[Bruce Benjamin]

...but I am of the opinion that the TS is no more dangerous than any other tool in the shop provided you use proper technique and observe all safety guidelines plus the technology isn't available for comparable safety on these tools and you will be using these tools (router, BS, miter saw)so the chance for an accident will always be there.

Would it be fair then to say that riding a motorcycle is no more dangerous than any other form of transportation provided you observe all safety guidelines? Any power tool in a shop has the potential to do some damage if you don't use it properly. All things being equal with regards to proper technique and safety guidelines, one tool in the shop is more likely to hurt you than all of the rest. That's the table saw. Sneeze at the wrong time, hit an unexpected knot, etc. etc. with a table saw or with a band saw, drill press router table and something can get painful. But with a tablesaw the cost will usually be much higher and the likelihood of a problem even when following all of the rules is much higher than with other commonly used tools. Proper technique and lots of caution will go a long way towards preventing an accident with any tool but, in my opinion, with a table saw the margin for error is much smaller and the cost of an error can be much higher. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and here was mine.

Bruce

[Andy Haney]

No machine was to blame for my incident, and I was very lucky. Still have all the fingers and they function well. I have no excuse for the inattention that resulted in my getting into a running blade, but I do think it could happen to anyone given the right circumstances.

The price of the ER visit and the resulting surgery would buy several Sawstops, I'm sure. The potential result of such damage to a surgeon's hand is unthinkable. When I'm able to move into a place that I can have a dedicated shop, it will have 220v circuits and a BIG BLACK saw.

[skip coyne]

hey he's a surgeon , he can just sew it back on himslef and keep right on going ;)

[Roy Wall]

John,

I'm a happy Sawstop owner for a year+ now......

The riving knife is excellent - and will virtually eliminate any kickback.

It has no vibration and the Fence is solid. Sawstop was engineered to be about 20% "beefier" than the PM66 and the General 350's.

I believe it has and will continue to change the face of the industry. Notice that within 2 years of of sales, riving knifes are popping up on new cabinet models.

The only downside (perhaps) is the motor is not Baldor - in fact the saw is made in the Far East......

The upside is the pleasure of using the machine and the guardian angel under the Cast Iron Top......

[Alan DuBoff]

I had a chance to inspect and see a demo of the sawstop recentely. Very impressive saw, IMO. I saw the 5HP cabinet model, the contractor's saw is not available yet. It had a really nice riving knife on it, that could be removed very easily.

I've heard they're no good for cutting hot dogs though...:p

I saw the saw at The Sawdust Shop (http://www.sawdustshop.com/).

The owner said they've had a few mis-fires when they first got it, but any mis-fires get the cartridged replaced free. He said the cartridges are $69~.

I thought it looked like a great saw, they even make a 7 1/2 HP model.

But I decided to get an old industrial saw instead because, 1) it was a fraction of the price, 2) is every bit as much of a saw if not more, and 3) the majority of accidents are involving kickback, and the sawstop is not immune to that.

I feel it's certainly a good step towards safety, but a table saw is only one tool in your shop. Always be as careful as you can, I always cut myself, even with chisels and other edge tools.

I don't think anyone could fault them for being safer, or that anyone would dispute that they appear safer. My guess is that we'll continue to see more of these types of improvements to tools, but that many people will continue using a lot of the same old tools that have been used for years. :D

I don't know anyone that would be happy to cut themself on a table saw, so I think it's safe to say that if you did have an accident and didn't have a sawstop, it would certainly make one think...Always good to remind yourself that saws do cut...and don't know the difference between flesh and wood.

[Doug Shepard]

No experience with the SawStop but thought I'd add my $0.02. The only TS accident I've had involved ripping some 1/4" strips. One ended up slipping down into the insert opening and shooting back an impressive shower of wooden shrapnel. Ten years later I've still got a small lump under the skin of one finger. XRays said there's no splinter in there but it's a constant reminder not to be so stupid. Now the only time I don't use a zero clearance insert is if I'm using a dado blade or cutting bevels. And if I had to cut beveled thin stuff I'd seriously consider making a single-angle zero clearance insert. Even the SawStop isn't going to help you with that particular issue. Get a few ZCI's for whatever saw you end up with.

[Alan Turner]

We have opened a furniture making school, and the SS is what we have installed, for the safety of the students. I think it was a wise decision. I personally have used a TS for well over 40 years, without any accidents except the occasional kickbak, which have been harmless (fortunately). Only 2 US saws have the riving knive, the SS and the PM 2000. I have not seen the PM yet, but it has been well received. In your position, the $1000 price difference is not terribly important.

You can say to yourself that you will always be careful, but . . . .

[Charlie Plesums]

I'm not a surgeon, but I value my hands. I bet my money on a Eurpoean sliding table saw. The normal operating position is beside the saw, not in the line of fire for kickbacks. Many of the cuts, especially the awkward ones with large pieces, are normally handled by clamping the board to the slider, and operating from a long way away from the blade.

The SawStop looks like a fine cabinet saw, but I am worried about a tricky electric circuit that dumps a $60 brake into a $120 blade... there have been very few reported false trips, but what happens when the electronics get to be 5 or 10 years old... are there more expensive false triggers, or does the protection become less relaible?

My choice was simpler machinery that keeps me out of the line of fire and farther away from the blade.

[Allen Bookout]

It is really too bad that there are no statistics on tablesaw accidents so that we could all make realistic decisions. Without the figures it is just all a guess as to the real danger. I see that right here as there are different viewpoints without anything to back them up.

I happen to think that accidents that cause real damage such as loss of a finger or worse are few and far between. What do I have to base my statement on? NOTHING.

That being the case, assuming that money was no object, I would go the sliding table route like Charlie did. Next option would be the Saw Stop with the knowledge that in the future I might have to dump it if the electronics do not hold up.

What do I use? A plain old Uni with guards, push sticks, feather boards, sleds and any thing else that I need to use to make the operation safe in my own mind.

But then again, I am not dependent upon my fingers being intact to make my living.

So ---- I guess that we are right back where we started.

Good Luck!

Allen

P.S. John, After thinking about this for a few minutes more and considering your profession and financial position that you should really consider strongly what Charlie Plesums had to say.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Well I am not a surgeon either .....but I am an Architect first and a professional Woodworker second, so I also need my fingers ;)

As some of you know and I am sure some of you do not know I strongly recommend a European Slider to ANY Cabinet saw. Yes the Saw Stop is a great idea and it most likely is a great saw but as others have said it still puts you in the line of fire. When I did my switch to my MM slider I completely removed myself & my fingers from the area around the blade. I also ALWAYS USE THE RIVING KNIFE AND OVERHEAD GUARD. The second thing I rely only most of the time is a MECHANICAL means to hold wood on the slider to complete my rip cuts, crosscuts, chamfers, bevels, edging......

Accidents can still happen..heck i have had the worst cuts from my chisels when carving or cleaning up mortises.

Email me directly I would be happy to fill you in on my findings and use of the sliders I have and have owned

[Sonny Porter]

John Kain, your risks are different from the usual, the extra money isn't all that important compared to injuring your career and there's no competition for that particular format of saw yet so it's a logical contender.

HOWEVER, if you really are concerned with health - why stop there, why stop at trying to handle only one risk? Why go with any table saw rather than, for instance, the Festool saw-on-a-rail system which also spends a great deal of engineering effort on dust control? No lesser light than Nick Engler (bigtime woodworking author who's also famous for being down to earth) has said he thought people could do fine woodworking with the Festool saw system. Capture the spinning blade on a rail and you severely lower the risks of amputations and kickbacks both. An additional benefit of the Festool system is that it was designed from the start to produce VERY little free dust - it's a whole different approach to woodworking safety. More comprehensive, don't you think? They have sanders and routers as well, all designed to throw their output into a vac system. You can afford nearly the whole line for the cost of one Sawstop.

The Sawstop only addresses one fear: amputation or severe cutting injury. Speak to some shop teachers. Kickback is also a KILLER. How happy would those untouched hands be if you were speared by a flying missile of oak which was, a millisecond ago, spinning around at 140 mph three feet away from your reproductive organs?

