Block plane question?

[Mark Rios]

This is the first time (I think) that I've ventured into the Neander part of the Creek so please don't hurt me.;)

I've got a "Stanley 12-960 Contractor Grade Low Angle Block Plane". I use it (and a little teeny plane) to take the sharp edges off of stuff and to give me a little clearance on cabinet door edges and face frame edge and such. I really don't know much about using planes compared to the level that this forum exhibits. However, I know, from trial and error what the parts do and what not to touch so that I don't mess up the setting, i.e., the knob at the back makes the blade stick out more or less depending on which way it turns and so forth. I DO know to treat the plane with care and not lay it down on the bottom and stuff like that.

But, because of reading a Neander post the other day, I saw that my plane also has an adjustable mouth (is that what it's called?). I'm not really sure why this is there but that's a different thing.

My question is (finally), what difference would I see if I were to spend 3 to 4 times more money and get a Lee Valley or a Lie-Nielsen Low Angle Block plane? Isn't the business part of a plane just the blade? I realize that my ignorance is showing here but that's why I'm asking.

What do you get, other than a better looking plane, for the money? What and how are the better parts?

Thank you very much for any help and advice.

[Mike Henderson]

My first block plane was a modern Stanley (made in England). I worked and worked but I never could get a good edge on the blade and what I did get broke down quickly in use.

I bought a LV low angle and was amazed at the difference in the steel. I could put a good edge on it quickly and the edge would hold up quite a while. Since that time, I've also bought a LN 60 1/2R (rabbet) plane and found the same thing about the steel in the blade.

Another thing (which is of less importance but which contributes to the usage) is the support of the blade. Take the blade out and look at what supports it towards the sharp end. If your plane is like mine, you'll see a narrow ridge of machined material. If you look at the LV or LN, you'll see a machined area that's about 1" on the LV to about 1 1/2" on the LN. This supports the blade and minimizes flexing and chatter.

But the final thing that matters is how a plane performs for you. The best thing to do is to get your hands on a "high quality" block plane and see if it works better and feels good in your hands. That's the only test that matters.

I don't feel this way about all planes - I think many of the older Stanley bench planes are excellent planes - but the modern Stanley block planes are not very good (in my opinion).

Mike

[tod evans]

mark, the high end planes are made better, nicer fit-n-finish, better steel in the blade and easier to adjust. that said i use pre-war stanleys and a couple of record rebates. occasionally i`ll wish i had forked over the change for brass planes, but in the end for me anyway, owning and using a piece of american woodworking history means more to me than slick-n-new. .02 tod

[Mike Wenzloff]

... a couple of record rebates....owning and using a piece of american woodworking history ...
Well, and British :D

Take care, Mike

[Larry Rose]

Mark I have both Stanley block planes and L-N block planes. Although the Stanley planes are serviceable, the L-Ns are on a different level.

[tod evans]

busted:eek: let me appease myself with the stanley rebate plane gods;
41692

[William Daly]

The steel that the blade is made of is and how it ios sharpened , obviously, important.

Also, the seating or the position of the blade as it is held by the lever cap and how it rests against the plane also contribute to the quality of the cut.

The sole must be lapped or made flat. On less expensive palne body castings, the metal may be a tad warped. Try flatting the sole by rubbing it over 200/400/600/800 wet sandpaper glued to a thick peice of glass.

The adjustable mouth that you were referring to may be closed to 1/32 inch to give a very fine cut or opened all the way to give a rougher, thicker cut.

You may also want to buy an ECE Primus wooden plane. Go to WWW.THEBESTTHINGS.COM (http://www.THEBESTTHINGS.COM). and look for either ECE planes or Primus.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

The adjustable mouth closes down the opening (or widens it) between the blade and the front of the blade. If you're working highly figured woods, this will prevent tear-out. The shavings will need to be smaller, of course.

