Infill planes equal big dollars

[Ken Garlock]

I just received this month's Popular Woodworking. I was browsing through it and found on p52 an article on Infill Planes. The editor reviewed several, and the most expensive cost $6000, yes a 6 with 3 zeros.:eek: All were well over $1000, with 2 to 3 thousand being a popular price range. I don't pretend to know much about planes, but these prices, to me, are outragous, and somewhere someone lost sight of the what the tool is supposed to do. If LV and LN can build a high quality plane for under $600, can a Karl Holtey A13 be10+ times better ($6000)? I understand that the LV and LN planes are not infill design, but 10X is a lot of difference.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not sure what (or who) the market is for those planes but I'm pretty sure it's not the professional woodworker. A professional woodworker would have to see a gain in productivy that would justify the extra cost and I don't think those planes are *that* much better than a LV/LN or even a used Bailey plane.

If there's anyone reading this thread who would purchase one of those infill planes, perhaps they can tell us why they would spend the extra money over a lower cost plane, like a LV/LN or used Bailey.

I certainly wouldn't purchase one - heck, I couldn't afford to purchase one. And if I did buy one, I wouldn't live long after my wife found out about it.

Mike

[John Downey]

A cheap little car will get you to work and the grocery store, yet there is still a market for luxury cars that cost 10x or more. Same sorta thing, IMHO.

John

[Brian Hale]

Also note in that article that the homemade plane that Krenov made performed as well as the $6k plane. When they pulled the blade out they found tape under the blade, supposdly the close the mouth up some. I'll bet that, with time and materials, it dosen't cost half as much as an Anant #4 smoother.

"The wood doesn't care" how much the plane cost. ;)

Brian :)

[Steve Wargo]

Having had the oportunity to use several infills by the manufacturers listed in PWW, I can honestly say this. Most of them work better than my finely tuned LN 4.5. Some of them work much better. An example: I recently had one of the manufacturer's of fine Infill planes at my home and had the oportunity to play with most of his planes. I had a nasty (and I mean nasty) piece of ash, we planed against the grain, and the surface was so perfect when held up to the light I could see the reflection of my shop cabinets. That's pretty darn good. My LN couldn't plane against the grain without tear-out. This plane did it with no effort. So are these planes worth 8-20 times more than an LN? I guess that depends on what you hope to achieve. Just my $.02. Anyone interested in more info... PM me.

[Javier Gonzalez]

Dereks Cohen's review of the Marcou BU handplane was interesting.
Those 2 infill afficionados that tested the Marcou BU and the LV BUS
claimed these new generation BUS were superior than their classic
infills.

[Mike Wenzloff]

There is always a market for finely made tools. There will alwys be.

The person who helped Schwarz to organize that event owns a few and actually uses them.

There was once when I actually made a decent living I put off owning one--now I wish that when I had that kind of discretionary money I would have bought some from a couple of those makers.

But just because I don't have the funds today doesn't mean I assume one who does isn't going to use them. Nor is it about simple performance. It's about beauty of craftsmanship as well. If someone has the money, why not.

A friend of mine drives a $75k car. He doesn't arrive any quicker to a destination than I do. He does enjoy his car differently than I do. I neither think he is silly nor wasteful, given his income level.

All that said, there are as Steve mentioned performance differences--just as there is a finely tuned Bailey and a LV or LN plane. Perhaps not as great a difference. But again, that's not the only issue.

Take care, Mike
back to cutting teeth in a saw with 19 ppi...

[Steve Wargo]

Mike,
I completely agree with you, and really didn't touch base on the Fit & Finish issue. The fact is that a plane that looks and feels great... LOOKS AND FEELS GREAT. The performance of the tool may be enhanced to the user by the mere fact that is beautiful to have to hold. It is an issue that I've always felt was important. While, I don't have a ton of discretionary money, as far as my woodworking business goes, I do have an infill plane on the way. There is more than just cost to look at in this issue. It is the pleasure that is received from the use of the tool as well.