Inhaling toxic wood dust for decades also adds up to a measurable risk, IMHO. (IMHO = In My Humble Opinion, an acronym from the Jurassic Period of personal computers.)

There's more to woodworking risks than cutting injuries from falling into the saw blade of a table saw. This might be a good time to think beyond the box and consider the whole range of issues which might affect your safety long term. Off the top of my head, I'd consider the risks to vision, lungs, hands, body parts in the way of kickbacks and hearing. Which parts of these health issues would not affect your professional performance?

[Sonny Porter]

You have a chance to get yourself state of the art safety.
I honestly and respectfully question this. I do not think Sawstop is state of the art safety because it's too narrowly focused. It is geared to handle one fear: injury by the cutting blade on one tool. I know a shop teacher who cut off parts of several fingers in a jointer. We've all heard of terrible accidents where clothing or hair was caught up in a spinning arbor of some sort and the person was literally scalped. Nailing guns have their own hit parade of amazing videos floating around the Internet.

Safety considerations in woodworking should be more comprehensive.

Have you ever been in a roomful of long time woodworkers? It looks like a hearing aid convention! We won't mention the hacking coughs that seem to go with the hearing aids. Many people have already mentioned the frequency of kickbacks. I've seen people kneel on the floor to view the lineup between wood and saw blade - while the saw was still on! A lot of things can happen besides falling into a spinning blade.

When the loss potential is VERY high, it's a good idea to optimize the problem definition. Sliding saws, a stock feeder maybe, Festool (or some other system that tries to limit dust exposure), engineering design of the entire system so JK can do the kind of woodworking he likes with the least overall risk. Don't stop at the Sawstop. Think bigger.

[Joe Jensen]

Safety considerations in woodworking should be more comprehensive.


Sonny, I don't think I implied that TS safety was all that's required.
1) Federal data shows something like 60,000 saw injuries a year, most from Table Saws.
2) The guards on most saws impair their operation so most get removed
3) The Sawstop greatly REDUCES the likelyhood of a SERIOUS injury. It's not a substitute for common sense and care.
4) The Sawstop is only designed to reduce the severity of table saw injuries. they make no claims as to their ability to reduce jointer, nailer, drill press, or sander accidents.
5) TS accidents seem to happen to both newer users, and long time professionals.

I got my left index finger in a table saw when I was 14 (30 years ago). I was trying to cut 1/8" by 1/8" slots in small pieces of wood. I was lucky in that the blade was only 1/8" above the table. Still, the end of my finger looked like hamburger, and it took months to fully heal, and a year to get full usage back. I can still feel the blade hitting the bone. Hence, I've been very careful in the shop, but I still work when I'm too tired to be really safe. I sometimes let too much scrap accumulate on the floor, and there are always cords to trip over.

In Feb a good woodworking friend called to excitedly tell me about the SawStop, and how a local store had one with the top off. He was considering buying one, but he didn't want to spend the $1500 to upgrade from his PM66. (This guy makes several hundred thousand a year and has a high net worth, so it's not like he couldn't afford it). He called 2 weeks later to tell me that he was working in the shop and had a back spasm. As a result he ended up putting his thumb into the saw blade. Sadly, he hadn't spent the money on the saw stop, so he very badly damaged his thumb. He will not be able to work in the shop for months, and he will have at least one surgery to repair things. The next day I drove to the store to look at the Sawstop with the top off, and I ordered one the same day. How stupid would I feel if I ended up hurting myself on the TS because I made a mistake, and I was too cheap to buy the Sawstop.

I understand that there are many out there who are so good they don't need this technology. I also understand that this saw is financially out of reach for many folks. My fingers are worth the $1500 insurance policy.

[J. Greg Jones]

Would it be fair then to say that riding a motorcycle is no more dangerous than any other form of transportation provided you observe all safety guidelines?
Bruce

Sorry for the OT reply, but as a motorcyclist with 35+ years experience, that would not be a fair statement. Despite educational campaigns, mandatory headlight usage, high visibility clothing, etc., motorcyclists are at a much higher risk of not being "seen" by other motorists. Case in point is the recent case that made international news where Pittsburgh quarterback Ben Roethlisberger was involved in a motorcycle accident. All of the attention has been on the fact that he was not wearing a helmet, with little or no mention that the cause of the accident was due to a motorist that turned in front of him. Had Roethlisberger been wearing a helmet, he still would have been in a very serious accident and would have still sustained serious injuries.

Relating this back to the topic, I've never used a SawStop but if I were in the market for a saw today I would take a serious look at one. The SawStop has many features that make it a desirable saw beyond the blade brake. However, the SawStop will not take all of the risk out of using the tool. Just as in Roethlisberger's case, other safety precautions still need to be followed.

[tod evans]

Tod, I actually had a kickback accident a little more than a year ago. The wood took off some skin on my left 3rd finger tip. I was able to work around it, but I was really hampered in the OR for 2 weeks. It didn't hurt my operating skills but I had to think about it with every single instrument I put into the hand (I'm left handed).

It's one of the reasons I like the Sawstop and the Powermatic 2000 (for the riving knife)

john, at the risk of being redundant, please give a serious look-see at the sliders. charlie and paul, myself and several other folks on this forum alone use these tools daily and can attest to the inherent safety by design. honestly even a sawstop doesn`t offer the degree of safety these bigger sliders do and as an additional bonus you`ll get the accuracy and clean cuts that no other system offers in both hardwoods and sheetgoods. the dust collection is state of the art, on my saw the design of the blade flask will propell most dust into the lines even when i forget to turn on the dust collector. i don`t use the overhead guard, but everyone i`ve spoke to says they`re very effective at containing top of the table dust.
if you where to go with a slider and a feeder i cannot think of any tablesaw opperation where your body would be in jeopardy. tod

[Roy Hatch]

John, I have a son who is an emergency room doc and he says that circular saws and table saws do most of the carnage in the woodworking shop. There's no doubt that I would invest in a Sawstop if I were in the market. I see it as cheap insurance.
Roy

[Al Willits]

As a newbie I'll go out on a limb and give ya my opinion, fwiw.
No safety device that I know of can make up for improper use of a piece of equiptment, using proper techniqes when sawing will go far towards keeping all your fingers.
Use a push stick insteand of your hands, woodcraft has a neat plastic one with a rubber handle on sale for under $10 and it works great, don't stand behind the blade in case of kickbacks, don't use power tools when tired, preoccupied, or arguing with the wife, keep the dog out of the shop, and think only on what your doing, not the next glue joint.

All pretty basic stuff, but I think more important than relying on safety equiptment to keep you safe. imho

Al

[Steve Strickler]

Sonny,

WELL written response...

I agree with you. I'd take my good power feeder ANY day over a Sawstop. My fingers never get within 2 feet of the spinning blade. Kick-backs--nada, cut quality--consistent. Fatigue-factor--little...

For me, it's faster, safer, better. How can you go wrong?

[Frank Fusco]

John, I have a son who is an emergency room doc and he says that circular saws and table saws do most of the carnage in the woodworking shop. There's no doubt that I would invest in a Sawstop if I were in the market. I see it as cheap insurance.
Roy

I was going to read all the posts then pipe in with mine. But, I'll second Roy's comments above. My son is also an emergency room physician. He sees several shop accidents per month. Usually finger amputations or near-amps. According to his observations, the compound-miter saw is the most common villan. But, the table saw is responsible for the most serious injuries and runs a close second to the c-m saw in numbers. He also reports that those who come in are invariably guys like me, retired home hobbiests. And they all make the same comment: "I don't usually do what I did, but JUST THIS ONE TIME........". The rule is use common sense. Most of us drive vehicles. Those are no more safe or dangerous than the nut behind the wheel. I am a sport shooter and know that guns are inherently not dangerous. It is how they are handled or used that can cause injury. Same with tools. My father was a professional woodworker/cabinet maker all his life. He never had a serious injury. And, to the best of my recollection, never used blade guards. My personal rule is: If I think my fingers MIGHT be too close to the blade, they are.

