Handsaws

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Well, I got got though plunking down several thousand $$ on power tools when I realized the only handsaws I have are an old dull hacksaw and a drywall saw. So, I need some good handsaws. While I am a power tool guy, I would like to have the ability to cut the occassional tenon or dovetail when the need arises. I've tried the Japanese-style saws and I like the way they feel. Does anyone have Lee Valley's Japanese Rip Dozuki and Flush Cut Saws?

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&cat=1,42884&p=50663

The price seems ok for the amount of use they'd get and I do trust that Lee Valley wouldn't sell it if it were crap. Any feedback would be appreciated.

EDIT: Just realized I probably should have posted this in the neanderthal forum. Admin: feel free to move.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

They are nice, so too the English style back saws. Go on over to the Neander furum and you'll get boatloads of information.

[Don Baer]

I have an old Diston cross cut and a Buck back sawthat serve me well. For the occasional use. Not every expesive either.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Rob, for a Japanese saw and price/bang for the buck, it is hard to beat the Odate DT saw that Joel at Tools for Working Wood sells:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JS340.XX&Category_Code=TSJ

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Well, I got got though plunking down several thousand $$ on power tools when I realized the only handsaws I have are an old dull hacksaw and a drywall saw.
<sniparoo>sniparoo...
Does anyone have Lee Valley's Japanese Rip Dozuki and Flush Cut Saws?Not for nothing, but you spend several thousand $$$s on power tools and now you're trying to find a cheap handsaw? My suggestion, invest a little more $$$s and get a nice saw.

If you want a Japanese saw, look at the Mitsukawa's or similar. You can get a nice one for about $125-$150 I would bet.

If you want a western style saw, contact Mike Wenzloff or Leif Hanson and get a decent hand saw made for you.

OTOH, some folks use a shark saw and are happy. Maybe you're one of them.;)
</sniparoo>

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Personally, I have the LV flush cut saw, use it fairly frequently.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Alan, who said anything about trying to find a cheap handsaw? Prices are relative so really don't know what's expensive and what's not when it comes to those saws. If I can get a good quality saw for a good price, I'll take it. If your feelings are that those ones are junk, just say that.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Thanks for the link, Mike. I'll check it out.

[Mike Wenzloff]

You're welcome, Rob.

Also, the Odate I linked to is best for slightly thicker wood, say 1/2" up. For thinner wood, there is also one Joel calls a special dovetail saw by Odate. It has more tpi, which is a good thing if you are doing thicknesses below 1/2"

Joel also sells many other types of saw, including the Mitsukawa. Feel free to call Joel and talk about your wants. He'll be straight with you.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Rob,

Wasn't trying to be sarcastic or smart or anything, but I happen to feel that most all of the disposable pull saws are garbage. Most of them will not cut hardwoods well, and can't be sharpened, so folks just throw them away and get a new blade.

For a higher quality pull saw, something like a Mitsukawa 13 tpi rip is a much nicer saw, is handmade, and can be resharpened (most send them out I hear). These saws will cut hardwoods well. It all depends on the wood you prefer to work with.

Please take my comments with a grain of large rock salt, I have a disposable dozuki that I rarely use, and it can't cut hardwoods for me well at all.

If you're looking for a cheap, inexpensive saw, that can cut ok and is easy to use, most of the disposables will fit that need.

I prefer western style saws though, and owning the pull saw made me realize how much better I like to push, rather than pull (I learned with a western style saw as a kid). However, pull does make sense to me in how the blade is always taught with less chance of binding or kinking during the cut.

Consider a vintage western style saw also, they make great joinery saws and are easy to file up.

My comments were comming from the standpoint that if you had spent several thousand $$$s on power tools, you probably got decent tools. So, realize that hand tools are no different and in many cases you get what you pay for. The used market is the exception, where you can pick up some great deals on old tools.

Whatever tools you buy, buy the best quality you can find, and this applies to hand tools as well. I love much of the LV tools, just that those disposable saws are not on the top of my "buy list", and not pin pointing out the LV, I'm talking about all disposable Japanese style saws that sell for $30-$50 which are plentifully available (Z saws, and other similar).

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Fair enough, Alan. I hadn't realized that those saws fell in the "disposable" category. Apparently, I'll need to do some more research on this. Thanks to all for your comments.

[Dan Evans]

Lie- Nielsen has some extremely nice back saws that come sharpened and truely ready to go. They are especially good in hardwood which is where the japanese Saws are not quite as good. I love my japanese tools but use Western back saws for two reasons:sooner or later all saws, like all cutting tools need to be sharpened.

