PayPal – Is There a Concern?

[Bruce Page]

In Keith Outten’s thread “Blank Page Issue Is Intolerable - Let's Talk”, several people have commented that they hate or have misgivings about using PayPal. I’m wondering why that is. I have been using their service for several years now and I haven’t had any issues with them. This is not an endorsement of PayPal in any way – I’m just starting to wonder if I missed something that I should be concerned about. :confused:

[Lee DeRaud]

It's the Spawn of Ebay.:D :p

[Bob Childress]

Well, it may be the spawn of e-Bay but I like it a lot. It is the small businessman's debit card and credit card acceptance provider. I have been using it for years to both send and receive money, not only on the big auction site but also with my domain name registrar, certain foreign transactions, and of course SMC contributions. :)

IMHO it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I do not like writing checks any more and between on-line bill pay, debit cards, and PayPal, I only have to write maybe one every two months. I think it just comes down to everyone's comfort zone. Some folks don't trust on-line banking and some do. They can steal your checks out of your mailbox or they can hack into your account on-line. Either way it's a crap shoot.

(Plus, I save the postage:D )

[Glenn Clabo]

Bruce,
I just had this discussion with the guys in work today. I couldn't believe how some of them insisted that it was "totally" unsafe...based on stories they have heard or read on the internet. It maybe just not understanding how it works...but I think it's like many things nowadays...much of what you read and hear needs a VERY fine filter.
With some good sense used...I believe there are more safe guards on PayPal and online buying than there has ever been on any other forms used to buy things. It's much easier for someone to get the needed info when they have your credit card or check in their hand and if you only use cash...that wad you have to carry has no "50 dollar" limit. The only problem I've ever had was from a face to face credit card transaction in a store. The kid...and I know exactly who and when...had a nice new video game player within an hour of me leaving. He simply had a very good memory.

[Cecil Arnold]

Bruce, I've used pay pal in the past however I find that occasionally I now get phished by someone using a pay pal front. That makes me uncomfortable, since I don't use them very often, and find that I am sometimes pretty far into the scheme before I click that it is just that--a front to get information they shouldn't have. Because of that, I will only use pay pal if it is the only method to buy something I absolutely have to have.

[Art Mulder]

In Keith Outten’s thread “Blank Page Issue Is Intolerable - Let's Talk”, several people have commented that they hate or have misgivings about using PayPal. I’m wondering why that is.

Bruce,

To answer your question...

Over the years I have read several stories from people who have not been happy with dispute resolution process. In earlier years I have also read stories of people getting their accounts locked, and having great difficulty in getting them unlocked to get access to their own money that was in paypal accounts.

The main concern is that Paypal is not a bank, is not a credit card company, and as far as I know, it is therefore not under the same stringent rules and guidelines that thhose industries fall under.

Now, I admit I'm not current on some of this. Has this changed? Has paypal become more "like a bank" in terms of federal regulation? I don't know.

[Mark Rios]

Paypal started out as it's own internet business. Then, when so many people were using it for their Ebay transaction among alot of other ebusiness), the GIGANTIC EBAY saw it's potential and quicklly gobbled it up. Now, in the background, the resolution process, the handling of the money and everything else is governed by Ebay. Ebay's resolution process has always been lacking in the least and almost criminally negligent at the most.

That said, I've used them for a number of years as well and only have had one problem (knock on wood). It was back when they were NOT part of Ebay and they had some trouble with someone(s) getting some customers account info. This was before phishing became popular. It was more or less a hacking job. Anyway, my account was used to pay for something for around $85 (I was not the only one). It took only about a week from when I noticed it on my bank statement to when they had credited my account with the full amount. No trouble from them and all was well. I changed my password and they upgraded the encryption software and all was good.

I, for one, am not worried a bit about using Paypal for normal, regular, upstanding internet busines.

I don't know about just sending some woodworking forum money willy nilly though. :D :D :D :D Just teasing. Moneys already been sent.

[Joe Pelonio]

Paypal, like E-bay, are very successful and useful to a lot of people. That's why the scammers attack them. It's also why the spammers,
virus and adware hackers attack windows, and don't bother firefox or Macs as much.

I have been using Paypal as a buyer and seller for many years. Most recently I have used it for 50% advance payments on big orders from people out of state, as much as a couple thousand $. It's a lot faster than waiting for a check, and the fee is less than my credit card processor charges me, especially when I don't have the card here to swipe. The
transfers of money between PayPal and my business checking go within 1-2 days, also faster than credit card payments which may take 4. Other than a hoax PayPal e-mail once every week or two I have not had any
problems.