[Howard Acheson]

>> Is it a watered down version of the General 350 or the new Powermatic?

On the contrary, the SawStop saw, regardless of its unique safety feature sets a higher standard than any other currently available consumer tablesaw. Add the safety features and you have a unique machine that is far above any of the others.

I had the opporunity to play around with one for a few hours. Both using it and crawling around the innards, convinced me that it is a much more heavily built machine than Powermatic, General or the Unisaw.

[Carl Eyman]

Invariably when Saw Stop is mentioned there are a bunch of responses like: "I'd rather have a power feeder," or" A sliding table is all you need", or "good practices are more important", etc. etc. And each such response certainly makes sense, but why are they usually phrased in such a way as being alternatives to Saw Stop as opposed to additions? Why not use every safety measure possible? The consensus seems to be the SS is a quality saw; so if you can afford it, why not buy it? I sure would if I could.

I'd really appreciate an answer to this question from any of the folks whose post is in the nature of diminishing the importance of SS.

[Dino Makropoulos]

A safe tablesaw should have:

1. SawStop.
The sliding table, power feeder and spitter don't help in some cuts.

2. Power feeder.
You can't use the sliding table 100% of the time.


3. Sliding table.
You can't use the power feeder 100% of the time.

4. Good splitter.

[George Pretty]

As a corporate lawyer, typing document revisions and correspondence is a key. A lawyer friend of mine, a longtime woodworker whose family is the in the commercial end of the saw business went to the shop one evening after work, and got one of his fingers in the saw. Luckily, no permanent damage. His brother in the family business sent him a SawStop the next week.

Through another thread, I am asking if any of you SawStop users have found a sliding table that works well with the saw. Let me know.

[Lee DeRaud]

One thing I've had pounded into me from several past threads here is that adding a sliding table to a cabinet saw (even a SawStop) does not make it into a Euro-slider.

I haven't seen the internal construction details of the SS, so I don't know what would be involved, but I don't know why they couldn't make retrofit modules for conventional saws and/or license the technology to other manufacturers.

[Joe Jensen]

A safe tablesaw should have:

1. SawStop.
The sliding table, power feeder and spitter don't help in some cuts.

2. Power feeder.
You can't use the sliding table 100% of the time.


3. Sliding table.
You can't use the power feeder 100% of the time.

4. Good splitter.

Dino, you posted exactly what I was going to post. I don't understand how other posters assume Sawstop is a substitute for common sense, safe practices, use of guards, etc. Back to the car example, I buy cars with all the latest saftey equipment, and I wear a seatbelt. I don't do this because I intend to drive unsafely. Of course someone else may hit me, but also, not all wood behaves as expected either.

[Joe Jensen]

Sonny,

WELL written response...

I agree with you. I'd take my good power feeder ANY day over a Sawstop. My fingers never get within 2 feet of the spinning blade. Kick-backs--nada, cut quality--consistent. Fatigue-factor--little...

For me, it's faster, safer, better. How can you go wrong?

One more thought. If you can afford the SawStop, why wouldn't you buy it as an extra level of protection?

[David Martino]

I don't have a lot of experience on tablesaws so can't comment on their relative merits/safety. I think the SawStop people deserve a lot of credit for bringing an innovation to the market that existing tool companies weren't willing to incorporate (I think SawStop tried to license its blade stopping technology to Delta, Powermatic, etc. for years and ultimately were forced to design their own saw because of lack of interest...). The posts here and pretty much everywhere else make it clear the potential for serious injury is common enough to warrant looking around. A post above mentioned the Festool system, which may not do everything a table saw does but seems to have a lot of dedicated and happy users. You might also check out the EZ Guide saw and router systems, which focus on safety and have many very satisfied users. Both use circular saws (or other tools) attached to guides that isolate the user from blade path and fix/clamp the wood to avoid not just blade injuries but kickback and other wood-movement issues. The EZ guide has a very active and informative site here on Sawmill Creek under manufacturer forums.

I am NOT trying to start one of those flame-wars pitting table saws VS. Festool VS. EZ guide - they all have their advantages and adherents, some more passionate than others. The best advice anyone can get is to check out all the options and make an informed choice - which you have wisely done by asking your question here. Woodworking and tools in general have such an intrinsic "FUN" appeal (otherwise why would so many spend so much to make so little?) (thinking of myself, but I might not be the only one...) that it's easy to discount the risks until AFTER something serious happens. I'm really only posting here because I know a terrific surgeon who sustained a hand injury (non-woodworking but a moment's inattention on a construction project) and can't practice anymore. It's not possible or even desirable to live a totally risk-free life - but the reality is sobering enough to try and think "safety first" - then let the sawdust making begin!

[Ian Barley]

I'm not a surgeon but as a woodworker earning my living that way I also need both my hands functioning well. If I could buy a sawstop in the UK I almost certainly would. If they ever make one with a designed in (euro) slider as well I will swim back with one on my back. The euro sliding table is the only design that puts you in the same league of protection and the combination of the two would be unbeatable.

You can be as careful and as clever as you like. You can agonise about the risk of accidental misfire costing you a couple hundred bucks. But the first time that you do something daft and feel the wind as the blade vanishes away from you you will thank yourself for spending the extra and realising your own fallibility.

The comparison to driving has been made. I think of the SawStop as similar to airbags. When they first came out I hated the idea that there was a computer - a damn computer- making the decision about firing an explosive charge in the direction of my face to inflate a bag of tent material. I did not trust them and avoided them as long as I could because I didn't trust the technology. But the number of misfires is astonishingly small and the number of injuries and fatalities avoided is huge. I don't drive recklessly because I have an airbag in front of me. I still stop at red lights and keep a safe distance and don't drive tired and wear a seat belt and stay on the correct (left!) side of the road. In other words I take all the active safety steps I can and am grateful for the additional protection of this passive safety feature.

Buy it. Be grateful if it proves to be a waste of money because you never need it. Buy it. Buy it. Buy it.

No affiliation - just a desire to minimise the number of amputees that put people off this pastime and profession.

[Steve Strickler]

If you have a power feeder, it would be a waste of money. Your fingers would never even get close to the blade. I'd spend it on better/more feeder wheels, better fence system, better blade(s).

I have nothing against Sawstop, I just think kickback is FAR more an issue than getting your fingers into the blade.

I'd like to see some more manufacturers put OFF/Emergency switches in a better, more accessible spot. Preferrably where you could hit them with your knee/leg. 9 outta 10 times that I've gotten into a sawing situation that required I stop it, finding and getting to the off switch is quite a challenge!

[Bruce Benjamin]

Sorry for the OT reply, but as a motorcyclist with 35+ years experience, that would not be a fair statement. Despite educational campaigns, mandatory headlight usage, high visibility clothing, etc., motorcyclists are at a much higher risk of not being "seen" by other motorists. Case in point is the recent case that made international news where Pittsburgh quarterback Ben Roethlisberger was involved in a motorcycle accident. All of the attention has been on the fact that he was not wearing a helmet, with little or no mention that the cause of the accident was due to a motorist that turned in front of him. Had Roethlisberger been wearing a helmet, he still would have been in a very serious accident and would have still sustained serious injuries.


I don't have the amount of experience you do but I have been riding on and off for about 30 years of my life, both on and off road. I see my statement as fair because even if you remove the idea of cars hitting you there is a far greater likelihood of having a crash and getting hurt when riding a motorcycle than when driving any 4 wheeled vehicle. Rain, hard to spot oil slicks, gravel, railroad track, animals, sunken manhole covers, road construction, and other hazards are all part of riding. A careful rider will usually be able to either avoid or successfully deal with these hazards. The key word here is, "Usually". You've never had a painful or at least scary moment on one of the hazards I've mentioned? If you ride on the road for very long at all you're almost certain to encounter most, if not all of these problems and probably others I didn't list. I have done all of them and I've spent more of my accumulated years on dirt than street. I'm not a, "Hot dog rider", (I'm not a rider at all anymore due to an accident that destroyed my knee) and I do consider myself a skilled rider. I've only crashed on pavement a few times. Once in a parking lot on oil that was almost invisible, once on the road with sandy gravel in the corner, and once avoiding a dog. None were too serious but none were Practically avoidable. The oil was nearly invisible. The gravel was new on a road I traveled nearly every day and covered nearly the entire road, it was hard to spot and I couldn't slow down in time. The dog ran right out in front of me and was too large to just ride over. I hit a curb and went onto the lawn instead of possibly flipping over the bars. None of these accidents I had would've been a problem at all were I in a car. And with the other common hazards I listed, most of the time a car would either not be affected by the problem or there would likely be no damage or injury. Would you rather confront any of the above listed hazards in a car or on a motorcycle? One of the choices is obviously far safer than the other.