[Don Naples]

The need to use of an infill plane in production work depends upon the work and the type of wood. I frequently use a standard 607 Bed Rock for shooting edges of boards. When I feel the slightest tear, I grab an infill plane and keep working without getting tear-out. I also have to plane cross grain in the production of one product we make. I only do this with an infill plane. The woods are Jatoba, Bubinga, African Mahogany, Honduras Mahogany, and common domestic woods including Pear, Walnut, and figured Hard Maple. Infill planes work well as there is little to no vibration in the plane iron, they have the weight to help make smooth movment of the plane. I have no doubt there are other solutions for planing dificult woods, but if you have something that works for you, you don't have to keep looking for an answer. Like any plane, keep them sharp. They are fun to use.

[Ken Garlock]

The first thing I thought of was the Cadillac vs the low end Chevy. Each does the job, but the Caddy is more fun to drive.

After reading the responses, I ask why doesn't someone(LV or LN) build an Infill plane that does not require a mortgage to buy it? It seems to me that both companies have the talent to master the mass production of the beast.

[Steve Wargo]

Ken,
Not to create a low blow here to anyone... but perhaps Shepherd Toolworks could answer that question. There is a bunch of time that goes into the construction of an infill plane. Even the Kits that were produced. By the time you add up a respectable hourly wage, your left with a costly investment.

[Javier Gonzalez]

Steve Knight's working on making a relatively inexpensive infill.Should be out soon.

[Pam Niedermayer]

If you're into getting a burnished surface with planes, I recommend getting into Japanese planes. They're not cheap, but much cheaper than the current crop of infills, and they're hand made. You do have to learn a lot, like how to shape the soles, but this knowledge pays off big.

Pam

[Brad Kimbrell]

The July/Aug 2006 Shop Notes has a few articles on working with metals and they have plans for an infill plane as well.

If some of you guys that may have seen the article would give some feedback, I would like to know if this sort of homemade plane would give any near as good performance as a commercially built one?

I thought that I might tackle it anyway just for the experience of cutting dovetails in metal.

What say you experienced guys out there?

[James Mittlefehldt]

To me the LN/LV's are Cadillacs, more expensive but highly capable. I would, I think equate those planes to Maserati's or Ferrari's much more expensive, and capable of doing the same things in a flashier style.

Would I buy one, assuming I could afford them, hard to say but I doubt very much that I would, my Presbyterian nature tends to balk at the extra $50. to $100 a LN, cost over the LV, so frankly I doubt I would pull the trigger on that one.

Funny thing Rob Lee said something rather cryptic in a post hereabouts the other day, something about covering the basic market and now maybe looking at the more decorative up market sort of tools, I have no idea what he was referring to so I guess we will have to wait. That is unless he shows us one of those concept drawings he has been known to splash around once in a while.

You have any idea MIke?

[Mike Henderson]

For those interested in making an infill plane, the book "Making and Modifying Woodworking Tools" by Jim Kingshott has a chapter on making an infill. Also, look at the bottom of http://home.xnet.com/~rcallen/kingshott.html
for some pointers to a bunch of sites that discuss making an infill plane.

Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

...Funny thing Rob Lee said something rather cryptic in a post hereabouts the other day, something about covering the basic market and now maybe looking at the more decorative up market sort of tools, I have no idea what he was referring to so I guess we will have to wait. That is unless he shows us one of those concept drawings he has been known to splash around once in a while.

You have any idea MIke?
I don't know if you meant me, James, but I get to wait and see what Rob Lee and Company come up with next too.

Take care, Mike
waiting...and waiting...and...

[Lee DeRaud]

Also note in that article that the homemade plane that Krenov made performed as well as the $6k plane. When they pulled the blade out they found tape under the blade, supposdly the close the mouth up some. I'll bet that, with time and materials, it dosen't cost half as much as an Anant #4 smoother.