[Frank Fusco]

Pay Pal gives big business convenience to the little guy. I use frequently and like, it makes me money and provides a way to keep records. The phising issue is not PP's fault. Any e-mails that I receive from businesses I have sent a query to are automatically deleted without opening. Just opening a phish/scam e-mail can send a cookie telling the bad guys that your e-mail address is a good one and they, in turn, will sell you address to other cheats, thieves, liars, scammers, etc.

[skip coyne]

been a memeber for 6 years 4 months

FREE FOREVER anybody remeber that ?

that blatant lie was why they generated lot of distrust from the start

I use it but would jump at a chance for a alternitive . the problem is more for a seller than a buyer . buyer makes a complaint and they freeze the sellers funds , you tell your side they tell theirs and then some 19 year old makes a final binding descion.

like a lot of stuff its great untill ther is a problem then good luck getting it resolved resonably

[Bill Grumbine]

I started using PayPal when we released the first DVD about 18 months ago. It has worked very well for us. About eight months ago I was scammed, and I got caught. Someone "sent" me money in British pounds in an amount approximately equal to the amount of the DVD. I was tired and not thinking and clicked on a link, and lost almost $1000 out of my bank account. The people at PayPal replaced it within 24 hours. What more do I need to say?

Bill

[Michael Cody]

SOAPBOX ON:

I personally have used paypal for several years. I think the ones who put it down are ones who've never used it and read of a problem somewhere on the Internet. Knock-on-Wood I've not had a problem with them but have done thousands of transactions with them. I personally have to laugh w/pity at all the wannabe techno's who believe what they read on the Internet.. the ones who give their credit card number to a small business with a web site who could be anyone anywhere... then balk about using PayPal because they read somewhere it's a big bad place and not safe:eek: ... Then again (starting with CheckFree) I have been paying my bills online or via modem since 1986. I don't fret about it to much.

I also am a computer tech who puts in systems (AS400 & Kirchman) for banks all over the midwest (along with other industries). If you think banks are safe, you should try working in one sometime. If you did you would put your money in a jar and bury it. Don't get me started on checks and their risks!! Paypal is a safe as any transaction on the web and it's a whole lot more convenient. Is is perfect -- no it's not but then again Visa just lost a whole lot of personal info, citibank did, the US Gov did, ACH (automated clearing houses) who handle credit cards and checks did, and on and on and on and on ..... don't tell me paypal is any less safe than that. Remember there is federal regulation of Paypal while not the same as banks there is some, but then we all know how good federal regulation was in saving's & loans, pension funds, airlines, stock markets, energy companies, phone companies... yeah I am going to trust them to protect me;) !

SOAPBOX MODE OFF:

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I've been using PayPal since maybe around 2000...?

I've never had a problem, but I never ever answer any e-mails from anyone calling themselves "PayPal".

For me, being in Japan, it is a really useful tool.

Cheers!

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

So, at the beginning of the year, a bunch of people I know did business with a company on the web. Unfortunately, they'd been hacked for three months and didn't know it. I paid with PayPal -- and I was safe. A couple dozen other people, though, got their cards (and sometimes debit cards) used for a bunch of large transactions and then had to fight with the bank.

I've used PayPal for 6 years 26 days (May 29, 2000) for hundreds of transactions (and sold to 122 verified buyers). No problems.

[Christopher Pine]

I opened a paypal account during the boom of the .com time. They offered a free $5 to your account if you opened one. Ebay bought paypal many years later they did not spawn it. I think I am correct about that. Please don't attack me if I am wrong because I will be offended and I will have this post pulled so fast your head will spin!

:)

Chris

[Lee DeRaud]

Ebay bought paypal many years later they did not spawn it.I stand (well, sit anyway) corrected on that.:p

I'll admit it's not that I've ever had a problem with PayPal so much as I've never had any particular need for it:
for the things I do online, it just seems a bit redundant, sort of a solution in search of a problem.

(And of course there's that pesky connection with Ebay.:rolleyes: )

[Michael Cody]

I opened a paypal account during the boom of the .com time. They offered a free $5 to your account if you opened one. Ebay bought paypal many years later they did not spawn it. I think I am correct about that. Please don't attack me if I am wrong because I will be offended and I will have this post pulled so fast your head will spin!

:)

Chris

A little touchy maybe :) but right. I was one of those first 5$ guys. Even better if someone started an account and told Paypal you sent them, you got another 5$ too... it's not quite so hometowny now.. but I can't see that Ebay has seemed to hurt them. I am getting 4.37% or something on money I leave there ... which since I am selling several consignments over the next weeks, is good for me. It's as good as my money market account. For items under 25$ I only take paypal and have not experienced any real loss of sales that way either... quick and convenient. NO I DON'T WORK FOR PAYPAL EITHER :)

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Over the last 12 months I've had close to 50 emails telling me about errors in my PayPal account. I've gotten both at home and at work. You say, that's good--they are looking out for you. I think not so! You see, I have never had an account with PayPal. With someone trying this hard to scam me, you can be sure I never will have one either. Some say I'm silly to worry about it--nothing can happen. I feel I'm just cautious.