With a table saw a careful user following all of the rules will almost never get his fingers into the blade. But even the safest TS user will sometimes sneeze or have some unexpected physical problem that could cause their hand to go into the blade. I once sneezed and put my finger into the side of a RAS blade and it chewed up the tip of my finger pretty good. It could've just as easily happened on my table saw. I use a blade guard on both my RAS and TS. Occasionally kickback is hard to predict and therefore hard to avoid. As you know, a ripped piece of wood will sometimes do strange or unpredictable things as the invisible internal stresses are released. A splitter won't always solve every problem. I've cut through a knot that couldn't practically be avoided and had the chunk fly back under the guard and smack my hand very hard. It drew a fair amount of blood, was badly bruised, and hurt for a couple of weeks. There are other somewhat unavoidable situations with ripping on a table saw that I would compare to dealing with a difficult-to-avoid motorist coming at you. Sure there's nearly always some sort of action you could take to either avoid being hurt or to avoid the situation entirely but sometimes they are practically unavoidable. And rarely is the person driving the car injured by hitting a motorcycle. Again, would you rather be in the car or on a motorcycle in the event of a collision. Admittedly, you're much more likely to be threatened by a car if you're riding a bike than you are to have a difficult to predict table saw accident but I still think the comparison warrants consideration. Agree with the car versus motorcycle examples or not, it would be difficult to argue that road hazards encountered on a motorcycle are just as benign as when encountered in a car. These are the reasons why I believe I originally made a valid comparison between motorcycles and table saws. Nowadays, I avoid motorcycle accidents by not riding, (not completely by choice) and I avoid most tablesaw accidents by doing most of my cuts using my EZ Smart and a circular saw, (Completely by choice).

By the way, the accident that ruined my knee in 2004 on my motorcycle was completely avoidable using my 20/20 hindsight. But it seemed a reasonable thing to do at the time, (As I said, I'm not a,"Hot dog rider") but it instantly went very wrong. Even the most experienced table saw user will/has made similar errors in judgment that resulted in at least a minor injury or a very near miss of a major injury. We're not robots that have no choice but to obey the programming. Everybody will occasionally have a failure in judgement. I consider myself a very safe TS user but every once in a while I do something that I look back on and I think to myself, "What was I thinking?!"

Bruce

[John Kain]

I've never really looked into sliding TSs.

I know of the MiniMax ones and that's about it. Could you all give me some direction for sliding TSs you have, or have seen?

[Chris Giles]

John,
Head over to the IWF show in Atlanta in late August, and you will see just about everything there is to see regarding woodworking equipment, including the Sawstop. All of the latest stuff is on display at this show, and there is no better place to see it all demonstrated by the manufacturers. Your fortunate to be so close, I have to fly down from New Hampshire for it every two years.

[Sonny Porter]

1) Federal data shows something like 60,000 saw injuries a year, most from Table Saws.

Actually, I read the stuff the Sawstop folks inserted into the Congressional record and when I looked at the data they cited, the number of accidents which led to more than trivial scrapes or cuts is around 25,000. (Look up their "testimony," it reads like a sales brochure, it's almost a script of their previous press releases.)

I'd like to see some refresher data on how much money those injuries cost and how rerouting that money to Sawstop would make woodworking any safer for those who aren't in a position to spend $2,000+ on a table saw. Are we going to make woodworking safer by making it less accessible? If you don't let people ski, you certainly will lower the number of ski accidents.

What do we lose if the entire bottom of the market is ripped out? What do we lose if we only have one saw company allowed to sell to schools, factories, public agencies spending tax dollars? We can see the gain to Sawstop. What's the gain to us as taxpayers, as citizens, as woodworkers? We might gain something from banning poor people from owning a table saw - but does the United States want to be that type of country? Do we really want to prevent working class people from owning affordable table saws?

While it's tempting to forget the limits of economies and say things like, "If it prevents ONE ACCIDENT, it's worth 87 kajillion dollars," it's not true in the real world. In the real world, we put numbers into the risk/benefit ratio when we decide what to buy. Private individuals do not typically spend $2,500 to cover a $1,000 risk. People spending other people's money are often not so restrained.

When you amortize out the excess cost of the Sawstop saws over those 25,000 accidents it might have saved the nation, IMHO: the Sawstop impressed me as the most expensive way for this society to meet the need for more safety around table saws.

It's been a while since I read those docs, I don't even have them on this computer, but my lasting impression was that one of the major sources of controversy in this issue is Sawstop's energetic pursuit of legal/legislative force rather than market persuasion to make its case. They apparently aren't able to scare the hell out of enough woodworkers to make the money they want to from this thing -- so they're happy to try making an end run around the marketplace by going down political paths instead. When people do that to a community which has a lot of independent minded constituents, they will find resistance. I'd bet some of the valence of Sawstop threads comes from that resistance.

[Greg Ladd]

With all due respect to everyone posting here, I have to believe that the comments regarding the sliding saw as the way to go are right on the money.

Regardless of how well the SawStop works, keeping the hands a considerably distance from the blade seems to me to be a much better option. I have not doubt that the SawStop cartridge is a great idea, but everything has a possibility of failure.

If I were in your position, there is no way I would consider anything less than a european slider. There is simply too much at risk here.

As a matter of fact, this probably applies to all of us. Many people who have had an incident with a table saw have commented that the SawStop would have been a bargain compared to the cost of an ER room visit as well at the pain and suffering involved. I would venture to say if the same thing happened to me I would probably say a Euro slider would have been a bargain.

Greg

[Burt Waddell]

I'm not a surgeon but as a woodworker earning my living that way I also need both my hands functioning well. If I could buy a sawstop in the UK I almost certainly would. If they ever make one with a designed in (euro) slider as well I will swim back with one on my back. The euro sliding table is the only design that puts you in the same league of protection and the combination of the two would be unbeatable.

You can be as careful and as clever as you like. You can agonise about the risk of accidental misfire costing you a couple hundred bucks. But the first time that you do something daft and feel the wind as the blade vanishes away from you you will thank yourself for spending the extra and realising your own fallibility.

The comparison to driving has been made. I think of the SawStop as similar to airbags. When they first came out I hated the idea that there was a computer - a damn computer- making the decision about firing an explosive charge in the direction of my face to inflate a bag of tent material. I did not trust them and avoided them as long as I could because I didn't trust the technology. But the number of misfires is astonishingly small and the number of injuries and fatalities avoided is huge. I don't drive recklessly because I have an airbag in front of me. I still stop at red lights and keep a safe distance and don't drive tired and wear a seat belt and stay on the correct (left!) side of the road. In other words I take all the active safety steps I can and am grateful for the additional protection of this passive safety feature.

Buy it. Be grateful if it proves to be a waste of money because you never need it. Buy it. Buy it. Buy it.

No affiliation - just a desire to minimise the number of amputees that put people off this pastime and profession.

Ian,

I think that looking at Bruce's illustration of the safety factors involved here draws a great parallel with most existing saw systems like the slider and table saw. These tools were designed to cut wood first and safety is an after thought. This is kind of like the safety equipment used in nascar. At first there was nothing - then safety belts, roll cages, Hans devices, softer walls, etc. but drivers still get killed. We add safety devices to saws but we still suffer from cuts and kick backs.

