LN Plane which one ? #4 or #8

[Seth Poorman]

Hey Guys Im gonna buy a LN Plane .
This will be my first plane and I cant make up my mind which one to buy.
Ive been wood working for years now and I cant wait to buy one any longer.....Im getting ready to start a computer Table and Id like to have one of these planes.......? #4 smoother bronze or a #8 Jointer ?
Thanks for your input.....Seth...

[Larry Cooke]

Seth,

I'm no expert but my first was a #4, in fact I just got it today. It's not an LN though :(. Might want to ask this in the Neanderthal area, I'm betting they'll take good care of you there.

Of course they'll tell you to get both! :D

Larry

[Mike Henderson]

If this is your first plane - not your first LN plane - I'd buy the #4. Most people don't use a long plane that much.

And if you don't have any planes at all, I'd recommend the LN low angle block plane as a first purchase - or the Lee Valley - I don't want to start that argument over again.

A lot depends on what kind of work you're doing, but when I first started, I bought long clamps (50 inch) and big planes. Now, I mostly use short clamps (12 and 24 inch) and small planes (block and maybe #3 and #4).

Mike

[Seth Poorman]

Mike
I should have stated it differently, sorry , My first LN plane, I do have shoulder planes and low angle block planes, but thats all I have.....

[Mike Henderson]

Buy the #4. But let me offer an additional option. Stanley Bailey #4 planes are very reasonable on EBay. Just buy an older one - one with a keyhole hole on the lever cap and not one with the kidney shaped hole. You'll have to fiddle with the Bailey a bit more (compared to the LN) but it's an excellent first plane. Then, if you find that you use the plane a lot, go ahead and buy the LN and sell the Bailey on EBay - you'll get your money back.

You can buy a lot of Baileys for the price of one LN. Most of my planes are Baileys - I only have a few LN and LV planes. But it all depends on what you want to do.

Mike

[Larry Cooke]

Seth, excuse me for interrupting your post. I need to ask Mike a question...


Just buy an older one - one with a keyhole hole on the lever cap and not one with the kidney shaped hole.Mike,

Why do you suggest the one with a keyhole versus the kidney shaped one? The plane I got today is a #4 Bailey with the kidney shaped hole. Now wondering if I went wrong...

Thanks,

Larry

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I'm going to be selling off (but am not yet ready to do so) my older planes as I replace them with Lie-Nielsen ones -- I'm just that impressed with them.

If you don't have any bench planes, I'd get the #4 first, a #7 or #8 second.

Rob Cosman has the suggestion of getting an older #5 or #5-1/2 (or scrub plane if you use that instead) and putting the $ into the jointer and smoother.

[Mike Henderson]

Larry, Stanley's quality tended to slip in the later years. I forget the date when the change occurred from the keyhole to the kidney shaped hole but the kidney hole planes were the more recent ones. I certainly do not want to imply that all the kidney hole planes are inferior but I was searching for a quick and easy way to tell Seth how to choose an older plane.

I believe, based on a limited amount of data, that a Stanley plane made prior to about 1940 is a better plane. I think the kidney hole came in sometime in the 30's but I don't remember exactly when.

[back to Seth] And to follow up on Deirdre's suggestion, unless you're going to really go all hand tools, I would bet that you'll do all your stock preparation, including jointing, with power tools. That's why I don't suggest purchasing long planes until you're sure of what you want to do. Most woodworkers, except real Neanders, never use their long planes. If you really want to purchase a long plane, I'd especially recommend that you purchase a Bailey initially. If you find you really like preparing stock by hand, then purchase a long LN. But (my opinion) stock preparation by hand is horrible work. It's physically difficult, takes a long time, and the results are often not as precise as you can get with power tools in just a few minutes.

Mike

[Larry Cooke]

I believe, based on a limited amount of data, that a Stanley plane made prior to about 1940 is a better plane. I think the kidney hole came in sometime in the 30's but I don't remember exactly when.Mike,

My good luck as usual, well I'm going to play around with this one and see what I can or can't do with it. Didn't spend a lot so it will serve as another step in my learning process.