[Christopher Pine]

Over the last 12 months I've had close to 50 emails telling me about errors in my PayPal account. I've gotten both at home and at work. You say, that's good--they are looking out for you. I think not so! You see, I have never had an account with PayPal. With someone trying this hard to scam me, you can be sure I never will have one either. Some say I'm silly to worry about it--nothing can happen. I feel I'm just cautious.

Not to be offensive... but there are probably hundreds of thousands of divorces every day also ... does that mean your marriage is or all marriage is Bad?
These are just scammers trying to get your account info... Of whcih you evidently don't have so they are obviously just sending out mass emails. Have you ever received any similiar emails for visa or mastecard account stuff? I have... Doesn't mean anything about the visa or mastercard companies... I really don't care if you ever have a paypal account but just seems like folks who don't use them sure have a lot of information that I have never had issues with..

respectfully
Chris

[Tom Hintz]

My wife works in the on-line security division of a major national bank and checked out PayPal before we started using it. PayPal may have had problems years ago, in thier early life but now use the same exact systems the major banks and credit card companies do.
We have done thousands of transactions through PayPal and have yet to have a problem that is their fault. The biggest problem is people thinking PayPal will magically update their email address when they change it.....
As for the scams, I actually get more of them spoofing major credit cards and banks than PayPal. If a company has lots of customers, the phishers will be along sooner or later. The scams are identical, just the graphics and words in the emails look different to con the more gullible into offering up their personal info.
The biggest problem PayPal has is the Internet hysteria, which plagues other companies as well.

[Mike Sheppard]

In Keith Outten’s thread “Blank Page Issue Is Intolerable - Let's Talk”, several people have commented that they hate or have misgivings about using PayPal. I’m wondering why that is. I have been using their service for several years now and I haven’t had any issues with them. This is not an endorsement of PayPal in any way – I’m just starting to wonder if I missed something that I should be concerned about. :confused:

Bruce
I don't like Paypal becuse I have had a problem logging on with them (most likely more me than them) I sent a email and they never got back to me. So I just do not use or need them. Enough folks use them I am sure they work for them and would use it if I had to with no concerns.
Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

But it is not. Banks are ficuciaries.
They are governed by both state and federal law under the UCC. The UCC is a ver ywell developed system of laws.

Pay Pal falls under the aegis of Regulation E. Reg E is the wild west of financial regulation. Almost anything goes.

Pay pal has lost more of other people's money than anyone can know.

Pay Pal is regularly sued even by individuals and classes of people for mismanagement and loss of money that never belonged to them. Pay Pal usually always settles out of court with agreements that the parties won't speak of it.

The reason they settle is (A) they are dead wrong and they know it; and (B) they don't want anyone to know what they are doing - and doing it over and over and over.

[Jim Becker]

I have had zero issues with PayPal and find it comes in handy from time to time...like for donating to SMC. Or taking credit cards when I sell a tool or something.

[Steve Strickler]

Something everyone who posted here should read:
http://www.paypalwarning.com

[Frank Hagan]

Do you actually have experience with this company? I find this one especially troubling.

I would be suspicious of any business who puts up a website slamming a company and then providing an alternative to it. I did a whois search on "paypalwarning.com" and I found this:



Whois Record

Registrant:
PayPal Warning
Unit 1202 , Jiaozhou Rd.
Shanghai, Shanghai 200060
CN
86.21.6299.8446


I suspect the owner of this website is an affilliate of the merchant account they link to, and I doubt that the Cardservice people actually approve of this method of getting customers. I simply don't trust anyone in Russia, selected eastern block countries, or the far east in regards to business.

They link to a page that certainly looks authoritative, until you do some digging. Cardservice International is a well known American credit card processor. But even though the website "www.free-merchant.com" has the "Cardservice International" banner across the top, at the bottom they do have a disclaimer:

Promotional offers brought to you by Merchantane Inc.
Cardservice Agent #16738 is an independant agent for Cardservice International.

