DNA drying test

[Joe Fisher]

This is something I've wanted to do for quite some time. Some of y'all may find it interesting.

I'm a skeptic and an engineer, so I had to test DNA drying for myself. I'm keeping a log of my actions here:

Link to my Log (http://www.fisherwoodcraft.com/dna_test.php)

I hope to update it daily, or at least as anything interesting happens.

-Joe

[Philip Duffy]

Dave Smith of Washing state spent 2 years developing the DNA process. I think it would have been appropriate to give him credit. His BLOG says it all. Philip

[Barbara Gill]

As any scientist knows, you cannot base any conclusions on a test involving only two subjects. Be careful how you make your conclusions. Dave bases his on a hugh number of "test subjects" over a long time.

I have used the denatured alcohol on about 50 bowls of different species including white oak burl and holly with wonderful success. I have even used it to shorten the drying time of 3" rounded blanks for rolling pins with complete success.

[Rob Bourgeois]

I mentioned this once...

DNA use to dry out tissue samples is a common method for preparing tissues for microscope slides...

The science is there so its not magic. IF you can take a hunk of rat liver and dehydrate it with alcohol and then put in a "wax" and then slice it thin for slides. Wood can be done too. Daves method works and is backed by sound scince in my opinion.

I just finished a slopping wet magnolia bowl( jim has it now). From rough turn to finished in 3 weeks...one of its "brother" pieces still has a green leaf attached to it. IT works and you will find this out....if you follow the directions and dont vary from them.

[Joe Fisher]

Dave Smith of Washing state spent 2 years developing the DNA process. I think it would have been appropriate to give him credit. His BLOG says it all. Philip
It is appropriate, and I did give him credit, along with a link to his blog. You may have missed it when you read the text at the link I provided.

I agree, 2 test subjects is hardly an exhaustive test. I never suggested this to be the be-all end-all test of DNA drying. It's just an experiment.

Everyone is so defensive about the DNA process, like I'm insulting their children. Please, relax. I'm just doing an experiement to satisfy my own curiosity, and I thought others would be interested. I know others use it with success, but I've never seen DNA tested against air drying, and I wanted to check it out.

-Joe

[Bernie Weishapl]

Joe I do a lot of boxes mainly and bowls. I have did the same thing with a experiment of air drying and DNA. I roughed turned 2 boxes of each of cherry, maple, walnut, osage orange and hickory. Out of the ones that air dried I lost the hickory, osage orange and cherry. Of those in the DNA which soaked for 24 hrs in DNA, I lost none. I also did the same thing with some bowls of Elm, Hickory, Cherry, and Maple. The Hickory, Cherry and Elm which were air dryed had to be turned down to about half the size becuase of cracks. The one's in the DNA had warped and moved but all were ok when finished. The other thing is with air drying it takes up to 6 months or so before it is dry. With the DNA I can turn the boxes in about 3 weeks.

Not getting defensive Joe just a note of what happened when I did my experiment. So it will be a DNA bath for all my turnings. Just my $1.298.

[Joe Fisher]

I'm glad you had positive results, Bernie. Your post is the first I've heard of anyone directly observing a DNA dried blank against a non-DNA dried one. I'm hopeful to have similar results, myself. Although I'll still air dry most of my bowls (I've got enough wood around to keep a steady supply of dried roughouts), it'll be nice to know I can DNA something if I need it in a hurry. And I won't wonder if it's voodoo, I'll know it works having tested it myself.

Besides, I like doing experiments :)

-Joe

[Bernie Weishapl]

I to wanted something that would work. The problem I have here is the most abundant tree is the cottonwood :mad: , then the Elm, then Ash, willow:mad:, some hackberry. We don't get much for fruit trees, maples, etc. Once in a while I do get some walnut but not much. So I buy a lot of my wood and can't afford to lose if I can help it. If I had a abundant supply then I wouldn't worry about it. I would just rough out a room full and if it cracked, oh well firewood.

Anyway just my experience Joe and reason for using it.

[Joe Fisher]

Anyway just my experience Joe and reason for using it.
Cool, and thanks for sharing. Like I said, I'm hopeful that my results will weigh in favor of the DNA. I'd like to try the same experiment with some wood that is very prone to splitting to see what the results are like. Although the silver maple I'm using now has some small checks radiating from the pith, so they may be good "worst-case" subjects.

-Joe

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bernie and Joe...............I think there's a certain amount of kharma or just plain good luck involved! I've had two oportunities to do similar things. I finish turned on cherry blank and DNAd the other. I rough turned one peach blank and finish turned the other. In both cases I had splits, cracks.....In my case......"It's the wood stupid!"........Too many people here and elsewhere have had excellent results using DNA but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear......If the wood is highly....I repeat highly predispositioined to cracking .....I believe it's going to happen anyway.......Joe.....I look forward to you test results! Bernie....I wish you continued success and end to my misfortune.....I've still got 3 gallons of DNA in a 5 gallon lidded bucket and will continue to use it!