You have three choices with the japanese: sharpen it yourself which is extremely hard, send it to Japan to have it sharpened which takes a few months, or replace the blade. Most sold are of the latter. I have a few and like them but again when you try to cut dovetails with a japanese saw in oak or maple it takes twice as long.

Learnihg to sharpen Western saws takes some prictise but is well worth the effort.Another plus for L-N is they sharpen their saws for about $15.
I still say sharpening a hand saw is a very valuable skill.

Dan

[Jim Becker]

If you speak with Joel at Tools For Working Wood (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com), ask about the Adria dovetail saw. I've been very pleased with mine...so much so that I may buy an Adria cross-cut saw to "match". (so I'm anal...what can I say...) But I will be honest and say I find Mike W's saws to be very appealing!

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I wound up with some Tim Hoffman (Spruce Mill) saws mostly because I was pondering them when he just finished a pair. So I bought them (and a stair saw). There's several good small sawmakers.

I hope someday to own saws from each. :)

[Brian Kent]

I spent $30 on a 240mm Ryoba (double edged) Japanese saw. 9 teeth per inch on the rip side and 22 teeth per inch on the crosscut side. I used it to cut most of my workbench top when my cheap old table saw died and my nice new Grizzly hadn't yet arrived.

I used it to cut 8/4 hard maple (7 to 8" cuts) and lots of 5" wide 8/4 purpleheart. My great joy came when on the purpleheart I would draw a line with a mechanical pencil and the resulting cross-cut would hold to the line so exactly that there was no trace of the pencil mark on either piece. The cut faces were smooth and sometimes did not need sanding or planing.

The real test came in cutting the purpleheart shoulder vise for a Frank Klaus style bench. I do not have a band saw, so I used the Ryoba for the big dovetail through double thick 4" wide 8/4. That means I was getting accurate cuts at an angle through purpleheart 4" x 3-1/2" thick. That was a good day for me.

After using the saw for several months including this hard stuff, I do not yet need a new blade. I can't tell the difference from new. One tooth was bent and tapped back so it wouldn't mar the cut. When I need a new blade it will cost $20, or less than an average sharpening.

I am highly satisfied.

[Mike Henderson]

I use Japanese saws also and am quite satisfied with them. I like the fact that they have disposable blades - I really don't want to have to learn to sharpen saws, I'd rather be doing woodworking.

I find that the blades last quite a long time - I have replaced one on a saw that I used a lot, but otherwise I'm still on the original blades. The manufacturer hardens the teeth since the blade will not be sharpened. Getting use to cutting on the pull stroke was not difficult at all. I've cut a wide variety of woods with them and haven't found any problems using them on any particular species.

All-in-all, I would highly recommend that you try Japanese saws. The original purchase price is not that high. If you decide you don't like them, I'd bet you could sell the saw to another woodworker for most of what you paid for it.

Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

...You have three choices with the japanese: sharpen it yourself which is extremely hard, send it to Japan to have it sharpened which takes a few months, or replace the blade. Most sold are of the latter. I have a few and like them but again when you try to cut dovetails with a japanese saw in oak or maple it takes twice as long....

Dan, it's only the hand made saws that you can sharpen yourself or send out, the replaceable bladed versions are mostly machine made and too brittle for resharpening.

As to dovetails, this is simply not true. Zip, zip, I'm done, with a Kanehu dozuki, a LV professional dozuki, etc. The only western saw I've used that is as fast is the LN straight handled dovetail saw.

Pam

[Alan DuBoff]

Dan, it's only the hand made saws that you can sharpen yourself or send out, the replaceable bladed versions are mostly machine made and too brittle for resharpening.This also narrows down the pack on who can be sharpened and not, since the majority of Japanese saws are disposable (i.e., can't be sharpened).

As to dovetails, this is simply not true. Zip, zip, I'm done, with a Kanehu dozuki, a LV professional dozuki, etc. The only western saw I've used that is as fast is the LN straight handled dovetail saw.The Takumi Dozuki (http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=3901) I bought says it is for dovetailing, yet you can't cut any wood with it harder than cardboard...ok, that might be stretching it a bit...:rolleyes: but you get the point. When I cut some very dense purple heart with it, it's like filing the wood, it would take so long it is easier to get another saw, even if it was a hack saw. :D

Probably just my dumb luck at selecting a Japanese saw. Had I to do it again, I know I wouldn't select that Takumi, but at the time it seemed like a better saw than the Z.

I have not encountered any piece of wood that resists cutting in that fashion with Mike Wenzloff's saws, or any of the other western style saws I have for that matter. As long as they're sharp, they cut through it all, hickory, purple heart, hard maple, oak, rosewoods, etc...