The whois information for "free-merchant.com" doesn't show a responsible party name, in violation of the ICANN rules. It lists simply "Webmaster" and a Hotmail email address:



Registrant:
Webmaster
17867 Thelma Ave
Jupiter, FL 33458
US
775 659-2848

Administrative Contact:
Support, Customer http://img.domaintools.com/email.pgif?md5=0831fd3c2f04f6cf6ca9823554681fe8 (http://whois.domaintools.com/domain-privacy/)


The "merchant account" they speak of does have some charges; $10 a month for a statement, 2.39% of the charge amount plus .25 per transaction, and a $19.95 per month "Payment Gateway Fee" that isn't mentioned anywhere else on their site other than in the definitions section, where they say "A payment gateway is a service that gives merchants the ability to perform real-time credit card authorizations from a web site over the Internet."

Assuming the statements are optional, you are still faced with a $19.95 per month fee, plus any minimums that are usually a part of a bank's merchant account (the cheapest I found require $250 a month in volume, or the equivalent in processing fees ... an additional $10 or $15, usually). I simply wouldn't trust this one unless you have someone with personal experience with them.

Paypal has millions of satisfied users, but caution is in order. I never have mroe than a few hundred dollars, max, at any time in a Paypal account. You don't have to have anything in it; you can have it withdraw money on an on-demand basis from your regular, FDIC insured checking or savings accounts.

[Dave Carey]

Paypal IS amazingly convenient, but I stopped using it for two reasons. Paypal kept hounding me for my banking information and would never explain why they needed that inasmuch as my account was secured by my credit card (and there had never been a payment problem.) The second reason was the spammers/scammers. I was getting half adozen a day. Yes I could recognize them and eliminate them, but it became onorous. I buy a fair amount of stuff (a technical term!) on eBay and have had no problem sending checks and for online merchants the credit card still works. As soon as I cancelled my Paypal account the spam stopped.

[Glenn Clabo]

Something everyone who posted here should read:
http://www.paypalwarning.com

As one of those...I repeat
"I couldn't believe how some of them insisted that it was "totally" unsafe...based on stories they have heard or read on the internet. It maybe just not understanding how it works...but I think it's like many things nowadays...much of what you read and hear needs a VERY fine filter."

[Chris Padilla]

I'll add my self to the list of happy PayPal users. Works wonderfully and is amazingly convenient for moving money around. I do not have a business or anything with it so it remains 100% free for me to use.

[Larry Conely]

I've been using PayPal for five years-or-so. Once, they billed me $500 incorrectly. I eventually got it cleared up, but I needed the help of my credit card company. I would NEVER give PayPal access to my checking account because I would have no recourse when they do it again.

Larry

[Bruce Benjamin]

I'm amazed at the number of comments about the Paypal phishing. I receive these too but I don't believe they have anything to do with me having a Paypal account. I sometimes use a computer that has a different ISP and email address than what I use for nearly everything, (My daughter's computer). It has nothing to do with Paypal in any way and it occasionally receives the same phishing emails. That tells me that my relationship with Paypal has nothing to do with the phishing emails. Most likely the phishers are either randomly generating the email addresses hoping that they'll get a bite or they're harvesting the addresses from internet sources where you've posted/used your email address. So many people who have computers have Paypal accounts that they figure the odds are good that they're going to hit at least a few suckers. I haven't used my Paypal account or Ebay for several months and I still receive the Paypal phishing emails. Does this mean that people are somehow hacking into Paypal or Ebay for my email address or that Paypal is selling my email address? Yeah, right. :rolleyes: Possibly the people I've done business with, (using my Paypal account for all of them) have sold my email address to the phishers as someone who uses Paypal. If they hacked directly into either Paypal or Ebay why wouldn't they just go right for my vital information instead of just adding me to a mass emailing list? I'm far from being an internet/computer whiz so I don't know all of the techniques used but I think plain logic would tell you that these have nothing to do with Paypal. But then again, my logic has been flawed before...

Regarding that anti-Paypal site, how can you believe anything they say when it's obviously linked to that other credit card site? It's just a tool they're using to scare people away from Paypal and into their business. I'm not saying that nobody has ever been damaged in some way by Paypal, but compared to the number of satisfied customers I doubt that their track record is as bad as that site wants you to believe. That site makes it sound like this is Paypal's SOP and that's how they supplement their legitimate income or that the people who make these decisions are evil idiots. Ever talk to someone on the phone about a credit card problem and feel like you're talking to a wall? Some are intelligent, some are idiots.

I'm working on a business that will primarily do business on Ebay and if I don't deal with Paypal I might as well not even bother with the business license fee. Good or bad, Paypal is a necessary element when doing business on Ebay other than buying only occasionally. There are so many large businesses on Ebay and I've done repeat business with a few of them. If they were having their accounts frozen and their money stolen would they still stay in business? If I end up having problems with Paypal in my Ebay store I sure won't stick around. Why would it be worth it? I suspect most businesses would think the same way as me. We'll see what happens but dealing with Paypal isn't my biggest concern.