Think of it like adding a backer board to a piece you're crosscutting on a table saw -- except in this case, it's in the front. As you push down on your plane, in front of the iron, you can only press the wood down until the mouth opens up. From that point until it hits the blade, it's unsupported.

If you want to take more aggressive cuts, then you open the mouth further and advance the blade to take a deeper cut.

[Brian Hale]

I'd suggest you consider a Hock replacement blade for your plane and see how it cuts for you before you lay out the $$$ for a LV / LN. A quality blade can make a big difference in how your plane performs and how well it holds an edge. As long as your blade is sharp and adjusted and the sole of the plane reasonably flat, you'll have a nice performing plane.


http://www.hocktools.com/

Brian :)

[Mike Henderson]

Brian raises a good point, the possibility of improving your plane by replacing the blade with a better quality blade. While this is a lower cost solution than buying a new plane, I might not choose to go that way.

The Hock blade is about $45, plus shipping, but what you'll have is a cheap plane with a good blade. If you decide at some later time to sell that plane, you'll never get the full cost when you sell (maybe $45 for the plane and $50 for the blade (with shipping), or $95 total).

A LN plane is $135 from Fine Tools Journal, with no shipping charges. The Lee Valley is $110, plus $12 shipping or $122 total. While this is a bit more, you can sell your Stanley on EBay and get maybe $30 for it. And what you'll have is an excellent plane rather than a cheap plane with a good blade. And if you ever decide to sell the LN or LV, you'll get essentially your full cost out of it.

If you do decide to only replace the blade, Lee Valley sells an excellent A2 steel blade for only $24.50. See here (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=53846&cat=1,41182).

I'm basically a "thrifty" (read "cheap") woodworker, but this is one place where I'd bite the bullet and buy a good block plane rather than try to upgrade the one you have.

Mike

[Maurice Metzger]

Umm, what was the discussion about again? My mind went totally blank at the sight of all that rebate plane goodness! Wow, that's quite a set of planes Tod.

Maurice

[Alan Turner]

A fettled Stanley 60 1/2 low angle block plane is a servicable tool, but a new iron, form either Hock or LN would be a good investment. The tighter the mouth, the less tear out. One of the tricks of the classic smoothers which can do curly maple in either direction without tearout is the mouth opening. Often it is less than .001 in width, so you can't really take a shaving any thicker than about 4 or 5 thousanths or it clogs. You can shut down the mouth on a block plane to this tolerance also, and get sort of similar results. But, for all of that to work properly, the sole must be dead flat, which on a little plane only requires a few minutes on granite or glass with some 100 grit paper. No need to go to 400 or obove on the sole, im my opinion, but others may disagree. I never go finer than 220, and often only to 150 grit. The scratches hold the wax anyway. (:
All of that said, the price of a LN is still within reason, and is a lifetime investment. The better the plane, the more you will use it.

[Mark Rios]

Lots of good and helpful info so far. Thanks very much and Please keep it coming.

I saw the Hock site and replacement irons(?) and had the same thought as P. Michael: The iron would cost more than I paid for the plane, even more than it sells for now (at Amazon). so I'm leaning toward the LN. However, I have much to learn apparently from all of the good info thus far. Deodre's info is some of the stuff that I would love to know more about. Also, this was interesting from Alan:


.............But, for all of that to work properly, the sole must be dead flat, which on a little plane only requires a few minutes on granite or glass with some 100 grit paper. No need to go to 400 or obove on the sole, im my opinion, but others may disagree. I never go finer than 220, and often only to 150 grit. The scratches hold the wax anyway. (:
All of that said, the price of a LN is still within reason, and is a lifetime investment. The better the plane, the more you will use it.

Flattening the sole and waxing it?????????????:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: I have much to learn!


Thanks and tell me more?

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Oh, some of us consider flattening the sole and waxing it so common that we forget to mention it. Modern Stanley planes aren't ground as flat as the older ones -- and planes can wear to be unflat (especially if a heavy user's technique is off). Modern Stanleys also have much more pronounced machining ridges.