Thanks,

Larry

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Oh, yeah, I'm a real neander. Only own human-powered jointer/planer. My side of the garage literally has no power -- I have to run an extension to another breaker if I want so much as a light.

Mike's point is quite relevant. Unless you're either hand-flattening boards or cleaning up after a jointer on long boards, I don't think you need a #7 or #8, and probably not a #5 or #6 either.

A smoother (e.g. a #4 or #4-1/2) is quite nice for cleaning up the little ridges left after a jointer or planer, though.

[chris del]

If your question is black and white, (#4 or #8) the only logical answer is the #4.
I would think that in a very high percentage of shops the #4 is used much more often than the jointer.....Afterall, most of us have long bed powered jointers, dont we?
Personally, if the woodworking you are doing contains many large panels (like tables, cabintry) I would consider the 4 1/2.....
If your heart is still set on buying a jointer plane afterwards, consider the Lee-Valley #7 bevel up.... I would much rather see you spending $250.00 on a very occasional user, compared to $600 for the LN #8.

I own the LN #4 bronze, #4 1/2 and the LV #7 bevel up. All are quality products.

[Tyler Howell]

As P. said, old Bailey's are reasonable and plentiful. I'd get out and do some rust hunting for a great education and good time.
I did the flea markets, antique shops and shows talked to the owners and told them I was a noobie. They fell all over themselves to help me out.
Lots of great informatation, some not so great but a wonderful education just the same.

I will admit the lights came on and the sun shined when I bought my first LN 102. Boy what a plane. But I wouldn't trade my rust hunting adventures and looking forward to more.







Buy the #4. But let me offer an additional option. Stanley Bailey #4 planes are very reasonable on EBay. Just buy an older one - one with a keyhole hole on the lever cap and not one with the kidney shaped hole. You'll have to fiddle with the Bailey a bit more (compared to the LN) but it's an excellent first plane. Then, if you find that you use the plane a lot, go ahead and buy the LN and sell the Bailey on EBay - you'll get your money back.

You can buy a lot of Baileys for the price of one LN. Most of my planes are Baileys - I only have a few LN and LV planes. But it all depends on what you want to do.

Mike

[Harry Goodwin]

I agree with the smaller planes and if you watch anteque tools the number of 8's are nearly all new because their owners didn't use them a lot. The smaller planes all look used or abused. Harry

[Hank Knight]

Seth, I agree with the advice you've gotten. By all means, go for the #4 instead of the #8. You will get much more use out of it than you will a #8. If you still want a long plane, I agree with looking for a used Stanley. I have three jointers: one ECE Primus woodie, a Bailey #7 and a Bedrock #607. My Bailey works better than the other two and it only cost me about $40. I find the woodie heavy and awkward to use. I've fiddled with the Bedrock 607 and even replaced the blade and chipbreaker with LNs, but I still reach for the Bailey when I need a jointer - which is not often. I'm sure a LN #8 would out perform all of them; but, in my book, the little use it would get in my shop doesn't come close to justifying the cost. On the other hand, If I didn't already have several #4s, I'd but a LN bronze #4 in a heartbeat. In fact I've seriously considered buying one anyway - LNs are wonderful planes.

My $.02.

Hank

[Jerry White]

Seth, to me the #4 bench plane is a daily user. I have about three old Stanleys as well as a bronze LN #4. They all feel good to my hand, but there is no question that the LN is head and sholders the best tool. I use the Stanleys for utility tasks and save the LN for fine work. I also have a LN #8 and believe me they don't come any finer. I love to use it! But it was a luxury purchase, sort of a gift to myself and it gets used much less than the #4's.

I think you will get more use over time out of the #4, so that is the one I would recommend for now. I say "for now", because I would not be surprised to someday hear that you have both....:)

[Seth Poorman]

Thanks Guys
All your input has been vary helpful...Im going to take your advise and go w/ the #4. Besides if I go LN I could only afford one of them anyway..:(
I will think about the stanley or LN, but really like the LNs.Every time I
go into WCs I check out the LNs they look and feel so good in your hands,
and the blades look superior to others...!