This problem needs to be addressed by designing a totally new tool that can safely cut without kick backs and that keeps the operators hands out of harms way. While the makers of the saw stop are to be commended for their efforts, I think they come far short of the goal. They tried to fix an existing tool instead of creating a new one. In other words, you might say they put a helmet on the motorcycle rider. Where is the rest of the safety gear?

Burt

[Phil Phelps]

....find a new hobby until you retire. Your skill is far too important to be messing with power saws. I've cut myself several times, still have the fingers, but the feeling isn't the same in the places that took the damage. My fingers come within an eighth inch from a bandsaw, weekly. I've been doing this for 38 years, and am lucky to have 'em all. But the accidents I've had, rendered my helpless for a few weeks. You can't afford that. Here is a router "glitch" a couple of years ago.

[John Kain]

John,
Head over to the IWF show in Atlanta in late August, and you will see just about everything there is to see regarding woodworking equipment, including the Sawstop. All of the latest stuff is on display at this show, and there is no better place to see it all demonstrated by the manufacturers. Your fortunate to be so close, I have to fly down from New Hampshire for it every two years.

I'll actually look into it. It's only $10 for 4 days...........

Now if I can figure something for my wife to do during the time I'm there:o

[John Bush]

Hi John,
I've had the SS for 1 1/2 years now and bought it because I wanted to upgrade from a smaller Cab saw, and also I am a Dentist and have a keen interest in keeping my digits intact. The brake mechanism seems like more of a silent safety partner while the riving knife or blade quard feel like the true safety feature(s) of the saw. I had never installed the blade guard on my old TS, and now I couldn't imagine firing up the SS without the knife or guard in place. I've had no misfires and fortunately no need to sample the braking prowess of the SS, but I still feel good that I have the mechanism online if needed.

John, I'd recommend that you tryout a saw with a good, integral riving knife(PM2000? & SS) then compare to a slider. I've used a high end slider once and it was very nice but over the top for a hobbiest, I think. However, the cost would be insignificant relative to an unwelcome career change. Good luck, JCB.

[J. Greg Jones]

I don't have the amount of experience you do but I have been riding on and off for about 30 years of my life, both on and off road. I see my statement as fair because even if you remove the idea of cars hitting you there is a far greater likelihood of having a crash and getting hurt when riding a motorcycle than when driving any 4 wheeled vehicle.
Bruce

I think we are in agreement that riding a motorcycle is inherently more dangerous. I interpreted your earlier comment of Would it be fair then to say that riding a motorcycle is no more dangerous than any other form of transportation provided you observe all safety guidelines? as saying that motorcycling is no more dangerous than other forms of transportation.

[tod evans]

I've never really looked into sliding TSs.

I know of the MiniMax ones and that's about it. Could you all give me some direction for sliding TSs you have, or have seen?

john, a german company has developed safety equipment that is really good functional stuff martin offers their gear, it`s called aigner. here`s a link to a saw most of us dream about;
http://www.martin-usa.com/products_details.asp?Productid=53&categoryid=1
not cheap by any means but probably as safe and accurate a way to process wood as any means available. it`s my understanding that minimax is offering aigner products too? as you probably know i use minimax equipment, it`s safe and accutate and in a price bracket i can deal with. in my opinion the martin i gave you a link to and the altendorf;
http://www.altendorfamerica.com/equipment/manufacturers/altendorf/f45/f45_select.htm
are the two best saws made today. if you can write the check for either of these saws your kids might be breaking them in when they retire. in a hobbiest enviornment i can never see wearing one out, they`re well made safe pieces of equipment.
bear in mind the links i`ve given are the best saws i know of for use as a conventional slider...02 tod

[Ian Barley]

... you might say they put a helmet on the motorcycle rider. Where is the rest of the safety gear?

Burt

Not really. If you consider the way that the device works and you want to make a comparison to a motorcycle then they but a "world eliminator" on the bike. Basically bear in mind that contact with the blade not only makes the blade stop but removes it from the travel path in a very, very short space of time. To make a comparison with a motorcycle it would have to be fitted with a device that makes inattentive motorists vaporise on contact with the motorcycle. Now that I would buy!

Basically, to paraphrase scotty, "You cannot change the laws of physics". Anything which has enough energy to cause the bonds between the atoms in a piece of wood to be seperated will do the same thing to tissue and bone. Short of the day when somebody invents a method to make the wood want to do this of its own accord every tool, or combination of tools, designed to do so will carry the risk of doing it to the wrong material. It doesn't matter whether the tool has been designed from scratch or adapted. It will still carry a risk. All you can do is use levels of active (push stick, stance, planning etc..) and passive (guards, protective equipment etc..) safety methods which mitigate the risks which arise based on your usage profile.

I have an upcut crosscut saw. It is basically a corsscut saw with modifications for safety The circular saw blade rotates in a sealed cavity (mod 1) which is interlocked to interrupt the power if the cavity is unsealed (mod 2). The cutting cycle is activated by the simultaneous pressing of two buttons (mod 3) which are positioned about 2' apart in such a way that they can only be depressed simultaneously using your left and right hand (mod 4). When they are depressed a blade guard is pneumatically lowered until the workpiece is securely clamped (mod 5) and at that point the blade rises up and the section which protrudes through the workpiece is completely enveloped by the top guard. When the buttons are released at the end of the cycle the guard remains in place until the blade is once again completely below the table (mod 6). I consider this to be as close as I can get to a completely safe, low effort way to perform this job. The saw cost me about $4500 and it isn't even adjustable - it just cuts 90 degrees every single time. If I made that cut 10, 100 or even a thousand times a year it would probably be overkill. As I do it tens of thousands of times a year it is a great value way to take at least that risk away from my working day.

Thats why I say if you are serious about spending more than a few hours a month on woodworking and have decided that a TS is a tool that you are going to own, seriously, really seriously, consider how to make sure that it is the safest TS that you can afford. And in my book that means SawStop or euro slider.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I think we are in agreement that riding a motorcycle is inherently more dangerous. I interpreted your earlier comment of Would it be fair then to say that riding a motorcycle is no more dangerous than any other form of transportation provided you observe all safety guidelines? as saying that motorcycling is no more dangerous than other forms of transportation.

I was making reference to David Duke's statement in post #4 that read,"I am of the opinion that the TS is no more dangerous than any other tool in the shop provided you use proper technique and observe all safety guidelines "...Snip. I thought that with respects to safety and using proper technique, comparing a TS to other powerful cutting tools in the shop was similar to the difference between riding a motorcycle versus other forms of transportation. Even when using all available safety precautions and techniques, a table saw will always be potentially more dangerous than other tools in a shop just as a motorcycle will always be more dangerous than a car on the road. My opinion, of course and I was just trying to illustrate my point using the motorcycle as an example. Maybe I wasn't successful? Wouldn't be the first time. :D

Bruce

[Michael Cody]

I honestly and respectfully question this. I do not think Sawstop is state of the art safety because it's too narrowly focused. It is geared to handle one fear: injury by the cutting blade on one tool. I know a shop teacher who cut off parts of several fingers in a jointer. We've all heard of terrible accidents where clothing or hair was caught up in a spinning arbor of some sort and the person was literally scalped. Nailing guns have their own hit parade of amazing videos floating around the Internet.

Safety considerations in woodworking should be more comprehensive.

Have you ever been in a roomful of long time woodworkers? It looks like a hearing aid convention! We won't mention the hacking coughs that seem to go with the hearing aids. Many people have already mentioned the frequency of kickbacks. I've seen people kneel on the floor to view the lineup between wood and saw blade - while the saw was still on! A lot of things can happen besides falling into a spinning blade.

When the loss potential is VERY high, it's a good idea to optimize the problem definition. Sliding saws, a stock feeder maybe, Festool (or some other system that tries to limit dust exposure), engineering design of the entire system so JK can do the kind of woodworking he likes with the least overall risk. Don't stop at the Sawstop. Think bigger.