LN planes are ground to be flat within a thousandth over their length. I'm sure LV has some similar tolerance, but I can't recall what it is offhand.

[Doug Shepard]

Mark
I've got the same Stanley you do as well as 3 LN block planes (LA, Std, and rabbet). I still use the Stanley occasionally and it can be made to perform decently. Other than the other points already brought up, I think one difference you'd notice right away is that the LN's (and I suspect the LV's too) stay where you set them. With the Stanley, the adjusting mechanisms have a lot more backlash and you're constantly having to fiddle with them to keep the same cut setting. The other thing is less chatter. Due to the thicker blade and more mass they glide through the cuts more smoothly. Just my $0.02.

[Mark Rios]

Mark
I've got the same Stanley you do as well as 3 LN block planes (LA, Std, and rabbet). I still use the Stanley occasionally and it can be made to perform decently. Other than the other points already brought up, I think one difference you'd notice right away is that the LN's (and I suspect the LV's too) stay where you set them. With the Stanley, the adjusting mechanisms have a lot more backlash and you're constantly having to fiddle with them to keep the same cut setting. The other thing is less chatter. Due to the thicker blade and more mass they glide through the cuts more smoothly. Just my $0.02.


Hey...you just made me feel alot better and taught me some more. thanks very much. I was scratching my head REAL hard wondering why it seemed that the plane was cutting funny and why I had to adjust it so much. I thought it was me just not knowing what I was doing.

[James Mittlefehldt]

Actually if indeed the problem with your plane is the adjustment mechanism, then I would think you would be throwing good money after bad by investing in a new blade.

Having said that if you only use it occsionally and have no intention of using it more, than why bother with an expensive plane? Get an older Stanley or Record or Ohio Tool (my favourite old planes) and leave it at that.

I would also however suggest that if you were to try either the LV or LN, you would be surprised at the ease with which they work right out of the box. I have read a number of threads comparing the two both here and elsewhere and the only legitimate difference I can see is the way the two feel in your hand. Some find the LV too heavy or hard to use, while others prefer the extra mass. That aside they are both excellent and either would be fine.

You are not a Neander now you say? Well another caveat then, purchase one of the above mentioned planes at your peril and remember the words of Bilbo Baggins in The Lord Of The Rings, (I paraphrase here) you must be careful when you step out your door because you never know where you might be swept off to. You have been warned.

[Mark Rios]

Thanks again for all your advice thus far.

If I may, Let me ask this.......Would it be okay to get the Lie-Nielsen Rabbet Block Plane (L-N 60 1/2 R) to use as a regular block plane most of the time yet have the ability and function of the rabbet for when I need it? Why or why not, please? Would I need to treat it differently?


Thanks again.

[Mike Henderson]

I would not recommend attempting to use the rabbet plane as a regular block plane. It can be done but it's too easy to gouge the work (or yourself) because of the exposed blade on the sides, especially if you're still learning to use planes. Additionally, you can't adjust the mouth on the rabbet plane (it has a fixed mouth) as you can on the regular low-angle plane.

I would recommend that you purchase a regular (non-rabbet) block plane first. If you find that you need a rabbet plane later, and you only want one plane, then sell your 60 1/2 and buy a 60 1/2R. You'll get your money back for what you paid for the 60 1/2. But once you use the 60 1/2, I'll bet that you won't give it up.

Mike

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I pretty much agree with Mike on this one. Lie-Nielsen planes on eBay regularly sell for 80-90% of value, sometimes over list price. So I wouldn't worry too much about the "wrong" plane there. That said, low angle is better for end grain, and I'd therefore buy the 9-1/2 first.