[Jerry White]

Seth, I think you have made a wise decision with the LN #4. You are exactly right on the blade being better, and there are a lot of other enhancements on the LN too. I think the LN comes out of the box a better plane than the standard Stanley can be, even after the Stanley is tuned up.

Let us know how you like it.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Thanks Guys
All your input has been vary helpful...Im going to take your advise and go w/ the #4. Besides if I go LN I could only afford one of them anyway..:(

That's what I said, but now I have several....

[Seth Poorman]

Im going w/ the smooth bottom.......Not corrugated.
Anyone use corrugated??? for any reason..?

[Mike Henderson]

In my opinion, corrugated soles don't really make any difference. The original intent was to reduce the surface area in contact between the wood and the plane, which would, in theory, reduce the friction. In reality, the major force requirement is the cutting and not the friction between the wood and the sole.

Some collectors of old planes only collect planes with corrugated soles but that's just an affectation. I suppose it's a way of reducing the universe of planes they have to collect. Same thing with low knob Stanley planes.

I have a number of Stanley planes with corrugated soles but that's just because I think they look trick - not because I think they work better.

Enjoy your new acquisition.

Mike

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

My opinion: corrugated soles just give rust another place to gather. Supposedly they help in softwoods. That said, I like my 4C.

[Seth Poorman]

Well , I moved ahead and ordered the LN #4 smoother, cant wait to try it out on the computer table that im building for my wife.
I will let you guys know how it works after I use it for a day or two.

cheers

[Maurice Metzger]

Seth, I'm sure a LN plane works well right out of the box (I don't own one), but you probably want to round off the outer edges of the blade before using it - that will prevent lines from showing up in your work.

And the two words I always forget until it's too late - "test cut"! Once you think you've got the blade adjusted to where you want it (try for a black line the width of a hair showing evenly across the bottom when you look at it from the end) try it out on some scrap before you use it on your computer table.

Maurice

[Ian Smith]

You could go with the Limited Edition bronze 4-1/2.:)

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=4_5bronze

[Seth Poorman]

I know, I did think about 4 1/2 LE but they are not availible just yet.

[Dan Evans]

I'm a little late in posting this but I agree on the L-N decision and the smoother. The Bronze # 4 is a honey but you might also consider the 4 1/2 which is slightly wider 2 3/8" blade versus 2" is is heavier and longer. I have both and go for the 4 1/2 when smothing wider planks and panels.

Another question you need to decide is what pitch do you want; L-N gives you a choice. I would go with the Standard pitch of 45 degrees which will handle most hardwoods. The York or 50 degree pitch reduces tear out but is more diffulcult to cut.

good luck and have patience. Learning to use a hand plane can be frustrating at first but keep trying. There are some great vidoes to help you. L-N has some great ones.

[Seth Poorman]

Hey guys
My LN #4 finally came via UPS..:)
Before using it I made sure that everything was set correctly:
1: chipbreaker to cutting edge is about 1/32".
2: mouth adjusted to 1/16".
3:about a half a hair black line on the blade. (depth)
Cuts good on edge of boards (poplar) (white oak) see pics...thinner than paper.
But when I try to smooth a wide board (full 2" of cut) on white oak table top it just grabs or skips or chatter, I dont know if I can set the blade any thinner.? Blade is vary sharp......?

[Roy Wall]

Seth,

congrats on a beautiful tool!!

Although you're cutting right out of the box, you will need to sharpen the blade to get excellent results.

With a sharp blade, you can may light , fluffy cuts that basically break apart they are so thin.

Your blade has a 25* bevel, LN suggest you hone the edge to 30* with a 1000 grit stone, remove the burr on a 8000 stone, reset to create a microbevel of about 2 more degrees - and hone on the 8000.

You will see these bevels as very bright and shiney.....the microbevel on the 8000 will just need to be a sliver of about 1/32 or so....

then you can flatten the back of the iron just at the cutting edge using the "David Charlesworth Ruler Trick"....on the 8000 stone.

When you can shave the hair on your forearm its sharp!

Also, a little paraffin wax on the sole of the planes make them glide easy.