"The wood doesn't care" how much the plane cost. ;) I hear what you're saying...then again, I wonder what a Krenov-made plane goes for on the collector market.:eek:

[Dan Forman]

For an appreciation of infills, read this. http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/haspc.shtml

The two top performers in this varied group of high quality planes were the only two infills. Both were bedded at 47.5 degrees, competing against others of up to 62.5 degrees. For ease of use, guess which one I'd rather push? By the way, one of the top two was made by our own Steve Knight.

For some reason, the only low angle plane was not tested with a high bevel angle blade. That would have been very interesting to see.

Then there is the sheer beauty of a finely crafted tool.

Dan

[James Mittlefehldt]

I don't know if you meant me, James, but I get to wait and see what Rob Lee and Company come up with next too.

Take care, Mike
waiting...and waiting...and...

Yes I did Mike I was hoping you might have seen a preproduction tool. Sigh, maybe Alf or Derek might have some insight here.

[Derek Cohen]

I like the term, "Gentleman Woodworker", which my friend Peter uses to describe himself. Many, if not most, of these high cost handplanes are destined for the Gentleman Woodworker. I just loved Peter's conclusion in his review of the Marcou smoother: <I>"Well, it is beautiful. It combines the best of new design with the tradition of the dovetailed infill planes of the late eighteenth century. It has heft, it has been lovingly hand machined, it says “pick me up and use me”. It is a plane to visit, take down and make a few gossamer shavings before retiring for the night. It is a plane about which to say to the progeny “someday this will be yours” (if you are good). It is a plane which, when acquired, will demonstrate once again that men are as romantic as women, and for that reason alone it was a bargain".</I>

As an aside, the high end planes are not all infills. There are the bevel up planes of Marcou and Holtey, and there are wooden planes, such as C&W. I do not view the infill, just to take one category, as having any special qualities that guarantee a superior performance. Rob Lee is fond of saying that the wood cannot tell the difference (between planes). In my mind, the determining factor is how well the blade is beded. But not to digress.

When I reviewed the Marcou smoother I had to decide on a way to gauge its performance. My opinion was, and remains, that for most woodworkers the performance of a LV BUS or a LN #4 1/2 would be as much as ever needed. In fact for most woodworkers even planes of this calibre are over-kill. So I chose to use these as a benchmark - that is, the Marcou had to perform at least as well as they did. I was not seeking to demonstrate that the Marcou was X times as good as these planes, just that it was good enough (there were some who did not understand this point and read the review as if it were a plane-off of the planes used). The point is that people buy high end planes like the Marcou and others for reasons other than planing performance. If you are even considering value for money, well you should not even bother to ask the price of admission. High end planes are as much about the aesthetic pleasures of using beautiful tools. These are art forms as much as tools.

Can one measure the upper end of performance? The LV BUS is a fine, fine plane. But is it not nearly as good as the Marcou smoother. I cannot measure this to prove this statement. It is my opinion based on subjective experiences, such as the amount of shine on the planed boards. I can plane into grain as easily as with it. I have spoken with another owner of this plane and this was his experience as well. I have no doubt that this result will be evident among other high end smoothers.

Will a high end smoother make me a better woodworker? No, don't be silly, nothing can do that - but one will put a silly grin on my face!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dan

The article you refer to was written by Lyn Mangiameli. It was a truly excellent examination of high angle planes. In many ways this article has served as a model for my own reviews. The reason why Lyn used the BU plane in low angle mode was, I suspect (I have not asked Lyn and am open to correction), that it was before the use of BU planes for high angle use. At that time they were only used in low angle mode. It is notable, indeed dramatic, the changes that took place over a few years.

Hi James

Mmm ... I do have an idea what LV are up to, but I am not able to say. I recall that Rob Lee has left hints here-and-there, so search them out. No doubt Rob will be happy to repeat them (he loves this game!).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alice Frampton]

Sigh, maybe Alf or Derek might have some insight here.
Might do.