Bruce

[Dennis Peacock]

Well...let's sum this up by saying:

Some folks like PayPal
Other folks don't like PayPal

This horse has already been beat to death. :D

[skip coyne]

can accross this , though it might be intersting to some

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/technology/14787729.ht

Google to take on eBay


SEARCH COMPANY EXPECTED TO LAUNCH ONLINE PAYMENTS AT END OF MONTH
By Elise Ackerman
Mercury News
<!-- begin body-content --> Google is expected to roll out an online payment system at the end of the month that will directly compete with eBay's PayPal, a Wall Street analyst said Friday.
After months of speculation, the arrival of GBuy would mark the beginning of a long-expected battle between two Silicon Valley giants whose collaboration helped the Internet to develop into a thriving commercial arena.
``It could be a game-changer,'' Jordan Rohan of RBC Capital Markets wrote in a note to clients on Friday morning.
Mountain View-based Google has raked in billions of dollars from merchants who find customers by purchasing ads on the top-ranked search engine. San Jose-based eBay, the most popular online marketplace, has been one of Google's best customers.
But as online commerce has matured and the two companies have sought to expand their audiences, they have begun to look like competitors. Google's GBuy would offer some of the same features as PayPal, which allows people to send and receive payments online and charges a transaction fee.
Last month, eBay announced an alliance with Yahoo, the most visited Internet site, that analysts said positioned the two Internet giants to better compete against Google. In the deal, Yahoo agreed to feature PayPal on its Web sites and eBay agreed to display Yahoo advertising.
Rohan said GBuy would be launched June 28. The service will let people who post items for sale on Google Base -- a giant online database of listings -- use GBuy to accept payment. In addition, small e-commerce sites could choose GBuy as a payment method.
Rohan said the service would be free at first and then would charge a per-transaction fee ranging from 1.5 percent to 2 percent, or slightly less than PayPal. PayPal has become popular with small merchants with scant credit history, who would have to pay more to accept credit card payments.
PayPal's sales were $335 million during the quarter that ended in March, 24 percent of eBay's total sales.
Google said Friday that it had nothing new to announce. ``Billing and payments have historically been a part of Google's advertising programs and online services,'' a company statement said.
Amanda Pires, a spokeswoman for PayPal, said the payments service has faced competition ``throughout our entire history.'' With 105 million accounts, ``we feel really good about our position,'' she said.
Google's leaders have repeatedly said they want to improve online search -- not compete with eBay as an online marketer.
But John Aiken, an analyst at Majestic Research, said the payment service would provide Google with data that would enable the Mountain View company to more accurately target ads to people who are ready to make a purchase.
By tracking online shoppers from the moment they start looking for something to buy to the moment they reach into their virtual wallets, Google will be able to figure out both the most propitious purchasing time and the most promising products, Aiken said.
``GBuy has the potential to be as important to Google as Google Maps or Google News, and there is very little that competitors can do to thwart its success,'' Aiken wrote.
Skip McGrath, an experienced eBay seller, said Google's initiative was good news for eBay merchants. ``EBay needs some competition,'' said McGrath, who has just published ``Titanium eBay: A Tactical Guide to Becoming a Millionaire PowerSeller.''
But Robert Holmes, a Los Angeles detective who has tracked intellectual property criminals on eBay and elsewhere, said Google shouldn't underestimate the challenges it would face in starting a payment system.
``Right now all Google is, is a conduit to other people's data. If you start branching into other people's money, you really are branching into something that is completely new and foreign,'' he said. ``It's a separate business. It's like running a bank

[Chris Padilla]

Sweet! Being a Silly-con Valley engineerd myself, I LOVE Google...ballsey company....

[skip coyne]

Sweet! Being a Silly-con Valley engineerd myself, I LOVE Google...ballsey company....

recently found out my son is interning with them and hopes to work for them when he graduates next year .

[Carl Crout]

I pay my Paypal bill with my credit card. IF their is a dispute, I can get the credit card company to reverse the charges. They will go after Paypal to get my money, whereas Paypal wants to charge me $25 to get the money from the Ebay buyer that tried to cheat me......

[Chris Padilla]

Carl,

I had a similiar incident with a purchase on eBay using PayPal. It was for under $25 and because of that, they (eBay) wouldn't do anything about it. The seller eventually signed off after ripping off several other folks. I've probably purchased 100 items of off eBay and this one was the only one that went south. Lost about $17 as I recall. Not too big a deal in the scheme of things....

I actually didn't even think about using PayPal to try and recoup costs....