[Dave Smith]

Ken,

Sorry to hear you had problems drying bowls using the alcohol process. If you would like to email or phone me(360-636-0721) I will try to help you. The worst things I have tried to dry are madrona and eucalyptus.

The madrona was rough turned too thick and soaked in a solution of about 50% alcohol. I show the bowls at presentations to make the point that bad things can happen. Then I show madrona bowls that were turned thinner and soaked in fresh alcohol. These bowls are fit for final turning.

Thanks to Joe Fisher for testing the alcohol drying process and sharing his results with everyone.

Dave Smith

Back to my alcohol still building in Longview, WA.

[Michael Stafford]

I use DNA for drying boxes as well. The only thing I can add is that I let them get a little drier than by using the DNA alone by stacking the box blanks that I have rough turned on a shelf above the hot water heater. Doing this seems to dry them more thoroughly and the drier box wood is the more stable it is. IMHO.

[Dennis Peacock]

The only thing I can add is that I let them get a little drier than by using the DNA alone by stacking the box blanks that I have rough turned on a shelf above the hot water heater. Doing this seems to dry them more thoroughly and the drier box wood is the more stable it is. IMHO.

NOW I've got a use for all that space above the LOML's waterheater!!!!! Thanks Big Mike...I'll tell Tracy that you said this and I'm adopting the space. Maybe I'll survive a complete sentence before I have to get up off the floor. :p :D

[Joe Fisher]

Morning all! The test subjects are closing in on equilibrium. The daily weight changes are approaching zero.

In this case, the DNA soak appears to have had no effect on the rate at which the wood dried. The DNA bowls and slabs are reaching equilibrium at the same time as the air-dried bowls and slabs, about 3 weeks.

We don't know anything yet about splitting or checking. I want to wait until all the samples have completely reached equlibrium.

The blanks are in a dehumidifed (35%) basement, and will be moved upstairs (where it should be drier) to continue drying.

http://www.fisherwoodcraft.com/dna_test.php

Standard DNA test disclaimer: This is not an exhaustive scientific test. This is two specific cases with a single species of wood. Please take it for what it is. I will be doing further testing with different species and thicknesses of wood to gather more data points.

-Joe

[Rob Bourgeois]

Joe
When will you check them for checks...most of us that use DNA take the paper off after 3-4 weeks and let the rough bowl sit on the shelf till we turn it. I think you can unwrap it now and get some pictures of the checks.

[Joe Fisher]

Rob,

Once they've reached equilibrium in the basement I'll unwrap them and take them upstairs. I'll be sure to post pictures.

-Joe

[Joe Fisher]

The cat's (and test subjects) out of the bag!

DNA Drying test link (http://www.fisherwoodcraft.com/dna_test.php)

So I'm open to suggestions for changes for the next test. Here's what I've come up with so far:

1. Thinner walls. Davis Smith tells me I should be using thinner walls to get the optimum results from DNA drying. I want to see if thinner walls will get optimum results from air drying as well.

2. A control bowl that doesn't get wrapped in paper. My hunch is the brown paper plays a huge role in preventing the checks. I'm curious to find out.

3. Larger diameter bowls. Accentuate any distortion present.

Your input is welcome!

-Joe

[Travis Stinson]

Joe, with the DNA, you can definitely get away with thinner walls. I was able to turn this Pear HF with 6 piths in it......all intact. And this Madrone burl HF, which can crack and split if you look at it wrong......not a single crack. I'm sold on using it.;)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=25105

[Rob Bourgeois]

Joe..
How wet was your test bowls before turning? How long were they from cutting? I went from living tree to bowl in 3 weeks with a magnolia bowl that Jim is the owner of. I am sold too.. BTW..the wood from teh other half cracked so bad during that time, it can only be used as fire wood.

[Joe Fisher]

How wet was your test bowls before turning? How long were they from cutting? I went from living tree to bowl in 3 weeks with a magnolia bowl that Jim is the owner of. I am sold too.. BTW..the wood from teh other half cracked so bad during that time, it can only be used as fire wood.
Wet enough that the rest of the log that I cut the slabs from split within hours of being liberated of its test subjects.

Did you use a similar approach to the one I used from David Smith's website? I.e. covering the outside of the bowl in brown paper? Was the other half that didn't make the bowl treated the same way as the bowl half, with the exception of the DNA, or was it just left out in the air?

Thanks for the testimonials. I've read many. I will incorporate some of the ideas in future tests.

-Joe