But I'm not allowed to say. ;)

Cheers, Alf

[Ed Harrison]

I have decided to buy an infill smoother, to complement the Bailey, Bedrocks, woodies, etc, that I have.

The "gentleman woodworker" stuff is all hype to me. Pure hype.

I have decided to buy the Ray Isles infill smoother from Tools For Working Wood. There are several factors at work here. One: I implicitly trust the vendor. I've bought many things from the vendor and they know hand tools and deliver with a minimum of hype.

Two: the price is in the reasonable range.

Three: I trust the toolmaker. By reputation and evidence of other tools he has made (the Ray Isles mortise chisels are just absolutely perfect in every way).

Good luck, Ed

P.S. I am also buying some Clark and WIlliams planes from Tools For Working Wood.

[Robert Mayer]

You will typically see that the people who make those $6k planes do it because they love metal and woodworking. They enjoy the challenge of making dovetailed sides, etc. They arent in it just for the money because very few make big bucks doing it. IMO those planes are works of art due to the time and skill spent making them. Who cares what they are used for!:p

[Dan Evans]

ken,

No question the Infills are expensive but a well tuned one is a great joy to use. They have much more mass and they used very thick plane irons which greatly reduced tear out.Stanley developed the 4 1/2 to solve the mass addition. L/N has devolped much thicker plane irons than an old Stanley as do the Japanese planes.

I have a few of them, I am a admitted plane nut, and they wonderful to use. Are they better than the L/N? A little bit. I consder them quite a bit better then the Stanleys which I like bery much. I would say the very best smoothers are the infills and japanese.

As to cost, I agree I would never buy a Hotley. Go to the English or Scottish antique dealers and you can pick up a very good Norris or Spiers for under $500. They make excellent users if you ever want to sell one the market is great. The ones that the collecters grab up sell for over $1,000 and you might feel a litlle antsy using one of these.

Dan Evans

[Don Naples]

ken,

As to cost, I agree I would never buy a Hotley. Go to the English or Scottish antique dealers and you can pick up a very good Norris or Spiers for under $500. They make excellent users if you ever want to sell one the market is great. The ones that the collecters grab up sell for over $1,000 and you might feel a litlle antsy using one of these.

Dan Evans The non brand ones go for even less. These are often good user planes but don't command the high dollars as they don't have a famous brand name stamped on them. I recently sold a Scottish smooth plane that had a nice tight throat and a Mathieson iron. It works very well, but was not one I use daily, so it went to someone who will get more use from it.
Don

[Pam Niedermayer]

... I do not view the infill, just to take one category, as having any special qualities that guarantee a superior performance. Rob Lee is fond of saying that the wood cannot tell the difference (between planes)....

Never thought I'd find myself disagreeing with Rob, but wood clearly does tell the difference among planes. It cooperates or not depending on the plane setup and how planes are used, what the planes are made of and how the soles are shaped. It may not be able to care once it's lumber, but it does behave differently. :)

Pam

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

The actual quote I've read:

"The wood doesn't care whose plane it is, what it's made of, when it was made, who's holding it, what the blade's made from, how thick the blade is, or if it's bevel up or bevel down. If an appropriately sharp blade is presented at the correct angle, and is restrained from vibration, the wood will fail exactly the same way every time....."

[Pam Niedermayer]

Aha, Deidre, that I do agree with.

Thanks,
Pam

[Dan Evans]

Brad,

I went to a Plane building seminar at Ernei Conovers tought by the guys at Shepherd Tools. Filing dovetails is not that hard once you learn to angle the 15% which we do not do with wooden dovetails. Shepherd had a great idea to sell infills in kit form which were well done kits but they had alot of customer service problems and went out of business last year.

The planes do work very well and I have two that I use often. They made reproduction Spiers and added a Norris with the Norris Adjuster late inthier history. Carl Hotley is coming out with a Kit of one of his smoothers. I think the price is only two to three grand for the kit: I guess that is a steal when you consider a new one is $6,000. There is a company is Mesa Arizona with I believe also does kits that are pretty reasonable but I cannot remember the name. If i think of it I'll send it to you.