My single quote about "state-of-the-art" is a touch out of context in your reply, but basically I was saying there is no other method on the planet I know of that will stop the blade if you run a piece of you into it.. "NOTHING" else that does that.. I also made a strong point that you still use all the safety procedures, tricks, tips, etc, just like the trapeze performer, but the saw stop is your safety net. It's not instead of other techniques -- it's IN ADDITION TO other techniques. Like I said you only have to screw up once to change your life -- sorta like sex ... DINO said it best, lets see a saw stop w/a euro slider and power feeder, then we'd have something!

We've become a country scared of our shadows. We take stupid risks because no one wants to encumbered, then take avoidable risks in the name economy or the "it won't happen to me syndrome". We could easily stop speeding on the highway for a few hundred million dollars in technology, but instead we kill 50k a year -- but we spend millions of dollars to ban ephedra when aspirin has killed more people. That SAW STOP is a low cost option (compared to life of the saw) that stops one type of accident that will cost Thousands of times more than that cost of the saw, if it happens, not to mention the human cost. It's a no brainer to me. As Jim said in the song -- you don't spit into the wind, you don't tug on superman's cape.......................

[Dino Makropoulos]

... DINO said it best, lets see a saw stop w/a euro slider and power feeder, then we'd have something!

-- you don't spit into the wind, you don't tug on superman's cape.......................

Give credit to:


Invariably when Saw Stop is mentioned there are a bunch of responses like: "I'd rather have a power feeder," or" A sliding table is all you need", or "good practices are more important", etc. etc. And each such response certainly makes sense, but why are they usually phrased in such a way as being alternatives to Saw Stop as opposed to additions? Why not use every safety measure possible? The consensus seems to be the SS is a quality saw; so if you can afford it, why not buy it? I sure would if I could.

I'd really appreciate an answer to this question from any of the folks whose post is in the nature of diminishing the importance of SS.

[Charlie Plesums]

I'll actually look into it. It's only $10 for 4 days...........

Now if I can figure something for my wife to do during the time I'm there:o
My wife really enjoyed the last IWF in Atlanta. It isn't the usual hobby woodworking show where you look for bargains on router bits... it is the show where furniture factories buy their equipment - an amazing gee-whiz show if nothing else. But they do have all the major vendors of equipment from Porter Cable (with Norm Abrams signing autographs) through Saw Stop, MiniMax, and the very high end saws like Martin and Altendorf. My wife and I spent four full days, and didn't see it all.

MiniMax won my money, and I am a big fan, so I will undoubtedly stop by to see all the latest they have. I have their 5 function combination machine and a 24 inch bandsaw, and would be glad to chat about my decision process if you want to talk.

[Sonny Porter]

Invariably when Saw Stop is mentioned there are a bunch of responses like: "I'd rather have a power feeder," or" A sliding table is all you need", or "good practices are more important", etc. etc. And each such response certainly makes sense, but why are they usually phrased in such a way as being alternatives to Saw Stop as opposed to additions? Why not use every safety measure possible?

Actually, this isn't a bad idea, as ideas go. It would be fine to suit up for nuclear war every time we step into the workshop and buy every single thing that could prevent accidents and injuries. But usually, people in the real world have financial limits that prevent that. There are also compatibility and redundancy factors. If you use a guided-rail system to avoid amputations and kickback, maybe you don't actually need a table saw at all - you're using another way to cut wood. One day, we'll probably use Lasers to cut wood with CNC machines and this whole thread will seem quaint. (Don't laugh - who would have predicted so many things which have taken the world by storm the last 25 years?)

I noticed early on that Sawstop would cost as much as the next two or three safety systems combined. I had little faith that they cared about affordability. Like early Volvos, the marketing proposition is strong enough to withstand comparison with alternatives - nobody else is working that niche. I expect that to change. I see changes in routers already - Porter-Cable and DeWalt both have tried to design dust collection into recent designs, for instance.

Sawstop will try hard to defend patents that make it impossible for anyone else to develop alternatives. Using the capacitance of the human body as a switching mechanism isn't all that original, for instance (it's been used in elevators for decades), nor the idea of using moisture detection to differentiate flesh from inanimate matter. These core patents might be challenged sometime. If it is, we could see competition in this field explode. If the Sawstop mechanism cost $50, how many people would turn it down?

Aside from price, I honestly think Sawstop sets hackles up in the woodworking community by its history of trying to force the system's adoption through political action instead of market attraction. If not for this political element, they could rely on the woodworking magazine community to give them free publicity year after year after year - until there was some mass of users which could act as a market wedge. It would seem Sawstop doesn't want to wait for persuasion.

[Jeff Fritzson]

Everytime you buy a tool or anything else for that matter these four items will always come into play. The first thing is usually how much money can I spend and what do I need.

You start to figure out your budget and your needs. This could take 5 seconds or 5 months or more but eventually you decide on a budget and the needs you require. You will then start looking at different machines. You are looking to find the machine that matches your need for the right price. As you go through this, your needs and budgets can fluctuate.

I think this is where you are John. It doesn't really matter what any of us has to say except for providing you with good information. It is really how you decide what weight each of your needs has for you and the budget you have set.

Based on my limited knowledge of what you are asking and your special circumstance of being a surgeon, my guess is safety is a very high priority, followed closely by performance. I have no idea what your budget is but I break down tablesaws into four categories:
Contractor(300-1k), Cabinet(750-4k), Euro sliders(4k-10k), combos (7.5K - ??). They also go up in price accordingly.

If you are looking for safety, I think (strictly my opinion) the best you will get is the Euro sliders. Your hands are no where near the blades and the nature of the machanics greatly decreases kickback. The next safest is probably the Sawstop. I am not looking at adding additional machines such as a power feeder but that is yet another consideration. Of course this is always assuming you use safe and proper techniques for each machine. Even with all the proper and safe techniques, accidents do happen.

As you move closer to a buying decision you are going to rethink the costs, the risks and what you really need. For me, I started with a contractor saw (first tool on a budget.) I have since upgraded and I always thought I would wait and upgrade to a Sawstop but budget just didn't allow. I now have a left tilt Unisaw (with some incentives it was a third of the price of a Sawstop.) When (notice not if) I upgrade again I will have to re-evaluate my needs (have I gone into semi retirement and am now building furniture, or small boxes or turning more pieces) and make a decision. The decision may be to stay with what I have............nah :D If I had unlimited space and budget I would be shopping for sliders and or combos.

I hope this helps. Gather the information and make the right decision for you.

Regards,
Jeff

[Charles Wade]

No brainer. The Sawstop is the one substantial investment you can make which makes your shop safer when your fingers get near the blade. It offers protection NOW when that 1 in 1000 accident situation arises. Nothing else can do this. Losing your fingers would make a disastrous change in your career. It might get even safer if you added a slider (another thread in today's Creek) bit it makes your shop safer. Do it.

[Allen Bookout]

I guess that I am going to have to see a live demo of the Sawstop. I just cannot believe that anything could stop a blade turning at that speed fast enough to keep it from cutting off your finger if you get it in there. And also is it going to work every time? And like all electronics, for how long?

I am just a little leary.

Anyone out there brave enought to stick your finger in there and give it a try?

I am not for or against but these are just thoughs that go throught my head everytime that this subject comes up.

Allen

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

If you can afford it look long and hard at the Euro Sliders. You almost have to plan your injury days in advance they are so safe.
And you get a slider.
There is nothing on gods green earth so nice as a slider.

Look at Felder, & MiniMax,
Martins are nice if you are willing to pay over $20 Grand.

[Lee DeRaud]

And also is it going to work every time?It doesn't have to work "every time", it only has to work once: when it triggers, it trashes the brake module (and the blade) and you start over with a new one. And the saw is dead in the meantime, so you have plenty of time to think about whatever stupid thing you did to make it trip in the first place. :p

Of course the downside of that is that you can't really test it.