[tod evans]

mark, everybody`s shooting straight, for the money where i in your shoes i`d cut a check for a ln-60 1/2. you`ll flat out love the plane and will quickly become hooked on quality tools and sharp blades. mike gave you fair warning, i find sharp steel far more addicting than spinning things so jump on in we`ll help you empty your checkbook;)
actually once you start using good planes, chisels, saws ect. it`s much easier to decide if you "need" new or if you want to rehab older stuff. each path has its benefits and i think we`ll all agree that no matter if you stick with the new offerings or go old your work will improve and you`ll be reaching for hand powered more often than power in lots of instances...02 tod

[Mark Rios]

Oh man....I fel my dogs starting to worry about eating for the next few months. :D :D :D


So........where's the best deal right now to buy a 60 1/2? I'd rather buy from a (reputable) company instead of someplace like ebay. Someone mentioned Fine Tool Journal for $135 to my door. Woodcraft has it on sale for $135 plus shipping. Any others?

[Ken Werner]

Being cheap, I wasn't gonna fork up the money for a LN or LV. I had a record 60 1/2 for years. Never could get it to excellent. Pretty good, maybe very good, but not excellent.

Finally dropped the dough for the littlest LN LA iron block plane -$75. What a difference. It really is worth the extra money. Then I found and bought [in a classified ad in a WW forum] an adjustable mouth standard angle LN block - wow, that is a sweet plane too...

As was said before, by the time you upgrade to a better blade, you can sell yours and buy a whole new better plane. Sell your pretty good plane on Ebay - I got about $33 for the record, and go with a LN or LV - you won't regret it - except of course for the slippery slope you'll put yourself on.....

I'm Ken and I'm a planeaholic.

[Mike Henderson]

This place (http://www.finetoolj.com/ln/blockplanes.html) has the lowest prices on LN planes that I've found - and free shipping/no sales tax. I'd love to hear of a lower priced place. I've never had any problems in my purchases from them - others have reported that they stand behind the merchandise.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

<I>I've got a "Stanley 12-960 Contractor Grade Low Angle Block Plane". I use it (and a little teeny plane) to take the sharp edges off of stuff and to give me a little clearance on cabinet door edges and face frame edge and such.</I>

Do you plan to do more than this? Are you willing to try out a different plane?

If all you plan to do is ease edges, then what you already have is sufficient. Add a decent aftermarket blade and you are set. You really will not gain much benefit from a more expensive block plane, other than the pleasure of owning and using it. The job you are doing does notr demand a "performance" tool.

On the other hand, I would not use a block plane as my first choice to plane down door edges (for clearance). I would be looking at using a #4 or #5 bench plane. Probably the #5. This has a longer sole than the block plane and will make it easier to maintain a flat, square side on face grain. Get it second hand on eBay.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Personally, I went with Woodcraft.

[Michael Fross]

I, too, went with Woodcraft. I always seem to get a 25% off a single item every few months. Picked up my LN #7 for $300. No shipping, but I paid tax. Heck, I could probably get more for that on fleabay, not that I would ever sell it...

Head to woodcraft's website and sign up for their newsletter. That seemed to get me on their mailing list.

Regards,

Michael

[Kevin French]

Mark how about this.
Before you spend any money figure how to tune and use what you have. Once you know how to use it and decide it's a useful tool for your needs then buy something better.

Don't just throw money at it.

[George Symula]

I've got a "Stanley 12-960 Contractor Grade Low Angle Block Plane". I use it (and a little teeny plane) to take the sharp edges off of stuff and to give me a little clearance on cabinet door edges and face frame edge and such.
But, because of reading a Neander post the other day, I saw that my plane also has an adjustable mouth (is that what it's called?). I'm not really sure why this is there but that's a different thing.

My question is (finally), what difference would I see if I were to spend 3 to 4 times more money and get a Lee Valley or a Lie-Nielsen Low Angle Block plane? Isn't the business part of a plane just the blade? I realize that my ignorance is showing here but that's why I'm asking.

What do you get, other than a better looking plane, for the money? What and how are the better parts?

Thank you very much for any help and advice.