Dan

[Javier Gonzalez]

According to what Ian Deizel(who's involved with Holtey in marketing these new kits),
they will sell for around 700 USdollars.Wood infill not included.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Dan--St James Bay is the company in Arizona. Good people to do business with.
http://www.stjamesbaytoolco.com/

Take care, Mike

[Ken Bryant]

I've never tried an infill, so I have no opinion worth mentioning. I take issue in a general way, though, with the argument that goes "it should be 10x as good if it's 10x as expensive". There's a diminishing-returns-effect with many things we buy: twice as good, for example, might well be worth 10 times the money -- if I were buying a parachute, for example, or a chemotherapy.

I have no idea whether any particular infill plane will prove twice as good as my Lie-Nielsens (I have no idea how I'd even reduce that to numbers). But if I were convinced of "twice as good", I might well save my pennies for "ten times as expensive".

[Derek Cohen]

Ken

I think that most people accept the law of diminishing returns. I also stand by my earlier statements that the high end planes are bought more as art and for pleasure of use than for their ability to outperform lower cost tools. How many professional woodworkers would choose to use a Anderson or a Sauer or a Marcou plane because it will improve their productivity? I think that they would laugh at the very notion. I believe that these planes are purchased because of the pleasure of using them (or looking at them). Of course, they do need to perform very well, but as long as they obtain an acceptable standard of excellence, then it is all about pleasure. Hence planes for "The Gentleman Woodworker".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

I bought a plane from St. James Bay Tool company a while back. They're located in Mesa, AZ, one of the towns that make up the Phoenix area. I have a relative who lives in Phoenix so when I was visiting, I took the opportunity to visit the company.

St. James Bay Tool Company is quite a bit different than Lie-Nielsen. It's located in a relatively small building which is shared with another company who sells telescopes - they each have about half the building. I had the opportunity to meet Bob Howard who owns the business, and to visit the shop area. As far as I could tell, Bob and his wife Jill are the only people who work in the company. His shop has a number of metal working machines, most of which were the older non-CNC machines. Bob has all his casting done by other companies and lamented the difficulty of finding a company who would do the casting in small lots.

The delivery time on the plane I ordered was fairly long because Bob waits until he had a number of orders for a specific plane and runs them as a lot. I don't remember exactly but I think it was about two to three months between order and delivery.

The plane I bought works fine, but the finish is not what you would get on a Lie-Nielsen plane. The plane is bronze and anywhere it was not machined, the bronze is still rough and splattered from the casting.

Mike

[Clinton Findlay]

For the prices that Bob at St. James charges - I would not expect a 'perfect' finish.
I thought that he charges very reasonable prices - i.e. $100 for a Scrub plane... I'm not too sure how he managed to get the cost down to $100 - very well done.

I know that the patternmaking and mouldmaking charges for a cast plane is ridiculously expensive, more so when complex patterns (like for a shoulder plane) are made.
I would not expect that Bob sells as many planes as LN or LV, so his cost control must quite innovative. More power to him.

Theres a lot more work to an infill - costs mount up on machining and if the dovetails are hand finished theres a lot of labour costs.

After doing my sums and business models on both reproduction and 'innovative design' tools, I think St James is doing a fantastic job - far better than what I thought I could achieve.

I'm moving very far off the original topic, I know, however I guess what I would like to finish with is;
With the prices of the infills St James offers - if the finish is not 'perfect' then with a little time and effort spent by the owner then they will have a plane that should really cost them 3 times as much.

An example is the "Bronze Plane with Cocobolo Infill - $400".... to retail it at that price is amazing.

Besides - All planes are really just a kit :rolleyes: ...although you'd expect Holtley to be the exception.