[Vaughn McMillan]

I guess that I am going to have to see a live demo of the Sawstop. I just cannot believe that anything could stop a blade turning at that speed fast enough to keep it from cutting off your finger if you get it in there. ...
Allen, if you haven't seen it, you should check out the "hot dog demo" video on the Sawstop site:

http://sawstop.com/

- Vaughn

[jack duren]

A SawStop,slider nor powerfeed are going to eliminate an accident. If a person tries hard enough he/she is going to get hurt. I've seen employees hurt on sliders and powerfeeds. SawStop is pretty new so dont know about it but I dont think I'd turn my back on an opportunity to own and use one if the chance came up.

I dont see the point of the arguements of improving safety. Just ignorance...Jack

[Joe Jensen]

john, at the risk of being redundant, please give a serious look-see at the sliders. charlie and paul, myself and several other folks on this forum alone use these tools daily and can attest to the inherent safety by design. honestly even a sawstop doesn`t offer the degree of safety these bigger sliders do and as an additional bonus you`ll get the accuracy and clean cuts that no other system offers in both hardwoods and sheetgoods. the dust collection is state of the art, on my saw the design of the blade flask will propell most dust into the lines even when i forget to turn on the dust collector. i don`t use the overhead guard, but everyone i`ve spoke to says they`re very effective at containing top of the table dust.
if you where to go with a slider and a feeder i cannot think of any tablesaw opperation where your body would be in jeopardy. tod

Todd, what you say is true, but don't you really need a two saws, one slider, which needs a 8 feet in front, behind, and to the left of the blade. A slider like this is like $10-20K. Plus, wouldn't you need second saw with a feeder on it? Most of the folks on the forum are making due with a 1-2 car garage, or maybe a 3 car garage. I am lucky enough to use most of a 3 car garage, but I don't see how I could fit a slider in my shop along with the planer, shaper, RAS, Drill Press, Bandsaw, and Jointer. I'd love a big slider, someday when I get a dedicated shop.

[Joe Jensen]

John Kain, your risks are different from the usual, the extra money isn't all that important compared to injuring your career and there's no competition for that particular format of saw yet so it's a logical contender.

HOWEVER, if you really are concerned with health - why stop there, why stop at trying to handle only one risk? Why go with any table saw rather than, for instance, the Festool saw-on-a-rail system which also spends a great deal of engineering effort on dust control? No lesser light than Nick Engler (bigtime woodworking author who's also famous for being down to earth) has said he thought people could do fine woodworking with the Festool saw system. Capture the spinning blade on a rail and you severely lower the risks of amputations and kickbacks both. An additional benefit of the Festool system is that it was designed from the start to produce VERY little free dust - it's a whole different approach to woodworking safety. More comprehensive, don't you think? They have sanders and routers as well, all designed to throw their output into a vac system. You can afford nearly the whole line for the cost of one Sawstop.

The Sawstop only addresses one fear: amputation or severe cutting injury. Speak to some shop teachers. Kickback is also a KILLER. How happy would those untouched hands be if you were speared by a flying missile of oak which was, a millisecond ago, spinning around at 140 mph three feet away from your reproductive organs?

Inhaling toxic wood dust for decades also adds up to a measurable risk, IMHO. (IMHO = In My Humble Opinion, an acronym from the Jurassic Period of personal computers.)

There's more to woodworking risks than cutting injuries from falling into the saw blade of a table saw. This might be a good time to think beyond the box and consider the whole range of issues which might affect your safety long term. Off the top of my head, I'd consider the risks to vision, lungs, hands, body parts in the way of kickbacks and hearing. Which parts of these health issues would not affect your professional performance?

So you are saying that even though you can reduce the risk of the TS, you shouldn't bother since there are other risks too?

[Bruce Benjamin]

Allen, if you haven't seen it, you should check out the "hot dog demo" video on the Sawstop site:

http://sawstop.com/

- Vaughn

Question: How often has someone cut their hand on a saw by slowly feeding it into the blade? I would think that most accidents happen pretty quickly so I'd assume the Sawstop wouldn't be as effective there. I recall in another more heated thread recently about the Sawstop that there was a quote from the Sawstop FAQs about this. I think the reply from Sawstop was that if your hand was moving faster the injury could be very serious. When I pushed my finger into the side of my RAS blade my hand started out about 6" or so from the blade. I sneezed hard and accidentally jerked my hand quickly into the blade. I'm certain that my hand was moving faster than that hot dog is in the video. With my injury all I did was take the padding off the end of my left middle finger right to the bone. I was luck it wasn't worse. As fast as my hand was moving I doubt that the Sawstop technology would've prevented that level of injury in my case but it might have kept a worse injury from happening if the specific circumstances would've been even slightly different.

My point being that the hot dog video only shows it effectiveness in one limited circumstance that I don't think is very realistic. Who slowly pushes their finger into a spinning saw blade? Some do I suppose but most are probably a lot faster, like when there's a kickback and suddenly the wood isn't there anymore. Why don't they show a video where the hot dog is moving at a more realistic speed? Slip! Bam! Oh $#:^ !!!

Bruce

[Joe Jensen]

Actually, I read the stuff the Sawstop folks inserted into the Congressional record and when I looked at the data they cited, the number of accidents which led to more than trivial scrapes or cuts is around 25,000. (Look up their "testimony," it reads like a sales brochure, it's almost a script of their previous press releases.)

I'd like to see some refresher data on how much money those injuries cost and how rerouting that money to Sawstop would make woodworking any safer for those who aren't in a position to spend $2,000+ on a table saw. Are we going to make woodworking safer by making it less accessible? If you don't let people ski, you certainly will lower the number of ski accidents.

What do we lose if the entire bottom of the market is ripped out? What do we lose if we only have one saw company allowed to sell to schools, factories, public agencies spending tax dollars? We can see the gain to Sawstop. What's the gain to us as taxpayers, as citizens, as woodworkers? We might gain something from banning poor people from owning a table saw - but does the United States want to be that type of country? Do we really want to prevent working class people from owning affordable table saws?

While it's tempting to forget the limits of economies and say things like, "If it prevents ONE ACCIDENT, it's worth 87 kajillion dollars," it's not true in the real world. In the real world, we put numbers into the risk/benefit ratio when we decide what to buy. Private individuals do not typically spend $2,500 to cover a $1,000 risk. People spending other people's money are often not so restrained.

When you amortize out the excess cost of the Sawstop saws over those 25,000 accidents it might have saved the nation, IMHO: the Sawstop impressed me as the most expensive way for this society to meet the need for more safety around table saws.

It's been a while since I read those docs, I don't even have them on this computer, but my lasting impression was that one of the major sources of controversy in this issue is Sawstop's energetic pursuit of legal/legislative force rather than market persuasion to make its case. They apparently aren't able to scare the hell out of enough woodworkers to make the money they want to from this thing -- so they're happy to try making an end run around the marketplace by going down political paths instead. When people do that to a community which has a lot of independent minded constituents, they will find resistance. I'd bet some of the valence of Sawstop threads comes from that resistance.

I see, you are one of the people who dislike Sawstop because of their attempt to require this technology. I think the original poster was asking if as a surgeon a SawStop was a good idea, and he asked if they are well made.

[Allen Bookout]

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti Sawshop and the demos are impressive. I just had some of those lingering thoughts in my mind. I just hope that it is really dependable.

I guess one thing is that you never think that you will be the one so it is hard to part with the extra dollars. Once you have no fingers on one hand I guess that you would think otherwise. On the other hand if you get away with no injuries -------.

I am not going to look at those videos again. Makes me nervous. If nothing else they make you realize once more that you really need to stay far away from the blade no matter what it takes and not get complacent.

Thanks! Allen

[Joe Jensen]

If you have a power feeder, it would be a waste of money. Your fingers would never even get close to the blade. I'd spend it on better/more feeder wheels, better fence system, better blade(s).

I have nothing against Sawstop, I just think kickback is FAR more an issue than getting your fingers into the blade.

I'd like to see some more manufacturers put OFF/Emergency switches in a better, more accessible spot. Preferrably where you could hit them with your knee/leg. 9 outta 10 times that I've gotten into a sawing situation that required I stop it, finding and getting to the off switch is quite a challenge!
Do you mean a stop switch like on the SawStop (sorry, I couldn't resist :) )

[Per Swenson]

Wow 5 pages,

I was gonna stay away, Nah.