You should be able to find the "charlesworth trick" on google.....or go to the LN site for some info they may have...

Looking good!!

PS - this is just one way to sharpen.......it's what I've observed from the LN folks at the WWing shows over the last few years....its simple and works for me... but there are many, many options...

[Corvin Alstot]

Hey guys
My LN #4 finally came via UPS..
But when I try to smooth a wide board (full 2" of cut) on white oak table
top it just grabs or skips or chatter, I dont know if I can set the blade any
thinner.? Blade is vary sharp......?
Roy is correct. The blade needs to be sharp. You will also need to polish
the back side of the blade (at least the bottom 1"). Once the blade is
sharp (you can use a variety of techniques, I started with Scary sharp
iniitially but now I use Norton waterstones) the blade need only extent out
of the plane just enough until it starts cutting. A deep cut can cause the
plane to stop or chatter. I also have the blade just a hairs width behind
the mouths opening. If the plane is still not behaving I then will look at
tuning the whole plane including flatting the plane bottom.

[Jerry White]

Seth, I think you have received good advice from Roy and Corvin. The Lie-Nielsen planes cut reasonably well out of the box and that gives you the advantage of a good plane that is useable. However, for best operation LN recommends additional honing of the blade. Also, there are other variables that you will pick up on as you gain experience. For instance, even though you are getting thin shavings along the edge of the board, you might want to experiment with backing off for a finer cut when planing on the face. Also, try face planing in the opposite direction to what you initially tried, as the ease of cut is usually sensitive to the grain direction. Another thing that comes to mind.... is the lever cap adjusted snugly. If I remember correctly, LN instructs you to back off on the lever cap screw. Possibly, you backed off too much? Good luck!!

[Ian Smith]

If you want to learn David Charlesworth's (Lie-Nielsen endorsed) methods for sharpening then you can just watch "The Woodworking Channel (http://www.thewoodworkingchannel.com/)". They often show little clips of David Charlesworth explaining the different aspects of plane sharpening. I just had a quick look at their schedule and later on today David Charlesworth's ruler trick is getting a run, as is preparation of the back of your blade.

[Michael Pfau]

Seth, I bought the block plane first, then the rabbit plane, then the low angle jack, which is an outstanding plane I might add. I recently bought the chisel plane, and yesturday, my wife was in Spokane Washington, so I had her stop at Woodcraft, and she picked me up the small 102 block, which at midnight last night, I was in the shop planing!! I love them all, and over time I would love to own them all! I am waiting to get in the smoothers down the road, maybe the number 4 maybe. I also love the bronze over steel. Good luck, once you buy one..man you are in for it...:)

[Seth Poorman]

Ok Guys
I think my #4 is on the road to being one of my favorite planes.(Tools):D
I took the blade out and honed it lightly on the bevel w/ a ceramic ultra fine stone, "stropped" the blade bevel side and back.
I set the set screw a little tighter (someone mentioned that too) and backed the blade off a 1/4 of a hair or so..........WOW what a diff , this thing cuts the way I was dreaming about.....(Nice and fluffy 2" wide)
Thanks to all you guys Im on the road again w/ one less thing on my mind.
I want to thank each and every one of you..Seth..

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Yeah, I really need to take the #5-1/2 out for a ride tomorrow. Glad you like your new buddy.

[John Kain]

Buy the #4. But let me offer an additional option. Stanley Bailey #4 planes are very reasonable on EBay. Just buy an older one - one with a keyhole hole on the lever cap and not one with the kidney shaped hole. You'll have to fiddle with the Bailey a bit more (compared to the LN) but it's an excellent first plane. Then, if you find that you use the plane a lot, go ahead and buy the LN and sell the Bailey on EBay - you'll get your money back.

You can buy a lot of Baileys for the price of one LN. Most of my planes are Baileys - I only have a few LN and LV planes. But it all depends on what you want to do.

Mike

Absolutely. This is the plane I bought about a couple months ago and couldn't believe I worked without it. I'd seriously consider an LV plane for the price alone. I've touched LN planes but the mystic is sacrificed by the price at this point in my woodworking experience.