[Steve knight]

The thing is with a metal plane your pretty much stuck with 45 degrees. So the only other choice has been scrapers or infills.
With higher angle planes out there infills are not as needed.
If someone could find a better way to bed irons on metal planes I think that they would improve by quite a bit.
But unless the wood is tricky you are not going to get the most out of a infill.
Now I am not saying infills are not cool but you have to decide if you really need one.
Even knowing why a infill does what it does has been debated quite a bit. Weight was one of the factors.
I do know weight can really help on difficult woods. Higher angle planes need more weight to keep up the momentum too.
When I finally decided to sell my user infill since I did not use it much since my planes were getting sanded I built a 60 degree coffin with extra weight it was about 6# the same as my infill. I did not like using such a high angle before because the plane always wanted to stop moving because of the resistance.
Once I tried that heavy plane on some purpleheart and saw it cut better then my infills I knew weight can really make a difference. But is not everything though.
Infills take a lot of time and effort to make and that really ends up costing a lot. Is the price worth it? Only the person that wants one can say. Is it really needed? I would say only when the wood is difficult. There are other choices now that will do as well or better at a lower cost.
But infills are a blast to use and play with there is no doubt about that.

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

Funny thing Rob Lee said something rather cryptic in a post hereabouts the other day, something about covering the basic market and now maybe looking at the more decorative up market sort of tools, I have no idea what he was referring to so I guess we will have to wait. That is unless he shows us one of those concept drawings he has been known to splash around once in a while.

You have any idea MIke?

Hi James...

Bite your tongue! Decorative tools....!:eek: :D

Ok - we are going to do some "premium" tools - but they too, will be new designs... not just a material switch, engraving, or some such thing. What we will be doing is removing the some of the cost restraints from our designers, which will open up different choices for materials, processes, and even finishes. We'll also work to much higher tolerances - despite the diminished returns of doing so...

The first tool is in early pre-production stages now... and almost every person who's seen it wants it...whether or not they already have one or more...

These will take drool to a completely new level....and without requiring a mortgage.... :rolleyes:


Cheers -

Rob

[tod evans]

Hi James...


These will take drool to a completely new level....and without requiring a mortgage.... :rolleyes:


Cheers -

Rob

pictures are in order rob!

[Rob Lee]

pictures are in order rob!

Tod -

Production is in order first....;)

We have to be sure we can execute as promised before slipping out the "spy shots"....:D

Right now, we have hand and functional models, with the most advanced version still living on a screen....

Oh - and I know we can have the sole flat to within .0002"...over the entire surface..... if we want to.:rolleyes:

Cheers -

Rob

[tod evans]

rob,
and we all know that any board planed to .0002 will of course remain that flat for about .02 seconds;) .
looking forward to seeing your creations. tod

[Mike Wenzloff]

I bow to the master of intrigue :D

Take care, Mike

[chris del]

Rob says that everyone that has seen this mystery tool wants one..... Id like to see it so that I can want one too!!!

Common Rob, You are the top guy for LV not NASA......show us!!!!!!!

Chris from Toronto Canada....

[Ken Garlock]

Pleased to hear of your forth coming products.:cool: It would be nice to give our friends at Brixxx Cxxx some competition at a more attractive price, for example.

Can't you hear the drops of drool falling all over the forum?;)

[Rob Lee]

Pleased to hear of your forth coming products.:cool: It would be nice to give our friends at Brixxx Cxxx some competition at a more attractive price, for example.

Can't you hear the drops of drool falling all over the forum?;)

Hi Ken -

BC's just in the same industry as we are.... our competition is really Apple, Sony, the Dallas Stars, and MGM etc. - those guys are all after the discretionary spending we'd like directed to woodworking.... ;)

Cheers -

Rob

[Mike Wenzloff]

BC's just in the same industry as we are.... our competition is really Apple, Sony, the Dallas Stars, and MGM etc. - those guys are all after the discretionary spending we'd like directed to woodworking....
There is a lot to that statment, Rob--and it's the truth. Evidence of thinking outside the box, so to speak.

Take care, Mike