Im my opinion the sawstop cabinet saw is the best made saw under $10,000 American. Period. I am not talking sawstop tech. Leave that out for the moment. I am not talking slider I am talking cabinet saw. Next step up
is the 10 grand Northfield. Oh he didn't say that. Yes I did.

I am staying away from the slider discussion 'cause room is a issue.
So is price. We will wait on one until the next expansion.
I make my living, my sole income from this woodworking/carpentry thing
of ours,kinda makes me all about the Benjamins.

This translates to a spread sheet on every purchase Swenson & Swenson
makes.

So we bought one.

As my Father said while he was on the phone placing the order
(while I yelled in the backround " what are you doing with my money")

"Per you would have to be stupid not to buy this saw."

Me, 30 years in the trades I have all my fingers.

The old man 62 years (He is,81 so I guess) messin with spinning sawblades.

All his digits intact. Are we super careful? You bet.

My son is 16, first year on the saw.

So, the $500 premium for the technology is nothing but

extra insurance. I wanna keep em. My familys fingers that is.

About the kick back to the privates comment, the riving knife negates that

and you must have some pretty long legs.

Bottom line, Sawstop, or the $20,000 slider I want.

Nope, this year I will keep the difference.

There is this really nice Boston Whaler down the street, I can pick it up for

8 grand.

Per

[Charlie Plesums]

Todd, what you say is true, but don't you really need a two saws, one slider, which needs a 8 feet in front, behind, and to the left of the blade. A slider like this is like $10-20K. Plus, wouldn't you need second saw with a feeder on it? Most of the folks on the forum are making due with a 1-2 car garage, or maybe a 3 car garage. I am lucky enough to use most of a 3 car garage, but I don't see how I could fit a slider in my shop along with the planer, shaper, RAS, Drill Press, Bandsaw, and Jointer. I'd love a big slider, someday when I get a dedicated shop.
Joe, I don't know where you live, but you are welcome to visit my shop in Austin, Texas. I have an 8 1/2 foot slider (with a 12 inch blade it requires 18 feet from one extreme to the other, but that space is often shared with other equipment or projects), plus a lathe, 24 inch band saw, 14 inch bandsaw, 16 inch jointer/planer, shaper, mortiser, power feeder, drill press, radial arm saw, drum sander, dust collector, two spray setups, a couple hundred board feet of wood, and countless small tools, in a two car "shop." Furthermore, in less than 20 minutes, I can clear enough room to put one of the cars in the garage (the smaller tools roll into the workspace around the larger tools).

Is the equipment expensive? Yes. Is it crowded? Yes. Do I enjoy making furniture full-time in that shop? Yes. Would I love to have a larger shop Yes. But only having a 2 car space available isn't reason to avoid the large euro-style machines in a complete woodworking shop. My safety, precision, and productivity skyrocketed when I sold my traditional jointer, planer, and tablesaw, and went with the MiniMax. Come see it!

[tod evans]

Todd, what you say is true, but don't you really need a two saws, one slider, which needs a 8 feet in front, behind, and to the left of the blade. A slider like this is like $10-20K. Plus, wouldn't you need second saw with a feeder on it? Most of the folks on the forum are making due with a 1-2 car garage, or maybe a 3 car garage. I am lucky enough to use most of a 3 car garage, but I don't see how I could fit a slider in my shop along with the planer, shaper, RAS, Drill Press, Bandsaw, and Jointer. I'd love a big slider, someday when I get a dedicated shop.

joe, it`s nice to have two saws, one with a feeder but a feeder will bolt to a slider very easily. as for the money? i`m basing my posts on what little i know of john kain, he`s a neurosurgeon/woodworker who would like to be as safe as possible while pursuing his hobby. as charlie said small sliders fit in a garage. sure these saws are expensive but so is neurosurgery...the two saws i posted links to are what i think represent "best in class" they`re way out of my budget and honestly i don`t think they`d be any safer than my ol` minimax...but holy cow are they sweet! if i had the money for a once in a lifetime saw purchase i`d be seriously looking at those two. reality for me is i bought what i feel is the best on the market for my limited funds, and it wasn`t as cheap as a sawstop. but i do feel it`s safer and offers more flexability.....02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Joe,
I, like Charlie, have a whole lot-o-equipment in my shop. My shop was my former two car garage - 24x24. In it I have a MM 10.5 ft slider, MM 16" j/p, MM shaper, MM24" bandsaw, drill press, big compressor, router table/outfeed table on myslider,belt/disc sander, DC, work benches, wood storage.... point is it all fits. I have planned out work heights so that nothing interferes with something adjacent. This way everything is stationary and I max-out my machining ability. The only thing that is mobile is my MM FS41 16" j/p. I can roll this out of the way if I am doing a big assembly.

Sliders while they take up a lot of space while in use to their full capacity with the outrigger table & main crosscut fence on, do not take up that and more stationart floor space than a CS with a 52" or so rip fence. Sliders also come in different sizes depending on your needs: 5.5ft, 8.5ft, 10.5ft, etc...

Check out some of my past posts here for some of my pictorals of my slider in use.

Some of these sliders are in the 8-9k new range so they are somewhat reasonable looking at from strictly a dollar point of view. Safety wise...they are priceless.

I personally can not think of any better way to be safer...and that is remove yourself from the vicinity of the spinning blade and use mechanical means to hold your stock down.

My dream saw is right here:

http://www.scmgroup-usa.com/machines/standard_line/si400series.html

[Troy Vieira]

Hi guys. My name is Troy. Just a hobbiest woodworker that usually only lurks around this site for helpful info.

I have this picture framed in my shop. It reminds me to pay attention and to be safe. It's a TS accident as you can probably tell by the kerf in my finger! I finished cutting a small board, turned off the saw, reached over to pick up the piece but the blade wasn't done spinning down. PRESTO! Lots of pain and aggravation for the next several months. Lucky for me the finger looks as good as new now.

Feel free to print it out as a reminder if you'd like.

-Troy

41948

[Gary Curtis]

I studied table saws for 1 year before buying one. When it proved impossible to pay for a EFS (Euro slider), I selected a General 350 with a 5hp motor and their sliding table. Total cost about $3900, a bit less than the SawStop. I also visited the the shops of friends and 4 or 5 machine tool importer dealerships.

Since I'm a beginner woodworker, there is no better time for me to develop safe habits. I'm in newly built house, so I used hundreds of board feet of scraps to practrice rip cuts and crosscuts. The latter are a 'no-brainer' with a sliding table, as I can clamp the wood to the table and run it thru the blade standing 4 feet to the left of the kerf.

Larger boards (width) can be rip-cut the same way. Smaller ones require that I develop safe habits. The European sliders suchn as Mini-Max, Knapp and Felder have a real advantage with ripping. So, I choreographed my hand/body movements over perhaps 100+ rip cuts. Now, my hands follow an orchestrated pattern. And, I use every safety gadget I can find - push sticks, face mask, polycarbonate safety glasses, Grip Tite magnetic featherboards. My splitter and blade guard are then typical crap. I await the day when General will sell bolt-on replacements that follow the European style -- with dust collection.

I watched a few videos of Kelly Mehler and other instructors operating saws. Just treat it as dance with a dangerous machine, and practice the right steps.

Gary Curtis
California

[Steveo O'Banion]

john, since you asked about saw injuries, all of mine have been from kickbacks. so arm yourself with that knowledge whichever saw you decide to get. the missiles that occasionally shoot out of a saw have the abiliy to do severe damage, especially to your hands as they`re in the line of fire. not trying to scare you but stuff happens and meat-n-bone are no match for flung boards..02 tod

I absolutely agree Todd, in 30 + years I've never had or witnessed an injury involving the body touching the blade, but have had more kickback than I care to admit. HOWEVER, if you can afford it, I'd get the safe saw. I've seen it at the store, it is a nice looking solid machine, I'm trying to get one for school.

I'd also recommend a Brett Guard and riving knife with kickback fingers, safety devices I use at school with a lot of success.

Steve