As to your planes "controls", the size of the mouth opening will control how fine a cut the plane will take. Unscrew the front knob by half turn or so, flip the silver arm to the side and the front of the plane will open or close. The knob on the back of the plane will move the blade in or out. By moving both of these two "controls" in concert, (trial and error) it's possible to regulate how shallow or deep the cut becomes.

Lot of people seem to be pushing you towards $150 blocks and they will provide a "better" cut but for your application it seems like overkill to me. In addition, until you learn how to maintain, (sharpen, maybe flatten because some of my experiences with the high end planes have not been as simple as some would have you believe), and certainly operate the 60 1/2 you have, a more expesive tool will not solve your problem.

I have 4 block planes, all Stanleys, 2 - 60 1/2s, a 9 1/2 and a 15 all of which are always on my bench. The 60 1/2s, are American made and purchased in the late '70's for $20 each. They have slightly different sets for end grain work and depending on the piece of wood, I reach for one or the other. It took me less than 20 minutes for each of the four planes to flatten, sharpen, set and begin to take fine shavings with the stock blades. I simply don't understand the angst over flattening the small sole on a block plane. The 9 1/2 and 15 with their higher beds I use for face grain or any non edge grain apps. They cost me about $30 each. The point being that for about $100 I have 4 planes that I can apply to different situations and.....I have never felt that it was necessary for me to have a "better" block plane to complete my project. By the way, I have tried most of the LN offerings at several shows and while they were pretty and did a good job, not enough to convince me to drop the plastic on the counter. Now smoothers are a completely different story.......

So my advice.....learn how to get the best out of what you have....and than if it does not perform to your expectations, buy an LV or LN... or since you have already invested in the basic plane, a replacement blade.

George S

[Mark Rios]

Well, after reading all the the very good advice and opinions (thank you all VERY much), I think that I need to learn (actually learn) more about a plane and about plane sharpening. Then, I'll get a LN as a present to myself. :D

So.....any books or classes that you folks recommend for this? I have waterstones but only a crappy Stanley sharpening jig. Is the Veritas sharpening jig and it's accessories the cat's meow or is there a more reliable/accurate sharpening tool? (Im very familiar with the Scary Sharp concept and methods)

What do I need?

Thanks again for the GREAT help.

[George Symula]

Well, after reading all the the very good advice and opinions (thank you all VERY much), I think that I need to learn (actually learn) more about a plane and about plane sharpening. Then, I'll get a LN as a present to myself. :D

So.....any books or classes that you folks recommend for this? I have waterstones but only a crappy Stanley sharpening jig. Is the Veritas sharpening jig and it's accessories the cat's meow or is there a more reliable/accurate sharpening tool? (Im very familiar with the Scary Sharp concept and methods)

What do I need?

Thanks again for the GREAT help.

I feel very comfortable in recommending the Veritas Mark ll. Depending on your plans for a smoother you might want to consider the camber assembly as well. For $19.50 I'd definitely get it.....

George S

[Mark Rios]

I feel very comfortable in recommending the Veritas Mark ll. Depending on your plans for a smoother you might want to consider the camber assembly as well. For $19.50 I'd definitely get it.....

George S


Well, first I'd have to find out what a smoother is............... :D

Is this book on handplanes any good?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561587125/qid=1151780051/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-3173667-8997509?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[George Symula]

Well, first I'd have to find out what a smoother is............... :D

Is this book on handplanes any good?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561587125/qid=1151780051/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-3173667-8997509?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Mark, never read it, but I can recommend Garrett Hack's, "The Handplane Book". My guess is that it won't take you too long to discover what a smoother is......http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

George S

[Ian Smith]

Mark,

Patrick Leach's "Blood and Gore (http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html)" is a good place to get an introduction to the different types of planes. It focuses solely on the Stanley line of planes but then so to do lots of others. For example, the numbering of Lie-Nielsen planes follows the numbering system originally introduced by Stanley.